I think things won't change. Run don't walk to the nearest exit. You can't "help," her or "save," her.

Your GF should start charging rent & bills, make up a chore list, and quit cleaning up after them. This isn't being cruel in this context, where there is apparently no real reason for them to be in the house taking such little responsibility for themselves. It's how it would be in any other adult situation where people share a dwelling, as in a room-mate situation. They'd be expected to pay rent & bills and do their share of upkeep. It is also simply making a decision as to what you & GF are not willing to do. Without having to be mean about it, this should be explained to them and to be more-than-fair they should be given a few months notice to look for jobs and get their act together. Preferably your GF should be the one to tell all this to them, esp. since you are not yet married and (I'm presuming) it's her house. It shoudl be done in steps so that she doesn't have to feel like she's being unreasonable (or be made to feel like that). She should be taking these steps regardless, whether you are in her life or not. They will likely not stay there too much longer when they know they have to pay rent.

If she doesn't want to do this (or at least some variation of it, or at least some partial compromise or some step toward it), you have every right to say "I am choosing not to be involved in this situation. I realize that I want to be in a relationship where I don't live with kids, especially older ones, who make absolutely no effort and have absolutely no responsibility in this household. When you're ready to start making changes in that situation, give me a call." Sad to have it come to that, but there is only so much you can do.

I suspect there is probably more to this story. There must have been something somewhere along the line to arouse such anger and spite in not one but both kids. And then on top of that for GF to be so overly accomodating in the face of such behavior points to guilt or a sense of deserving their wrath. Not saying GF *actually did* anything wrong (though that is a possibility), but perhaps she was abused in some way by her parents or an ex and expects to be treated like a doormat. Maybe she struggled with alcohol for a while, or felt like she didn't give them enough time/attention when they were younger and feels like it's her fault that they are so angry now. It doesn't necessarily mean that there was ONE BIG THING that was anyone's fault in particular, but there are deeper underlying issues here that need to be addressed, simultaneous with making the practical changes in the living situation. Growing up, a friend of mine and her sister were both positively hateful towards their mother, to the point where when I went over to visit I was increasingly shocked. As it turns out, their father had died in a freak accident a year before that, and they were unconsciously taking out their rage on their mother, who was (consciously or unconsciously) taking it because she somehow blamed herself for the dad's death. So this situation was no one's fault but b/c it was unaddressed, they were all miserable and blaming each other.

You're right. She's wrong.
And she's raised a couple of lousy thugs for offspring.
And you can't fix it.

All of which you know.

Trouble is, even if she were to change tomorrow and become the perfect parent, she's spent the last 20 years teaching them what they can get away with, and it'll take another 5+ (at least!) to undo the damage that's already been done. That is, if she were to change overnight and become the perfect parent.

Which she won't.

Cut your losses and run.

Aww, I was going to tell him to take her and run and save her from her kids.????

"I'am really starting to hate her kids."

If you feel this way, do everyone involved, including yourself, a favor and leave. Staying wouldn't do anyone any good.

Hate to say it, but I agree. She has made her bed by raising them to be the adults they are now . . . and they are adults. It is not likely they will change as long as she allows the behavior - not many people will suddenly leap from the couch and say "I've been a real lazy a$$ for the last 5 years. I'm going to be a decent person, get a job and be nice to my mom."
You have the choice of whether you want to get into the bed she made, or cut your loses and run. Personally, I think the later will be the best for you all. TOS, even though she isn't making the comment to be helpful but to make you into a bad guy with no valid reason to dislike your situation, is correct. Being there and hating it will just make you all even more miserable.

I wish you strength and luck.

I think OP should suggest his GF get counseling. This situation seems more extreme than ususal "entitled" kids. I wonder if there werent problems in the past. GF has to have help in understanding that she isnt doing the children any favors. It would be better for a counselor to help her with this.

No, I am not making him into the "bad guy." I think it is pretty straightforward - if you hate your girlfriends kids for any reason, you shouldn't stay around. It is likely that it is only going to get worse. It isn't fair to them to have to deal with a SO of their mother who hates them, it isn't fair to the mother to have a SO who hates her children, and he is going to become increasingly resentful.

Just as it isn't fair for him to have to share his home and life with disrespectful and lazy adults who are abusive to the woman he loves.

He sits there and watches this all, and still has his wife crying herself to sleep at night. This man has the patience of a saint.

OP, what would happen if you had to stand up and say, "Don't speak to your mother like that"?

And it isn't fair to HIM to have a GF who is an emotional wreck that doesn't really want his advice, or assistance.
These are not little kids, but adults and I wonder if she would expect him to sit there and watch as any other adult abused her? We would think he was a coward, but think he is wrong for not wanting to ignore this abuse, simply because they are her "children"?
If his GF truly loves him, and has opened her life to him, she either wants his help, or his shoulder to cry on. Sounds like the latter to me, and it isn't a good thing. I've had friends like this, who want to have my sympathy, but do not want any help to fix things. It gets old! It hurts to watch someone you care about being abused and then being treated like you're wrong when you try to help. If she wanted his help, she wouldn't get mad every time he gave her advice. It is normal for a parent to become defensive when someone points out their child's faults, however. She needs counseling to help her understand the difference between wanting to help her and attacking her children.
Obviously, there is a very serious problem, one that started a long time ago. These kids didn't just wake up one day and start abusing their mother. They learned it from someone, either a man in their life, their grandparents, or from her abusing them.
If GF will not at least seek counseling, then leaving is the only solution, unless OP enjoys the drama- which it sounds like he doesn't.

Dont speak to your mother like that, come on Diva, you know the answer to that...You are overstepping your boundry in the step parent family relationship PLUS the gangsta would probably give him a beatdown......

Unless GF gives OP the go ahead, anything he said would be ignored, and likely cause a fight between OP and his GF.

sal, a word of explanation:

theotherside *always* speaks for the "children".
No matter how horrible they behave, no matter how spoiled rotten, no matter what, she claims that children of a first marriage can do no wrong & that every adult in the situation should be sacrificed on the altar of keeping the children secure/protected/happy/spoiled/entitled.

If a teen-aged stepdaughter steals her stepmother's make-up & destroys her dressing area, tos asks what the stepmother did to make her mad!

tos, if OP had said his gf's, oh, I dunno...father? brother? uncle?...were acting this way, would you still say OP should leave if he hates that person "for any reason"?

or would you say he should encourage gf to get counselling to learn to disengage from an abusive relationship?

& if your response would be different, which I suspect it would, does that mean that you endorse domestic abuse only if it's at the hands of the victim's children & stepchildren?

In the case of someone being abusive, mentally or physically, to your partner/spouse ... absolutely. This is not 'overstepping the step-parent bounds'. This is someone saying, 'hang on, that's my wife'. Do you actually mean that his girlfriends adult daughter can hit her and he is expected not to 'cross the boundary' and not say/do anything?

I have great, well adjusted, polite and fun kids, AND s/kids, and they are all respectful towards me, but my teenage son had to step out of line only ONCE and my husband told him he will not speak to his mother like that again. And they have a very close relationship and a strong bond. I expect that of my husband, as every woman should, and he would expect the same from me.

We are not just parents. We are also a couple.

Of course, as mrsmaddog mentions above, this only works with the backing of the other person involved, otherwise it will backfire. And that seems to be the problem that the OP is having - his partner expects him to back off and let this continue because they're 'just kids', when actually she is enabling their dysfunctional, appalling ADULT behaviour towards their mother/his partner. And as long as she is doing that, he will continue feeling as he does now until eventually, as much as he clearly cares for her, he will leave.

"father? brother? uncle?.."

If they lived with the GF, as opposed to, say, half way across the country, yes, I would give the same advice.

Most mothers would not want to live with a guy who hates their children. It makes no difference WHY he hates the children - they are still her children, and the fact that he hates them is going to make the relationship between him and his GR untenable.

True TOS, but most mothers would not allow their children to become, and continue to be, abusive, insulting and obnoxious to them or anyone else. So this really isn't a situation where 'most mother' solutions apply. We all agree he shouldn't be there if he hates them. But can you really not admit that he may have some reasons for feeling this way?

22 and 19 are not kids and should not behave like kids.

GF is an enabler. 5 years of enabling would be enough to drive a person crazy, but 22 and 19 years?????? I don't see, honesly, how she could turn this around in time for you to stay in the relationship. You've probably already left emotionally. Unfortunately, I don't think there will be a solution for you other than leaving. But you should be really honest with her so she can get some counseling and have a chance at a relationship in the future.

Hay zooz!! Gonna have to begin each post with warning!!! sarcasm coming! !!!!No, figured there would be a blizzard of thats not your job posts for Mr Sal....My real advice for him would be....If GF is willing, MOVE and dont give Sks your new address.....They are adults now, if they love each other, try to begin anew away from them!!!!!!

It is irrelevant whether he has a reason to "hate" her children, or even dislike them. The point is that he does, and therefore he should be gone.

I think most mothers would not want to be with someone who hated their child even if said child were a serial killer. Few people would want to live with a serial killer, but that doesn't mean their mother would not still love him.

so is this hypothetical serial killer abusing his mother on a daily basis?

& do you really think that a victim of abuse is able to make rational decisions regarding her abuser?

They never are;
they always enable the abuser, because that's all they know.

I'm not saying sal should hang in there;
I know from experience that victims of abuse can take your good wishes & your help & turn them around to maintain the status quo with their abusers.

but I don't believe that anyone has to make a choice between abandoning one worthwhile person or accepting that person's abuser & tolerating (& thereby condoning) abusive behavior.

"Dont speak to your mother like that, come on Diva, you know the answer to that...You are overstepping your boundry in the step parent family relationship PLUS the gangsta would probably give him a beatdown...."

Sorry DOTZ, I disagree with you here. I did tell my SD that not long after we were living together. She was 6 or 7 and I heard her talking back to her dad. He was telling her to do something and she was arguing with him and I told her "What makes you think you can talk to your dad that way?" and she froze. Now, I know she was a little kid that isn't going to jump me, but she was used to daddy not stopping her from talking that way. I don't think it's overstepping bounds to say something. I did have a talk with DH later and told him if he allows her to talk that way now, it's only going to get worse. He's definitely stopped that behavior. He admitted that he thought if he ignored it, she would stop doing it. Nope.

My dad also told me how my step mom's adult son's would talk to her like that sometimes. They were about that age, late teens/early 20's. Now, my dad's a big guy and he also stepped in once and told them they are not going to talk to his wife that way. What kind of husband would stand by and let his wife be treated that way? The fact that OP has not said anything for 4 years is ridiculous. Yes, she created the monsters and she needs to choose, be a doormat for her monsters or be alone. They are not little kids and they don't get to be chosen automatically because they are her kids.

I've had similar problems with my kids. They have been disrespectful to my husband and sometimes with me. If I tolerated it, I wouldn't expect my husband to stay in the chaos. My boys are 19 & 21. I'm not going to allow them to break up my marriage. They are going to go out into the world and make their own life and I have a wonderful husband that I would lose if I didn't take a stance. I think it's different with boys because they see a new man as a rival and they may not want to see their mom with a man. Perhaps they act the way they do to see if they can make it miserable for mom's guy to be there and they want to run him off. What concerns me more is that mom allows it when it upsets her boyfriend/husband. It's one thing to bury your head in the sand when your kids act like that, but if you are going to lose the guy you love (especially a great guy), I would think that would motivate a person to change. She doesn't have to change her kids. They are grown and they are not going to change unless they want. She needs to show them the door until they do change. If they care about their relationship with her, they'll change.

OP, stay or go is your choice. But, your GF needs to choose what is more important to her too. She isn't doing these kids any favors if she chooses them and lets you go. She will be alone and they are still going to leave someday (hopefully) and they don't see that far into the future. They are not worried about HER happiness, only what they want now. It's really up to her to deal with them and if she chooses not to deal with it, then you don't have to stay.

these are not kids, they are adults. She is not even obligated to support them or live under one roof. And most women although would continue loving their serial killer son, would not want to live in the same household. I sure wouldn't.

I don't understand why these "kids" are allowed to be abusive. do they work, go to school? we are not talking about minor children. no matter how bad they are we have to protect them and support them in our household, but not 22 year olds! I was married and raising a family at that age, certainly was not a kid.

She can tell them they have 30 days to move out or straigten up. And yes OP has rights to tell them to not abuse their mother. They are not children, they are grown ups. Those "kids" rules don't apply here.

TOS nobody says she should not love her children. She can continue loving them by teaching them the common sense because apparently they don't have any. And even better she can love them while they live on their own. Not in the same household. I wonder if there is anyone else in the family who can show her how wrong it is because apparently she does not listen to her BF.

One child is only 19, and very few kids of that age are living on their own. Usually they are only sophomores in college. Most kids don't graduate from college until they are 22, especially now that so many schools have moved the kindergarten cutoff date to September 1st. Over sixty percent of kids move back home after college.

TOS of course I would not want 19-year-old living on her own. but these kids abuse their mother, it is a different story, they take advantage of her. they hit her and verbally abuse her. plus they say she is obligated to support them. not at 22, it is OK to help, but obligated? No one supported me at 22.

Theotherside said:
"One child is only 19, and very few kids of that age are living on their own. Usually they are only sophomores in college. Most kids don't graduate from college until they are 22, especially now that so many schools have moved the kindergarten cutoff date to September 1st. Over sixty percent of kids move back home after college."

Oh... then leave the kid alone then, right? He's ONLY 19. That means he can be a loaf? Poor baby... he's only a sophomore in college. Rules can't apply to him. He's too young to be on his own so let's put up with his BS instead of kick him out.

OKAY... back to planet EARTH theotherside.

They are 19 & 22 and OP says "They are extremely disrespectful to her. They curse her out, and insult her left and right. They do this in front of anyone. The girl has even gone as far as hitting her. They have even told her that they hate her and like to see her cry. They have told her that she is obligated to support them.. They do not help their mother with literally anything. They destroy the house and do not clean up any mess that they have made. They have no respect for anyone's personal things. They use things that do not even belong to them and either never put them back or destroy them. They spend the whole day in the house sleeping and going out at night."

Would you mind pointing out for the rest of us, where it says either of them are in college? Or working? C'mon, you want to argue they aren't old enough to be on their own and compare these two bums with college kids? GET A FRIGGIN CLUE!!!

Here's an idea:

Pack the poor babies up and send them to live with theotherside. She apparently lets kids do whatever they want and will put up with anything, as long as the kids are 'too young to be on their own.' HA

I just noticed that they sleep during the day and go out at night, I didn't see it before. I hoped that they at least are working and going to school. Not only they are disrespectful, but they also are complete bums. Who can afford sleep the whole day?

30 days notice: get your act together or move out.

in a way though it is mom's fault that 22 year old does not work and sleep all day. She did not teach her kids anything. so maybe she deserves this kind of attitude toward her and maybe they should stay wiht her and be a living proof of a poor parenting.

And BF should move on and look for somebody less messed up.

I cannot believe it, sleep all day and go out at night. Even if for whatever reason mom deserves such poor treatment (hypothetically) they still cannot be sleeping all day.

Dont know what happened to it, But I thought I posted last post was sarcastic Ima, No I m in agrreement with you...was expecting posters to come to LOAFS rescue LOL

Hmm - I wonder if the mother has a somewhat different perspective on this. It is interesting that the OP posted this and then disappeared. Why would you take everything he says at face value, especially when he bandies about absolutes like "never put them back" etc. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that they ARE college students, and they sleep till noon on Sunday.

One of my daughter's roommates was shocked when she used the word "damn" in a phone conversation with me - and it wasn't even directed at me - I think she was describing some inanimate object. One person's "cursing someone out" or "extremely disrespectful" is not necessarily another person's.

So now he must be lying because it's coming from him and not straight from the mothers mouth? How bizarre.

I think ANYONE would view an adult daughter hitting their mother as 'extremely disrespectful', let alone the other actions described. Sure, we're only hearing one side of the story here, (just like every other post, including yours), but it seems to me that the man came here genuinely looking for help and advice. Does he have to be the 'mother' in order to get that?

Dismissing him as a liar because he isn't is just appalling.

sorry dotz, I didn't pick up the sarcasm. But now, looking back, I do.

and it doesn't surprise me when a guy posts something and runs off when the women here start debating. It doesn't really matter what OUR perspective of OP's situation (whether his idea of disrespectful is the same as anyone else's) The fact is that he has a problem with the way they treat their mother and it's an issue that only the mother can deal with. He can accept things for what they are or he can leave. Those are the only solutions to the problem if his GF isn't going to make any changes. Maybe he was just venting...

we can never know if people here lie or misinterpret, we kind of have to take everything the way people say it. i have no ways to check if somebody's BM trully did not call for 2 months, or somebody's SKs trully got bad grades in
school etc. I just believe that what people say is most likely true, why question them? of cocurse maybe kids clean up once in awhile but it is besides the point.

Ouch, I had a kid that would sleep all day and go out all night, and it was MY fault, he would not listen to me..So I packed him up to move to his fathers and he has not forgiven me for that...However, he is wildly sucessful..Probably everyone on this board that has kids has some of his work in their home...Cold comfort to me that his dad had to straighten him out, but he did..I will give him that...

I agree with a lot of points here.

1. Assume OP was telling the truth -- no reason not too, nothing inconsistent. Probably just venting, but would take advice if he saw something relevant.

2. Teens and young adults are likely to bounce back before/during/after college. Maybe more likely in intact families.

3. Teens and young adults have a different internal clock. Difficult to deal with.

Dotz -- great with son.

Dotz, I'm dyin' of curiosity to know what your son does! I know you probably don't want to risk blowing your anonymity, but maybe you can give us a hint: is he an artist? children's author? toy designer?

I thought of something like designing hew models of refrigetators or dishwashers because we all have that.

Love isn't just an emotion. Loving a child doesn't mean tolerating any behavior simply because it is YOUR offspring. It is more UNloving to allow such garbage! What will happen to these kids when they act this way with a spouse or boss or their own children?????
As far as this being obligated to support them, or allow them to reside in the same house nonsense goes, even underaged kids can be and are taken out of their parents' home when they are abusive toward others in that home. If they cannot or will not change their behavior, they can be made wards of the state and be sent to youth homes. Of course, parents have to pay for their kids being in the system, but isn't that better than being abused or watching your spouse be abused?
So, if a minor child can be and should be removed from their parents' home for the safety and well-being of others, why is it so awful to evict an adult child for the same thing?
OP's GF could offer assistance financially, to lessen her inappropriate guilt, give them a deadline for when her assistance would end, and OP and GF could have safety and peace of mind.

TOS,
He is starting to hate her kids (which are not KIDS THEY ARE ADULTS!) becaue of the mental and physical abuse they do towards their own mother. Its unfortunate but she has raised 2 loser human beings.
THese are not children. She is the one that should take a stand for herself and throw them out! But she wont cause has raised them and probably believes she deserves their hate.
Salgado,
1. Tell your GF to seek professional counciling for herself because of the abuse. BUt she probably wont take it because she doesn't beleive her kids are doing anything wrong.
2. you cannot change this because the problem can only be fixed by yoru GF and she chooses not to. If she did she would have thrown these two out the door! I have a neighbour of mine who through out her own 14 years old daughter because of the same thing you are describing. Was she in pain doing this to her daughter , yes....was it the right thing to do...yes!
3. If you girlfriend does not stand up for herself and tellher kids to shape up or get out then you should leave. dont feel guilty. You love her but if she doesnt love herself and respect herself from the abuse of anyone..even her own kids then she cannot be saved. You cannot help her. And you cannot continue living this way.
Its a shame that a human being can be beaten down in such a manner like this over the years.
I do not know your GF past. But im sure it has alot to do with the upbringing of her two kids. She spoon feeds them and whatever they do they are angels.
Leave for your sake. And also try to get her some help. You never know things can change.

Dating is a weeding out process. If you don't like the situation, why stay in it any longer and let it go on? You are not married and therefore not obligated to the circumstances. If you aren't on the same page on a HUGE subject like this, what makes you think you'll be able to agree later?

I mostly agree, but if OP and this GF have only this one problem, which I doubt, what is so wrong about trying to fix the problem, before abandoning the relationship?
Obviously, OP and his GF aren't even reading the same book , much less on the same page.
OP cannot force GF to help herself.

KKNY, WHAT a surprise, thank you if that was sincere.It was a heartbreak what I had to do to assure he d stop disregarding me..Wish he was still home with me Sigh....Fine, LOL not dishwashers...Serenity LOL you were the closest, and also correct about being anon..I have had emails from kids as far away as JAPAN(boy those kids can hack)He is an artist/musician with a gold record(and he s only 25).....What I am most proudest of is he is no drink, no drugs , no smoking (and a vegan)LOL as a life long commitment...Geez he even had a ROOT CANAL drug free Ouch!!!!

I'm all for working things out. Especially when both parties see a problem and want to work towards a solution. But, it seems from the OP, that doesn't seem to be the case here. She doesn't seem at all interested in hearing him out or even recognizing there is a problem. Will she be that way with all oroblems in the future? Quite possibly.

IMO, the worst thing about this situation is that at the end of the day, the OP's GF is saying (with actions, if not words) that it is OK for him to be miserable but not for her kids to be miserable. It is as clear as a bell.