It appears very much that BM and Dad had some weird agreement in the 'marriage' and were , at least for the last years of their union, married in name only.

Not to nitpick, but even if they were no longer sexually involved or romantically in love, that does not mean they were married "in name only". If they were living together as friends and partners, running a household together, and raising a family together in a relatively happy and healthy environment, then they were married, period. Even if they were not "in love", even if either or both of them were having affairs. (I wont say cheating, because if they were both on board with it, then it wasnt cheating). Perhaps not a marriage I would choose to be in, but most definitely a marriage. The kids, in particular, probably considered it a "real" marriage.

None of that is to say Jess and her DH need to be condemned as horrible people here ever after. My point is just that, as it relates to her (and his) dealings with the kids, diminishing their parents marriage (and, by extension their own family life) by saying "oh, it wasnt a real marriage anyway" may not be the bestest idea in the whole wide world.

I've thought it was pretty common with affairs that the other woman/man is told that it is ok because the other spouse is cheating as well. I mean, that's like the standard excuse. Or the spouses aren't doing it, so it's ok to look elsewhere.

No, I don't think Jess is lying but imo I don't trust people involved in affairs to actually even know the truth. Unless Mom has gone to Jess to say this stuff, I'm not buying it. Dad (from Jess's own words) has not been truthful to her, Mom or the kids.

In either case, I can't find even a remote reason why this would be Jess's concern. I think it was a way to justify poor behavior and is a "reason" to tell yourself what you did was somehow ok. Of course, Jess is not a bad person, she doesn't need branding. But her relationship with her husband and his children isn't going to be based on Moms prior (if any) in discretions. What Jess did, Dad did, Mom did are all totally seperate creatures.

"I've thought it was pretty common with affairs that the other woman/man is told that it is ok because the other spouse is cheating as well. I mean, that's like the standard excuse" - I think there's also the my wife and I are seperated (which could mean she is at work, or at her sick mothers), my marriage is dead (since I met you sweety), and the famous one my wife doesnt understand (doesnt understand what -- why I want to sleep with someone else).

"Of course, Jess is not a bad person" - well I agree with no branding, but not certain how you define bad. Because if some people call stepkids bad for wining, sleeping with a married man would seem to me to rate "bad". But thats just me.

I agree KKNY... that is common. You should have heard some of the excuses my EX came up with. It was ALLLL my fault that he cheated. Majority of our "married-friends" believed him too. LOL. Losers.

I agree with your scale of whining = bad then cheating = badder... but to compare a kid who whines to an adult who does something they know is wrong is just silly IMO. Bad choice. Not bad person.

Jess? Are you still in here? (echo - echo - echo)

If you are, I think we've decided you made bad choices and were a bad girl and may never be able to fully fix this and you majorly screwed with the lives of innocent children.

That being said, I think you've admitted you screwed up and now want to fix it.

Here's my advice, for what it's worth:
Don't let DH pin this on you. You did it together.
Don't try to be the girls friend or SM or buddy or anything. Strive to make a harmonious, conflict/stress free environment for them.
Don't talk about their mother. At all. Unless they bring her up, in which case speak neutrally or as positive as possible.
Don't talk about your relationship with their dad. Let him do that.

DO:

Be positive. kids are resilient and if you and the other adults are stable they will hopefully be stable too.
Spend one-on-one time with each of them. Get to know them as individuals.
Consider deeply your intentions/motivations in this drama. Consider counseling for yourself and find out what made you insecure enough to feel you needed to jump the gun on this relationship. It's not healthy, IMO.

Silver, Yes I am still in here. I have just been reading the debate going on (not wanting to interrupt).I appriciate everything you said and agree. I did make a bad choice and regret it very much. I have told the kids this. Not that it makes it better. I am living the natural consequences of my actions everyday. I know I can not fix this situation. I don't try to be anything to them exept what they want be to be. If they ask for help with homework or projects I am glad to help. If there is anything they need they know I will be there to do whatever it is. I let them come to me. I ask about their day, and activities, I go watch them play ball, dance, soccer. Thank you so much for all the positives. We married so quickly because I sold my house (my brother moved back with my parents because he just couldn't do on his own) I got an offer on my house that was to good to pass up. It was not even on the market yet. Probably not the best reason but in this market I was not going to say no. I culd have rented an apt. but I have 2 little dogs and they need a yard, too much stuff to cram in a tiny space, ect. We had already bought the house together so it seemed like the logical thing to do at the time. Again I appriciate your concern for the kids and our relationship with them. I will take your advice and put it to use I am trying to better the situation and thats all I can do.

FD & KK: You can believe whatever you choose. Makes not one bit a difference to me. That does not change my current situation. You can have you opinions that is your right. I dont have to agree and I don't. For the record: DH nor I would never tell his kids their mother had an affair or anything else about her. Thats her business. She is their mother and we respect her as such.

I can't change the past, I can only try to improve our future.

Question: Has BM told kids any news about live-in girlfriend? To the best of your knowledge were DH and BM living a marriage of convenience where they each had other lovers? Have you and BM been able to become civil yet?

IMO, that is a very crucial step to this working, is the adults being mature enough to be civil for the sake of the kids. I'd say respectful, but... lol!

First, the girlfriend does not live there just sleep over sometimes. That is what we are told. To the best of my knowlege it was a marriage of convenience about the last couple of years. They had been to counciling a couple times that I know of. They had seperate lives but lived in the same house. I know how silly that sounds but thats how it was.
As for BM & I we do not communicate. She will ask the kids things about me that she wants to know. I have over heard them talking to her and can tell she is asking certain things about me. DH asked her before we got married if she wanted to meet with us so that she could ask questions or get to know me a bit because I would be living in the same house when her kids were there. I would want to know the person that my kids are spending time with. But she did not want to do that. Said she was not ready. I can aslo understand that. We are not ugly to each other we just do not talk. We have stood next to eaxh other at events and never said a word. A little awkward though. I put her picture in the girls room so they would feel a little bit better. they miss her alot when they are there so I thought that might help. They were appriciative.

I agree we all need to be civil and we are I guess, we just dont talk. If she needs me to pick up kids somewhere she will text DH then he tells me so it works. I dont think we will ever communicate but we reaaly dont need to. Thats DH & BM business to take care of IMO.

justmetoo, I am nothing but naive. I highly doubt that a mother would be making stuff up about her own daughter, especially about her own daughter ran home terribly upset after she got in an argument with dad's GF over the issue. Do you trully think that KKNY would make stuff up about her daughter?

I don't think it is the same as a cheater making stuff about his ex to save his face, or cheater's GF making stuff up about his ex. I mean seriously if you think it is the same thing then you are naive, not me. KKNY does not come across as a person who lies about her own child. Give me a break.

how do you know she and her GF are intimatelly involved, not like it matters, but how do you possibly know? Unless you saw them making out, you have no ways of knowing.

if like you said before mom agreed for dad to have a GF as long as bills are paid (see march 2009) then why not talking to you now. i suspect that statement about her agreeing for him to have a GF as long as bills are paid is not entirelly truthful.

"well I agree with no branding, but not certain how you define bad. Because if some people call stepkids bad for wining, sleeping with a married man would seem to me to rate "bad". But thats just me."

KK, I think people can make bad decisions (or a string of them) and still be a good person. I also think people who end up being the other woman due so because of low self esteem or previous trauma. I'm not saying they are not at fault for their own choices but I think obviously they are not in a healthier mindframe. And I don't think telling them they are the scum of the earth is going to help that, I have a feeling they already think of themselves that way.

I think in your sitch though that TOW was very deliberate in that she targeted your husband for $$/status from what I gater. I don't think most OW/OM are quite that calculating.

feel better now, finedreams?

You chose to use a real person in your example, not me. All I did was call you on using a silly example to further a point you seemed to wanna make.

You said --"but we do not know if it is true. mom isn't posting here, jess does"-- and I replied that we get only one side of every story presented here. If we're going to base our opinions and responses according to those guidelines in judging a post, then we really have no clue who says anything here that's 'true' or not. If we're going to use those guidelines, why bother to post under anything Jess posts? It's all a lie, right?

That's good that they have a picture of her in their room. I have a picture of my ex in my dd's room.... I put it on the wall where I can't see it when I walk in the room though, LOL.

My ex doesn't talk to my DH very often either, but they are civil on the phone and even jovial at times. It was not like that in the beginning, because even though my ex was cheating on me for YEARS and I didn't know... he thought my DH was TOM and treated him as such. Well, it took years for me to get a divorce, and once I found out my ex was a liar I was over him completely. We had just been "roommates" pretty much for over a year, so for me, when I got 100% confirmation, it was over. Of course to lots of people who weren't involved it looked like I moved on pretty quick but when the wound has been cauterized over a year before it didn't feel like it was moving quick to me. I'd been mentally, physically, emotionally divorced from him for ages.

My poor DH got the brunt of it. We should have waited longer, in retrospect. But I felt like I could do whatever I wanted, my ex did, and I felt pretty bitter that he was then trying to rake me over the coals. And my DH and I waited years to marry, too, so I guess that makes it a little different.

So maybe I'm projecting a little, because I know what it's like for people to just assume the other person is TOM or TOW when really there's a lot more to the story.

Silver, it may have been over for you, but it may not have been over for your kids. Kids deserve a decent time to grieve over the breakup of their family.

How do you mean justmetoo? I feel fine, ate too much for lunch though, but I don't remember saying I didn't feel well.

As about who says what, of course everyone might be lying but if someone says they witnessed something i have no reason not to trust. yet if they say that someone else possibly saw someone else possibly doing something that look like something else, then i do not have any reason to believe it truly happened.

If my DD says she saw their neighbor, i believe she did. yet if she says her classmate heard from her cousin that she saw someone who possibly looked like their neighbour from a far, then i have no reason to even pay attention to it.

I see no reason to believe that just because jess thinks mom looks manly she is a cheater. Or just because the guy, who himself is a cheater, says that some woman staying over at ex's house is her girlfriend whom she had an affair with just because he thinks that. I don't see any reason to believe. If jess would tell me that mom confessed that to her or at least to children and this information came out, then i would believe until then this is what all cheaters say: excuses.

jess truly was TOW because she said mom was OK with dad having a GF as long as dad pays bills. ha, too funny. even if it is true, how is it OK for the kids?

You're right KKNY. And my DD also deserved not to have a daddy who was gone ALL THE TIME b'cause he was cheating on Mommy and all the other drama he inflicted on our family that I will not go into. My daughter didn't deserve a lot. I shielded her from so much I can't even begin to describe. And I did such a good job that she still thinks her dad is a saint. Even though he did his best to drag my name through the mud I took the higher ground. So yes, I lost a lot of friends. Yes, I got branded with bad names, yes, I moved from my hometown because he would not leave and he was violent and aggressive and doing all sorts of horrible things to himself and to me.

I didn't move a new man in right away. I didn't even see him when she was with me, which was ALL the time since I didn't allow her dad to come near either one of us for months due to his actions. But I'm from a small town. Word travels fast.

So if you want me to be made out as the bad person because I didn't allow my DD a proper "grieving time", go ahead. My dd deserved a lot more than he gave her, and by the time I figured out what was going on the damage was done. She's lucky she was too little to remember what he did, his dramas, his actions. I shielded her from a lot. I was young, and innocent, and wanted to believe him, and I was under a lot of stress and the threat of losing everything. I came out smelling like a rose, and my dd is one of the most well-adjusted kids you'd ever meet.

So don't EVEN get on your high horse with me about my daughter and what she needed. What she needed was a healthy mom. What she needed was a healthy home. She didn't need time to "grieve" she needed normalcy and stability. She doesn't even remember her dad and I together. Thank God. She doesn't remember that all the "things" she has at her dad's house, I built for her. That her hope chest was made by me. That her room was decorated by me. That the house was picked out and bought and decorated and the gardens and flowerbeds were created by me. She doesn't remember anything.

Honestly, you just made me sick.

--"1) The divorce clearly states that no love interest of the same or oppisite sex is to stay the night while the children are present unless they are married"--

Well, like I said, we don't get to call witnesses nor view any documentation to verify exact wording of legal document, but even though the posted about BM did not tell me directly nor share any confessions to me, I have no reason to discredit the fact that whether you, I or the neighbor can prove something, the lawyers drawing up the divorce decree thought it an issue to include 'same or opposite sex'. It is not standard wording in all divorce decrees.

And FYI, finedreams, I did not ever in any of my posting say I thought or think a female wearing a suit or dressing in any certain way would mean the form of dress pertains to sexual habits. Got it. Nor do I or did I say or think that lookly 'manly' would state a 'cheater'. But it does not matter what *I* think or what *you* think, when it is stated in decree it does leave open the impression that one or both of the parties may have or may in the future have sexual relations with a same sex, it's not my call to assume Jess is lying and/or making excuses over it.

Sure, you can come back and squeal but, but, but, she's a cheater, therefore has no ethics and morals blah blah blah. You can come back and claim she lied about what the statements are in DH's divorce papers. But if that's the case of how you really think, why in the world are you wasting so much time in a thread except to air your personal view and opinions of cheaters and TOW. If that's what you'd like to do, start your own thread on the subject and debate all you please, this one is suppose to be about Jess getting some advice on helping her stepkids deal with the situation they've found themselves in.

" why in the world are you wasting so much time in a thread except to air your personal view and opinions of cheaters and TOW. If that's what you'd like to do, start your own thread on the subject and debate all you please, this one is suppose to be about Jess getting some advice on helping her stepkids deal with the situation they've found themselves in. "

Ditto.

jess,

My DH has a female cousin who went through kind of a similar situation. She was in a very unhappy, long marriage, there were kids, young adults by the end of it. Her husband had affairs, some pretty openly from what I've been told. In turn, she had an lengthy affair with a slightly younger man. Your basic stud people thought, good looking, on the lookout for a sugar mama.

The husband died unexpectedly from a heart attack. Soon, REALLY SOON to a lot of the onlookers, family and friends her affair with TOM went public and within a year or so of her husband's death they married. Her kids were adults but of course, they resented him. Told her and anyone who would listen that he married her for her money from her dead husband. All of the relatives tsk tsked about it. But it became clear to everyone that the former Other Man loved her, made her happy which her husband didn't and was there to stay. They saw that he was a better husband than her first husband ever tried to be. That didn't make him or her right or their affair right. BUT, he won over the entire family, immediate and extended because they saw that he was loving towards her, committed and despite being TOM, is a really nice guy.

He is accepted now by the family. He did it by just being friendly, not pushing for closeness and being loving to his wife, the mother. I think the best course is to be yourself, be friendly but not pushy , allow them to get to know you while not forcing anything. If they show you disrespect, then your DH needs to handle that since he engaged in the affair with you and is now married to you. Civility as recommended above is a good start but not enough. They need to see your husband stand by you.

Good luck.

Now that's advice!

Don't go hanging on your DH in a bikini or anything like that with those skids around. Sounds silly but the more sexual you are the more they will be reminded of the affair. Comportment, respect, civility, friendliness without pushiness and your husband backing you up. Those are the keys.

If your husband, their dad, is leaving you hanging in the wind with his kids, you have a different problem. He was right there in the mix.

justmetoo, you should not be that concerned why I post and what i post, you know, take or leave it. why does it bother you what i post?

I and others gave jess plenty of advice, she does not want anyone's advice. she got great advice last year from me to not rush into this marriage, she didn't listen. I suggested she acts like their friend not dad's lover, she did not listen.

she continues not listening now about backing off, not criticizing Sks and trying to change them etc.

so far she did not use any of the advice offered by anyone neither me nor you nor anyone else.

Finedreams, I agree with what you posted today.

In some ways that seems the nature of internet forums - people will post in many different forums and in many different ways until they find someone who will give them the advice they want. I think it is human nature to a certain extent to want to be proved "right" by anyone at all.

I think it is unfortunate that Jess doesn't think this is what she is doing, but maybe many of us would be the same.

Jess, from looking at the threads you have started here on GW, it does seem like you post a question about a situation, read and respond to much of the advice given, go off and do exactly what most people warned you about doing, then come back and start another thread about the new, worse situation that you created by ignoring the warnings and ask for advice on how to fix it or prevent more problems. You read and respond in writing to the new warnings and advice and then go off once more to do whatever you felt like doing (moving in with you DH, getting married before the children were ready, trying to turn the girls into "ladies", etc) with no regard for the consequences.

I really think that your impulsivity is getting in the way of your happiness. I could be misreading your posts but it seems like you don't often look at the "big picture" when deciding on a course of action. Instead you are doing a lot of life altering things because it seems like a good idea at the time.

You have over and over received a lot of good advice on this forum. Re-read the latest ones from lamom. Take them to heart. Plan out what that kind of behaviour will look like. Plan out how to say things that will not overstep the bounds of these fragile relationships. Try not to remind the children of your affair with their father. Don't just "wing it" in the moment. These kids deserve better than that. If you want this marriage to last, you have to be really careful not to compound the missteps you made by being TOW.

Good luck to all of you.

Bingo, mary.

I knew there must be other people out there who see it the same way. until jess stops blaming others and trying to change others and stops making impulsive decisions, nothing is going to change.

Thank you lamom. Thats is great advice. Darn, I really love that bikini. LOL. I know what you mean. Thats what I try to do. They know I love their dad and try to be a good wife to him. They dont understand it. If I fix his plate, or get him a drink, or just some of the lil things you do for your loved ones, they ask why are you doing that for him? They are not used to that. When he does those little things for me they dont say anything.

About him backing me up. We have talked about that lately. He thinks he is but the way he does ends up making me look like the bad guy. EXAMPLE: The SS10 always wants to wear shorts in the winter, even to church. I do not like for him to. His mother lets him but I dont. This is the only thing that I make a stink about. Well and going outside with wet hair. Anyway, he will put them on and tell his dad thats all he has to wear. Dad believes him, I walk in see him in shorts, I ask why he is wearing shorts, he said he does not have any pants. BS he has several different pairs in his closet. So, DH makes him change, all the while all teh kids are mad at me because they know I am the one that said something. Its stuff like that. I dont not allow them to wear shorts or sweats to church. Their mom does so I am the bad guy.

I just want him to say no in the beginning without me saying anything. he knows the kid has clothes that stay at our house, he just either does not care or does not pay attention. I'm not sure which. He said he going to work on that and the house rules.

Question: He wants me to make a list, and he will make sure the kids do those things. Do any of you think I should actually do this. I am not comfortable doing this at all. I think it should be common sense about what they need to do and not do. Any suggestions about the list.

Jess:

1. What are your intentions about the shorts in church? I'm of the opinion that God doesn't care what you wear. I'd let it go. If Dad is ok with his son wearing a batman cape and spiderman pjs to church...well...

2. I'm gonna go with a big fat NO on the making a list. Common sense or not, you have not established a strong enough connection with them yet to be the main enforcer. I'm sure Dad does want you to do this... yet another way he is passing the buck. Sorry dude, you need to parent your own kids. And if he doesn't do it to your liking, that's a strong indicator of how different your parenting styles are and something that should be made a mental note of in case you are considering having kids with this man.

I agree that God does not care what you wear. But when it's 20-30 degrees outside shorts are not a good idea. At least if they were anything but gym shorts it would be so bad. But shorts in the freezing temps i just don't agree with.

I 100% agree about the list. Its more for him than them. I already know we are different in parenting. I will be more strict i'm sure. We do plan on having a child but that will be down the road a few years or more.

I am not comfortable doing this at all. I think it should be common sense about what they need to do and not do.

Jess,
If you want them to follow your rules at your house it is your responsibility to explain the rules very clearly (probably several times). Don't expect them to read your mind or absorb your version of common sense.

Common sense is not common and much of it is not sensible (not going outside with wet hair? What is that about?). Take a look around you. Many people will disagree with you on what is and is not "common sense". Many will agree on some issues and disagree on others. That is okay. There is not one best version of common sense. You certainly don't get to decide what is and what is not the best kind of "common sense".

Probably even where you live there are people who think it okay to wear shorts in winter, or shorts/sweats/jeans to church or okay to go outside with wet hair (it does not cause colds!). Most of those things vary from culture to culture and community to community and even person to person. None of them is a moral or even a health issue.

You may disapprove of people who do those things and that is your right. You can have your own standards but the point is do not expect others to share those standards unless you explain and teach them. These are your personal preferences, not rules of the universe that your DH and your SKs should somehow understand and agree with.

If those things are important to you, be prepared to put them down on paper where all the world can see exactly what you expect. Be prepared to explain and defend them if necessary. It is what grown ups do.

If you refuse to be clear it will not benefit you or them. They will continue to not meet your (unstated) expectations, you will continue to be annoyed by their lack of "common sense", your DH will continue to be caught in the middle trying to get you to tolerate each other, the SKs get to see continued discomfort between you and their father and have the defense that you seem to be making these rules up as you go along so how can they be expected to know what you want from them.

The down side of making the list is that you will have to explain why your rules are your rules. That may make you uncomfortable but try and see it as a good thing. It gives you the opportunity to think through what matters to you and why. If you change your "rules" in the face of good arguments from the SKs or your DH, that shows how flexible and open to new ideas you are. You get to say "Wow, thanks, I hadn't looked at it like that before. You guys are sure smart. So I''ll bend on that one."

Making the list also forces you to seriously think about what is important to you and get all those ideas in one place. In several of your threads you have declared something like what you said in this last post. This is the only thing that I make a stink about. Well and going outside with wet hair. This pattern of adding in unrelated rules or preferences as an afterthought may be limited to this forum or it may seem to your SKs that that is how you operate all the time. Making a list will prevent that from happening as much.

You are just one person in your new family, not the big boss. You don't get to set all the rules for everyone based on what you prefer. Having SKs who go out with wet hair is something you may have to bend on even if you don't like it. Tough. Adapt. They have to adapt to having you in their lives and they don't get to set rules for you so that you don't embarrass them. Why should you get to decide how they dress or if they have wet hair when they go out?

You cannot control everything yet you keep trying. Pick your battles. Only chose to fight over things that matter ie life, health or morality threatening issues. All the other stuff is just what you prefer. Don't risk the relationship just to prove you are the boss. Is that the battlefield you want your relationship to die on? If not, don't go there.

I agree with Silver that parenting should be DHs job but Jess has not allowed that to happen. She disagrees with DH's standards and continues to try and impose her own. She has done this over and over saying things like "just this one issue" but she keeps finding new circumstances and new issues.

If she is going to keep imposing her standards on these kids, then she owes it to the kids and DH to be explicit about what her rules are and to limit herself to just the ones on her list. No fair coming up with new rules every time she finds them all in a new situation. And her rules are not "common sense" things that the kids should understand; so far many or most of the ones she has mentioned are her preferences, not some universal rules that are based on moral or life preserving or health protecting bases. Even wearing shorts in 20 or 30 degree weather is not health threatening. Silly, yes. Worth fighting about, no unless church is outdoors and lasts 8 hours. Jess is just trying to impose her preferences, her ideas of what is appropriate on her SKs and IMHO it will backfire just as it has for the past year.

If you keep doing what you have always done, you will always get what you have always gotten. If there is no change, there is no change (to paraphrase someone smarter than me).

I think that many people (including me!) before they had kids, would think, Oh, I would never let my kid do that. And before they became teens, said to themselves oh, my kid wont be allowed to do that. And then guess what, the years go by, and things look different to you when they are your kids.

I think only the bioparents should set rules. Yes, you should talk it out first with DH and if things effect you (like dirty dishes get washed and put in sink) then that is is a legitimate rule, but otherwise, then it should be up to dad. You may at times enforce rules, but if I were you, I would try to avoid being put in that position. It will only create more stress on you.

As to your own kids having different rules, there would be such a big age difference, of course they will have different rules. I doubt a 2-3 YO will compare himself to his half siblings, or say well you let HB do this at my age.. He may regard them, particulalry the older one as more like an aunt.

Oh, Jess, remember 'fixing' the children is a no-no. The shorts and/or sweats at church rate right up there with styling their hair or doing their nails.

Can you see that? You're telling them they must be 'fixed' before you can take them to church. 'I must fix you, again cause "I" don't like you the way you are'...

Does it matter if SS goes to church in sweats to anybody else but you? Best stick to the kind of agreement that says as long as he is clean and neat (whether in dress pants or sweats) face and hands are clean and hair is brushed and no body parts (other than bottom part of legs type thing) are exposed, he's dressed and ready to go. Trust me on this, God won't bellow out 'stop the service, _____ has shorts on'.

Marysdottir: I think you need to start at the beginning of this thread. You have twisted everything. I cant help but think yiu have only read the last few post since it has over 100 responses.
There are no house rules. That was the subject of a previous post.
I dont let my DH parent his kids. You are way out of bounds on this, now you are making things up out of no where.

My point of the shorts story was the boy was lying to his dad. DH does not want him to wear th shorts or sweats either. My DH knew he had pants/jeans to wear. For whatever reason he just said okay. Thats not backing me up. We spent alot of money on nice clothes for them to keep at our house so they would have nice clothes for church and other events that required appropriate attire. As far as the rules I'm pretty sure that would not make my list or be a "universal rule". Again go back read the thread before you start giving advice because you are way off here.

Justmetoo: I do not think its appropriate to wear shorts in he winter. I dont think its in he same catagory as hair/nails/toes. They enjoy doing that. Again they can go or stay makes no difference to me. I dont see it as fixing them at all. Its a fight to get them to take a shower before we go anywhere like church,dinner,ect. So thats right there wih the shorts. I do understand what yiu are saying though.

Jess, I not only read this entire thread, I took the advice of several other posters here and went back and read all your threads and posts on GW. (I've been sick with too much time on my hands this past week! But I wanted to understand what you were talking about.)

I did say to Silver that parenting should be your DHs job but that you dont let that happen. I can see that I was not clear there.

I did not mean that you stop him from parenting. I meant that you don't let him make all the rules about the children, you don't let him be the only person who decides what is and is not appropriate for them. That is what I should have said. You have spoken in some of your posts about the children not living up to your expectations about cleanliness, care of your items, respect for your items, hygiene, dress, manners, etc. Those expectations are what I am referring to when when I talk about the rules you try to impose.

I am sorry that I misspoke in that way but your posts show that you have been trying to impose your standards on these children. You are, of course, free to do that. You have been doing that. You are paying the price for it. If that is what you want, then keep it up.

If you want something else, then you need to change. But as I said above, you don't think that you are doing anything wrong when you impulsively add new expectations onto the children. Maybe you are right. Maybe I am reading in your posts things you didn't mean to say or meant another way. I hope that is the case because otherwise it looks to me like the animosity your SD expressed in the OP might be just the beginning. I really hope I'm wrong and, as you point out, I may be.

If that is the case, so be it. I can live with it because it isn't my family. I just hope that you care enough about your DH and his kids and are open minded enough to at least consider the possibility that you might be contributing to the problem.

I hope that this works out well for you all.

Jess,

One of the colossal mistakes I made with my SS was trying to impose my standards, values and world view on him. It completely bombed.

I bought clothes for him, tried to introduce him to my friends kids his age (he had very few friends as a teen), gave him money for interview clothes (as he got older), dished out a lot of unsolicited advice, he took all the goods and resented it. I helped him to get an interview with a company he SAID he wanted to work for and never called my contact back much to my embarrassment. I tried to fix him and he hated me for it. BM too. DON'T DO IT. Not only does it not work, all you'll get is resentment and problems.

Unless those skids are doing something really dangerous or unhealthy let them do it or let your husband handle it. If your SS wearing shorts to church in winter bothers you, bite your tongue, be glad he goes to church and if he's embarrassing you then go to another service or another church. Apply that thinking to EVERYTHING. When your kids come along THEN you get to raise them your way.

And, anything their mom let's them do is almost impossible to fight so don't try. If it's unacceptable to you then send them home to her.

Be smart.

another prof of you not listening to anything what people say.

you should not be making any lists at all. and you should not monitor what children are wearing. you are facing enough problems already.

"My point of the shorts story was the boy was lying to his dad."

LOL. It's the cocoa again!!!

Ok. I'd run with this, and believe you, except for this...
"events that required appropriate attire"
"At least if they were anything but gym shorts it would be so bad. But shorts in the freezing temps i just don't agree with"

So it is more than the lying. It's shorts in freezing temperatures, and not only that (because shorts would be ok if they weren't gym shorts), they aren't what you consider "appropriate shorts".

Give it up Jess. You have your opinions on what is appropriate, what is ok, etc. If your DH doesn't agree, that's his call. Unless he asks for your input you are along for the ride, not driving the bus. He doesn't need to be "backing you up" because you don't have a leg to stand on. There is no "supporting" you in your arbitrary decisions regarding clothing choices or anything else of little consequence.

Hard to swallow probably.

Drop it. Drop it. Drop it.

"I think that many people (including me!) before they had kids, would think, Oh, I would never let my kid do that. And before they became teens, said to themselves oh, my kid wont be allowed to do that. And then guess what, the years go by, and things look different to you when they are your kids. "

Well said KKNY. It's good advice Jess. I thought parents were awful if their kids had stained clothing, or messy hair, or acted out in public, or did a bazillion things. And then I became a mother. And you know what? Sometimes the kid is gonna have a grape popsicle running down their shirt and you just changed the kid for the nth time and you don't have another shirt and....so what?? (well, I'll tell you. 1/2 dozen women who have never had kids will be standing around.... tsk tsk tsk, look at that neglectful mother!!! LOL)

One thing I learned is that kids run hotter than adults. Most babies are overdressed and overheating. So my little angel who has no coat on may get some shocked looks, and I may get some mean glares for letting her out without a jacket. Like Mary said, wet hair and the cold do not cause illness. Go ahead and glare. I know I'm a good mom.

We're giving you advice. Doesn't mean you have to take it. Leave the clothes, etc. to Dad. If you can't handle a mismatched kid in stained clothing dragging a ratty blanket, get off the bus. Stop grabbing the steering wheel, cause the whole family's goin' in the ditch with you.

I'm one of the 1/2 dozen. LOL I dont have kids, I think it makes me look like a bad mom, like i dont take care of them. Strangers dont know I'm not their mom. They used to pull the "thats all we brought" so they had to wear the shorts or sweats. That was another thread.
DH said that he doesnt like them wearimg the shorts ot sweats to church either. We were in agreement with that, so I thought. SS did lie and DH did nothing about it. He through me under that bus in my opinion. He had to know there were pants/jeans in closet for church.I know leave the clothes. Half the time I think they do it because they know it bugs me.

Whats your thoughts on the cleaning up after themselves, ect.?
Am I expected to be the maid?
Should DH not make them do these things. Granted he will make them pick up their trash out of their rooms about 30mins before they leave but thats it. Do I have a legitiment gripe with that. Its really gross to pick up the smelly wash cloths out of the corner of the tub.
I am not making a list. DH has common sense as to what picking up after yourself is he just will not enforce it.

Mary with the common sense comment I meant DH not the kids in this post and the previous. Again you took they completly wrong.

"DH said that he doesnt like them wearimg the shorts ot sweats to church either."

Either he's lying about caring, or (more likely IMO, from everything else you've written) he's not willing to stand up and be the bad guy himself when you're available to take the fall. Look at all of the other instances where Hubby has taken the easy way out and let you hang...

"SS did lie and DH did nothing about it. He through me under that bus in my opinion."

Oh - see? You see it too...

"DH has common sense as to what picking up after yourself is he just will not enforce it."

Yup -- More of the same...

So -- You get to be 'the bad guy' for the rest of your life.
And don't expect that to change if you have kids of your own.
You still get to be the 'bad cop'.
Every time.
Every kid.

The only difference is that your own bio-kids won't hate you for it.

LOL, silversword. Little one a handful of weeks ago had a dr. appointment for meds and blood work on a school morning. I left her dressed with just her coat to put on while I went out to warm the car and clear the windows.

So we arrive at dr. take off her coat to get weighed and four stops of dribbled toothpaste across her top. Nurse says 'oh, I see you brought some extra breakfast'. Daughter replied, 'no, that must be toothpaste, I checked my face before running out and thought I should double brush my teeth again but Mom yelled in to hurry up the car was ready and we'd be late'.

Instead of the lunch out with daughter before taking her to afternoon classes, we ended up swinging by Target for a cheap (but clean) tee and only enough time to grab a (gasp) happy meal for her to shove in and arrived at school as bell for class was ringing.

Whe I picked DD10 up after school and got home, she took her coat off and I saw she had a drop of mustard from the lunch meal on her clean tee having to juggle lunch in the car. LOL. Oh well, both tops came spot free starting out.

I suppose Jess could just walk fast and sit in a different pew so nobody knew the unappropriate kid/s came with her. LOL.

But seriously, Jess, it does go with 'no fixing' the kids. The most you can do with the SKs if the outfits really bother you would be to have dad take the kids shopping for going out to dinner and church clothes. Let them pick out what they like that dad approves of and the kids like and will wear and have the clothes clean and hanging up to pick from on church days. If on Sunday morning the kids still grab for their shorts and sweats, sew your mouth shut, it's not up to you to 'fix' them. Kinda like a horse, you can lead it to water, but ya can't make it drink. You didn't raise they kids and by their tenn/preteen ages they have already fallen set and comfortable in their clothing taste. You can hope for a change and/or a broadening of likes and dislikes but if you force them or fight them, you'll lose.

I bet there are shorts out there that are kid cool yet parent/step friendly paired with kid cool tops that could be agreeable to all. But if you're set on 'fixing' them and yours is the appropriate way and the one and only appropriate way you're waging a battle you'll regret.

32 degrees this morning and DD went to school in denim capri legging, if she freezes her little legs at recess this morning, oh well. She'll survive. And so will I. I've seen some kids (these are 2-8 graders) get out of cars in the mornings with mid leg shorts on all winter even with a foot of snow and zero degrees (they don't go out for recess under 20 degrees or lots of snow as kids would be kids and have snow ball fights and/or get soaking wet rolling in the snow). Yeah, those mid leg shorts look pretty silly teamed with winter coats, but, hey, kid cool is kid cool.

When I said 'list' on up above I said and meant mental list for you to discuss with DH.

Yeah, over the years I've made a written 'contract' with my now DD29 then teen. But that was way different than what I was suggesting here.

You're not a maid or nanny, so I think it is perfectly okay to discuss with DH what is your 'job' and responsibilty and what is his 'job' and responsibilty on the kid weekends. If DH really does not want kids having to pick up after themselves and/or help out say at getting dinner on the table for 5 people, then in my book, DH can do and help himself. These are his kids. If his kids trash the bath and don't pick up and he does not want to make it an issue, then he can go in after and straighten it up, carry wet towels to laundry or where and whatever.

Same as setting the table, if getting things out of the fridge well you're grabbing the meatloaf (examples only) out of the oven. Trash in the living room, again if he does not want to make kids clean up after themselves then he'd should be cleaning up after them as the weekend progresses. Trash in kids room, ignore it, you have little business in their rooms while they are visiting. After visit, before they leave if DH makes them clean it up, great, if not, DH can clean it, carry out trash, put entertainment items away ect. Just my 2 cents. Grown men are not helpless and grown men who have their children over for the weekend can not expect stepmom to be their maid especially if he has chosen not to teach them to do it themselves.

Around my house we have what is called 'daddy duty' .

"Mary with the common sense comment I meant DH not the kids in this post and the previous. Again you took they completly wrong."

Yeah. Some of that might be because I'm just generally dense but some can be because on these forums participants can only respond to the words used by a poster.

You had said: He wants me to make a list, and he will make sure the kids do those things. Do any of you think I should actually do this. I am not comfortable doing this at all. I think it should be common sense about what they need to do and not do. It was not clear to me that you meant that it should be common sense only for your DH. I thought you meant for people generally, including the kids. I find that people who use the phrase "common sense" are usually referring to some body of knowledge that they think people of a culture share among them. I didn't know that when you use the term "common sense" you mean a body of knowledge shared by you and your DH but not the children. Now I know.

It doesn't change anything that I wrote, though. The problem is you are still expecting someone to read your mind only this time it is your DH. He is supposed to know and agree with all of yours ideas of what is and is not common sense. My comments in earlier posts still apply. We all have different ideas about common sense. It is not very "common".

"DH said that he doesnt like them wearimg the shorts ot sweats to church either."

I got that.

Lots of parents would prefer their kids do things that for a variety of reasons they decide not to implement. We might prefer our kids not wear sweats or shorts to church, just as your DH does, but we choose not to force the issue. We do not implement that as a rule.

Your DH agrees with you about what might be best but agreeing doesn't mean he has to impose that new standard on the kids. See posts above by Silver and Justmetoo among others.

For various reasons parents do not always implement really good ideas with their kids. That is their right. The parent gets to weigh out the variables and decide if, on balance, something is worth doing. That is what your DH is doing.

He did not throw you under the bus. You keep doing that yourself. EXAMPLE: The SS10 always wants to wear shorts in the winter, even to church. I do not like for him to. His mother lets him but I dont. This is the only thing that I make a stink about. Well and going outside with wet hair.

Stop making "a stink" about anything and you wont find yourself under that bus..

Problem is Jess, you have a lot of expectations. That in itself isn't wrong, but you have a family who has an already established set of "rules" and you seem to think your input should be valued.

No, you shouldn't be their maid. And if it bugs you that much, you can go ahead and bug DH. (good luck with that)

You got a "ready made family".

I'm trying really hard to give you decent advice, but I just feel like you're not getting the point.

1. you hooked up with a guy who was already "on the hook" with another woman, his legal wife.
2. you established a relationship with him while he was not "on his own" and therefore was not "himself".
3. you bought a house with him before you could legally sleep in that house with him. (just plain weird, but that's just my opinion)
4. you expect his kids to live by your rules a scant year after you met them and just a few months after moving in with them (because that's what you did. I don't care whose name is on the lease/mortgage).
5. although your dh apparently was willing to leave his wife for you, he's not willing to enforce your rules for his children.
6. Basically, honey, you moved in with a stranger. A bunch of strangers.
7. Kids are entitled (OMG, did she actually say that???) to live in their parents home even if it is part time and to think of that home as theirs. I don't care who you are, you can be kicked to the curb. The kids are there to stay for the duration. They were there first.
8. If their dad is not willing to enforce "your" rules, you need to SERIOUSLY evaluate what made you think you could co-parent with this man.

Honestly Jess, I don't know for an instant what you were thinking. I hope you do.

I pushed about houserules above, and I standby that normal houserules should be in place. But I guess what is included as 'rules' might be debated between different houses.

Kids are not allowed to run and jump (play basketball from main floor to wastebasket on staircase) in our home. Don't care if they are my kids, his kids, our kids or the neighbor kids. My houserule is that kids can not treat our home as an outdoor playground.

I also have a hangup over little kids fingerpainting on our walls. It's not allowed, not even if the picture is super pretty and it took them 10 minutes to do it while I went down to run a load of laundry. Nope, teens do not get to drive nails the sized for building barns in our walls to hang their favorite idol of the month.I don't care how hot the guy is. I don't care if BM/neighbor mom lets so and so do it at some other house, houserules at THIS house say no-no-no.

Tossing food left from a kids plate across round to try and make a 'score' with the trash or the sink disposal? Nope, houserule says, don't even think about it. Banana peel under the couch? No way, I know where your room is and I will come looking for you to properly dispose of rotting garbage.

But that's me. I have houserules. But most of them are similar if not the exact same as I assume other parents have in other homes. To me, these are simple rules of behavior meant for the good of our living environment and respect for others in the home.

Guess houserules would depend on home to home and parent/step to kid.

If houserule at Jess's is going to be 'kids must do and wear only what Jess finds appropriate' , well then houserules will be a bust at Jess's house. Houserules to me are not set based on one person's view of appropriate vs everybodies else's points of view. To me, those types of issues are not houserules, they are personal rules which in my opinion have to be discussed and mutually understand and accepted by all members in household.

A list for DH that Jess writes up and DH then makes kids follow to me is not the same as what I meant when I brought up houserules. I believe Jess was talkking about screaming yelling matches and hide n seek in the dark in the breakfast room when I spoke about lack of house rules.

those are exactly he type of rules I want. Wearing shorts is not a rule. That would not make my list. Not that I am going to make one. I do bug DH sometimes it works sometimes it does not. The screaming & slamming doors is 2 major rules I would like. DH is going to have to make a list or maybe we all can. I'm not sure but I know if I do I will be bad guy once again. My expectations are that they take care of others property, and their own video games, game systems, the expensive items. They have their own rooms and bathroom to trash they dont need the rest of the house. This is their home to and they should be taught to take care of their things. Maybe Iam just weird and picky.

"Half the time I think they do it because they know it bugs me."

exactly, they don't like you so your rulesmeans nothing to them.

yet instead of building relaitonship with them you make more silly rules and they like you even less. so far everything you do is a receipe for disaster.

and truly I am yet to hear anything positive about these chidlren, like nothing at all.

The SS10 always wants to wear shorts in the winter .... His mother lets him but I dont.

Wearing shorts is not a rule. That would not make my list.

Jess, this is called a contradiction. You said things that are mutually exclusive. Either something is a rule or it is not. If you don't let him do something, that means that you have a rule against it.

Why are you trying to insist on things that are so unimportant to you that you say they are not rules? How can the kids tell what is a rule and what isn't? Is the wet hair thing a rule or not? You said it was. Did you mean that? How does anyone know? Do you know?

You are all over the map in your posts. I hope that in your real life with these kids you don't backtrack and deny and deflect like you do here.

Jess, everyone here, biomoms, step moms, stepkids et al including me, a SM, has said the same thing in different ways. I was a little nicer above but you need to put your BIG EARS On. Like I tell my 7 year old, Be a good listener!!!

Butt out of trying to manage those skids. Keep your house rules to safety and basic respect. If they can't live up to those then they can't be with you and DH. Other than that, turn the other cheek! Yesterday, my friend and her daughter stopped by, DS7's room looked like the earthquake hit it but I just apologized to her and let it go. Bigger fish to fry.

Let their daddy and mommy teach them right now. You just work on being accepted. Maybe I should have boiled down the story about my DH's cousin and her Other Man who got married and he was finally accepted...he was loving to her and it showed, he stayed out of the kids way and business, he looked good but not ho'ish and bided his time. And it took some time, as in a few years.

If they are screaming and slamming doors, I'm with you, it's unacceptable. Let your husband, their daddy, be the heavy. Just don't write any lists. He asked for a list, are you kidding me?! Tell him what flys and what doesn't with you and keep your complaints limited, short, important and clear. Meaning, don't include the church shorts. These are His Kids you are talking about. If he can't/won't do it, that's a different thread.

When I married my DH I did not have a child and didn't really understand parenthood. KKNY (for once) is right, most people THINK they know what they will do when they have kids but until they do, don't know. All of us here know this so it does not make you a bad SM. Not at all. Just recognize what you are being told, girlfriend.

There might be a bit of denial here, Jess, in just how you do come across to the kids and/or why you want certain rules or ways.

Remember, I can only go on what you tell us, but I'll assume you are attending the same church you have been attending all along (pre-sks). Yet you tell us:

--"I think it makes me look like a bad mom, like i dont take care of them. Strangers dont know I'm not their mom".--

This confuses me. The people at your church know you, they know the kids are not yours. Yet the SKs must not wear shorts because you think it inappropriate and makes you look like a bad mom. Remember, you're not their mother, and you can't fix other people's children. Is your goal to take the SKs to church for worship or to show them off as little trophies?

If these people are truly strangers, than who cares what they think of you and your 'pretend' kids?

You can't impose yourself on these kids, and you've got to let up on trying to give the appearence of 'the perfect family' on outings. It's stressing you all out and you're not winning the kids over. Is it worth having 'show' kids if in reality the kids hate you for it? Do you really want the kids to continue hating you just so you can impress strangers? If what strangers think of you is more important than building a relationship with these kids, nothing is going to get better or change. Best just order carry out pizza than subject the family to a dinner out that is uncomfortable and nobody enjoys.

House rule, don't slam doors? I could live with that one. I have a 'please don't slam doors', it's not followed regular but mine don't do it to annoy me. Had one (the now DS33) slam the storm door once and broke the glass and he was barefoot. He stood there frozen until DH came and brought him some shoes and helped him clean it up.

I don't like screaming/shouting matches either. I let them work out their own differences within reason, but they gotta take it down to the familyroom or outside. I've found the screaming/shouting matches dry up pretty fast when the neighbors gather on their porches to see what all the fuss is about.

You need to find a happy middle ground that all can live with and go from there. My DS33 asked me once "Mom, did you just make up that rule? I dont' remember that being a rule before" And he was right, and we then (he and I) discussed that 'new rule'that suddenly popped up out of nowhere and sent it back.

Justmetoo, that's the point I was trying to make. Thank you.

Jess, people will look at you and judge your parenting. It's something parents learn, and learn to laugh about. Those who are judging haven't walked a mile in your SS's shorts in winter, LOL!

It was my whole point about the popsicle shirt. The parents who are looking at you, commenting "why don't you care enough about that kid to put a clean shirt on him" don't know beans about kids. Otherwise they would understand, this is the third shirt this morning and even the most prepared mommy can't carry a wardrobe on her back just so he is *perfect* all day.... oh yeahh.... and he's wearing his Superman underoos OUTSIDE his shorts because this week, he is Superman.

My dd has absolutely amazingly colorful taste in clothes, and going out with her can be a trial. Most of the time, I chalk it up to independence.... but sometimes going out in public with a kid in bright orange striped pants, a green flowered shirt, purple shoes, pink socks, teal blue jacket... well. Especially if she wants to put the tu-tu on over it.

I've found heading people off at the pass helps too. BEFORE they can say anything, say, "isn't it amazing how impervious he is to the cold!" I say stuff like "isn't it great.... she dresses herself ALL BY HERSELF" LOL. My dd feels like a superstar, and the other person smiles.

DIFFUSE. Put the fire out. It's not your battle.

I give. I understand let them wear what they choose.

I talked to DH about the houe rules, slamming doors, screaming, those things. Comon ground is all I want. Sounds great. We are going to try some new things I hope they will be positive to our household.
Thanks again