aj
I've been following your saga - so sorry to hear - hopefully you can get some resolution.

I would offer the benefit of the phone call - wait 2-3 days for response & have letter ready (which you will need for legal proceedings)
I would start it :
Mr. X
Just wanted to follow up with you regarding xyz
As you know, this was a concern of mine prior to your install as I wanted "use thinset b/t the subfloor (3/4" OSB) and the concrete backer (1/4" Hardibacker)"
I have come to find out this seems to be the culprit to the problem we have been experiencing since 6 months after the install.

I would appreciate response to this letter within 14 business days.

Send it certified return receipt
keep a chronology of install, conversation/communication, follow up repairs etc... you'll need it
and good luck

Sorry to hear about your current experience. For what it is worth, an installer's insurance is not going to help you with respect to the installation problems. The insurance does not exist to guarantee a contractor does a good job but rather, to cover losses caused by the contractor as a result of the work being performed. For example, poor workmanship-- where limited to the thing being worked on-- is not insurable; however, if the contractor breaks or damages something else in the process (e.g. your cabinet door), that would typically be covered.

I'd be demanding the whole thing be redone on his dime. If he's not willing to do it, get it done and sue him. It's being done more and more these days, because of contractors over the last few years who've come in, blasted out the work, taken the check and ran. Now it's going to catch up with them. I feel bad for the homeowners having to deal with this, but with reference to the contractors, I say it's about time. Alot of people who thought all they needed was a wet saw and a trowel to call themselves tile installers are about to find out their "careers" have been cut short.

Bill - I emailed you. Put my old pics form last year on Photobucket and took pics of new loose areas. Cautionary tale - if anyone wants to see the gory details of what can go wrong with improper installation!

Here is a link that might be useful: Slideshow

Oops - does anybody know how to share a slideshow?

I just dug out my receipts (missing some grout receipts but it was under $20 for the grout for foyer). Came out to $5000. Of that, $3416 was for his labor and thinset (I supplied the rest of the materials, I got a great deal on discontinued tile for foyer and tile I loved for kitchen that was discontinued after I bought it). Is it worth getting a lawyer to try to get $5K back? Or would I sue for demo and replacement costs (plus legal fees), can't count on finding replacement tile for less than $2/sf? n Plus one to two weeks of not living in the house (all through foyer, kitchen, mudroom so no entry) while it's being demo'd and replaced? DH says just live with it, try to fix loose spots we have now, and in another 8-10 years we'll probably reno kitchen and FR, tear everything incl. foyer out then? That would mean eating the $5K, letting the installer get away, but maybe it's worth $500/yr *not* to have the hassle of replacing 2-yr old flooring right now? It could turn out to be involved legal battle and we might not get the $ out of him anyway, plus we'd be out the lawyer's fees. I'm just worried we're going to have to replace 30sf or more of tile *every* year til then, based on the last year's experience.

Any opinions?

Try small claims court as some have fairly high limits these days. Also...does your state license home improvement contractors? If so, you could use that as leverage in terms of reporting him in an effort to get him to pay you for a new install...as I'm sure you don't want him doing this all over again.

I certainly *don't* want him working in my house again! Not only did he do a poor job of installation, but he's careless with my possessions/house. Not only did he damage the cabinet door on initial installation (and deny it), but he marked up all the walls both times he was in, with tool belt and with plywood that he was using to kneel on while grouting. Plus he put a wet sponge on my bottom step last time he was here - and the steps are just waxed, not poly'd so i had to sand down the lifted grain and rewax.

I will check and see what limit is for small claims - I think it's $2500 here in CT. But if I can get more (than $5K so I can pay for demo and retiling, not just recoup initial expense would be nice) that sounds good. I don't think he'd come and do demo and reinstall for free (not that I want him to), sure won't just send me a check if I ask. It was hard enough to get my house key back from him - and he didn't send back the keyring that DS had made for me :-(.

I will also call and send a backup letter saying that I will report him to state (I do have his license number) and BBB. Any suggestions on wording?

Looks like the limit is $5000, six years statute of limitation. I came up with $4989 forgetting about spare deco tiles ($60 - now useless unless I can some of the installed ones out w/o breaking and figure out new pattern) and some grout I couldn't find receipt for, and the $800 I paid the electrician for radiant heat under the tile. Will be 2 years this August since I paid him. Don't need a lawyer. So it's worth it to go for the lower limit for original cost recoup, and not try to get replacement costs paid. Or the cabinet door he damaged that I had touched up replaced. Hopefully there's some way to salvage the electric heat mat? At least we can reuse the thermostat.

Still need suggestions for wording of notification - as a courtesy since he is an in law of an "outlaw" relative (my mom's stepbrother' BIL).

I just was wondering - if I wanted to recover the entire cost of retiling (including new tile which will probably be more than $2/sf, and new radiant heat mat plus electrician's labor), would it be worth pursuing through my homeowner's insurance? During construction I still had $1000 deductible, but I'm assuming that insurance company would pursue him for reimbursment, including their legal fees and my deductible?

I don't think so, unless your policy has some kind of rider to protect you from incompetent tradesmen. Your best bet at this point would be to get into a lawyer for a consultation. He'll be able to tell you what the local laws are regarding your situation and advise you accordingly.

I am trying to think of a way to salvage the radiant heat mat. I really don't want to try to pull it up (soak it off? Will old thinset soften if we let water stand on it - with power disconnected of course)? And then I'd be afraid to reuse it.

Anyway, I was thinking that either

1) We pull up all the tile and the CBU in the areas not covered by radiant heat (this would be all the foyer, PR, coat closet, most of kitchen) - leaving the parts that we haven't had problems with yet (mudroom). This would require we carefully cut out the CBU at the edges of the mat/tile closest to mat, and also in the doorway from kitchen to mudroom. I have enough leftover tile (different batch but same color so should be close) to do the 150 sf of kitchen that we had problems with last year and currently, plus the little under & in front of fridge and DW that we haven't had problems. Putting thinset under new CBU would raise the floor slightly in these areas, but I don't think a little lippage in doorway to mudroom would be that noticeable, and it actually might straighten out the slope I have at the end of the heat mat (where he didn't level it out to bring to same height as with mat and layer of thinset under the mat - about 3/16"?). There would be no lippage where kitchen met foyer since we are pulling up all the tile and CBU in foyer same as adjoining area of kitchen. I just have to find tile I like for foyer (has to be green now that I've painted foyer, stairwell, hallway, LR and DR green to match original tile.

2) Same as above, except that we carefully pull up tile on top of mat following nuheat's instructions for replacing a broken tile, cut out CBU not covered by mat, and install completely new tile throughout kitchen and mudroom as well as foyer - about 400 sf total. We would leave the non-bedded CBU and the heat mat alone and hope it works when we cover with new tile.

3) same as #2 except use HW (not Brazilian Cherry since can't use radiant heat under it) - would be higher over mat by thickness of CBU, thinset, and mat - about 1/2"??? But maybe we could gradually slope it away from edges across the 8ft from edge of mat to opposite wall (where it meets DR cherry and the foyer which we'd do in BC as well)? Only thing is, we'd probably want to do the FR in the same HW, replace 2 yr old carpet that was $40/sy, that's about another 300sf. And I really don't want HW in mudroom, so would we leave the tile alone there as in #1, or rip it out and retile that room with thinset under CBU as in #2?

4) Pull up currently loose tile, screw the heck out of the CBU that's there, replace the tile out of my spares, and hope it holds for another year or two (or 3) and they raise the small claims limit? We have 4 more years under the statute of limitations. Then sue for total replacement including cost of radiant heat.

You can tell I really don't want to deal with this right now, when we have all new appliances that would have to be moved, would have no entry to house for a week, and still am trying to finish baseboards and casings and touchup paint due to settling cracks in new house.

I am so mad! How much more would it have cost for another layer of thinset (materials and time) for him to have done this correctly, before we moved in? Not much! Esp. since I told him that Hardi instructions said to use thinset under the CBU you think he could have obliged, even if he wanted to charge me another $100 to do it!

I have two comments. First, you're almost certainly going to end up with breaks in your heating system. Just as likely, it'll be multiple breaks. However, Nuheat DOES have a gadget that can help you locate breaks to fix them before you tile over it all. That said, it all depends on how the tile comes up. I have a feeling you'll find that in some areas, the thinset will stick to the tile. In others, it'll stick to the CBU, and in still others, you'll have a good bond and it'll be stuck to both surfaces. It all depends on how it comes up where the wires are as to whether or not you'll be able to save the system or not.

Secondly, with reference to the statute of limitations, the longer you wait, the less chance you have of winning your case. The problem is that YOU know it's due to bad workmanship and why. I know, and your lawyer will know. But to a judge who doesn't know squat about tile-- there are things that manufacturers recommend just to cover their butts every day, and alot of times it really doesn't mean much in the whole scheme of things. This is not one of those times. But if you wait, you may not be able to prove that. The attitude may be that you've had this floor for 7 years now. Even if you do have a valid claim, he may pro-rate it.

What do you think of option #1 - pulling up all the foyer (that is just starting to make crackling noises, some cracked and falling-out grout) and the main aisle of the kitchen that has given us problems (even the part he fixed last year that so far so good), but trying not to disturb the Nuheat part and leave the mudroom that so far so good alone? I could still take him to small claims for the $5000, but wouldn't have to buy new tile for the kitchen, just the foyer (that I decorated my LR and DR around!).

You saw the photos I emailed you - most of the thinset was stuck to the CBU, not the tile. Of course, once we start pulling up tiles that aren't making noise, we may find it's pretty well stuck and end up breaking them. That's why I'd like to wait and see if more areas start going - with luck, I could salvage tile (and I'm just not into pulling apart almost half the ground floor of the house). Still go to court now, though, since you said the longer I wait the less chance of a settlement. As far as pro-rating, if I had same guy "fix" areas now, then still had problems, couldn't I go back and say that this has been on-going and the "fixes" have just been bandaids, it needs a total replacement?

The question would then be why'd you wait so long. As for the heating system, I really think you're going to have a problem with it, the more I think about it, being that the cement board underneath it isn't any different from the cement board anywhere else on the floor. If you're going to do this, it should be done right. now, that's real easy for me to say sitting here at my desk. I know it's not my purse strings, or my home that's about to get ripped up again. But if you want to get this over and done with, do it right, or it'll come back to haunt you. Tear the whole thing up, and redo it, because sooner or later it's all pretty much going to come loose.

Thanks - so many things going on here, I can't even think to file the claim. But say I do call him tomorrow or next week, and tell him it all has to come up. He refuses to do anything/pay anything, I file. It could take a while to go to court - so can I fix things as best I can til then? Or do I have to leave it alone? Once we get a decision, do we then have to immediately tear it up if I file the claim just looking for original costs back? Or can we live with it until I find tile I like, and installer I trust, and have some time when we can move out of the house for a week or so?

See a lawyer and ask him. I'm telling you-- that's your best bet at this point. The consultation fee is minimal, if (s)he charges anything, and the lawyer can tell you for sure what can and can't happen in your jurisdiction.

OK, should I give installer a courtesy call b4 I talk to lawyer, or wait?

No. Go to the lawyer first, and ask for his direction.

Thanks - I'm drafting an email to lawyer who handled our escrow for modular purchase. CT has a Home Improvement Guaranty Fund all the licensed contractors pay into, that will pay up to $15K of a settlement if contractor doesn't make good. Looks like 2 year from signing is limit, so we've got to get cracking! Do you recommend asking for replacement costs? Last year handyman told me $4200 to demo, then of course figure app. 500sf of tile - original contract based on 488sf (I think it might have been closer to 400, but with replacing tiles out of my spares last year I've lost track of how much it actually is) - plus other materials, Nuheat replacement, what's a good estimate given I haven't picked replacement tile yet?

Speaking of cracking, the "Rice Krispies" and tile not stuck to CBU was b/c of not good bond b/t tile and CBU - so how do I explain to lawyer and judge that the root of all was lack of thinset/bond b/t CBU and subfloor? If tile was stuck to CBU, even if CBU moved independently of subfloor, wouldn't the tile have just cracked instead of coming loose?

Thanks Bill, do you mind if I give your email address to my lawyer?

Don't go with a "handyman" estimate. Get a tile contractor in there to give you a bonafide estimate. I have a feeling it'll be more than that, and yes, go for replacement costs, and yes, you can give my email to the lawyer.

so how do I explain to lawyer and judge that the root of all was lack of thinset/bond b/t CBU and subfloor?

That's the problem. It's NOT a matter of lack of thinset bond. The thinset is not there to bond one surface to the other. That's the very LAST thing you want. It's there as a bedding for the cement board, so that you won't get minute vibration between the two layers. That vibration, as a result of the thinset not being there-- THAT'S what's causing your failure, IMO.

So the thinset acts as a damper or an isolation barrier to counteract the bonding action of the screws? Or does it simply act as a "backer" to the backer board, so that if there are any dips in the subfloor between screw, the tile and backer won't be pushed down (breaking the thinset b/t them) when you walk on those areas? Even if those areas are only 6"-8" apart (if installed per pattern on the Hardibacker - he might not have even screwed them in per the pattern according to what handyman saw when he pulled back insulation in basement ceiling)?

Wondering if we should install plywood under 1/4" Hardi (or instead of 1/4" Hardi though I like the water resistance) when we go to replace, just to stiffen up the floor?

Thanks Bill - as always, you are a treasure trove of info!

Sorry Bill - more questions. I bought a canister set that has a metal carrier the other day, the metal is a little bent I guess it doesn't sit flat on counter. Anyway, I was walking by the island and the canisters rattled. Ok, I'm not as petite as I used to be ;-) but doesn't that indicate deflection? How much? The back of the island cabinets are tied to a pony wall, and under the cabinets (not quite under the studs) the joists are blocked.

My 5-yr old (40 lbs) was also just jumping in the LR in the front of the house as I was sitting here typing, and the sleeper sofa I'm sitting on moved! Didn't walk across the room or anything, but the floor definitely vibrated - and the joists are separate in front/back of the house, just tied together with sandwiched 2x10 beams supported by lally columns as I described in earlier thread (email?).

So even if calculations are showing L/360 or better, does my floor need stiffening? Isolation? Les rambuctious kids and mom on a diet (don't know what we can do about Dad - even if he lost 40-50lb he'd be the same as mom is now)?

What exactly do you have for joists right now? I'm assuming 2x10's? If not correct me. Also, what's the length from foundation to centerbeam (unless your basement is finished), and what's the on center spacing of the joists?

I've got 2x10's in what DH says is probably spruce? 16" OC, 13 ft from centerbeam to foundation with double sill plate. App. halfway they are blocked b/t each joist. The center beam is actually 4 2x10's laminated in pairs (front and back modules) with looks like 1/2" ply, then the 2 pairs are laminated with more 1/2" ply b/t and bolted together. Supported by lally columns with footings under the slab (poured afterwards) app. every 7 ft. Subfloor is 23/32 Sturd-I-Flor, if it's the same as was in DR.

Bump - answer for Bill

Your joisting and subfloor sound okay, so that's not it. And just for the record, if your deflection WASN'T up to par, no isolation membrane-- not even an uncoupling membrane like Ditra-- would help. It all comes back to the lack of thinset under the cement board. Go see the lawyer.

I just wanted to make sure we had covered every possible reason *besides* installation, so installer can't say it was structural, shrinkage as wood dried out, etc. - everything he was trying to say last year. We are always telling DD no to run in the house b/c it shakes the whole floor (and she's only 40 lb!) so was wondering if we have too much deflection. I think installer should have known that if we do (or at least figured it based on joist size/spacing), but he'd just say he put down what I asked him to - incl. the 1/4" Hardibacker that I bought so he wouldn't have to haul it here in his van (since I was buying so much stuff from HD I rented a truck to get it all home - Trex and stuff that wouldn't fit in my SUV). Even that, I asked if he wanted to put 1/4" under the Nuheat and 1/2" everywhere else (mainly to try to make up the diff. in height with 1 extra coat of thinset plus the 1/8" mat). He said no, he could level it out - NOT! My floor slopes from end of mat to edge of carpet 18" or so away. Didn't notice it with shoes on, by the time I moved in and floors were clean enough for socks it was too late to have him pull it up (ruin mat?) and redo the whole 13ft edge. Of course that's the area of the kitchen that hasn't come loose yet.