My Target carries it as does Trader Joe. Look for "white whole wheat flour." It's the same thing.

You could do what I do -- I store hundreds of pounds of a large variety of grains/seeds/beans and mill all my flour at home. But that's the extreme.... (LOL)

I can't believe whole wheat flour from King Arthur, Bob's Red Mill, Hodgson Mills, Wheat Montana, Pillsbury or Gold Medal aren't available in your local stores!!! Even out here in the middle of nowhere (4 Dillons stores, 1 Aldi, Wal-Mart and Sam's Club for groceries) we have those as well as a few more. And I agree with barnmom, look for white whole wheat flour. White wheat is a variety of wheat - the flour is still whole wheat, but it's not as dark as flour milled from red wheat. It's also sweeter to the taste, less acidic, and a great product to use when you are trying to introduce whole wheat flour to your family.

-Grainlady

Thank you both for your knowledgeable responses. I didn't know that white whole wheat flour was the same as whole wheat pastry flour. Yes, all the groceries I go to do carry it. You've definitely educated me and the next time I get out to the grocery, I will pick up a bag, or two or more.

Grainlady, I use to keep a large stock of staples and a smaller stock of everything else at home, but not as much as you do. Unfortunately, my DH really didn't like it at all so I had to cut way, way back. I usually have a couple of extra bags of white, bread, whole wheat and rye flour in my freezer. Guess I'll have to make room for a couple of bags of white whole wheat as well.

King Arthur's White Whole Wheat flour has 13% protein. Their Whole Wheat Pastry flour has 9% protein. IMO, the pastry flour with the lower protein content will make a noticeable difference in many lighter baked products such as biscuits, pastry doughs, scones, and some cookies. I use regular White Whole Wheat in sturdy cookies like peanut butter, chocolate chip, & oatmeal.

I live in New England, King Arthur's home territory & still have to order from the website or wait until we make our semi-annual pilmgrimage to their retail store in Norwich, Vermont.

/tricia

Here is a link that might be useful: King Arthur flours

I really shouldn't answer questions so early in the morning (which was 3:23 central time) before I have my first cup of tea or my 4:30 a.m. workout to clear the brain fog.... I completely missed "pastry".

If all you can find is regular OR white whole wheat flour and you are making cookies, keep mixing to a bare minimum so you avoid gluten-development. You may find adding a little less flour than the recipe calls for will also help (hold back 1-2 T. of flour per cup and only add it if needed), so keep an eye on the hydration of the dough and adjust it accordingly.

You could also make some oat flour and mix it with the whole wheat flour to lower the total gluten count. To make oat flour blend oatmeal in a blender or food processor. Substitute about 10-20% of the whole wheat flour with oat flour. But that's a lot of bother when reducing the amount of flour and keeping the mixing to a bare minimum will work just as well.

I've added a link below to one of our favorite whole wheat cookie recipes, and you can use commercial whole wheat flour in the recipe and don't need whole wheat pastry flour.

I'm just sorry people have to use that awful commercial stuff..... Fresh is best for nutrition and taste. And I can make my own blends for pastry flour or cake flour. I use a 3:1 ratio of soft white wheat and spelt or oats to make "cake" flour.

BTW - if you buy commercial whole wheat flour be sure to store it in your freezer. Freezing will slow down the oils and nutrients from degrading, but it won't prevent it, so use it quickly.

I built a substantial amount of food storage (in the mode endorsed by the LDS Church) because my husband works in an industry that has been hit hard by the economy -- the building industry (he's in custom cabinetry). Since 2008 there have been two substantial pay cuts and half of the plant workers laid-off, and that makes you realize the benefits of home food storage for when the unexpected happens - whatever the "unexpected" might be (job loss, pay cuts, medical emergencies, natural disasters, etc...).

Because I did such a good job building and utilizing our food storage (it took 18-months on a $200/month food budget for two adults), I've been able to maintain it (and even add to it) on a $125/month food budget. If you need to convince your husband the benefits of a well-stocked pantry - saving money is probably a good one. Most people don't eat as healthy or as well as we do, and do it on a $125/month budget.

We are actually making a better return on the money invested in our home food storage (purchasing low-costing basic whole food items and goods on sale at the lowest possible price before stocking up) than any other investment we have. Food prices are only going up. The wheat I bought for $5 for 25-pounds in 2008 (which was the most I'd ever paid for wheat at the time) is now $13.98. I can still get 50-pounds of hard white winter wheat for $20 (the same wheat used to mill King Arthur White Whole Wheat Flour for this region at the local mill outside of town).

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: 100% Whole Wheat Sugar Cookies - Kansas Wheat Commission

I have only recently been able to find whole wheat PASTRY flour in the average grocery store around here, and this is a pretty urban, upscale area. It's still not in all the stores, only bigger, more "gourmet" ones. I am old enough to remember when unbleached white flour and whole wheat flour were weird specialty items that you could only find in seedy little stores on the hippie side of town, lol! But I did know a thing or two about flour, and I have to say that after having used whole wheat "all purpose" flour for years and years, (that kind just says "whole wheat flour" on the label), I have found that whole wheat PASTRY flour is much, much better/superior for baking pastries. Such things as muffins, cookies, pies, cakes, etc. It's literally changed my baking life and is totally worth buying online from King Arthur or Bob's Red Mill or Arrowhead Mills or wherever. Or maybe taking a trip to the hippie side of town, lol!

AND, on the flip side, whole wheat BREAD flour is much, much superior to general whole wheat "all purpose" flour for bread making. I'm lucky, I can find both whole wheat pastry flour and whole wheat bread flour at my local health food grocery.

If I'm not mistaken, whole wheat pastry flour often goes by the name "soft wheat flour," and whole wheat bread flour goes by the name "hard wheat flour." Just different types of wheat used to make the flour.

I know this doesn't answer the question but I wanted also to say that I have never seen WW PASTRY OR BREAD flour in my town. I had a cookbook that called for WW Bread Flour...I looked at every single store around here...oh probably 20 stores all together...I found plain whole wheat and white wheat and that was it. Heck I even looked on line and didn't find ww BREAD flour!

Thanks everyone for all the input. I think within the next week I'm going to try to get over to Bloomington, Indiana to check out BloomingFoods to see if they have the whole wheat pastry flour. They carry all natural and organic products and were the only place I could find Pomona Pectin.

Grainlady, I appreciate your link for the whole wheat sugar cookie recipe. A must try.

--Whole wheat pastry flour is milled from low-gluten, low-protein, soft wheat varieties. I use soft white wheat for pastry flour, or anywhere I don't need a lot of gluten development. Spelt is another good wholegrain choice when you don't need a lot of gluten development. Spelt has a gluten level that is 5,000 parts per million; compared to wheat which begins at 50,000 parts per million and go up from there.

--Technically, "all-purpose" flour was developed commercially for bleached/unbleached flour from a mixture of hard wheat and soft wheat. There's enough hard wheat so it has enough gluten to make yeast breads, and enough soft wheat flour so it makes decent quick breads, pastry or cakes - so it covers "all purposes", but it's NOT the optimum choice of flour for most things, other than soft dinner rolls. We've just developed our flour use from the most common commercial flour available - all-purpose - with occasional moves to Southern all-purpose for biscuits and quick breads, and the even more elusive cake flour for beautiful tender cakes.

Even in the world of commercial bleached/unbleached all-purpose flour there are great differences... Northern all-purpose flour (King Arthur and Robin Hood - 11-12) have a higher protein level than National Brands (Gold Medal and Pillsbury 10-12). Southern all-purpose flour (7.5-9.5) is milled from soft wheat, so it's best used for quick breads, biscuits, muffins, pastry, cookies, cakes - foods where you don't want a lot of gluten development.

A mix of 3:2 hard wheat to soft white wheat is a great "all-purpose" mixture when you want soft yeast rolls. Otherwise, choosing a mix of hard wheat and soft wheat is less than optimum for other baked goods.

--Whole wheat "bread" flour would mean a high protein level milled from hard wheat. Bleached/Unbleached bread flour has a protein level of 13-14. I've milled wheat that was 16% protein and made yeast bread with it, but it takes a lot more kneading to develop the gluten and you find you have tough bread as a result of the high protein level. This also happens when you add too much vital wheat gluten to a recipe, so more (protein/gluten) is not necessarily better. The protein levels of wheat I purchase is generally between 13% and 14% protein, which is more than enough to raise a lofty loaf of bread.

If you tend to get short squatty loaves of 100% whole wheat bread, there are other factors you need to address besides protein/gluten levels - such as stop using a (quick mix) direct dough method and switch to a sponge method. A sponge will help soften the bran - the sharp edges of bran can cut the gluten strands. A sponge method also helps develop the gluten without kneading.

Adding an acid ingredient (vinegar, lemon juice, ascorbic acid, etc) to the recipe has a positive effect. There is a substance in wheat germ called Gluthione which breaks down the gluten strands. Adding an acid, such as ascorbic acid, counteracts the negative effects of Glutathione. Ascorbic acid helps to prevent the gluten bonds from breaking down and will repair the gluten bonds, so you'll get a high-rising loaf of 100% whole wheat bread. I generally add 1/8 t. ascorbic acid per loaf of bread when making bread that includes wheatgerm (as a single ingredient or from whole wheat flour).

-Something we tend to forget, or possibly didn't even know, hard wheat wasn't even available for milling until the late 1870's when the German Mennonites arrived here in Kansas and brought the granddad of all hard winter wheat varieties, Turkey Red, with them from Europe. Prior to the developing of the hard winter varieties of wheat, all flour was milled from soft wheat. The mills liked soft wheat for milling into flour because it was easy to grind in one pass through the mill, and had a much larger extraction of flour. Soft wheat tends to be a plumper seed with more endosperm, while hard winter wheat is small and rather wrinkled with more bran and less endosperm. You can tell the difference between hard and soft wheat when you mill it at home - the hard wheat flour is more coarse and gritty from the bran, while soft wheat renders a very soft, talcum powder feeling flour.

--"Bread flour" or high protein flour milled from hard wheat, was available to commercial bakers and they referenced it by calling it "strong" wheat flour. Strong and weak wheats indicate a wheat or flour's baking strength. It wasn't until the advent of the bread machine in the 1980's that high-gluten bread flour became available for home use. Up until that time all-purpose flour, which is a medium-protein level flour, was about the only kind of flour available for home use. If "whole wheat bread flour" is called for, it means use a "regular" whole wheat flour which is milled from hard wheat, instead of "pastry" whole wheat flour, which is milled from soft wheat.

-Grainlady

I thought white whole wheat flour and whole wheat pastry flour were the same thing. Hmm.

I really do not like regular whole wheat flour. I find it bitter and cardboard like. If I use it for bread I have to add lots of something sweet to make it passable to eat. I feel the same to some degree about the white whole wheat or whatever it is I buy. I buy King Arthur or Trader Joe's bag o' stuff. I go through it fairly quickly. If I find I'm not baking much I keep the flour in the freezer.

By "regular" whole wheat flour, I assume you mean it is milled from red wheat varieties, which are more acidic and bitter tasting than white wheat varieties.

White wheat has all the plant traits and nutrition of red wheat with the exception of the bran color. There are 3 genes that determine the bran color. The heirloom (old varieties) of red wheat have all three genes and the bran is very dark and the flavor of the wholegrain flour is very acidic and strong. Most of today's red wheat varieties have 1 or 2 genes that determine the bran color, and they are lighter in color and more mild in flavor.

Think of white wheat as the albino wheat - through selection this hybrid has been developed over the last couple decades. There are no genes for the bran color, therefore it's much lighter. The bitter compounds have been bread out of the wheat variety and the taste is mild and somewhat sweet - the perfect choice for people who dislike whole wheat flavor and color, but still want the nutritional benefits of whole wheat.

White wheat also comes in a number of varieties. I like Prairie Gold HARD Spring White Wheat from Wheat Montana - great for yeast and naturally-leavened breads with a 13-14 percent protein level. It may cost more, but I like the baking characteristics and it's Certified Chemical Free. You can find Wheat Montana Whole Wheat Flour available in stores now. Both Prairie Gold (which is hard spring white wheat) and Bronze Chief (hard spring red wheat). I keep both varieties of this wheat in storage.

I also purchase a Hard White Winter Wheat, the same wheat King Arthur uses for their White Whole Wheat Flour purchased through Farmer Direct Foods Inc. It's the least expensive wheat I purchase, but it's not chemical-free.

Then there is SOFT White Wheat, a low-protein grain I purchase from Bob's Red Mill. Soft White Wheat would be considered "whole wheat pastry flour" when you mill it. You can get soft red wheat as well, and many brands of whole wheat pastry flour are milled from soft red wheat, not white wheat, but I prefer the mild flavor of white wheat.

Personally, I'd quit baking if I had to rely on commercial whole wheat flour of any kind. There's just that much difference between commercial and freshly-milled. Many of the so-called "whole wheat flour" products on the market are nothing more than white flour - bran and germ removed - and then some of the bran raked back into it to make it "brown". The germ is removed so it has a longer shelf-life and doesn't go rancid as quickly. King Arthur and Hodgson Mills flours are 100% extraction - nothing added and nothing taken away. But once the bran is broken during milling, oxygen quickly begins to degrade the germ oil and the nutrients. Oxygen quickly converts a healthy oil to a body damaging free radical. "Some studies have shown that vitamin loss begins as quickly as 3 hours after milling. Flours that have been left on the shelf for many months have lost portions of the B Complex and C Vitamin."

Therefore, fresh is best when it comes to using whole wheat - or any wholegrain flour.

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: Bulk Natural Foods

Grainlady,

"I also purchase a Hard White Winter Wheat, the same wheat King Arthur uses for their White Whole Wheat Flour purchased through Farmer Direct Foods Inc. It's the least expensive wheat I purchase, but it's not chemical-free."

King Arthur does offer an all ORGANIC White Whole Wheat flour,milled from a blend of hard white winter and spring wheats. Protein content is 14%.

/tricia

Here is a link that might be useful: KA Organic White Whole Wheat Flour

Grainlady has given excellent explanations about different wheats and flours. I use both hard red and hard white wheat for my breads....sometimes I combine both. The bagged whole white wheat flour at the store is hard white wheat. I use soft wheat for bisquits, pancakes, and cookies, pie custs. Whole wheat pastry flour will be stated as such on the bag.

I agree that milling wheat fresh is best. By the time flour reaches the consumer it can be pretty old. The bitter taste of whole wheat flour is mainly from the oils in the wheat going rancid. Fresh home milled wheat flour is not bitter if quality wheat is purchased.

It is very easy to mill your own wheat at home. I purchased a Nutrimill grain mill and have been very pleased with it. It doesn't take any longer to grind your own wheat with it than to grind coffee beans in a coffee grinder for morning coffee. I bought my mill from Pleasant Hill Grain, and I also purchase my grain from them. It is organic, fresh, and non GMO. I'm sure there are other good sources as well. There is an initial cost but overall it is way more economical in the long run. My husband and I don't even like the taste of refined white flour products any more.

Keep in mind that whole wheat can be frozen, so if your source sells in fairly large amounts (mine comes in 5 gallon buckets), your grain will store for a long time in your freezer. No bugs, no spoilage. Just bring it to room temperature before milling.

Well, milling my own isn't happening! Mostly I cook for the odd occasion or sporadic guest as I now live alone. If my life circumstances ever change dramatically I am certainly well informed or will know where to ask. :)

I finally got my whole wheat pastry flour at a huge Marsh supermarket south of Indianapolis. It is Bob's Red Mill wwpf, which was all I could find, but I'm sure it will do the job. Its a little pricier, but healthier and I bought two bags of it. I am saving this entire thread for all the wonderful information on wheat flours. Thank you everyone! Tomorrow I'm going on a baking spree.

I store flour in the freezer if I know I'm not going to use it up right away. That's how I keep these unusual flours around, I buy a stash when I have a chance to go to a "fancy" grocery store or health food store, and then store them in the freezer. Same with a lot of items for me actually, like baked seasoned tofu, fake meat products, flax seeds, etc. I have found Bob's Red Mill products to be excellent quality. We love their whole grain pancake mix!