When I was a child, my family had a summer home in Long Island, NY. Our family (along with our animals) spent every summer there. After my father died, my brothers and mother sold the home and bought another summer home in upstate NY. I was about 10 yrs old the summer we moved into the new summer house. We had a small, mixed-breed dog who was about 6-7 that summer. As my family moved furniture in the house, Tippy (our dog) ran out the door and disappeared. Everyone searched this area the entire summer. I'll never forget that horrible summer vacation. Each day, my brothers would leave in their cars driving, looking for Tippy. My mom notified the police, animal control, posted signs and informed the neighbors. The area was quite rural.

We did not find our beloved dog. My mom was sick with grief over this loss and blamed herself for his getting out. February, the following year, my mother received a phone call from a woman who lived down the road from our old summer house in Long Island. She stated that she believed our dog was living in the woods outside our old house. The people who lived there could not catch him and put food and water out for him. He was living, that freezing Feb. under an abandoned car. Our old neighbor wasn't sure, but thought the dog looked like ours.

A fast drive to our old house, and there was our Tippy. Thin, cold with frost-bitten feet. He had travelled over 75 miles to our old house. How he found his way could never be explained. How he crossed highways and city roads and survived was amazing. But somehow he found his way back. We never thought to advertise in the old area.

Another quick comment. How many people have placed their pocketbooks on the roof of their car and driven away to not realize they left their purse behind? I know I have. You can't pretend to know the circumstances which led to this dog being left in a parking lot. My first instinct would be that someone left him behind by mistake. Someone traveling. He was in a crate. Crates are expensive. Crates mean someone cared about this dog. I would have reported it to the police. I would have told the truth to the lady in the car.

Another scenario. A tornado came and whisked the crate and dog and placed it in the school parking lot. Please. It was an abandoned animal. You might forget your pocket book on top of the car, but you couldn't forget a dog in a crate between two parked cars. It was deliberately put there just as people put boxes of kittens at Petsmart's door. They figured that the dog would get a good home with caring people which he apparently did.

I have to think that someone left the dog in the school parking lot on purpose hoping someone would take it home. Why else would it have been there?

What would some of you do if you found a wallet with $1000 cash and no identification?

Taking what is not yours and not making every effort to find the rightful owner is stealing.

The people here who are defending these acts are ignoring possible scenarios and believing only what they choose to believe. I do not find it at all unlikely that someone might have forgotten a puppy in a carrier in the parking lot. It has happened, with tragic results, to babies, why not to puppies? People become distracted, they have many things going on in their lives, they make mistakes, sometimes with horrible consequences.

However, I do not want to accuse or berate the OP of this thread. My point is directed against the numerous people on recent threads who have come up with excuses as to why they should keep the animal they found.

In my opinion, finders of lost pets should assume the pet was loved and is missed and try all possibilities to find the owner. In another thread, I expressed some reasons why an animal might very quickly appear to be uncared for. All I, and many others, are asking is that you not make assumptions about that animal's life and about the owners.

Also, as pointed out by others, no one is suggesting that an animal be left in a dangerous situation.

Depending on who you ask, I stole and/or rescued what I think was some kind of a Shepherd mix. She was in such bad condition and we'd seen her running loose all the time with no collar, everyone I talked to in the neighborhood had assumed she was a stray. The circumstances can be seen here.

I would think that if someone scatterbrainly left a puppy in a parking lot by accident that they would have posted signs everywhere and would have gone to school and asked around....I mean...what would you do if you accidently drove off without puppy? I know what I would have done!!!!!

Well said, prairie love. I would like to add that the big picture being missed by some here, is that anyone can be a target of someone who wants their pet and convinces themselves that the animal would be better off with them than the original owner.

For instance, how many people here have dogs and work all day? I know people who don't believe anyone should own a dog if they aren't home during the day unless they are willing or able to afford day care.

Some of us have electronic fences for our pets and they work very well for our situation. Yet, others believe they are cruel and no responsible owner would use them.

Some animals take every opportunity to slip through an open door and I know from experience that it's almost impossible to prevent every escape with an animal like that, especially if there are children going in and out. Yet some people would feel that their owners were irresponsible and undeserving of owning that pet.

My point is, when you go down the slippery slope of justifying keeping someone's pet and not looking for the owner based on assumptions of your own and your desire to own that animal, you are also justifying the behavior of others who may decide that you are an unfit owner. After all, what makes your arguments more valid than their's?

garysgirl - yes to answer you facetious question, my daughter has been taught not to talk to strangers, etc.

You write: "Now that we've established that the dog was ABANDONED by its owners, not accidentally left, we can get to what should have happened next."

In my world, I don't not agree that the dog was abandoned, was established by anyone by you and your family who wanted to keep the dog regardless if it had an owner or not. You gave no thought to the fact that someone may be losing sleep over this dog, a young child's pet perhaps, an older person's companion. Another stretch of the truth - the truth you wish to tell.

Also, I do have another question - in your original post you say the woman approached you in a minivan - 17 years ago. That would have been 1990. When did car companies start selling minivans widely in the United States - approx. 1993 according to Wikipedia.

I get that you don't want anyone to disagree with your actions. If you only want support, join a support group. This forum is open to all, and the beauty of it is, we all have differing opinions.

Some weeks ago the helpmeet saw something run across the road, the car ahead of him swerved to avoid it. He knew it was a dog and pulled over. He coaxed it to him and put it in the car.

A young Chihuahau with wirey hair... wet fur... on a dry day. No collar, no tags. He brought her home and we called the dog officer in our town. We surrendered her to him with "dibs" on her if she wasn't identified within the required 2 wk. period.

She WAS claimed. She'd been "brought home" that day and had bolted out the door when the kids came home from school. The new owners were told they had 2 wks. to register her with the town and they'd check up on them.

It would have be WRONG to just "keep her", making no effort to find her owners. Sometimes accidents happen...

Labmomma,
Since you seem to enjoy picking flypoop out of pepper. Dodge introduced the Caravan in 1983, I believe that is around 24 years ago. Ford introduced the Aerostar in 1985, around 22 years ago. Maybe you need to harass Wikipedia for awhile.

Your arguments might hold some validity if NOT for the location. If the owner accidentally left the dog in a school parking lot, the minimum they would do to find the dog is post flyers at the school.

No, minibim, the minimum YOU might do under similar circumstances is to plaster flyers around the school, but not everyone thinks or acts like you do. And if this puppy was stolen from the original owner and dumped in the parking lot by the thief, the owner would have no way of knowing the location of the puppy, anyway.

The whole idea that someone would purchase an expensive airline kennel, collar, blanket, and toys, along with a 5 mo old puppy (no small investment, all totaled), then place the crated (trapped) puppy between two parked cars in a dark parking lot where she could just as easily have been hit and crushed by one of the cars while leaving ... all because the previous owner wanted so desperately to provide the puppy with a safe, new, loving home is BEYOND absurd! Come on now! If the previous owner really wanted someone to "please look after my baby", the crate would have been placed just outside the door of the school, NOT between cars in a dark parking lot!

My ex found a Yellow Lab pup, mostly grown with a ratty old collar and no tags, wandering in his neighborhood. He took it in. He asked around the immediate area if anyone knew the owners. Then he called me because I'm the one with the yard and the house and the dog run. I brought the dog home and put him in the dog run with my Lab for company and promptly ran a found dog ad in the local paper.

I kept the dog for a week. He was completely untrained and a real handful for me. I was a very busy single mom with a full time job. An aquaintance of mine expressed an interest in the dog for another family who had a Rotty pup and was looking for a companion pup. With no success finding the owners I happy handed the dog over to this acquaintance who took the dog to her friends. I checked up on the pup's new home with my acquaintance (my kid's gymnastics coach) and she said all was well. Pup was integrating nicely but seemed fearful as though he had been kicked or hit. He cringed and cowered for no reason. So I patted myself on the back for finding the dog a good new home.

Several days later I get a call from my ex saying his neighbor's son is claiming the dog (he doesn't live there) and that he gave them my number. I no longer have the dog! The neighbor calls, the son calls. I tell them I no longer have the dog but can pass their number along to the contact I have. The son begins to bully me. The mother begins to threaten me. I pass their number along, telling my acquaintance the owner wants the dog back. My contact doesn't bother calling them, she feels like the dog is in a better home. The mother and son keep calling me. I don't know where the the dog is, truthfully. The son showed up after hours at my kid's gymnastics school and intimidates my kid's coaches. He also called the cops, who called me. I told the cop I don't know where the dog is. The guy is menacing to me and acts nuts with the cop. At this point I tell the mother and son I am going to file a complaint of my own and get a restraining order if they don't stop calling me. They get the message. The cop tells them I did the right thing in placing an ad and contacting the local animal shelter and giving them the information (they never looked either place). I didn't make posters. See above: busy single mom with a full time job.

Should the dog have gone back to the original owner? Legally, probably. Do I feel badly about that fact that he didn't? Not one little bitty bit.

I personally have seen many families buy a cute little puppy for a child only to be ready to pull their hair out after they realize what a hand full a cute little puppy is. So to say noone would abandon a puppy in a crate with toys and a blanket is a silly statement! I've seen people willing to pay to have someone to take a puppy off their hands! This probably should be in the pet debates forum. The question should be: What is the correct thing to do when you find a lost dog? Is it your responsibility to post fliers and call all the shelters or is it the owners responsibility to place fliers all over and call the shelters? The one time I found a lost dog...I drove around the neighborhood looking for signs that evening but the next morning a couple kids came knocking on the door asking if anyone had found a Maltese.

barnmom- I absolutely agree that you did the right thing. You made a reasonable effort to find the owners, and you had no obligation to do more once you'd found the dog a good home. Good for you!

laurief- I don't know how you could possibly think that no one would spend a lot of money on a puppy, crate, etc.,and then decide that they don't want the puppy. Check out a shelter or rescue group sometime. There are lots of purebred dogs that somebody spent a lot of money on and then gave up. This was a mixed breed dog, by the way. Like I said, it's POSSIBLE that the original owners didn't abandon the dog. Perhaps she was stolen by a traveling band of gypsies. But, owner abandonment in this case is the most likely scenario.

About the minivan, thank you minibum! I was pretty surprised to hear that minivans didn't exist at that time, since I remember taking cross-country vacations in ours when I was that age! Labmomma, if you want to try to pick apart every aspect of my story to try to prove that it isn't true, let me save you some time. I was 10 years old and it was 17 years ago. I definitely don't remember every tiny detail. I've got the big ones right, though. Besides, if you think my story's not true, why are you so upset by it? Let it go, hon.

-garysgirl, aka thief and liar extraodinaire :-)

garysgirl - at least you have the lying part as well as the stealing part right.

I have always rather dance with the sinners than pray with the saints. I stoled two cats from a apartment. This is Daisy and Blondie's story:
This happened during the 80's when crack cocaine was all over the place. I was cooking at a truck stop,where the owner's daughter would "party harty" with the truckers. She lived in an apartment next to the resturant. Her mother's cat had kittens and she wanted a male kitten. Her mother gave her two kittens a big long haired kitten, she said was a male and a dainty short haired kitten. a female. The daughter hated the little female kitten that was forced upon her. The owner's daughter would be gone for days when she would leave with a trucker, she left the cats with no food or water. I would open a side window and feed and water the kittens while she was away. One day she had her door opened and a couple guys visiting, they were drinking and doing cocaine. I had to go by her room to use the restroom I looked in because they were laughing so hard. They were throwing the little kitten in the shower with the water on, they were throwing her against the back wall and laughting as she slid down the wall and staggered out thru the water. They would do it again and again. She left with the guys and I opened the window and got the kittens and took them home with me. I saw her again a couple weeks later and told her I had taken the kittens. She said she was glad they were dirty little Fers.
I named them Daisey and Blondie since both of them were girls. They were delute tabbies with blue eyes. Blondie was the one thrown against the wall and she didn't clean herself or eat unless her sister took her to the food, her sister cleaned her. It took her about six months to start being a normal cat, licking and finding the food. With hindsight after having an accident causing major brain damage to myself and getting over it. I know more what the poor cat went thru.
Contact the proper athorities, there were none. Animal control is 45 miles away and as I posted before they don't come out on any cat calls. The nearest sheriff was 21 miles away and they don't come out on animal calls. I gave those cats a long and happy life.

Sigh. Im going to try again. I think the problem is that there are really three or four issues being discussed interchangeably. LetÂs assume that everyone on this forum really wants what is best for their pets and also for animals in general, okay? That will make it a bit easier if we all grant others that respect.

First issue  what is stealing? This one is easy. If you take something that belongs to someone else without permission and without intention to return it, you have stolen it. Pranjal stole a cat, and Acorn stole two cats. In both cases, the "thief" knew that the cat(s) belonged to someone and took it anyway. (weÂll come back to both these cases, so please donÂt immediately react with anger).

But it gets complicated in two ways. First, if you take something with the intention of trying to return it to its owner, is that stealing? Probably not, and particularly not if you are removing the animal from immediate or potential danger. Garygirls mother fits this category. The puppy obviously could not be left in the parking lot, even in its crate, and her mother did try to find the owner.

The problem is, how MUCH intention of returning need there be to make it not stealing? At what point has a person tried hard enough to find the owner that it is not considered stealing? That is really one of the points of disagreement here. Some people, myself included, feel that some of the others did not try as many avenues to reunite the pet and owner as they could have. Others feel that a taken effort is sufficient because the responsibility lies with the owner to find the pet. I would ask (and I believe this was the true intention of laurieÂs thread) that you ask yourself how much effort you would like someone ELSE to go to in order to return your pet to you. Yes, we all know the steps that we should take to make it as easy as possible to find our pet, but what if all these steps have, for whatever reason, failed? What if the collar came off, the animal traveled beyond the range you put up flyers, etc? WouldnÂt you like the person who found your pet to do a little more than slap a few flyers in their own apartment building?

The other reason that defining stealing is complicated is because perhaps there are circumstances that justify the theft. I would put Acorn in that category and I suspect everyone else will too. Clearly those cats needed to be removed from the situation immediately. However, this is another point of disagreement. Some people believe that Pranjal was justified in stealing the cat, others do not. I donÂt think the members of this forum will ever agree on this, we all have a different place to draw the line that justifies taking another personÂs pet.

However, the part that sickens and frightens me is how many people are willing to make judgements of other peoples care of their pet without knowing anything about the situation. The example IÂll use for this one is Vacuumfreak and his newly acquired cat (sorry, vacuum, I really donÂt want to pick on you). The cat was outside and unneutered. Apparently, in vacuumfreakÂs mind this is sufficient to justify taking the cat. Nothing else pointed to an abandoned animal  he had a collar, he had been seen in the area four months before, and he was not hungry. However, if you read other threads in this forum, you will find that many people do believe that cats can live outside and many people do not believe in neutering their pets. So vacuumfreak and his supporters made a judgement about this catÂs owner because he didnÂt do things the way they believe it should be done! Unless there is a law in your area, people can let their cat run loose and leave it unneutered. I am not in favor of that myself, and I campaign for the Humane Society to educate people on these matters, but I also respect other peopleÂs right to do as they wish with their pets.

As deb18 wrote, many of us have practices with our animals that others of you do not approve of. That does NOT give you the right to take my animal even if the animal is for some reason away from me! I am pleading with you all to remember that people are different, they have different beliefs, and they will not all treat pets exactly as you would. That does not make them bad owners. Of course there are bad owners (as acorn found) and the line there can be fuzzy as well, but I have seen very many assumptions on these threads that do not have facts to back them up and it scares me.

Finally, I also am seeing a distressing lack of compassion for those that have lost pets. Barnmom, I will not defend the guy who got in your face and threatened you, however, I think if I was trying to find my dog and was told "I gave him away", then I called that person and they will not call me back  IÂd be furious as well and doing quite a lot of shouting myself! Have some compassion, he was trying to get his dog back! In my opinion, while you acted in good faith, your acquaintance was truly horrible to not return his call. At the very least she could have called and said "IÂm so sorry, yes we have your dog but he is now a member of OUR family. IÂm sorry for you but rest assured he has a good home". Barnmom, you are not the only one, a surprising number of people are simply not concerned with the feelings of the person who lost their pet. I find that very sad.

There is some serious overreacting going on here. I wonder if it's all talk and no ethics. No Lily, not a tornado, the crated dog was left by martians. I can see misplacing my keys or my wallet, but a dog in a crate? Come on folks.

garysgirl, I don't know how you could possibly think that I could possibly think that no one would spend a lot of money on a puppy, crate, etc.,and then decide that they don't want the puppy. It certainly isn't because I ever wrote such a thing. I was merely pointing out how absurd your "scenario 1" is to presume that someone who would "feel guilty" and "want her to go to a good family" would leave a puppy crated on the ground between two cars in a dark parking lot where she could easily be hit and crushed by a car, instead of placing the crate in front of the school door or at least on the curb out of the traffic lane. It's ridiculous to presume that the placement of that crate was an intentional act of abandonment by someone who actually cared enough about that puppy to provide all that was provided in the crate with her. Not impossible, of course, but nonsensical to me.

And that's one of the points many of us here are trying to make. Neither you nor your mother nor (apparently) any of the other 20 people at the PTA meeting nor anyone responding to this thread knows the circumstances of that puppy's appearance in the school parking lot. Anything's possible, and an owner should be presumed innocent at least until after the requirements of the law are satisfied pursuant to the taking up of an estray animal.

Laurie

I would have been a lot more compassionate, and was in the beginning, had he not acted like the 800 pound gorilla. After dealing with this bullying man and his enabling nasty mother, I changed my mind. I wasn't happy with my daughter's gymnastics coach not returning the phone call and would have preferred that she facilitate the return of the dog. I certainly felt that it was the right thing to do since the owner had apparently turned up. I could not control her behavior, only my own. And I truly had no idea where the dog was. I met the family, nice mom and dad and two young children. I had no qualms about the dog going with these obviously nice folks.

I still feel that one should not make assumptions of neglect or abandonment. The heartbreak of losing a beloved pet should not be minimized.

I actively showed my dogs for many years and traveled all over with them. They were also transported by handlers. Dog handlers carry many dogs in their vans and are intrusted with their care. Mistakes can happen. Dogs can be forgotten at dog shows, on the road, etc. Doesn't sound nice, but it does happen. Although, this dog was not a purebreed, you can not assume to know how it wound up in a crate in a parking lot. Maybe it was left by an irate x-husband or kid. Who knows. The owner could be living far away and would not see flyers or newspaper ads.

Maybe there was nothing further that the op's mother could have done. But not telling the truth to the lady in the van, was wrong.

BTW, Vanessa Williams, the actress, lost her dog a few weeks ago. She lives in my town and it was all over the paper. Her dog escaped from her yard. She was heartbroken and hired a 'pet detective' to find the dog. Yesterday, the dog was located in Connecticut. A woman claims she found the little dog running through the town with no collar and took it home. Vanessa Williams lives in NY and the dog was taken to Ct. After a few weeks, the Ct. woman brought the dog to her Vet who discovered the dog had been chipped and the Vet contacted the NY vet.and the dog was returned. Had that dog not had a chip, Vanessa Williams would never had gotten her dog back. I believe that CT woman would have kept the dog. She had to have heard all the media attention surrounding the missing dog.

This seems like a long time ago, and anyone in there right mind wouldnt leave a dog unattended between two cars if they wanted it .. seems the people did the right thing in taking it home , i dont think you are a theif ,I think you might have saved the poor thing who knows what kind of person would have gotten it if you had left .anyway its to long ago to worry now , just my thought...

I didn't answer this post because I haven't stolen a cat, but since my name has been brought up, maybe I should make a comment or two. You can tell me that I am judgmental if you want to, but ANYONE who has an outside cat at an apartment complex (as you speculated could have been the case, Prarie) is not only violating the law (or lease rather) but also doesn't care about the cat. Also, ANYONE who doesn't neuter their cat doesn't care about it, you will never convince me otherwise. This one certainly was old enough to have been neutered. So, after putting up (more than a few) posters, posting on a web site, and checking with the shelter (Monday when neutered and vaccinated) I'm not sure what else to do to find the owner. If they call me and want the cat back they can have it... if not that's fine too. I've done what I feel is within reason to find the owners and that's all there is to it.

As I posted on the topic about the cat that I found:

I certainly don't think I've stolen the cat. There are always posters of lost/found pets at the mailboxes, so I posted them on all the mail centers and in the stairwells of the apartments with e-mail address and phone number. If the people cared about the cat they could have put a collar with a tag on him instead of the crusty flea collar that I found him in. Jasper's vet is just down the street from the complex, so I will go there to see if anyone reported a lost cat. I've been waiting to have him vaccinated and neutered to see if anyone claims him, but I have an appointment for Monday at the low cost animal care shelter to get that taken care of. If I spend money on that and then someone claims him, they will have to reimburse me for the expense. They should have done it in the first place. I don't feel like a hero or a thief. If someone calls with an accurate description of the cat and pays me for the medical expense they can have it back. Until or unless that happens, I am going to be a good steward with the life that has been (even if temporarily) entrusted to me by happenstance or the great Universe or whatever you believe in and enjoy every second of it. Maybe there are people on this forum who would rather me turn the cat back onto the streets so he can get run over by cars or eaten by predators in hopes that he will wander back to his original "owners". I placed an add on Craigs List. I've gotten 3 offers for Viagra and one offer to make a million dollars a month to work at home from a textile shop based in the UK. Then the add was flagged. There is a point at which you have to draw the line. Maybe I should quit my job and just knock on every door in the state until someone says they lost the cat I have found. Then I will be able to sleep at night since I'm such a horrible person! Some people!

If you don't know what else you should do to find the potential owner, vacuumfreak, call your local police or animal control officer. That's what animal control is there for. They will tell you if there is anything else you need to do in order to satisfy local ordinance, and they are the only authorities who can grant you the legal right to keep the cat. Once you take that step, you will have met your legal obligation in this matter.

Laurie

but ANYONE who has an outside cat at an apartment complex (as you speculated could have been the case, Prarie) is not only violating the law (or lease rather) but also doesn't care about the cat. Also, ANYONE who doesn't neuter their cat doesn't care about it, you will never convince me otherwise.

1. If your town has a law about outside cats, then yes, the owner is in violation. If your complex has a lease regulation, then it depends on whether the cat was owned by someone in your complex or not. I actually am of the opinion that the cat was owned by someone not in your complex but in a close neighborhood. Not knowing your exact situation I certainly cannot speculate more.

2. Yes, you are, in my opinion, judgemental. You state that anyone who has an outdoor cat or an unneutered cat does not care about their cat. Go read the back threads on this forum, there are many people who defend very vehemently their right to have outdoor, unneutered cats. I also do not agree with this approach, but ... you and I have NO RIGHT TO JUDGE THEM. And most certainly no right to take their pet away from them.

Vacuum, I really did not want to pick on you, but could not find another example to make my point. I think that your kitty probably was abandoned. But, my point was that you really had no reason to take the cat home. There was nothing to indicate that it wasn't a cat just doing what it normally does in its life.

This is why these discussions are very difficult. I am in complete agreement with you about outdoor cats, neutering, and probably even your kitty. The point I am trying to make is larger than your particular situation. It is that so many people make judgements because an animal is not treated the way they would treat it. We do not have the right to judge others.

Garysgirl, I feel bad that you've gotten some harsh reactions here; it was a long time ago and maybe it should have been handled differently, but who here can say they've never done anything wrong ?
I STOLE a dog from a neighbor of my mother-in-law. I knew exactly who she belonged to; I'd been watching her sit it their yard for months.She hobbled over to me that day when I called to her; she had been neglected to the point of needing serious medical care. And I'd do it again tomorrow. That poor animal got the help & attention it needed, and it stopped suffering at the hands of those nasty,filty,people that didn't seem to notice she even existed anymore. She lived the rest of her life with me, and died peacefully of old age. She was a little white poodle mix, and a sweeter animal I've never had since. I don't feel bad about taking her at all. I don't think they ever noticed she was gone.

Since outdoor cats have been mentioned here, I have a question. Is an outdoor cat on you let out periodically, or is it one you keep outside most of the time. I'm curious because there are people in my neighborhood with "pet" cats that spend more time outside than inside. They say that they let the cats out at night then let them in in the morning. But a friend who was pet sitting their cats and dogs called me very upset because she let the cats out like she was told and they did not come back for two days. Meanwhile, she searched the whole neighborhood for them. When the people came home they said, oh yeah, they do that all the time. We don't look for them unless they are gone for a week or two! She was upset when one of the cats never came back last year. It was missing for a month before she got concerned and started looking for it. Is this how "pet" cats are suppose to be treated? My good friends who have cats all keep them indoors at all times. These cats seem very happy with their lives. So who is the "bad" pet owner, the one who keeps the cat inside, or the one who does not worry if the cat disappears for weeks at a time. And if someone finds one of these cats, and calls animal control (they won't wear collars and are not chipped) and puts an add in the paper, and puts up signs... and the owner does not bother to look for the cat for a month? I guess the cat gets a new home? I don't think the shelters hold animals for more than a few weeks if they can help it, all the shelters in the area are always full to overflowing with unwanted (or maybe lost) pets.

I'll bet you never expected the amount of responses you got. I'll stand by what your mom did, and VF, and Pranjal did because in the final analysis, the animal got a good loving life out of what might have been a tragedy. A person who loses a pet will immediately go into high gear w/ calls to vets, animal control and placing posters. I have been on both ends of this. Two and a half years ago , a brown tiger cat came up to me one a cold snowy dark night when I was walking 2 miles from my home. She followed me the whole way home and I fed her. I immediately put an ad in the paper and posters all around. She stayed in my garden house w/ a heater for three days till the local rescue group could find a vet appt. to check her out and neuter her. Well, she was neutered and was a relatively young cat. She came home with me, but after over two years, she went back to the group and was placed in a single cat house where she is loved to death. She had huge territorial issues with the female cats in my house. This cat was abandoned and had I not taken her, she would have died. She weighed 6 pounds, and 16 when she left my house ~~The fifteen cats I've owned over the last decades (not all at once!) have all been neutered before five months and all kept indoors. But I lost one once and it is still very painful for me..One of the worst experiences of my life. I raised a 6 day old tortie named Peeper whose feral mother was run over in front of my son's house. He found this baby in a tree all alone. I bottle fed her even taking her on vacation with me..In the worst cold spell this area ever had in history..minus 17 and two feet of ice and snow on the ground, my husband said we should go get milk. I had been throwing out old sweats and teeshirts and had them in a plastic garbage bag by the door. Peeper, along w/ other cats ,was lying on the dining room table in front of the woodstove. He pulled up the car and I grabbed the bag and slung it on the snowbank for our garbage man to take the next day. The very sad part was I didn't miss Peeper till the next day since I live in a big two story house and she was one cat who loved to hide in cupboards. I clearly remember the time a few years before this when we had company and I could not find her. I walked all around the neighborhood till 3:30AM, and came in crying when Peeper emerged from her hiding place yawning. This time I wasn't so fortunate. I realized how it must have happened ..that while I put on my coat , she had gone inside the bag to lay in the fleece ,and I ran outside where there was a rip in the bag. She had gotten out but froze to death, I assume. Seventeen degrees below zero and ice and snow two feet thick . So thick you could walk on top. I stayed out for hours going door to door slipping and sliding and made posters for every pole in town and put ads in the paper, but I never found my little Peeper. I tear up just thinking of it. But that's what a person does who loses a pet, and the dog in the crate wasn't lost.

I don't have the cat because I judged the owners to be unfit. I have the cat because it was homeless and it walked right up to me. My opinion about the owners has nothing to do with it... if they call me tomorrow and tell me they want the cat back, they can have it... I'm not going to keep it from them. I didn't walk into someone else's house and take a cat that didn't belong to me. THAT would be stealing. Pets that are outside have to be on a leash at all times, so if the owner did let the cat out, they should be evicted. I didn't judge the owners and then steal the cat. I did form an opinion about them based on the evidence, but I didn't let that dictate my decision to take a homeless cat OUT OF HARM'S WAY (who in their right mind would have a problem with that?)! Why don't I just go nail him to the pavement under the back of a huge truck tire so that when they reverse he can have the fate some of you so despearately desire? That's insane! There are woods miles of woods behind and on the sides of the complex and stores across the street. Do ya think if the cat had walked 10 miles (from the nearest neighborhood) that he would STILL be in the same apartment complex 4 months later? Is that even logical? (NO!). Have you any other questions? Laurie, thank you for your loving concern. I've mentioned about 15 times already that I am bringing the cat to animal control/shelter (same place) to have it neutered (do you people actually read the posts or are you so busy spewing your self righteous opinions that you forget to do that?)!

Vacuum, you have never ONCE, until your last post, mention a single word about animal control. Animal control (the legal entity associated with your local police department) is NOT necessary in any way associated with a local shelter in many, many locations. If you have filed a found animal report with your city's animal control officer, rather than simply making an appointment with your local shelter to have a cat neutered and vaccinated, then you have followed the necessary procedure. You still haven't mentioned making any such report to the assigned law enforcement official (animal control).

Laurie

This is why these discussions are very difficult. I am in complete agreement with you about outdoor cats, neutering, and probably even your kitty. The point I am trying to make is larger than your particular situation. It is that so many people make judgements because an animal is not treated the way they would treat it. We do not have the right to judge others.

Regarding animals, yes I do think we have the right to judge, in certain situations. Some of our animal laws really need to be changed when it comes to "property". No one treats a child as "property" and if a child were treated the way many pets are, the authorities would take the child and provide a foster home.

Not so with animals, the authorities take the animal and 72 hours(or whatever the wait period is) they hold it and euthanize it. Even telling the authorities that you'd like to have the animal after the wait period means nothing. Most animal shelter workers are simply biding time in their government job and dealing in such volume that they don't remember who wanted what animal.

I'm sure Vacuumfreak could have called animal control and they'd taken the cat, no problem. The cat would probably be dead right now, and if by chance it was still alive would be suffering terribly from some upper respiratory. Currently we don't have easy solutions for found/lost pets, so we all walk a very fine line between our definitions of right and wrong.

This being said very facetiously, but what would happen if we euthanized unwanted children as quickly as we euthanized unwanted pets? Would anyone be in an uproar? For animals though, it just seems to be the "norm" for how we handle the overcrowding.

So yes, I do think I have the right to judge people who let un-neutered animals wander. They are adding to the problem and could careless. Someone posted recently that their yorkie had "snorkies", whatever the frig that mutt combo is. That type of post makes me absolutely cringe.

I just wish the animal shelters of the world had come up with the "designer dog" theory instead of the breeders who created accidents. Imagine the shelters with waiting lists and commanding top dollar with all their mutts designer dogs.

I think my last post bears repeating and some further explanation, because it has become apparent that there is some misunderstanding about exactly who is the legal authority in terms of estray animals and exactly to whom we all have a legal obligation to file a found animal report when we take in a stray or lost animal.

Shelters, humane societies, and rescues are independently formed organizations that may or may not have any association with governmental law enforcement. Some of these organizations do have contracts and other arrangements with law enforcement to accept animals picked up by law enforcement officials (including animal control), and some organizations even have their own humane investigators who may or may not have received the necessary training and legal authority to confiscate animals and make arrests.

Animal control is the animal-related law enforcement authority employed by the local police or sheriff's department. The animal control officer DOES have the authority to investigate and confiscate animals, and AC is responsible for enforcing estray animal ordinances as established by the state and locality.

When a stray or lost animal is found, law enforcement should be notified and a found animal report put on file. When you call your local police or sheriff to make such a report, they may refer you to a shelter with whom they have contracted to handle such matters. In my area, however, it is required that such reports be made diretly to the police (if within city limits) or sheriff (if outside of city limits). Reports can also be made to the area shelters and rescues, but such reports do not necessarily satisfy the ordinance requirements for notification of found animals.

Estray animal statutes for all states can be found online through a simple Google search. The estray animal statutes in my state have all sorts of funky requirements, so I called my local sheriff to get their take and find out the procedures they require for notification of found animals. Not surprisingly, they do not adhere strictly to the state statute as written. I do know, however, what it takes to satisfy my local law enforcement's requirements, and I follow those requirements.

I recommend that anyone who is inclined to take in apparently lost or stray animals reads up on your state's estray animal statutes and calls your local law enforcement to find out how those statutes are applied in your own location, as well as what sort of "found animal" notifications are required and to whom they must be made.

Laurie

If you report a found animal to animal control or put up posters/run ads on your own, keep it *very* generic:

"Found: dog. Identify & pay for ad."
not
"Found: Intact male Newfoundland."

That's like saying you've found a wallet with a $100 bill in it;
just say you found a wallet, & make the "owner" identify it.

Vacuumfreak, I don't know how many ways I can say this until it's understood. Maybe caps will help it stand out:

NO ONE HERE HAS SUGGESTED THAT AN ANIMAL BE LEFT IN HARM'S WAY. ONLY THAT YOU DON'T MAKE ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT THE OWNERS TO JUSTIFY NOT LOOKING FOR THEM.

There. Does everyone get it now?! Maybe you can all spare us the drama of your outraged rants that we all want animals left in the street and intentionally run over.

It's funny to me how you accuse us of not caring about animals and hold yourself up as more humane for taking that cat, but there are a few things in your thread that are revealing. You do say that you did all you could to find the owner, and if so, I am not criticizing your ACTIONS in this case, just your ATTITUDE towards other pet owners.

You mentioned that you already planned to get a cat and you talked about how beautiful this one was. Yet you describe later on about ignoring the plight of a cat that you could have rescued but didn't because you don't like black or female cats and didn't want reminders of the person who had her. You knew from first hand experience that this person was unkind, yet were willing to take no action towards that animal's safety, yet you're asking us to believe you had only the pretty kitty's best interest at heart when you stopped your car.

It leads me to wonder whether you would have seen the orange cat's plight as so dire if he had been black and female or would you have rationalized his story another way. For example; he'll probably run when I approach anyway, I've seen him before so he must live there, I can't pick up every loose cat I see because so many let them roam, etc.

This is the point we've been trying to make. When people see something they want, they tend to rationalize why they should have it. If they really want to rescue an animal, why not save one of the millions that will die in a shelter this year? Is it because those animals aren't usually the strikingly marked cats or the cute little white dogs? That's why "rescuers" have an obligation to follow the correct legal procedure to find the owner and keep their assumptions out of their actions. Because their assumptions are quite likely tainted by their own desires.

Sylvia, I absolutely agree with you about keeping the information about found animals in ads and posters generic, but when making a report to a legal authority like animal control, details must be provided. It is not within our rights or the animal's best interest to censor the information provided to law enforcement in these matters.

Laurie

In a perfect world maybe, but not in my little corner of reality;

I've talked to too many animal control people who have told *me* too much information before I've told them enough.

If I ever find another animal, & it's identifiable as a certain breed, & I call animal control, I'll tell them the same thing that I would post in an ad & give them permission to give my phone number to callers.

Laurie... in the town I live in animal control is right beside the SPCA. They share the same parking lot. They both offer low cost spay and neuter and adoptions, but the animal control euthanizes their animals after a certain amount of time, the SPCA does not. If you call for a stray or nuisance the people beside the SPCA are the ones who come to get it (like that cat at the hotel I work at a few months ago). I wanted to take "rescue" that cat as well and it was a female. I also posted a few months ago about a black stray cat that was at the apartment complex. It also had a white flea collar on but no tags. I was feeding it for a while hoping to gain its trust. I would still be feeding it if I hadn't found it dead by the mailboxes last month. I didn't know what gender it was, but I was willing to help a black cat and a female cat. I don't prefer them, but if fate puts one in my path so be it. I didn't take either cat because they didn't approach me... they were scared of people (and rightly so, they are both dead now because of people). The reason I didn't take the black cat that my former friend had was because it would have reminded me of him. Not her fault, but still not something I wanted to deal with. I have that right. I wasn't ready for two cats then, I was just moving into my first apartment... that was almost a year ago. That guy while mean to people when on drugs worshiped his two Mexican hairless pups and took great care of them and the cat. That cat had a roof, food, litter, playmates, and was out of harm's way (he was never physically violent, just a terrible friend). It didn't really need rescuing. A cat on the street left to fend for itself... that is a completely different situation and I can't believe I even need to explain that. I didn't HAVE to do ANYTHING to find the owners of the cat that I currently have... I could have claimed it as "found property" without putting posters in every building and by the mail boxes... I didn't have to put an add on Craigs List, and when I take him to be neutered I don't HAVE to tell them that he was a stray... I can say my grandma left him to me.... I guess you are right... I didn't do anything to find the owners and I don't know how I can sleep with myself. You falsely accuse me of judging the former owners of the cat... who are YOU to judge me? I did what I feel is right and I took a cat off the street who could have been killed. Also, I made what I feel to be reasonable efforts to find the owners. I can see how I should be likened to Hitler... it all makes sense to me now.

I have a bet with hubby that this thread will reach the 150 post limit.

Who wants to prove me wrong so my sweetie will win a quarter?

(Life's too short for this. Stop fighting and go play with your pets!)

OK here's what you should do - when you find a neglected/abandoned/probably abused animal, by all means, take it to safety. Please do not assume the previous owners were negligent/uncaring/whatever, and then do everything possible to locate the owner. This much is OK.

What is NOT correct, is how the rescuers are projected. The mobsters probably do not read these guys posts properly.

There was nowhere Pranjal could go, to report finding Pumpkin. The doorman told her the owner lived int he same building. She gave her contact details and to date nobody has called her to ask about Pumpkin. What else should she have done? She got jumped on by the mob here. Because the owner didn't call for Pumpkin. Because she couldn't leave a pregnant cat starving.

Vacuumfreak rescued a cat he found on the streets. He says he doesn't mind helping a black female cat if needed. It just so happens that this particular cat is orange. He liked it and told us about it. He's getting jumped on all the time here.

deb18 gets suspicious when people mention how much they're attracted to the pet they rescued - but a lot of us have rescued ugly-looking creatures too.

So now we MUST rescue pets if needed - but NEVER gush about how sweet they are. Just mention that the animal you rescued is ugly. LOL

Also no matter how much you do to trace the owner, if your efforts turn up nothing, it is your fault. Why don't you quit your job and devote your lives to finding the owner?

I understand the point of this post. Do NOT assume that the owner did not take care of the pet. That's all fine. But why are the mobsters blaming rescuers? Why call them thieves? They did what they thought was right in those circumstances, and we do not know ALL the factors at play.

Vacuum, you said the correct thing: You falsely accuse me of judging the former owners of the cat... who are YOU to judge me? I did what I feel is right and I took a cat off the street who could have been killed.

Petaloid, if this thread doesn't reach the 150 limit, I'll win $10 and yet here I am writing this *sigh* In fact DH promised me $1 for every day I don't post here LOL

-Judy

If you ignore the off-topic replies and only count the ones that answered the OP's question, the number is suprisingly small. :p

I don't think the OP's intention was to have a debate, and this thread is way past the 'debate' stage, anyway. It's more like petty offensive labeling, judging, and cranky people.

In my county, and living outside of the city limits as I do, my legal obligation when I find an estray animal is to call law enforcement (in my case the sheriff's dept) and have them file a found animal report. They will send a deputy to pick up the animal if I so desire (which I never have) or will allow me to keep the animal (which I do) until and unless such time as the rightful owner is located. If the owner is not found, I have the option of keeping the animal permanently. I am not required to relinquish the animal to law enforcement, so I don't have to worry about the animal ending up in a municipal pound with only days to be reclaimed, adopted, or killed.

On one occasion I did come across an apparent stray while visiting in town. I called the police dept, and an officer came to pick up the dog and take him to the pound. Because the dog was in very good condition, I thought it likely that he had strayed or been lost from his home, so I had no problem letting him go to the pound to make it easier for his owners to locate him. I called and spoke to the poundmaster daily to check on the dog. As soon as the dog's required holding period had expired without anyone coming to claim him, I adopted him and brought him back to my farm where he was a member of my family for the last 15 yrs of his life.

Depending on the ordinances of your location, there may be no requirement to relinquish the animal to AC ,so the holding terms of your animal control facility is a non-issue for that particular animal. Vacuum, are you afraid that AC will require you to relinquish the cat to them if you call and make a found animal report. Are you afraid that if they do confiscate and hold the cat, that they will end up euthanizing him before you have a chance to adopt him legally? Why, exactly, are you apparently so adamant about not contacting AC?

Laurie

I didn't know I was adamant about not contacting AC... thanks for telling me that! I kind of figured that when I take him there tomorrow and tell them I found him in my complex they would get the idea... I said in my above post that animal control is who runs the low cost spay neuter clinic and they are the people I am going to tomorrow. Did you miss that?

No, what you said was that AC and the SPCA are located next to each other and share a parking lot and that each one offers low cost spay/neuter and adoptions, but that they have different policies regarding euthanasia. That sounds like they are separate entities in separate buildings with separate policies, housing different animals. Are you saying now that they are actually in the same building with one spay/neuter/adooption program that they administrate together? When you called the SPCA to notify them about the lost cat, did you speak directly with the AC officer? None of this has been made clear in your earlier posts.

The people I am taking the cat to are the AC, because the SPCA was booked for two more weeks and couldn't fit me in. I don't know who I spoke to when I called (I called the SPCA, AC and the nearest vet to me because this was my first stray and I really didn't know what do to...), but I'm bringing the cat to them tomorrow for the neutering so I can talk to them in person.

Prairie_love, you stated "we do not have the right to judge others". I completely disagree!! My husband and I are involved with rescue, and each and every time more kittens and puppies have to be killed because some irresponsible waste of oxygen was too lazy to get their animal spayed or neutered for free, or for a very nominal fee, I feel VERY judgmental!! And I feel the same way when feral cat populations pop up all over the place because some idiot dumped his or her un-spayed/un-neutered cat(s), or lets their intact animal roam around. And by the way, I also judge (and despise) people who neglect/abuse their animals and I have no intention to EVER respect their right "to do what they wish with their pets".

Vacuum, OK, now I get it. Thank you for the clarification. I just never understood that you actually contacted AC, but now I do. As I stated earlier, I have no problem with folks who make the necessary contacts after finding a stray animal, and now I understand that you handled things as they should have been handled. If Jayden has anyone out there looking for him, now it's up to them to make the same contacts you made in order to find him.

Internet communications can certainly be tricky.

Laurie

As far as I can tell from the posts the sole purpose of VF contacting the AC and the SPCA was for arranging low cost neutering, which they both do, not for the purpose of reporting a found cat. VF correct me if Im wrong

This is bizarre!! The dog wasn't 'lost' in his crate. That makes no sense whatsoever. Its obvious someone placed the dog there to be found by a nice PTA family oriented person. Placing the dog by the cars was probably to prevent the dog from crying (and the person leaving it to get caught). School parking lights do have a little lighting. The crate was obviuously seen and not run over. Picture 20 PTA mom's after a meeting discussing what to do. Of course the dog is going to go home with the person who was considering getting a dog anyway. Not everyone can just appear at home with a dog at the end of the night (other pets, spouse not wanting another animal in the house-even briefly). If someone is going to abandon a dog, after dark would be the most likely scenario. This dog was left in a place where it would be discovered. How in the world could it be left there by accident???????!!!!!!! Referring to an unlikely scenario mentioned above (the teenagers stealing it on whim)-the owners would be sure to check the paper, check with the local vets, look for posters-come on!!!!!!

As for the woman in the car asking about the dog-would she drive away and forget about it?? I doubt that. She would see where they lived and speak with the parents, and see if it is her dog by the way it reacted to her. If it seemed to be hers she could see if they give it back or contact the police. It wouldn't be unusual for a child to consider it his dog (or wish it was) after a few days.

If I found a dog I would put up posters and place an ad in the newspaper-they weren't hiding anything-if the woman was in the neighborhood, she saw the signs with the phone number. I never heard of contacting animal control to report a lost dog. I will have to check that out, however I wouldn;t consider a dog in a crate lost. Lets not forget the OP's parents regularly read the police blotter, didn't seem to be stolen. I would never think to call the police. I can just imagine calling the Orlando police dept to report I found a dog!! They have bigger problems to worry about than that.

I can't believe people on this thread are calling them thieves????? Did they steal a dog left sitting in a dark parking lot?? Did they put up posters?? a newspaper ad?? Talk to the local vet, not to mention getting the shots or whatever was required over the years-the vet would have known if someone was looking for it.

Garysgirl,

You are not a thief. You are not a liar. Your family did a wonderful thing by giving the little guy a wonderful home.

GardenWeb has gotten very vicious and violent lately. It's not much fun anymore.

I'm just as guilty as you of being some of the shockingly insulting things you're being called. I "stole" a kitten.

I was in college, living in a not great neighborhood, about a mile from a different college. I came home and heard a cat wailing in my building. I came inside and found a little orange kitten screaming in terror in front of the elevator. Another woman was there, holding her young son back. She told me she was terrified of cats. This was kind of amusing since it was just a frightened little kitten. But I picked the kitten up. He immediately stopped crying and started to purr. Obviously he had been a pet. He was used to people. He was also bone thin and hadn't had a decent meal in quite some time.

I already had cats. I had no intention of adopting another, but I kept him while I put an ad in the paper, put up flyers around the neighborhood, and talked to the local vets.

No one claimed him. After two months--during which time he practically doubled in size--I came to the conclusion that he was mine.

He became diabetic four years later, and I spent 13 years giving him insulin twice a day.

Now frankly, I don't care if some vicious, mealy-mouthed gossips on a website somewhere call me a thief or a liar. My kitty didn't think of me as a thief. He thought of me as mommy. And he lived a long, happy life.

Lisa... you in Orlando too huh? Small world! cjhwillis, you understood correctly... I called just to make the appointment. I waited until I had him neutered and made the found animal report at that time in person.