Before rushing in to buy the certificates, figure out total cost of the certificates plus the extra costs your vet will charge, then compare it to the fee your vet will charge with no certificate.

I would find it extremely difficult, and probably impossible to hold my temper if my vet got sarcastic with me.

My friends and everyone who meets me consider my patience to be vaunted. But I have blown more that a few fuses because of bad service and completely wrong diagnoses from at least 7 or (is it 8) ? previous vets.

SG

I can't answer about the sedative/anthesia but cones for a spay/neuter? I've had lots of dogs/cats spayed or neutered and have never used the cones or elizabethan collars on them. Most of the time they act like the stitches aren't even there. They may lick at them a little but not enough to bother the stitches. The only time we used a cone after spaying was when my mom's dog had a reaction to the suture material which made them really itchy. I'd skip the cones unless I noticed one of the dog's really licking or chewing at the stitches.

Rimadyl for 5-7 days? Again, I think this is overkill. The only time I used pain meds after a spay was when I had an older female done. The pups are usually bouncing around the next day like nothing happened. Maybe for a day or two but not for a whole week.

I wouldn't worry about the heartworm test. If they've been on preventative and never missed a dose, they're ok. Even if they had missed a dose, if you gave the next one right on time they'd still be ok. Plus unless the infestation is extremely severe and has already caused heart damage, its not that dangerous to go ahead and so a simple surgery like a spay/neuter. I once picked up a little blue heeler stray. When I took her in for her initial check up she was heartworm positive but the vet didn't think the infestation was too heavy. We went ahead and spayed her as that was the priority as she was in the early stages of pregnancy. She came through with flying colors. We put her on ivermectin to take care of the heartworm and she is currently hale and hearty. So it sounds to me like your vet is trying to sell you some unnecessary add ons and lay a guilt trip on you if you don't do them.

I refused to use a drug which killed people. I agree you need to question your vet, and if you are not getting the answers you need, find a new vet. There a many different pain killers out there for dogs, most of which are cheaper than Rimadyl

Hi Silly,

I've had many dogs and cats spayed and neutered, and never used painkillers afterward. (In my personal experience, they're over-prescribed for people, too.)

And after losing a dog to Rimadyl I would not allow it to be prescribed for another of my dogs, young or old. Maybe even especially young.

Susan

Hey guys,
Thanks to all that took the time to answer. I appreciate it.

I know my post was long and I'm not very good at communicating this way.

Yes, costs are a consideration... but not the main thing. We have had communication "issues" in the past with this vet and her office staff and we are trying to rectify this.

Although, I don't think we are getting anywhere. For instance, when we took the new pups in for the second set of shots (the rescue shelter had given the pups the first set of shots, but we missed the time frame by 6 days (it was unavoidable on our part) so the vet insisted that the first shots wouldn't count). After the exam she sent in a vet tech to finish up and we specifically asked what would be needed on the next visit for puppy shots (what we considered the 3rd set but the vet said they were the second set) and we were told that there was no charge for the actual visit because there was no need for an exam, it was considered just a follow up visit, and then given a list of shots needed. I had it figured at 57 dollars... and that is after i told them that it wasn't just the money due that was the problem, it was not knowing ahead of time and we are not willing to face surprise charges (when possible, of course, we are not talking about emergency situations or diagnostics).
So... here we are with the pups in the exam room, on time, according to the vets strict shedule for time allowed between sets of puppy shots and just to be doubly sure I mention this to the vet tech who sees us and the pups before the vet does. She tells me there must be some confusion (picture heavy sighs and eye rolls from DH and I.. here we go again) and I explained to her that the confusion must be on their part, not ours, because we specifically asked on the last visit about this. She tells me this is "impossible'. I tell her it is not only possible but, sadly, highly possible and par for the course. Geesh! She then asks me who the vet tech was on that visit. I tell her I don't know her name (it's hard to keep track, there are new and different employee's, including this one, every time we visit and this is, again, after we have told them that we want all communication on record and that we neeed to know what to expect, moneywise, beforehand... surprises are no longer accepted) but it should be on the record, no? Silly me, eh? We tell her we want to speak with the vet.. she scurries off and comes back just as quickly...says things will be straightened out. Starts to leave again, as she does we spot the vet tech from the previous visit. We tell her that is her, she's the one that gave us the info.
Much wispering and not so whipering conversations going on in the hall. At this point it is bordering on the absurd. I open the door and ask the vet to talk to us.. she says take it up with the office manager and walks away. My DH was boiling. Anyway, office manager tells us same thing... it is impossible that anyone could have told us this. At this point door is opened and i see the vet again... she tells me that this is not up for discussion and that if I don't agree with the exam fee and a few other puppy shots that we were, also, told previously that were not needed, that we can go to petco! I was furious and told her that even petco has scheduled shot days and if we left now, the pups would, again, be off the allowed puppy shot period, thus forcing us to negate the 2nd set of shots just as we had to negate the first set. Her reply was that a week or so wouldn't matter!!

My DH had taken us to the vets office directly from work... he works construction, very hard work... he had not even had a chance to take his boots off. He was tired to begin with. Now he was exhausted and pis*ed, too.
We gave up in sheer frustration. What was supposed to cost 57 dollars now costs us 147 dollars! Ugh! We didn't even have 147 dollars. It simply wasn't in the budget for that week. Don't forget, we did try to budget for this.

Also, on the Rimadyl thing, I struggled with the issue when Toby needed it. I knew it was a risk but he was in so much pain that if there were no relief I would have had to put him down. He was crying at night and could never find a comfortable position. The Rimadyl was a miracle drug for him.
My concern for the pups is because the vets office says that there isn't much risk for young pups. I'm not sure I believe that. And I do know that there are lots of other meds out there. What I need to know is which ones to ask for and which ones will work with less risk. There, surely, must be standard meds for post surgical pain?

As to folks who say that the pups won't need pain meds? Maybe not for 5 to 7 days...but I do believe that they will need some pain meds. I don't subscribe to the thought that they (animals) don't need them even for such things as dew claw removal, neutering and tail docking (as newborn pups or older) and such. I remember when hospitals routinely did circumcision (no anestectic) on human babies. I didn't understand THAT thought process then, never mind that it came from doctors.
It took a nurse to prove just how excruciating the pain actually was/is. She instinctively knew that the cries from these babies were cries of pain. Nobody listened to her. She taped recorded the different cries of babies. Clearly, you could hear the terror and pain in the cries. It seems so foolish to me that doctors would think otherwise.
I know that when I had abdominal surgery I was very, very sore and in pain for more than 24 hours. I won't over medicate them. I'll observe them and see what they need for how long. But I also won't under medicate them.

Hey, maybe I will end up taking the pups somewhere else. Still, I'd like to know ahead of time what pain meds are effective and not risky.

Thanks again,
Silly

In young healthy dogs, a short course of rimadyl is usually OK. It is those few dogs with reactions- mostly Labs- or with chronic use that you MAY get problems. There are other pain meds that can be used; many choices among NSAIDs, there are opioids, and others. There is not one drug that hasn't killed a person. Aspirin, tylenol, all the COX inhibitors- they have all killed people. Quite frankly, that is a silly criteria for choosing pain meds in animals anyway- they are different and react differently to medications. If you don't believe me, try giving tylenol to a cat.

If you aren't going to control post-op pain in your pets, why bother having the surgery under anesthesia at all? You can just have someone hold them down so they don't move, or give a neuromuscular blocker to temporarily paralyze them. They used to do surgeries in infants with just neuromuscular blockers, and there was a high mortality rate. Once they started using anesthesia and post-op pain meds, lo and behold, the mortality rate went way down. The infants with just neuromuscular blockers didn't scream and writh in pain- they just quietly died. Pain is a negative prognostic indicator for recovery from any injury, surgical or not. Controlling pain produces better outcomes.

Just because an animal isn't writhing or screaming in pain doesn't mean they don't feel pain. They hide it much better than people. Anything that would hurt a person produces pain in animals. I don't think a short course of pain control is unreasonable after a radical hysterectomy. The surgery in males is not as extensive and they don't need as long a course of post-op pain management. NSAIDs also help reduce inflammation and swelling, which promotes faster healing. Just because the pain meds are prescribed for 5-7 days doesn't mean you have to give them for 5-7 days. You can stop earlier once your dog is acting completely normal. Oh, and anesthetic doesn't take 24 hours to clear an animal's system- the reason they seem lethargic the next day is PAIN! It hurts to move! I would challenge anyone to have a radical hysterectomy (or any major abdominal surgery) without pain control the next day.

The vet has to use the subcutaneous sutures to get the skin to close at all. That's not optional. The optional part is in the external sutures. BTW, none of my spays or neuters has come back for chewing out sutures, or getting infections from licking them, but the other vets who use externals have. I never use cones for spays/neuters.

Heartworm tests look for adult female heartworm antigen. They cannot be positive until 6 months after your dog is infected with heartworms. If your dog is under 6 months old, it would be impossible to have a positive heartworm test even if the dog was infected because it takes 6 months for heartworms to mature in the host animal. So we go just to prevention, then start testing a year later. The heartworm prevention companies will not pay for heartworm treatment if for some reason their product fails to protect your dog unless you have proof of a negative heartworm test every year. Personally, I don't care about that guarantee because I have never seen a dog on HWP monthly year round get heartworms. I HAVE seen stray adult dogs test negative upon being adopted, start prevention, and be positive for heartworms 6-12 months later. Obviously, when the dog was first tested, it had been infected for less than 6 months. I can't make any recommendations about what part of the year it is safe to not give HWP in Boston, because I make recommendations for NC (year round for sure here).

All that said, the sarcasm would be enough for me to leave that vet. Totally unprofessional. She was implying that the hospital cheaps out for certificate spay/neuters and doesn't use the same anesthetic protocol as the full-price clients. You may want to ask why- are the drugs your dogs would get as good? If not, I think you know what to do. If so, then why charge the other clients more?

"...try giving tylenol to a cat...."

OMG! I DO hope NO ONE tries this sick ~experiment~ !

Tylenol will bind permanently with part of the red blood cells and the cat will be unable to get oxygen to the cells and will DIE a horrid death! The gums and blood will turn a chocolate brown colour ..... :*-(

PLEASE DO NOT TRY THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I know that mazer (and pretty much everyone else on this forum) knows not to give tylenol to a cat. It was to illustrate that just because a medication is safe in a human does not mean it is safe in a different species. I'm sorry that you took it at face-value. Sarcasm does not come across well in written form, and it would do me well to remember that. I was certainly not trying to get anyone to do this, just to remember that safe in humans (whatever drug you can find is safe in humans, which I say is impossible) is NOT necessarily safe in a different species. Poor choice of words on my part.

There is no way I would go back to that vet. NO WAY. I am shocked at all of the things you mentioned. The treatment of you and your husband and the cavalier attitude regarding the care of your dogs is totally unacceptable. I'm surprised that vet has any clients AT ALL.

I have had 3 pups spayed over the past year. All three were on post-op pain meds. We used opiates due to my previous dogs having had reactions to Rimadyl. I have no doubt that the pups needed pain meds for the first 24-48 hours. The one that got to come home the same day of spaying was whinny and you could tell she was very uncomfortable. All three of ours had external stitches, but no cones were needed. They left the stitches alone completely. It is amazing how fast they recover from the surgery.

As far as the way you were treated at the vet office, I would run, not walk to find another vet.

Good luck,
Linda

I agree completely with Meghane. I can't imagine not controlling the pain associated with surgery for an animal. Do they not deserve the same consideration as we do when it comes to kind and humane treatment? The risk/benefit comparison to me would say to either go ahead with the rimadyl, or ask for an alternative.

Having fostered cats in the past, I've had the experience of going to a Vet that I wondered why they bothered to donate their services at all, as it was so very clear they resented having anything to do with foster parents (literally refusing to even talk to them) or their cats. I've also dealt with kind and considerate Vets that donated their time to rescue animals, who gave them the same respect and quality care they gave their full paying patients. It goes to show that you don't have to put up with that attitude from your Vet. Find someone who actually cares and still likes animals - and people.

Sally

Sorry I didn't get back here yesterday. I think I'm going to call around to the other vets participating in the FOA program. I need to get this done as soon as possible. I didn't order the certificate last night. I will do it today.

Meghane,
thanks, again, for taking the time. I'm glad you agree with me for the need for post-op pain meds. Like I said, I've had major abdominal surgery twice and it hurt like hell just to even move, so I know that Bridget and Flanagan will be hurting, too.

As to the sedation med thing...I took it to mean that she refuses to use the sedation covered by the certificate. Hence, her sarcastic reply when I asked why? Because I use one that works! It's very hard for me to believe that the FOA spay/neuter program would cover anesthesia sedation that is ineffective. I think she feels that the fee does not cover her end so she pads the bill. I don't know why she would sign on as a participating vet if she seems so resentful of the process, geesh! Whatever her reasoning, I resent the padding of the bill!

Ya know, I thank the stars that my DH was with me on the first puppy shot visit because he knows that we were told there would be no exam so no office visit charge. Because, believe me, I have a very hard time holding my tongue with her, and often times, don't!

To top this off, yesterday when I called to double and triple check everything ahead of time, I was told that the answers to my questions would take too much time over the phone. She said there is a checklist that spells out everything.. AND, because I was such a stickler that they would do me the special courtesy of sending it to me beforehand...get this...because, normally it is given to clients on the day of the surgery and they wanted to be sure that there would be no issues! All said in that same sarcastic tone! I had to hang up! There was steam coming out of my ears! So, for all I know there could be lots more non covered charges! Mind you, this was not my first conversation with them about the spay/neuter thing. Was told previously that only the take home meds (I hadn't asked, at that point what the meds were) and the cones would be extra!

I want to thank everyone for taking the time to help and for offering support.
Geeze, Bessiedawg.. you have been through so much! I'm so very sorry for you and your DH and the pups! Absolutely horrifying what happened to you! It has been a very painful year for you and you have my deepest sympathy. I'm terribly sorry for the loss of your baby and the other babies before her. I don't know how you're still standing! I sincerely wish you peace, strength and happiness.

Thanks again, everyone.

Silly

I have to laugh, sometimes some of you guys take yourselves and these issues WAY too seriously. Yes, ONE of the many reasons I dont like Rimadyl is because it killed a good number of people (as have a hundred other drugs) but those drugs were not remade for the pet population.
Also this is a forum, not a vet visit. Not a in-depth informational forum on the pros and cons of Rimadyl. Anyone interested can find information on any medicine out there, and make an informed decision on their own, I cut my answer in this posting short, if I listed all the reason I hate Rimadyl my post would be have been too long (there are a number of them out there which are too long as it is) My feeling about medicines are to give out a brief general idea of my thought on the med and leave it at that, too much information - I might find myself in court. I believe my post offered to the OP to discuss the options with her vet, which is ALWAYS the best thing to do when a medicine or the costs of medicine is an issue. I saved a tremendous amount of money but not using Rimadyl for my dog after his TPLO's and other other surgeries, and since the motto in my house is "no suffering if I can do something about it" I take these issues seriously. I give out my thoughts on posts where I feel I can offer some of the knowledge I have gained through my experience and hope it makes life with the OP's pet better. The end, love me.