Ouuff. For me, reaching up is better than bending down, especially for a heavy stack of dishes.

I really hate bending down to lower cabs to get anything I use multiple times a day, even if it's on the top shelf. I'm taller than you though so YMMV.

why not put drawers in the island for the dishes?

There's not enough depth in the island. The other side has MW drawer and drawers equivalent to that size. I do some some uppers but there are just further away from this spot. I was trying to picture myself bending down to put away stuff...hmmmmm

OK, I admit I am really puzzled by some folks' insistence that drawers always involve less bending over than cabinets. Now I have drawers and I do like them. And I get that they involve one movement instead of two, like ROTS shelves do. And I get that you probably don't have to bend over as much (or any) to see into a drawer microwave vs. a standard MW put in under the counter.

But bending over less to put dishes or glasses on a pull-out shelf vs. a drawer? Or in this case a 12" deep under counter shelf rather than a drawer? I'm not gettin' it...at least not for the top two shelves. The base you are putting the things on...whether the shelf or the drawer bottom is probably the same or similar height off the floor, isn't it? Bottom shelf...yes a deeper bend for a shelf even if ony 12" deep, IF what you put there is something like cups or glasses which could be at the BACK of the shelf and you need to go lower to see back there. But put plates or large bowls that take up the whole 12" shelf and I THINK it's pretty much the same dive. Of course, since you only have 12" of depth vs. 24", it probably does mean using the top two shelves to hold what would fit in the top drawer of a standard base cabinet. But that's another kettle of fish.

No? Am I missing something?

melissastar -

I know folks here are drawer crazy, and I'm one of those folks. But there really is a difference in the motion required. Take a book and put it on the floor, then reach down and pick it up. Now, take that book and put it under your dining room table, and put a stack of other books in front of it. Now bend down and pick it up. See the difference?

I agree that a 12"-deep cabinet would be easier to reach into than one 24" deep -- not as much reaching forward required once bent over. But I'm not sure I'd want glass on those shelves near the floor. Somehow I think I'd be more likely to drop them either loading or unloading the shelves than with a drawer.

But, if the only option available is a 12" deep cabinet -- versus nothing -- put in the cabinet. You'll find a use for it one way or the other.

What if you had the 12 shelf on top ( maybe for glasses and cups, or whatever you use most)and underneath had drawers that extended more deeply under the MW drawer? This would take some very artful cabinetry because you would be using some space underneath the MW drawer that'snow only accessible from the DW side, resulting in a shallower space on the side of the MW drawer.

In other words I'm suggesting not having a single vertical wall dividing the cab backs under the island. Does that make sense?

Of course the deeper drawers under the MW may be in your cooking zone and needed for pots and pans, but if that is less critical space I would find it easier to store less-often-used stuff in the resulting lower and narrower space. You could also divide the space half and half (18" per side below the MW.)

Just an idea....

L

liriodendron - that's a good idea!

with a drawer (even a shallow one) you just slide it out (no opening a door) and peer down into it for what you want - or to put something in it.

you could use the top drawer for most used cups and glasses, 2nd drawer down for plates and bowls. that way you can get to some of each w/o much reaching down (very little). then use drawer 3 (and 4 if that many) for more of each for times when company is there or dw not done yet etc.

with rots you still have to open 2 doors (completely) and pull out the rot rather than just pulling out a drawer. more motion, more things to do to access dishes.

and the drawer front acts as a 'safety' ledge to keep a cup or glass from accidentally falling off the edge of a shelf.

as someone with a very painful back that is aggravated by arm movement I've thought about this for over a year...and dream of the day I can move dishes into drawers.

I had a large china cab with a lot of dishes in lower area. To access the back, you pull out the front stuff and set it somewhere like on the floor or if there's a countertop above, you put them there--stacks of plates or bowls. Then you remove the back items--gotta set them somewhere--then go replace the front ones. Also, you can only stack some things two-high (some cups, mugs etc.) so there can be wasted space, which is harder to adjust while looking from side than when looking down into a drawer. Plan on sitting on the floor a lot.

You could get roll-out drawer-shelves. This would make it easier to access items stored towards the back.

Also think of ergonomics. Remember that uppers are usually inset but lowers stick out, pushing the stander out away from the countertop. Think of a stack of plates to move, say 8 of them. Usually you have to bend to get a visual fix on them, then trust your arms more blindly while standing. To remove a stack of plates from lower shelf you pull toward yourself and then up (weight to be lifted is in front of you, arms are down, gotta use shoulders and rock back on heels) whereas when pulling from a drawer or lower pull-out surface your feet are under the drawer and you pull straight up (better for back and better leverage).

When you reach up to put things in uppers you are standing with toes under toe kick and you lean slightly forward. Balance is better. Yes, you need to be able to lift with upper body. I usually break a dishes stack into two halves when lifting to uppers--the countertop is right there to help me do this and I can see what I'm doing.

Jakabedy, Florantha and others: Yes, I understand there's a HUGE difference in the motion and in the ease of using 24" deep drawers and 24" deep shelves. I'm just not sure I buy the idea that if an undercounter shelf can ONLY be 12" deep, if it makes that much difference, especially on shelves that are closer to the countertop. But perhaps I'm not seeing it so much because when I picture my glass and dish storage, which are in 12" deep upper cabinets, I never have to take something out to get what I want in the back. Plates and bowls are stacked just one deep on the shelves. Glasses and cups are placed in rows of the same type/size. I only ever have to reach to the back if the ones in front are in the dishwasher!

When you explain the motion differences Florantha, I realize that folks are short-handing when they say "you don't have to bend as much"...I think they really mean the whole difference in HOW you bend. And that I get.

But back to the OP's question. Lirodendrun's idea is great if you can work it out with your cabinetmaker. I'd sure try. Besides, I think it's so cool, when you use space innovatively and unexpectedly like that...it's like a little puzzle...how did they do that?

Make sure you consider all of your options.

My personal preference is to store dishes closer to point of use. In my kitchen this means less traffic crossing the kitchen at the busiest times. The dw gets unloaded during quieter times but grabbing plates or glasses is usually dictated by the moment they are needed. When unloading the dw I stack the dishes and bowls on the counter and carry them in one trip to the storage cabinet near the table (and also near the fridge and mw.)

FWIW I have a 12" deep cabinet under our peninsula (the 24" deep cabinets face the dining area side and the 12" side faces the kitchen.) I love the cabinet. It holds our often used stainless steel mixing bowls, colanders and glass mw bowls. Because the cabinet is so shallow, access is easy (like grabbing something off of a bookshelf).

The advantage of shelves over drawers is that they are height adjustable--if you want to add to your stack of plates, it's just a matter of changing the shelf spacing instead of looking for a separate overflow spot. And you aren't moving the entire stack of plates or bowls every time you want to grab one. And if like me, you have odd older plates mixed in with the newer ones, you can easily see where the plates are in the stack instead of just looking down at the top one.

I have some dishes in drawers and some others in cabinets opposite the drawers beneath the island. Even if the drawers were only 12 inches deep (front to back) I would strongly prefer them to the lower cabinet shelf storage.

The drawers are packed full (stacked small bowls, plates) without the use of any dividers, so they hold a lot relative to their footprint. When I want something from the drawer I just pull it out and the entire contents come out to meet me. I can easily see what's there, reach and pick up what I want, close the drawer and I'm set. When I want something from the cabinet I need to lean over to see what's where and must be more careful lifting things out because the sideways motion (in my uncoordinated hands, anyway) makes it more likely to bump into something else on the way out.

Also, while I have filled up the spaces between stacks of things in the drawers with stacks of smaller things (like tiny bowls, measuring cup), I can't do that on the shelves because they would be knocked over when lifting other things out. If you draw a rectangle and fill it up with large circles, that's the cupboard storage in my case (even if the circles are just one row.) For the drawer, you can fill in the space between those circles with other things. So if space or klutziness are considerations there may be an advantage to drawers.

I read this thread quickly, but the suggestion of varied depth drawers to accommodate your mw space is really clever.

If part of the problem is that your cabinet company doesn't offer the shallower drawers, consider ordering drawer boxes (or roll out trays with deep sides like drawers) from a company online. Quickdrawers is one. The drawers are realively cheap (I just paid about $22 each for some dovetailed drawer bodies) and you could then simply affix them to the drawer fronts offered by your cab company. Or make roll-trays out of them. You can get blum and other slides in ALL different depths. It's not that hard to do.

Daicy, you missed one of my points. In order to see into a lower cab you must bend. In order to see into a lower drawer, you look down. In order to reach into a lower cab, your knees bend and your arms and spine reach forward and then you lift with shoulders, but with the drawer you might bend knees but you don't bend spine, or at least not to the same extent and the stress is straighter down the backbone instead of requiring upper back bending. We're thinking of different kinds of bending.

If you don't have a lot of dishes to heft, it doesn't matter as much and if you have plastic tableware it matters even less.

Hey, enjoy your cabs whatever you decide.

Every single one of my daily dishes, plates, glasses, cup, serving platters are in drawers. My minimal amount of uppers are used to store my "better dishes" and I hardly ever open those...

This absolutely works well for me! Added bonus, my kids can set the table even though they cannot reach the uppers.

I don't stack my plates. Dishes and platters are vertically stored on plate racks inside of the drawer. I don't have to move (lift up) the ones I don't want to get to the one that I want. I have multiple patterns of matching mix-match dishes. I want to pull out the pattern that I want without moving the others. The plate is grasped near the top of the drawer level, not at the bottom of the drawer, which also decreases the need for bending.

These dishes have to be lined up front to back rather than side to side. When I experiment with having the dishes lined up side to side, there was too much movement and the dishes slightly "clanged" when drawers were being opened and closed.