Kim, today I read your entire article on HMF "I am NOT an expert" but I have to disagree, you really are!! After reading up on Renae I'm convinced that's what this rose is like you said, except it doesn't seem to have a strong desire to climb. Of course that's just for me, in my climate with my horticultural practices. Southern Louisiana is a very specific climate to grow in. I do think it's a great place for me to carry out my lifelong breeding goals since if a seedling can survive Louisiana's black spot infested humidity and heat it'll be off to a good start! Thanks for the good luck Judith! Also to anyone interested and curious, I have ripening hips on a couple of roses with this rose, 'Renae' as the pollen parent: a few of (Smooth Ballerina x Renae) and a lot of (Thomas Affleck x Renae). I bet those seedlings will be smooth as silk! I can't wait to one day share my creations with everyone!

Oh NO! That doesn't sound very funny to me. That sucks.Have you heard from Verizon yet? I hate calling them. I have wasted so many hours of my life on the phone with those guys. Their fav thing to do is transfer you cause nobody ever knows anything. Guess the good news is you got your roomate to help you do something. Mine's worthless.

My Mom forgets who I am most of the time. But, I really enjoy visiting with her and taking her out to lunch and shopping. We almost always run into someone who knows her that stops to chat. (advantages to a small town) Gayle

Based upon what Prarie love wrote, at least some people do believe that hypothyroid-induced seizures are common. Being hypothyroid and having seizures are not necessarily related, though they certainly can be. Unfortunately being that most animals do not get regular annual (twice yearly for older pets) bloodwork when they are healthy, but most people will get bloodwork done when their pet has a seizure, it is often the case that low T4 is discovered right after an animal has a seizure. But the seizure itself can cause low T4, and once the animal's seizures are controlled the T4 returns to normal- or not if the animal is on phenobarbital. This is euthyroid sick syndrome- normally functioning thyroid that is temporarily suppressed due to another disease. Euthyroid sick syndrome can be caused by any disease, including a disease that causes seizures or the seizures themselves. It doesn't hurt to judiciously supplement thyroid hormone in an emergency while waiting for a full thyroid panel, which takes 1-2 weeks (having just gotten one for my dog) as long as you don't go overboard, as oversupplementing thyroid hormone can be cardiotoxic. But you are not really controlling the seizures, you are actually preventing further seizures. In other words, even if a dog's seizures are caused by hypothyroidism, giving thyroid hormone won't do anything to stop the current seizures (explaination follows). The full thyroid panel can sort out euthyroid sick syndrome from true hypothyroidism if it is done prior to starting phenobarb, usually. Some pets refuse to be classified, like my own dog. I did a LOT of reading on this lately because my pathologists were stumped when I asked how hypothyroidism, which causes decreased cellular activity, could possibly cause seziures, which are caused by increased cellular activity. I would have asked the neurologists, but they were in rounds and then left before I could catch them. But I did find the info myself, and it seems that hyperlipidemia (VERY high serum triglycerides and/or cholesterol) may lead to atherosclerosis and then ischemic encephalopathy (low oxygen to the brain) due to hemorrhage or thrombus, causing seizures or other CNS signs (called a stroke in people). There are many causes for hyperlipidemia, hypothyroidism is one. One study showed that dogs that had atherosclerosis were 51 times more likely to be hypothyroid than dogs who did not have artherosclerosis (they showed similar results for dogs with diabetes mellitus). Hyperlipidemia may also cause hypercoagulable syndrome where an animal throws clots, which can end up anywhere. Clinical signs are referrable to location of clot, so if a dog threw a clot into the brain, that would also cause ischemic encephalopathy and possible CNS signs or seizures. Of course, bloodwork would pick up hyperlipidemia (well, a complete panel would show both cholesterol and triglyceride levels; some in-house machines can't do this), so waiting for a thyroid panel just tells you why the hyperlipidemia is present. Because hyperlipidemia may have causes besides hypothyroidism, it is much more important to include cholesterol and triglycerides in a seizure work-up than to include thyroid testing. You can always go back for a cause of hyperlipidemia if needed. That said, you need to have a full thyroid panel done before a pet is placed on phenobarbital because that drug suppresses thyroid hormone in some animals. It does not always cause clinical disease and may not always need to be treated. Once on phenobarb, it is very difficult to impossible to sort out true hypothyroidism from phenobarb-induced thyroid suppression. Without clinical signs though, there doesn't seem to be a need for treatment. Atherosclerosis appears to be rare in dogs overall, but common in dogs with hypothyroidism and diabetes mellitus. The actual incidence is unknown because you need either MRI, CT, or a necropsy to diagnose it. Most people don't have access to MRI or CT for their pets either because of expense or because it isn't available. And most people refuse necropsy. The unfortunate part about atherosclerosis is that once it is in the brain, you can't get rid of it, even by treating the underlying cause. If you can get the animal to stop having seizures and if there isn't too much permanent damage and if you can treat the underlying cause, you may be able to prevent more seizures depending upon how much of the brain is affected by atherosclerosis. The damage is done, and you have to prevent further atherosclerosis by treating the disease. In some cases, the damage to the brain may be too great and the patient dies despite best efforts, even if the cause was "just" hypothyroidism. Controlling hypothyroidism would also prevent further seizures due to hypercoagulable states caused by hyperlipidemia, but the same "ifs" apply. This is why supplementing thyroid hormone when presented with a seizuring animal isn't really necessary, even if the seizures are caused by hypothyroidism. You do need to control the hypothyroidism, but that can wait until the animal stops seizing and you have at least a clue of whether or not the animal is actually hypothyroid. It appears that the reason hypothyroidism is a rare cause of seizures in dogs is that most cases of hypothyroidism are diagnosed and treated long before a patient develops clincally significant hyperlipidemia and subsequent atherosclerosis. It seems that mild hypothyroidism without clinical signs does not cause the a high degree of hyperlipidemia, so the risk of seizures in this case is very small. I guess if you ignore the clinical signs long enough and don't do screening bloodwork on a regular basis, a dog could have severe hypothyroidism and seizures. BTW, collies are prone to hyperlipidemia without hypothyroidism, so in the case of poor Shelby, testing cholesterol and triglycerides is much more important than thyroid testing. You have to know what is common in certain breeds and ages, otherwise you end up running every test in the book and that is a waste of time, money, and effort.