3-Way Switches Suddenly Not Working Correctly

15 years ago

In my 15-year old home, two, 3-way switches in our kitchen suddenly began behaving strangely. The switches control the overhead florescent lights over the island in our kitchen. They are on a circuit controlled by a switch breaker. The circuit also includes the lights to a nearby bedroom and pantry.

My initial thought was that one of the switches had gone bad. One was relatively new from a kitchen remodeling a couple years back. The other was original, 15 years old. Both switches were replaced. My local Home Depot electrical dept. guy was sure that replacing the switches would solve the problem. It did not. The behavior remained the same.

Since this is a problem that occurred spontaneously after years of working correctly, I have to speculate that the problem is not the switches (just replaced) nor the wiring of the switches (as nothing had changed when the weird behavior started happening.) Help!!

Here's the wiring connections and behavior description.

Switch 1: (3 wires)

- Black Wire connected to Black Terminal

- Red Wire connected to Upper Left Brass Terminal (when viewed from front of switch)

- Black Wire connected to Upper Right Brass Terminal

Switch 2: (5 Wires)

- 3 Black Wires connected to Common Black Terminal (2 of these wires are really one wire with the insulation stripped with that wire going to the next switch in a 3-switch box)

- Red Wire connected to the Upper Left Brass Terminal

- Black Wire connected to Upper Right Brass Terminal

When Switch 2 is in the Up position, Switch 1 works correctly, Up = Lights On, Down = Lights Off.

When Switch 2 is in the Down position, the lights stay on regardless of the position of Switch 1.

Here's a little matrix that describes the behavior...

Switch 1 Position Switch 2 Position Lights

Up Up On

Down Up Off

Up Down On

Down Down On

Help! I've never seen anything like this before. I appreciate any help anyone can give me.

Featured Answer

normel

15 years ago

Look for white wires associated with the red and black wires that go to the brass screws. There should two in each switch box that are wirenutted together... probably pushed in the back of the box. Check these connections foe looseness.

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Comments (6)

joeplumb
15 years ago
Look at what you rewired. One of the switched is miswired. The carrier and the common are wrongly interchanged
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power -- switch -- wire to light power -- switch -- wire to other switch This is what he said he had doesn't mater what he said about the rest any electrician that knows what he is doing can easily make the 3-way work with these wires. Obviously your not an electrician joefixit. He does have the light and power in one box but there is also power in the other box. The only reason you need to use a 3 wire is to send the neutral to the other switch so it can send it to the light. Well he has a neutral at the switch with the light according to what he said above. So if you tie the neutral through to the light cap off the hot on that side and don't use it you now have the neutral you need at the light. Land the black wire coming from the light to the black screw on the switch that is the common for that switch. Now according to what he said there is a wire running between the switches, so there should be a black and white in that wire, those are the travelers you now have your neutral, travelers, and common over at the switch going to the light. On the other side you have the power and the wire to the other switch so now you cap off the neutral cause you don't need it now cause there is one already going to the light after you do what I said earlier, the black hot wire is your common and it goes to the black common screw on the switch now there will be two wires left, according to what he said they are going in between the two switches so the black and white that are left are your two travelers. If your so sure this is wrong tell me how, because there is now way possible to make this not work unless the wire he said that were there arnt actually there I'm just going off the info given
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What do things look like in the other switch box in the closet you are talking about? Harder to see is what wires enter and exit the box at the light. The simplest set-up for a home owner to deal with will have a single gang box with one non-dimming 3-way switch at each location, and just one (black/white/bare ground) cable and one (black/red/white/bare ground) cable in the box with the switch. The cable that contains the red should go from box to box and makes up the travelers. The black and red ends of this cable should land on the screws on the switch that are the same color as each other (usually not black). The other cable either comes from the panel (the feed in) or goes to the light (the feed out). Put the black from this cable under the unique colored screw (usually black and sometimes called the common or point). Splice together all of the white wires and use the bare ground to ground each other and the switch and the box if it's metal. If you have a different wire arrangement than this, (and there are several that are both different and correct), and if you have only a small amount of experience then you would probably be well served by hiring a pro. I personally can't recall ever seeing or installing a 3-way in a walk-in closet and the black conductor landed on the ground screw makes me think that you will end up hiring someone to sort this out. Good luck.
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The better (less confusing) way to check a switch is to disconnect it and test it with an ohm meter between the common and each of the traveler terminals. If you have continuity between the common and one traveler terminal when the switch is in one position, and between the common and the other traveler terminal when the switch is in the other position, then the switch is good. With the mtvhike method, it could still just be wired wrong. (Inconclusive) As you can see, there is more than one way that only one or zero terminals could be hot if it is wired wrong. Or even that all 3 terminals are hot.
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This is a double post. I answered the other one.
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texasredhead
15 years ago
3-way switches have a common and two travelers. You will notice there is a bronze screw on the lower right of the switch. That is where the common attaches. The common often is a seperate black wire in the box. The travelors are often a black and white or a black and red. Those usually enter the box on the same romex. The travelers are connected to the brass screws on the upper right hand and the upper left hand screws. It does not matter which traveler is attached to either screw. The important issue is to establish which wire is the common. Both switches must be wired the same.
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billhart
15 years ago
My theory is that one switch failed, and then you made a mistake when replacing the switches. The common terminal is in a different place on various switch designs. Texas is describing the most common one now in the stores but you need to go by screw color more than position.
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electricman
15 years ago
A lose neutral and the light would be flickering. IMHO it sounds like the switches were bad and you crossed a traveler with a common on the new 3ways. Also what is the wattage on the lights the 3 ways are controlling? You may have a 3way that is not enough watts for the lighting load. You may need 1000watt 3ways. I would count the bulbs and add up the wattage and see what the amount is to make sure your 3way can hack it 1st. Then try rewiring. If the light is coming on then its more than likely wired wrong.
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electricman
15 years ago
P.S. You really need a hotstick and can get one really cheap at lowes or a voltage meter would be great. Ok
***SWITCH 1***
Ok.. The romex at the 1st switch with just the Black/white /ground is the romex bringing in the power. So that black from that romex is your common. The white makes up in the back of the box(its just passing thru) doesnt make up to the 3way. The other romex with the Red wire in it (in the same box) that black and that red are your travelers. Hook those to the brass screws on the side.
***SWITCH 2***
The black wires you are talking about that are made into one is called a pigtail. That stripped wire is your common on that switch. Now take the red and the other black and those will be the travelers for that switch. They should work fine now.
Good luck to you.
MAKE SURE YOU GOT THE POWER OFF!! THE BREAKER!! ALSO REMEMBER THAT NEUTRAL (WHITE WIRE) MORE THAN LIKELY STILL HAS A LOAD ON IT SO TRY TO STAY AWAY FROM IT.

3-Way Switches Suddenly Not Working Correctly

normel

Comments (6)

joeplumb

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