That is interesting because I don't think most Real Estate Agents think of themselves as targets, yet there is a certain portion of the population that would target us. And we don't think of potential customers being crazies, or maybe ignorant is a better description.

In the Carter case, the (alleged) murderer says he targeted her because she was a "rich broker" despite the fact that statistically, few agents make more than $100K per year. (The 25%-75% percentile is $27K-$62K)

We had a murder here at a Real Estate office where an armed man came in looking for cash, thinking that homes sell for hundreds of thousands of dollars so naturally a brokerage would have lots of money in their office (?!?!). He beat up the woman in the office and killed the man working there at the moment. I'm sure neither of them thought they would be targets for armed robbery.

I hope that after this tragedy, more of us will use that "gift of fear" (intuition perhaps?) to prevent another occurrence.

Fluff. I have not read this particular book, but so many of the so-called advice manuals are written with what passes for wisdom at first hearing of the statements, but have little to do with reality. Think about it. Seriously, REALLY think about it.

I don't get on the elevator with the lone man, and get on the next empty elevator. The elevator door opens at a floor before the one I plan to get off on. Someone comes in and assaults me because I'm alone. Maybe it would not have happened if the first lone man was in the elevator with me. OR insert this one after taking the next empty elevator: While riding the elevator alone, it stops at an earlier floor than I want and a man gets on. If I remain on the elevator, I get assaulted. OR: Afraid to ride in the elevator with just him, I get off on the unfamiliar floor to take the next empty elevator. The person/people on the unfamiliar floor decide I'm an easy mark, and assault me.

Any of these happen, and many people will blame the victim no matter which safety choice was made. Just choose the one that fits the circumstance. 1. She should not have gotten on the elevator with the lone man. 2. She should not have been riding the elevator alone. 3. She should not have remained on the elevator when the other person got on. 4. She should not have gotten off the elevator on the unfamiliar floor.

These types of so-called rules have more to do with making the reader/listener feel safe in an unsafe world. An 'I would not have done that, so that won't happen to me' feeling. Look at the missing agent thread: Should not have gone there alone. Should have carried her phone in her hand. Should have photographed id at office prior. Should have had a gun. etc.

I am a believer in trusting intuitive instincts about situations and making choices to help stay safe. But sadly, bad things happen to many good people. And there is no real defense against criminals with such an irrational brain that murdering someone for a cookie, with a 97% chance of them being convicted for the crime, is a choice they are willing to make.

The book isn't fluff, as you'd know if you'd read it or any part of it.

The author is a respected security consultant;
he knows what he's talking about.

"bad things happen to many good people" is true enough, but fatalism is hardly a helpful policy.

Many bad things can be prevented.

My bad things comment was a statement, not a fatalism belief. As is clear from the sentence preceding: I am a believer in trusting intuitive instincts about situations and making choices to help stay safe.

The point was, how does not getting on the elevator make her safer? If the vibe when seeing the man in the elevator made her uneasy, then yes, by all means she should trust those instincts and take another lift. But I don't think delaying just for seeing someone else in the elevator (edit to add: lacking those warning vibes) improves the odds of preventing something bad from happening, for the reasons I posted earlier.

This post was edited by Gyr_Falcon on Fri, Oct 3, 14 at 22:32

deleted posting

This post was edited by azmom on Sun, Oct 5, 14 at 16:16

Read the book if you want to;
don't read it if you don't want to.

I found it enlightening & helpful.

I will step in and also say that I have read the book and found it useful. The bottom line lesson is that women (and men) have a wonderful instinct that tells them when something isn't quite right. And that unfortunately, we often ignore that instinct for stupid reasons like running late, trying to be nice, not wanting to appear discriminatory, etc. The book basically says that when your gut is telling you something is wrong or not to do something, listen.

For example, take this recent realtor case. The guy may have given her the heebie-jeebies -- she might have sensed that something wasn't quite right. But fear of pissing off a potential client and her logical brain saying "I'm just being silly - nothing is going to happen" probably outweighed any potential gut instinct she had. I know that as a runner who often runs on wooded trails alone, I've been guilty of the same thing -- most people I see on the trail don't raise my alarm bells but there have been a few that have weirded me out -- and more often than not, I talk myself into squelching that feeling with "come on, nothing is going to happen, this is a safe area, you've got mace in your hand, just run by him fast and you'll be fine -- if you turn around and go a different way, you'll never be home in time for the kids to get off the school bus." It's amazing how easily practical concerns like that can trump that little voice in your head that says "danger!" and this whole thread is a good reminder not to do that -- in fact, I might dig out my copy of that book and give it a re-read.

Incidentally, the author also has one called Protecting the Gift. It's about kids and protecting them from kidnapping, sexual abuse, etc. Also a great book -- and again, the main point is to listen to your gut. It also does a great job of showing how parents worry about the wrong things -- everyone worries about stranger danger or getting grabbed off the street but your kids are far more likely to be abused or hurt by someone known to them. (Same for the book targeted toward women -- people fear the random assault but women are far more likely to die at the hands of a boyfriend/domestic partner which is something the book does a great job of addressing.)

Read it or don't, dismiss it if you want, but I don't consider myself a "pretty dumb woman" and I found it very enlightening.

This is interesting now.
I'm glad that the book doesn't make everyone paranoid about low-risk scenarios because I am a free-range parent myself and those helicopter parents make me crazy. My kids walk, bike and take the bus by themselves, and have done so for years. The single thing I am most scared of is them driving (themselves or with friends or even friends parents) after midnight - we tell them that we'd rather have them stay over - because so many bad accidents happen in the wee hours of the morning.

One thing though, that I was taught in self-defense a long, long time ago, goes against natural impulse. And that is if a woman is grabbed by a bad guy, women tend to be passive and think they can talk themselves out of the situation. The lesson I was taught was to run, kick, struggle, fight, escape - whatever it takes. Do not let yourself be dragged into the car (or house in this instance) no matter what kind of weapon the assailant has.
They taught us some gun statistics and even if the guy has a gun, if you are running away, the chances of you being shot is very low, and being killed is very, very low. But if you get into that car, the odds of being killed is very, very high, so take the bullet and run, no matter what.

The problem with "listen to your instincts" is that your instincts are actually going to be tingling A LOT. And most of the time, not listening to them is the right thing to do. When do you decide to override your instincts and live your life and when do you decide that the "tingling" is right?
You can't live your life always listening to your instincts. Our ability to reason and think is why humans have become the top dog in the food chain.

"Read the book if you want to; don't read it if you don't want to.
I found it enlightening & helpful."

Nobody knows better than a person who was raised with uncertainty and abuse, how to avoid situations that can be dangerous. I'm glad he (Debecker) took his 'healing' to such a high level.

"Debecker and his two younger sisters moved from apartment to apartment, on welfare, on food stamps, with their heroin-addicted mother and various abusive stepfathers."

Anyone would benefit from reading his book(s).

Thanks for sharing Sylviatexas.

Thanks to all.

The point isn't whether to get on the elevator or not.
That's just an illustration.

The point is, even when something (our fear, our instinct, or even our own observation) is telling us NOT to do something, we squelch it instead of paying attention to it.

Here's a couple stories of instinct from my solo travels to 3rd world countries.

El Salvador: I took a bus to the foot of a volcano and started hiking up the path. Ahead of me I saw a young man step out from the bushes on the side of the path. My hackles went up, so I stopped walking towards him. As he walked, he turned a bit sideways and I saw that he was concealing a knife behind his back. Yeah, he was planning to rob me. I retreated back down the path until I reached a group of people all walking together. I asked if I could join them for safety and they obliged me. When we got back to where the guy had been, he had disappeared. Good to follow the gut.

Zimbabwe: There was a solar eclipse while I was there, so chose to watch it from the banks of the Zambezi, on the border of Mozambique and Zimbabwe. It happened late afternoon, and my intent was to travel onward afterwards to the next town to spend the night. There was no local transportation (i.e., bush taxis) going there, so I had to hitch. I found a group of 4 men, South Africans and Zimbabweans, a mix of races, all of whom were working on clearing mines and building roads off in the direction I was headed. They agreed to give me a lift. We headed off in their Land Rover over horrid dirt roads for hours, stopping occasionally for smoking/pee breaks. My seat was on the console and my job was to keep the driver plied with whiskey from a thermos (slow going on roads, and virtually no oncoming traffic, so that didn't worry me too much). In the wee hours of the night, we stopped for a smoke break and the driver said to me, "let me show you something" and picked up a large holstered knife that had been laying on the dashboard. An intense shot of "holy @#$%! this guy might be about to kill me!" went through my whole body. I could do absolutely nothing, as running off the road had a high probability that I'd hit a land mine. Plus we were in the middle of who-knows-where with zero possibility for help. He proceeded to unsheathe the knife and tell me of its origins and history. Absolutely nothing sinister. My adrenalin slowly subsided, we eventually got back in the Land Rover, and continued on our way. They ended up putting me up for a couple days in their trailer camp, and I got to hear their war stories and learn about how to build roads. Total story of instinct wrong, though I'd sure rather have the sense and be wrong a couple times then miss a danger cue.

'I'd sure rather have the sense and be wrong a couple times then miss a danger cue.'

Here's a story on my own self interpreting a 'cue':

I was taking a walk through the neighborhood one day after work when a roofer called to me from the top of a neighbor's house:
"Hey, Lady!"

I couldn't believe it!
heckled from the rooftop!

This wasn't a construction site where guys did this kind of thing just because they could:
this was my nice little neighborhood!

I turned slowly, deliberately (so he could get the full effect of my incensed reaction) & glared at him & said frostily, "Yes?"

He said, "Could you put our ladder back up against the house? Our boss man went to the store for more supplies & our ladder fell down & we can't get off this house."

so I did.

but as weedy said (paraphrased), better to have been alert & wrong than to have been trusting & wrong!

I'm a big believer in instinct...I think most humans unwittingly pick up on subtle behavioural cues from other humans and part of what can raise your hackles is those cues.

I've refused to be alone with people who creeped me out. I've been approached on the street a few times by strange men who tried to hustle me to more secluded locations. Definitely didn't go there! Once I took refuge in a friend's store for over an hour, as I was close to home and didn't want the stranger to know.

That said I think socialization (e.g. racism) has led to some very tragic situations where people "followed their instinct" believing they were in danger and hurt or killed innocent people as a result. Nothing is sadder since two lives are then ruined.

This post was edited by robotropolis on Wed, Oct 8, 14 at 23:16

Sylvia, I've read that book too and I thought it was very well done.

He does a good job explaining how (some) women are socialized to be nice, get along, not make waves, etc., and how that tendency to not want to hurt anyone's feelings can get you into trouble when you don't listen to what your own instincts are telling you.

I'm not a particularly passive person. Despite that I learned several useful things from this book and I recommend it to people all the time myself.