Hi Adrasta, I think since the kids are so young, and already well behaved, you should be able to make subtle changes without them even making too big of a fuss about it..Do you do the shopping? If you bought caffiene free soda, juice and bottled water, they ll drink it if they get thirsty enough, as in this ia all we have..And we dont have Friut Loops, we have Cheerios...No candy in the house, just granola bars for your lunch, I bought these because they were on sale, and I thought you ll like them....My DH also had a problem with letting his DS watch anything he wanted on TV, but I wasnt comfortable with that, so I d just get a suitable movie and say, oh I thought we d watch this, you will think this is so funny...And I refused to buy those bad video games he d ask for as gifts..My dh was good about it, no reason to compromise your morals in your own home...Not much you can do in their home, but my SS got used to my style....He never complained..He just rolled with the expectations here.....Good luck

Dotz had lots of great advice. I was wondering if you talked to your boyfriend about your thoughts? I think your thoughts are reasonable.

I have learned that the most important part of stepparenting is communicating with your spouse. You need to discuss these issues ahead of time so your on the same page and show the kids a united front.

As for your relationship, you have only been with your boyfriend for 6 months and he was only seperated from his high school sweetheart for 6 months prior to that. That did not give him much time to be on his own. Make sure to take things slow with him. Some guys who were in long term relationships have a tendancy to replace one woman with another because they don't want to be alone. Then they expect the new woman to take care of everything for them, including the kids. Not saying your boyfriend is not wonderful, just saying to keep your eyes open.

Any child psychologist knows that the answers you're wanting don't have anything to do with the questions you should be asking at this point.

This guy is in no position to ask any woman for a commitment, since he can't offer one himself;
he is unavailable to make a commitment, having failed to terminate his earlier commitment to the mother of his children.

Separated or not, he's married;
moving in with him will *not* make his children see you as a mother figure, it'll make them see you, rightly, as an interloper, & your future relationship with them will be miserable, as you know in your logical brain.

His wife will see you as the other woman *for the rest of your life*...& how can you argue it?

Why is he in such a rush?

there's no reason for you to do this to yourself, & I'd take another look at a "boyfriend" who wanted a (very convenient) stepmother/housekeeper/child care person before he's ended his marriage.

Froot loops & video games are at least a year or so down the road.

Take care of yourself today.

I wish you the best.

Sorry - But I'm with Sylvia here. You sound like a reasonable person, and will probably be a good mother and step-mother someday.

But not tomorrow.

Don't put yourself in a no-win situation by moving in with your BF before the ink on his divorce is even dry. In fact, I'd back way off -- at least visibly -- if you think this relationship is the one just to give it any chance of success. Because belive me, the taint of "the other woman" can stick for a long, long time. Even if it isn't fair.

Gently suggest small, gradual changes to your BF for the good of the children, but be careful not to fall into the "expert" role lest you be resented. BF needs to feel himself a "competent parent" so he won't be so easily guilt-tripped.

As usual, I'm sitting with Sweeby in her boat.
I think it's wonderful that you can identify things to improve these children's lives, but you need to let their father be the one to make these changes. A suggestion is fine, or better yet, let him think he came up with the idea with a few well placed hints.

More important right now truly is how you handle the overall relationship. S-L-O-W is the name of the game. You will give yourself a mountain you will never get to the top of if the kids believe you are in any way the cause of their parents divorce. Even if you know you aren't, they will go off of what they see and if it's you and daddy living together you are sunk. Be a friend (not the take you out and buy you every thing type, but the spend time and get to really know you type) and let them know you care about them separate from their dad.

When you have established a good place with them all then worry about what they eat. Pick your battles until then.

As for your original question, yes, I think you do have the right to change things in your own home. I'm totally with Dotz on her suggestions. Change things graduaaly and they won't even notice. I switched my son to whole wheat bread from white by slowly phasing it in. He never noticed and actually prefers the whole wheat over white whn given he choice. As far as the movies & video games, you should discuss that with your BF before getting rid of anything that belongs to the kids.

As for moving in with BF, my suggestion is to not do it until his divorce is final and the 60-day waiting period is up. The reason is that if you move in, ex can go back and change custody and visitation and make things really hard for the both of you. Not to mention claim Adultery as the reason for the divorce. It's just a recipe for disaster. And the kids will see you as the reason why mom & dad didn't reconcile.

Please read Sylvia's post again. And again. And again.

Then remember: I was warned not to get involved with a man with children There is a very good reason for the warning, ESPECIALLY since he is not even divorced yet. Everything I have read *and experienced* says that a person should wait at least a year after divorce before getting seriously involved with someone. It takes that long, sometimes longer, to go through all of the emotional stuff that comes with divorce. This is true for men as well as women.

I'm in love with him now and I accept that he comes with two little people. Well, no you are not actually accepting it. You are acknowledging it. And you are already planning to "change things". A noble thought, and even though you are likely "right" about some of the things that need changing, you would be better served by banging your head against a brick wall.

So do yourself a very huge favor, and read Sylvia's post repeatedly. At the very least, there is no reason on earth not to postpone moving in together for a year.

In order to walk into a situation with your eyes wide open, you have to have your eyes wide open.

I agree everyone about waiting. As far as changing his kids, I don't think it's a good idea. I have tried to point out things to my BF regarding his kids and it really was unwelcome. One thing I pointed out was his D's reading skill (she was in 7th grade and reading aloud at elementary school level - she's not stupid). I was certain that she needed glasses. He told me no and became offended when I brought it up again. I guess he felt as though I was accusing him of not paying attention or something. Turns out she needed glasses. My childless friends all say, and I agree, that people with kids resent childless people making suggestions regarding childrearing.

Thanks for all the advice, it was very useful. I just wanted to clarify some things. He was separated for a year before I met him, so I in no way had anything to do with their separation. His ex was cheating repeatedly and she left him, so she shouldn't be sour about him finding someone else. I think in his head he knew it was over before then and he has told me more than once that he deliberately didn't date for 12 months until he felt his head was in the right place for a new relationship. And I am definitely not moving in with him until he is divorced, even if this is just a strategy to make him hurry it along. The divorce is just a hassle at this point, of filling in papers etc so I think he will do it faster if me refusing to move in with him is the motivation. A girl at work is in the same situation and has been trying to get her man to divorce his wife for 2 years, so I am adamant that he needs to do this first. I'm not living with a married man, no matter how much he tells me it's just a piece of paper.
As for the children issue, they know I am not the reason that their parents split up, it happened long before I came along. My bf says he is a much better father now that I am in his life because he was lonely before and partying with the boys too much etc, now he is calmer and more focused at work and with his children.
He has certainly never asked me to be a stepmother and look after his children, he says I don't have to see him at all when he has his children if I don't want to, so I normally only see them once a fortnight, I don't want to always be there when they see him, it's not fair.
I know they're his children and he can parent them how he wants but I also know it will probably ruin our relationship because I feel so strongly about these issues of diet and spoiling children, because of my job and my upbringing. I think I am going to have to really go over this and sort it out before I move in with him.
Any more comments welcome! Thx again.

"He was separated for a year before I met him, so I in no way had anything to do with their separation."

We know that -- Which is why folks here said things like "taint of TOW" instead of calling you out on it in a direct and very critical way. But sometimes "technicalities" (like a marriage that is not quite 'legally' over) matter to some people. His soon-to-be-Ex might or might not be one of those people, and if she chooses to play things that way, she will be able to characterize you as a Homewrecker pretty easily. Fair? No. But life isn't always fair. Accurate? Probably not. But sometimes the truth can take a long, long time to prevail. And while the simple fact that she repeatedly cheated should mean she won't get sour about him moving on, (assuming it is a fact and not something your BF made up) it doesn't always. This board is full of stories where the Ex-wife cheated and left, then blamed Dad's new GF for breaking up the marriage when that wasn't true at all. We're just pointing out that in your case, Mom has some ammunition. So don't stand in the target zone.

I am pretty certain my X tells people I cheated on him. Not true. I don't think it is "playig games" by charterizing someone who dates a married man as having less than desirable ethics and certainly not the interests of the children at heart. And as to OP's friend who has been dating a married man for 2 years?

Adrasta, Do you feel he s dragging his feet with the divorce? When you said not moving in would hurry it along? I hope not, for your sake..I think a guy wants to get married or not......and he d move hell and high water to hurry things along to be with you....Boy, and I d advise(Not that you asked LOL) your girlfriend at work...WHAT the heck is she thinking??? Who even would want a guy if he doesnt want you???? A married guy!!!!Who doesnt get divorced!!! She should jump back into the dating pool and leave that loser with his wife!!!

I guess I'll be the next on the "Sweeby gives great advice" bandwagon. LOL :)

Sweeby's last post is dead on. I started dating my BF after he had been divorced for 2 years and his ex had been re-married and was pregnant with the new hubby's baby. I still got accused of being TOW by people on the sports teams when I would go see FSD play. I assume it's mainly because I am so much younger than him. People just assume that because "dad" has a younger woman that that MUST be the reason for the split.

Also, BM treats me like TOW. She actually told FSD (when she was pregnant) that she wished she had never divorced FSD's dad. But now that I'm in the picture they could never get back together. What????? She is REMARRIED and PREGNANT! SHE is the one that filed for divorce. SHE is the one that cheated and then left.

My ex, on the other hand, cheated on me and then lied about it for a few years. When I left him, he decided to cleanse his soul and tel me about the affair. So, basically, he just added one more reason for my leaving. But he told everyone that I cheated and that's why we split. Everyone believed it. Including his parents who knew the truth.

Good for you for waiting to move in!

"The divorce is just a hassle at this point, of filling in papers etc"

If he wanted to be "moving it along" he would be.

Do you actually have a doctoral degree in child psychology?

In CA, there is a 6 month waiting period between filing the papers and it becoming final. The six months actually begins when they are served, so it can take longer. There is nothing to 'move it along' any sooner than that. Of course, if it is contested and requires a hearing, it can take even longer (although I think they can request a status only and reserve jurisdiction over all other issues.

If he hasn't filed his papers, I would question his lack of motivation. If he has been separated over a year and feels you are 'the one', then he should have already filed. Why hasn't his wife filed if she is the one that left and was cheating? That makes no sense unless they are still engaged with one another. I would be cautious of being a rebound.

I do know that divorces can take quite a while when there are children and property involved. It can take longer when people are not in agreement over the issues. So it is quite possible to have filed and still be in the process for 6 months or longer. I think in my dh's case it took well over a year.

But as IMA said, I would be cautious of being a rebound. And as others pointed out the children may see you as the reason their parents are not together if you go live with their father already.

I got the impression from what the OP said that he was putting off filing papers, not that he was waiting for the waiting period to end or waiting for court dates.

My impression too TOS..I meant hurry up and file and get on the docket..I know you cant hurry the process once its moving forward, My divorce took a year,no waiting period in my state, just a huge backlog of cases...At the final hearing, judge asked X if all was worked out, he said I have to discuss it with my SISTERS first!!!!! And imagine me, all by myself, having to make the decision alone LOL

I believe that you should draw the boundaries with your boyfriend instead in terms of your relationship.

From what you have described, moving in with him and his kids this seems too rushed after only six months. His divorce is not final yet.

I would suggest a much longer waiting period for all of you. The kids are very young and are probably still feeeling the trauma of the divorce.

6 months is not enough to get to know anyone, take another year and then see where it goes. Just continue seeing him without moving in. what is the rush?

Doc,

I appreciate what you are saying about the things he allows his kids to do. Some of his permissiveness may be guilt, but how do you know that that was not the way he was raised?

I have a 15 yr old stepson and my husband never punishes him. This was not huge when we met (he was 9)but the boy steels money from us and from my kids, drills holes in my 4 yr old house and in the siding (thus voiding a 50 yr warrenty). My husband lectures him and that's it.

Now having said that, the things you are mentioning can be small stuff and a difference in upbringing (yours and his). You need to ask your Boyfriend the questions you posed on this board. If you both cannot reach a concensus then perhaps you shouldn't be together because it will only get worse.

The other thing is Doc, there is more than one "correct" and accepted way to doing things and perhaps neither of you is right but the truth lies somewhere in the middle. If you feel your way is right and his is wrong his will never be a way of parenting that you agree on and will degrade your relationship.

Talk to him!

Before i married my husband i truly spoke to him about every aspect of our relationship and his kids. He doesnt' have custody of them but we both still spoke about the what ifs. I made it very clear what i expected, what i wanted, what i do not like.
And i did date him for more than 6 months and i moved in as well before i married to make sure. There are times i get angry at him but im proud in one sense because he backs me up. For the most times,...sometimes he gives in to guilt and i'm there forhim as well. Its not a perfect relationship but we work at it.
I wouldnt' rush. I would continue to date. If you want to move in, date , no engagement, nothing. Dip your feet intot he pool and then slip in..if you do not like it, you get out!

Did OP ever answer the question as to whether she has a doctorate?

You don't have to have one to work in psychology as long as you don't *claim* to have a doctorate.

just wondering why jcdrain calls OP "Doc" two times in her post.

I agree with some of the others here. Give your relationship some more time....time for him to get divorced, time for you to get to know the kids BEFORE you think about moving in together. Frankly, especially because there are kids involved, I don't think you should even move in until you're married. I know, it's a little old fashioned these days, but I think you're better off NOT living together while you all figure out if you can make it as a family - more importantly, the kids are better off. If you're living together, and decide it's not going to work, it'll be hard on the kids if you move out - even if they happen not to like you. It's a bad lesson for their dad to teach and for them to learn, that it's okay to walk away from problems and people abandon you.

I'm a step-mom to two kids, one of whom lives with us full time and one who is special needs (severely multiply disabled). Even though we all get along, including my husband and the kids' mom, and I consider our situation relatively easy compared to most step situations, it's still extremely difficult, and honestly, had I known it would be so hard, I probably wouldn't have gotten involved with someone with kids.

I say give it more time.......

>>>Do you actually have a doctoral degree in child psychology?Who the hell cares?

She claims to be a child psychologist, a title which generally means you have a doctorate, but then makes statements like:''

"I am very well versed on the generally accepted and "correct" way to manage children"

when anyone who has taken even one course in child psychology knows that there is no one "generally accepted and correct way to manage children."

I am feeling a bit like I am being attacked here. I have 5 years of study in Child Psychology from one of the best universities in the country, but that is not a doctorate. In my country (I'm not in the US) that makes me a child and school psychologist. Really not the issue however - the job I work in, I deal everyday with severe behaviour management issues and I know the correct way to manage children (of course I know people have their own styles) is routine, consistency, boundaries and positive rather than negative attention. I don't think much of the research or the experts will argue with that, but correct me if I'm wrong.
My original question to people that have done this before, is, is it reasonable of me to expect that if I live with him, I get to negotiate some of the rules and expectations of his children?
I didn't ask whether our relationship will work out or whether I should move in with him. Like I said, I'm not naive, I have had relationships before and have lived with men before. And to update, he is proceeding with the divorce, it is not papers sitting on his desk. I have told him I would like him to get divorced sooner rather than later and he is doing it. The issue of the children still remains however, because I know I will find it difficult for us to all live together if they are being brought up his way with no input from me. Please don't ask me about my degree, or how long he has been separated - it is really not the issue. Thanks for the sensible replies.

How long he has seperated is not an issue? I find it strange that in your office of people working with children it is acceptable to date married men, and push them to get divorced. Even stranger that you think this will not have any impact on your relationship with the children if the relationship continues.

At the risk of sounding like my mother....

You can have degrees in child psychology. You can work with children. You can read every book ever written about child behaviour. You can attend every lecture that comes on how to raise kids.

ALL of those have a limited impact until you actually have children. The things you learn in books, and the things you learn at your job, are only partly going to help you when its your own kids that you are dealing with. For one thing, people who have never had children cannot fully understand the parental bond that happens. THey give mental assent to the concept of someone being willing to die to protect their child, but until they have a child, they dont fully understand it.

I seem to remember a time, before I had children, that I was certain that MY children would NEVEr act up in the grocery store, or have a tantrum, or tell me a lie, and that parents with children who do those things were obviously not parenting correctly. Boy, that humble pie certainly tasted bitter.

The fastest way to destroy your relationship with your boyfriend is to get between him and his kids. You will be doubly tempted to do so because you have all the book knowledge about kids. IT would be a better way, to build a relationship with those kids, without focusing on the rules and changing their behaviour, until you have earned that right in their life by being someone they want the respect of. ITs not hard to make changes in young childrens behaviour, as you surely know from your studies. But when the changes become the focus of the relationship, then I wonder what the point is? Kids will do almost anything to please someone that they respect, trust, and who has sincere affection for them. They are masters at s potting phonies. But it doesnt happen overnight, and it takes extra long when there are outside influence or factors working against you. For now, its Dads job to set the rules, until you earn that place. If he wont, then you have to back off.

IF you try to raise kids by a textbook, you will fail. Children are unique human beings. There is no one way, and there is no way that is absolutely right. There probably are a few ways that are absolutely wrong, but I dont think your boyfriends treatment of them even comes close to that category. With patience and perseverance, you will find what works for your family, and it may not be what the book says, or what the well meant advice of all of us says. Each family finds its own way - heck, each child finds his or her own way. Hang in there, if you can, or if you cant, then release this man and find someone who has not yet had children.

As my momma told me when I had my first child, forget what you have been told to do and go more with your instincts. CHildren are not a science experiment.

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My original question to people that have done this before, is, is it reasonable of me to expect that if I live with him, I get to negotiate some of the rules and expectations of his children?

Only your BF can answer that question. My guess is that he'll say yes because he doesn't want to lose you after only 6 months. Especially if you're his first girlfriend as a grown-up. When you're all moved in and you try to *negotiate* rules he'll change his mind. He has that right because he's the parent.

You do have the right to set rules about how you and your belongings are treated. "No you can't eat in my car." "You will ask permission before taking money from my purse." As far as what they are allowed to eat and watch on TV - that's up to their parents. If you plan marry him, you'll have a much easier time of it if you learn to accept his parenting style.

I'm not trying to attack you by agreeing with those who have advised you to slow down. You have lived with other men but living with a DAD is serious business. We're a bunch of stepmoms offering our two cents. When we point out the red flags in your situation it is simply so that you might learn from our mistakes - er experiences, lol. Since you work in the field, you can probably figure out a way to back away from the children without making them feel abandoned. No sleepovers during his visitations until they have time to adjust to the fact that mommy and daddy will never get back together. I would think that the clock on that would start after the divorce, but I'm no expert in childhood development.

I hope his divorce process goes smoothly. Leaving his high school sweetheart must be traumatic for all involved.

Congratulations Sylvia in Texas, you can copy and paste. I put the US as my country for confidentiality reasons, and so what if I registered recently, that's because I googled and found this forum and wanted to post a question. Everyone has to register sometime.
I realise that I can read every book in the world but not "know" until I have children myself, which is why I am here asking your opinions. If I thought I knew everything because I have a degree in it, then why would I be asking you all?
I don't think the divorce being official will make any difference to the children. It is a piece of paper being submitted to wherever it gets submitted, the children will not even know about it. The trauma is when mum and dad don't live together anymore, not when the divorce is legal.
Dating "married" men, comes in 2 categories. Dating a separated man who is in the process of filing for divorce is entirely different to sneaking around with a b*stard who is cheating on his wife and still going to her bed at night. I highly object to being put in that category. Perhaps if you look at it from a religious point of view it's the same, but I see it from a moral point of view and it is certainly not the same.
And can I just clarify...to those who said it's wrong to date a married man...are you saying that a man who is separated from his wife (and perhaps the relationship has been over in his head for 2 years, for example but they have only just separated)...has no right to date or fall in love? He should sit at home watching TV and refuse to speak to any single women in case there is an attraction, until his divorce is final?

"re you saying that a man who is separated from his wife (and perhaps the relationship has been over in his head for 2 years, for example but they have only just separated)...has no right to date or fall in love?"

Yes, I for one am saying that. You are married or you are not. You can not be a little bit married.

Not only is in wrong, it is unwise. People need time after the ending of one relationship to heal before jumping into another relationship. This is 100 times more important when there are kids involved.

so you think you can be tracked down by what *country* you're in

& you're super-nanny but you don't know how to tell your boyfriend that he needs to adjust his parenting style

& you're a psychologist

& a divorce is just a piece of paper & it doesn't matter if a man has one before you date/sleep with/*move into the house with him & his children*.

ok.

I understand.

Adastra wrote: "Dating "married" men, comes in 2 categories. Dating a separated man who is in the process of filing for divorce is entirely different to sneaking around with a b*stard who is cheating on his wife and still going to her bed at night. I highly object to being put in that category. Perhaps if you look at it from a religious point of view it's the same, but I see it from a moral point of view and it is certainly not the same."

I am going to share an experience I have had which I hope everyone who thinks like that can learn from. Adastra, like you, I was VERY naive about this subject once. I was working with a man who was very charming at a time when I was very vulnerable, who made sure I knew early on that he was separated from his wife (of over 10 years) and had been living outside the house they'd shared for almost a year. They were "in the process" of finalizing the divorce, he said. I was attracted, he was persuasive, and I just didn't forsee that there would be any trouble. After all, their marriage was "over". (There is definitely something to the whole "attraction is blind" thing, you can get very carried away very easily... any of us can... so I DO understand that. We see what we want to see at those times.) Yadda yadda yadda... (This was my first and only time in that situation so of course I did not see these classic red flags.)

Anyway, as it turned out, "in the process" of getting a divorce meant they were both dragging their feet. "Separated" should really be re-worded "Still married". But he was living out of the house! And had been for months! No matter. (And for all I know, this place he was "living" in was an auxiliary trysting spot.) Naturally, his not-even-ex-wife began to interfere with his life, and to a small extent with mine. But who could blame her?

Sadly, the means by which the realities of this situation were brought home to me was via gossip. In a nutshell (and to return to my main point in response to Adastra's quote above): even though *I* perceived that there was a difference between "separated-and-out-of-the-house" and "sneaky b*st*rd married man", the gals at work did not perceive one. It didn't help that they were of the sort to read things in the worst possible light (especially if it would help them get ahead on the job); it didn't help that I was young & attractive; and it didn't help that I happen to live in a fairly conservative black-or-white morality kind of town. There are just times/places/people you will encounter, Adastra, who are NOT going to be understanding of the situation AT ALL, and depending on your circumstances, your day-to-day life could be made into something of a hell. (It has taken A LOT of time and effort to rebuild my job prospects and relationships.) NOT TO MENTION THE KIDS' LIVES. And the kids will be the ones who have absolutely no fault in the situation whatsoever, but there will be some repercussions for them, even if those repercussions fall into the barely-detectable, politely insidious category.

Take it from me: I've been there. And I will NEVER do it again. I've come to realize that ---while the gossip did come from partly mean-spirited motives--- the gals at work were not necessarily wrong to judge the situation harshly. I see that now after the fact, after removing the rose-colored glasses. Basically, it's just not good for anyone to get involved before the ink is dry on divorce papers... and for some time afterwards, too.

I'm not trying to be a huge downer, Adastra, or to judge you (that would be very hypocritcal of me to do!) But I think you should prepare yourself for the worst case scenario, and also think about the situation from the perspectives of all parties involved, including the ex and ESPECIALLY the kids.

Silvia you are amazing, and I think one of us is in the wrong forum, I'm just not sure who. I thought this was a non-hostile forum to discuss topics of similar interest, but clearly I have come to a negative place where some people like to force their opinions and degrade people. Would it have made a difference if I hadn't mentioned my line of work? I am just a person wondering about some issues in my relationship (like most people) and thought I'd google the topic, and ask around. Clearly there are people here who have been there, done that, and who better than to ask advice of?
I never said I was supernanny, I said my job is similar to that of her - observing a situation where there are behaviour management of children issues, evaluating the problems and writing, implementing and evaluating a program to modify behaviours. I have brought up the issues with my bf, he has asked me for help with some things and I think I have gone about it the right way because he has implemented a few things I have suggested and he is amazed that they are working, I just got off the phone to him and he was telling me about 1,2,3 Magic and how his son is actually staying in his bed after bedtime when he used this technique. I don't think I deserve to be talked to like that, I am not an idiot, I am not claiming to be an expert, just that I have more practical knowledge and interest in the subject than the average person, and it is occuring in my personal life.
I know I can not tracked down, honestly...I just don't want to put my country but I had to choose one so I put the US because that seems to be where most people here are from, and it makes me very anonymous. Is it really relevant? Children are children in any country.
Yes I believe that it is wrong to be sneaking around with a married man, it is immoral and anyone who has been on the other side would surely never do it. In the situation of my bf and I, he has spent time alone, feels in his head that he is ready for another relationship, and has begun dating. The divorce is just a legal piece of paper to finalise it, and while I do want him to get divorced, I am not going to refuse to see someone wonderful who I am falling in love with, just because of that. Neither of us are deceiving anyone, lying to or hurting anyone by being together, so what's the problem? I, personally function on morality, rather than legality, technicality and/or religion. But that's just my opinion, so surely that's OK?

theotherside: OK thanks for saying so, I just wanted to clarify that. I personally don't agree with you, but that's OK. Of course people need time to heal, one relationship took me almost 3 years to get over but another one took me 2 weeks because it was over in my head long before it was officially over. Thankfully a divorce wasn't an issue because I wasn't married. People healing after a breakup is not defined by the divorce paper being stamped and dated, it's in your mind and your heart. You do not all of a sudden get over someone when the divorce is final. In fact I am sure this is never the case. It's either before the divorce or after, not on the day. Oh, the divorce date is today, that's it! I am totally over my ex today! I don't think so...

I know I won't be posting any more questions to this forum because some people here can't have a civilised conversation about the topic at hand. I asked for opinions about step children, not my job, my qualifications, my morals, the country I live in or anything else. I am quite secure in these things, I just haven't done the step mum thing before.
Really thanks to the people that have written me sensible answers, it helps to have other's opinions.

You have been dating a separated man for "almost" 6 months and you are already discussing moving in and wondering what your roll would be in his children's life??

6 months of dating? You are still in the honeymoon stage of dating. Wait another 6 months and you might view him completely differently.

You wonder if you can change his parenting style. You've already seen how he parents. The answer is "No, you can't." It's like anything else. You can't change how a man is with his money, his work ethic, or his parenting style. If you don't like it, leave it. You will not be able to whip him and his children into shape.

You've never dated a man with children or been a single parent. I would say that your boyfriend is looking for a wifey replacement ASAP. His wife cheated on him, etc...He doesn't have any other dating experiences with other women. He has 2 young children and you're available, ready, and willing to help out.

If I were you, I'd find a man who doesn't already have children. Or, at least, one who is not a fixer-upper.

"The divorce is just a legal piece of paper to finalise it, and while I do want him to get divorced, I am not going to refuse to see someone wonderful who I am falling in love with, just because of that. Neither of us are deceiving anyone, lying to or hurting anyone by being together, so what's the problem? I, personally function on morality, rather than legality, technicality and/or religion. But that's just my opinion, so surely that's OK?"

Adastra, believe me, I thought the exact same way about the situation I was in, and like you I still consider myself very open-minded on almost everything, and *personally* would not judge the specific situation you happen to be in. If I had a friend in the situation, I would never think to look down my nose at her or outcast her or blame her for it. I would recognize that in the throes of being "in love" or attracted, anyone can find themselves in a situation where they are not considering everything that has to be considered and I would give them perspective and advice. Not to castigate or try and change their entire situation, but to help them prepare for the worst case sceanrio.

Like you, I felt that there was no deception, no hurting, and hence no reason to feel concerned about my situation. I wish someone had simply said to me: "Just think about how you'll deal with it if the ex pops into the picture or refuses to sign the papers; just think abut how you'll handle it if people start judging you and giving you the cold shoulder; what if the kids start getting confused and emotionally overwhelmed or start to see you as The Other Woman? How will you address that or change that perception? CAN you even chnage it once it's formed? Are you prepared to move out of town if someone decides to make it a big town scandal for their own nefarious purposes? Can your job/career absorb any of this potential flak or will you have to start completely fresh if things go south?"

I swear I'm not trying to rain on your parade! And if you have made up your mind that the love of this man is worth more to you than the opinion of others based on 'technicalities', that is your right. I by no means subscribe to the idea that anyone should be OVERLY concerned about what others think. Note that nowhere have I said "drop this man like a hot potato".

However, I really do think YOU would be smart to think some more about some of these unpleasant thoughts that right now seem like total downers. And at least prepare yourself for certain possibilities that may occur. While we shoudln't live our lives totally, according to the opinions of others, we should prepare ourselves for how we will handle certain things when there is a chance that those opinions could negatively impact your life (in ways you may not be forseeing) and more especially the lives of ***KIDS***. (I would say those opinions could also negatively impact your boyfriend's life, but they actually probably won't because "the old double-standard" is alive and well. Case in point: the guy I was involved with got promptly promoted twice within less than a year, right after our entanglement; even though he initiated and pushed it throughout, I was the one who took on 100% of the blame/consequences for it.)

Again, I'm not saying end the relationship. If there are any solid admonitions I would give, it's this:

*first of all: MAKE SURE YOU GET AN OFFICIAL COPY OF THE FINALIZED DIVORCE RECORD. (If he will not gladly hand it to you, or if you are too afraid to ask, you are already taking a huge risk and getting the relationship off to an iffy start.)

*until the ink has been dry on the divorce papers for 6 months: DO NOT MOVE IN TOGETHER.

*until the ink has been dry on the divorce papers for 6 months: try to be as discreet as possible about the relationship. Don't bring him around your workplace and don't go around his. If you have to talk about him much at all with others during this time, make sure to emphasize TO EVERYONE how you are both trying to be patient, giving things plenty of time and trying to get the relationship off to a proper start, especially for the kids' sake.

*until the ink has been dry on the divorce papers for at least 6 months, and until you have moved in and been living with him for a year, and until there is an engagement ring on your finger, DO NOT THINK OF YOURSELF AS THE KIDS' STEPMOTHER. Yes, you have a right to have boundaries as regards your possessions and to assert some personal issues related to YOU and your particular needs, but DO NOT start attempting to in any way rear or shape your BF's kids until you are actually their stepmother or at least for a year (the point being, after this period, if everything goes right, enough time will have passed for you to actually get to know them and earn some more of their trust as a permanent fixture in their lives.)

The above rules may sound severe, especially when you're in love and can't wait to get started on your new life together. But from eevrything I have heard and have experienced personally, I am 110% sure that the future will be 1000x brighter for everyone involved if you can stick these things out for the next [approximately] year.

It's a matter of "hope for the best but be prepared for the worst" and long-term benefits vs. short-term sacrifices.

are you saying that a man who is separated from his wife (and perhaps the relationship has been over in his head for 2 years, for example but they have only just separated)...has no right to date or fall in love?

I'm not saying that at all. That man certainly has the right to date. In fact, if that man has never had a girlfriend, he should be dating a lot of people to figure out what he really wants in an adult relationship. His kids don't need to see dad's new girlfriend brushing her teeth in dad's bathroom, though. My opinion is that you'll have an easier time in the future with biomom and the children if you slow down a bit at this early stage of your relationship. The point, as serenity illustrated so beautifully, is NOT that you're doing anything immoral. It's more about perception and increasing your chances for a successful relationship with those kids and their mom for the long haul.

A 5 and 7 year old will certainly know about the divorce. If mommy or daddy don't tell them outright, surely they'll notice when mommy is celebrating, or crying or telling her friends about you. She is the most important person in their little lives, believe me they'll notice her moods unless she's a robot. It's better for your future relationship with them if they don't associate you with mommy's unhappiness any more than necessary. My steps were 4 and 6 and their parents had been divorced for 2 years when I met them. So, while they weren't reading divorce papers or marriage licenses, they were totally aware that dad had "replaced mommy" (SD's words). We get along okay, but they have gotten along better with biomom's boyfriends over the years - they are young adults now.

Having been 'dad's girlfriend' I believe it is best to take it slow, be very respectful to the kids and the ex at this point. I, personally, didn't give child-rearing advice (much) even as 'dad's fiance' or 'dad's wife' because I don't have kids. I understand that you are an expert so it's natural to want to jump in and help but I would advise you to do so only when asked. 6 months in, dad is grateful for the help, wants you to move in ASAP and continue sharing your expertise. 6 years in, the hearts and flowers stage is over, biomom is on his case about whatever, his kids don't get along with your biochild, and your helpful tips become an attack on his parenting style in his perception. Read some the previous threads on this board, you'll see what I mean.

There is no rule book for this stuff. We're all just flailing along, same as you. That's why we came to this board. I hope your anger or hurt feelings won't prevent you from filing our advice away for future reference!

Serenity...I see what you're saying, but I don't think I'm going to ask for a copy of the divorce certificate, I think that would sound like I don't trust him and I always like to trust someone until they prove otherwise. Work and gossip is not an issue, we live an hour apart in a big city and have very different lines of work so that will never get mixed up. I know I'm not their step mother, I'm Daddy's gf, but I'm the only one so I don't think it's too traumatic for them having me around. Their mom has a new man now and from the sounds of it is trying to buy their affection with day trips and half the gift shop. Good luck with that.

Bunglogrl...I asked him if he had been playing the field a bit since he'd been separated (hoping he had!) and he said he hasn't dated anyone. I agree, he should have been seeing different women but the fact is he was alone for a year or so and didn't. He's just not that type of person. I know another recently separated man with 2 small children and he has been sleeping with about every 3rd woman he meets if the rumours are true. Some people need to, some don't. My bf is a relationship person, and that is not such a bad thing, having been cheated on by my last boyfriend, it is attractive for me to be with a man that sustained a relationship for so long. Obviously he is not like my ex that just wanted to go and screw around.

I do see the point when people say he is just looking for a replacement wife and here I am! Well, is that such a bad thing? He likes having me round and making me dinner and buys me little gifts (something I am not used to either). I haven't come across many people that like to be alone. I have done all the things you do in your 20's, college, work, travel, a few boyfriends, and I know I'm ready now to settle down and I'd like to get married (but not desperate to, I never had the "princess day" fantasy about the white dress haha) and have my own baby soon. I don't mind helping out with his kids and he does frequently ask me for advice about parenting. He knows I'm not a parent but I tell him what I know and it usually works if he does it. He told me he has done his grieving for the relationship, and wants to move on, so if a new wife is what he wants, then that's not such a bad thing. I'm very independent, I work full time, pay my own way and I still travel without him, so it's not like I'm going to slot right into to being his housekeeper, chef and babysitter. We are both respectful to each other and know we are lucky to have met each other.

There are a few reasons we want to move in together. He can't pay his mortgage alone and I can't afford to buy a house on my own (house prices have skyrocketed in the last few years in my city). Plus we live an hour apart so with our jobs, the nights he has his kids, the gym and social committments we don't get to see each other very often. I know it sounds like a rush but it doesn't feel like it. It takes months to buy/move houses anyway so it likely won't happen until the new year.

Anyway, I'm working it out with the kids, and I have told me I want to help him and I can, if he asks but he has permission to tell me to shut up if I go overboard or offend him. Thanks for all the advice...

Adastra, if you don't want to come out and ask him for the divorce certificate, that's understandable b/c it's very awkward. My point is that he should be wanting to come running to show it to you as soon as the ink is dry. If he expresses any reluctance or secrecy about this ---or worse, tries to give you a guilt trip about "trusting him"--- I'd be concerned. We all want to trust people, especially the person we're choosing to spend our lives with, but if there are dangling bits of uncertainty, those do tend to haunt us. If you really are afraid to broach the subject with him, you can probably call the local county Dept. of Vital Records and find out for sure. Unfortuantely, it's just all too common that divorces are never finalized.... and every month that goes by where it hasn't happened is another month of anxiety that will eat away at you in the background, even if right now you are not feeling it. The very first time BM asks him to do a favor, or he passes a giggle on the phone with her, or one of the kids says something about wishing DH & BM were back together, a part of you will wonder and want to know for sure that the ink is dry. If he gives the slightest indication of dragging his feet when it comes to marrying you, you will wonder. So it's best to find out for sure so it doesn't rear its head at some point. Think about how much harder & wierder it will be to bring it up as a concern AFTER you've moved in together, or even several months or years down the road.

And sorry, but I'd also be concerned about moving in together b/c he can't afford his mortgage on his own, and I would SERIOUSLY hope that is not #1 or even #10 on the list of reasons. What would he be doing about that if you weren't in his life?

I cant imagine buying a house with someone who is still legally married -- even if possible, seems fraught with issues. As everyone knows, I dont recommend dating someone until after divorce is final, for a number of reasons. But you have evidently discounted those issues. At a minimum I think you should tell him that there is nopoint in looking to buy a house to buy until he is divorced.

Adastra doesnt want to hear all of the collective wisdom being expressed here that tells her she is rushing things with this guy.

The fact that she wants to move in with a guy she has been dating six months, he has shared physical custody of his kids, and has been separated only a year, and only recently filed for divorce ( if that), indicates a huge lack of common sense on her part, and it smacks of desparation. I am wondering if she doesnt just want to settle down and have a baby because she is entering her thirties, so she has chosen to overlook the problems with this guy and rush it.

Her question, does she get say in how the kids are disciplined, is a fair one. THe answer, is yes of course. But the right to do so has to be earned, and that takes time. Its a LOT easier in the long run as well, if you have the same parenting style as the other person.

I will say again, if you get between a father and his children, especially when you have no real history with the father yet, you are asking for trouble.

Slow down, give the honeymoon stage a chance to wear off. Stop worrying about settling down and having a baby, you have YEARS to do that. Take your time for everyones sake, yours, the kids, and the mans. THis is too important to rush and too important to make a mistake in.

Its also disrespectful to the children to rush into a live in situation after only six months, when there isnt even a divorce yet. But thats my own personal opinion, and I suppose its not shared by the majority. I guess in fact, I think its disrespectful to the children to live in at all, unless you are at least engaged, with definite marriage plans. Kids deserve better than revolving "parents" , and it does them a disservice to allow them to become attached to you as part of their family, without the committment that says you ARE part of their family.

Lola said:
"You wonder if you can change his parenting style. You've already seen how he parents. The answer is "No, you can't." It's like anything else. You can't change how a man is with his money, his work ethic, or his parenting style. If you don't like it, leave it. You will not be able to whip him and his children into shape."

Oh so true. You will be frustrated and angry by the time you run away screaming that you wasted the best years of your life and you will feel (and maybe look) years older than you really are.

The only thing that would make it worse is if you have children of your own with him.

Then when you've decided you've had enough, he may marry the first girl that comes along (seeing as he doesn't like to date much and is a 'relationship' type) and your kids will have a new SM. (he may even meet her before the ink is dry on your divorce papers) I'd hope he is picky about the women he dates but you don't make it sound that way.

My advice: You deserve better and if you don't feel that you can ask him about his divorce papers, you should really reconsider the whole thing. Marriage is built on trust and if he wants you to trust him, then he will gladly hand it to you with pride. The fact that you are reluctant to ask for it indicates that you don't trust him to not get upset. A good marriage also takes good communication and being able to talk about anything.

I'm back to defend myself again! First of all, I did say above that I wouldn't be moving in with him, or buying a house with him until he is divorced properly. I would have to be completely stupid to do that, getting into a legal and financial agreement with him when she will be getting half his assetts.
I've been single for a few years, never really meeting anyone I was all that interested in, and same for him for a year. We met each other and that was that, so I don't think that either one of us are desperate. I'm not the type of person that has 3 month relationships and calls them boyfriends, I'm either in it for the long haul, or I'm not interested enough to pursue anything casual.
I'm not scared to ask him to see the divorce papers, I just think it's a very jealous and untrusting thing to ask for. It's basically saying I don't believe you. He has never given me any indication he would deceive me, so I trust him.
I know about honeymoon periods, and I know they wear off. The reason he can't afford to pay his mortgage is because his ex was contributing a small amount to it, and now she isn't. He has been keeping up the payments but not comfortably so he has to downsize. I can't afford to buy a place by myself so it seems sensible to get something together, rather than drive back and forwards across the city with a backpack every second night. I am adamant this won't be until he's divorced.
I'm not rushing it with him just because I want to have a baby, I'm ready to and I feel I have met the right person. I'm not talking about tomorrow, but in the next year or two. Most of my friends already have small children, so I don't think I'm rushing anything, I've waited the longest so I'm not going to be getting divorced after 5 years of getting bored with my husband, like most of them that married at 22.
His children do not have revolving parents, I am very sensitive to that. He did not introduce me to his children until he decided I was for the long term and I did not hang out with them until I knew it would be long term.
This is very difficult to explain myself...you guys don't know me or him, so maybe it doesn't sound right to you, but it feels right to me. This is the first time in a long time I've felt calm and content with someone, we still haven't had an argument or disagreement (oh but I know it will come eventually!), and I've been happy not to want to go travelling again or be with anyone else. Don't worry, I'm very sensible and so is my mother, and I run everything by her first!

YOur mother knows you are serious about a man whose divorce isnt final? That alone would make me advise my DD to step back. Is here any here who wouldnt advise their daughter to slow things down here.

Adrasta, don't defend yourself or your choices, here or anywhere. You seem to have a very sensible approach and have asked advice for a very common issue. Sure, it all seems a bit fast, and I think the advice of waiting before you move in is valid, but none of this is gospel. YOU are the only one walking in your shoes, you know this man, you know these kids, you know the circumstances, you get to go to bed at night and wake up in the morning in your own life, so the opinions of others of your life and your choices are just that - their opinions.

My opinion :) would be for you to just take a step back and relax. ALL parents 'do the wrong thing'. There's no handbook. You literally just learn on your feet. Sometimes, if I've had a REALLY rough day, my kids eat cereal for dinner in front of the TV. Most other nights we all have a lovely homecooked dinner at the table together. Do the occasional 'breakfast dinners' make me a bad mom? Who cares. Seriously. It's fine to be concerned about their diet, their manners and the movies/games issue, and you should discuss these with their father, but you will honestly save yourself a lot of drama and problems if you just learn to go with the flow.

Remember, you're walking into an already established 3-person family set-up. The last thing you want to do is bulldoze your way in and change everything because that will just cause resentment and confusion in these kids.

Dotz gave you good advice. Once you have moved in, get up before they do and make them a nice healthy breakfast. Instead of banning violent games, teach them how to play monopoly. Stock up your fridge with fresh fruit juices. Eventually they will learn that coke and fruit loops are an occasional treat. What's the worst that can happen? Their mother complains that you're feeding them healthy food with occasional 'bad' treats? Boo Hoo.

Just lower your expectations a bit. You're not there to save them ;) just to enhance their lives with your wonderful presence.

"I'd hope he is picky about the women he dates but you don't make it sound that way."

Ima, this was really b!tchy. I hope you've given yourself a spanking already.

Barefoot,

Sorry you feel that way. OP's description of him makes it sound like he's not very picky in choosing his partners. That's something only she knows but if it's true, then she should think about that now, because if she has kids with him and things don't work out for them, the next gal he picks might end up as her children's stepmother.

You are right, only OP knows this guy and her own circumstances and all we know is what is said here. She says he's been with his 'childhood sweetheart' since they were teenagers and he's 31 now. That means they've been together all of his adult life. And she thinks that he, after not dating at all for a year of his separation, and she is the first person he's dated, found 'the one' on his first try? Maybe, but highly unlikely. I'll admit, it's not an impossibility, so who knows?

Adastra, I apologize if that came across as b!tchy but it was not intended to be an insult to you, it was an observation on this guy. As someone else pointed out here, some guys have issues with being alone. It doesn't mean that you aren't a great catch. That wasn't what I was saying.