Just one clarification to start - does the 148" x 148" include the dining room? If not, what are the dimensions with the dining room?

The 138" square is just the kitchen. The dining room is almost exactly the same size, 138" x 136". Plus there's the width of the wall between, about 5".

I remember you and your kitchen, Flying_C! I don't remember all the details - and unfortunately no longer have the plans I drew up saved on my computer - but I remember creating a U-shaped kitchen with the oven in the closet space, facing the kitchen. And hooks behind the door - you wanted a mudroom space, IIRC. I added a banquette in the DR. I remember the plumbing stack restriction, too. Made placing the fridge tricky. I remember that we couldn't steal space from the bathroom because the tub was up against the wall shared with the kitchen.

I understand wanting to start from scratch but if you have the old sketches, it would be helpful if you posted them and told us why you think those plans won't work any more. It would also help if you told us what you liked about those plans.

Please tell us what appliances you have or intend to purchase. I can't remember if you had a range and a wall oven or a cook top and wall oven before but I do remember having to place a wall oven in your plans. Will you have a wall oven in addition to the range? What about a MW?

Here's a quick idea.

BC stands for Beverage Center. It takes over the existing closet for kitchen use.

No time to really explain the rest of the plan, gotta dash.

One downside of this plan: no pantry storage. I'll have a go at your kitchen again tomorrow.

I was able to find the old thread, but sadly a lot of the pics are gone, and I hadn't saved them :(. I'm sorry about that.

There are several changes from what we wanted then to what we want now. First, we've found another place in the house for a mudroom, so that's no longer needed. Second, I had hoped at that point for a 36" cooktop plus wall ovens. But in the meantime our range died and we ended up replacing it with a 30" double oven range, which I've made peace with - it's more realistic for the size of our kitchen, anyway. We've also had to replace our fridge and now have a 36" counter depth french door (it requires 30" depth including the handles and breathing room at the back) that I'd like to keep. That fridge is a complicating factor, however, since it won't fit in the hall closet (max 33" could be recessed there). We don't have a MW.

We had been looking for at least a little seating in the kitchen, but have decided that's not necessary, either.

And back then I wasn't so set on having a good view of the backyard. Now that kid 1 has gotten older, and kid 2 has come along, the usefulness of that has become clear.

Thanks again, and sorry I didn't save your pics!

Here is a link that might be useful: My old layout thread

I remember this kitchen, too. Was there a reason you couldn't move the back door? Isn't the only kitchen window on the other wall? If you could move the back door over 2' you'd have room for a 'back wall' of cabinets and appliances. Do you still want the hooks?

If you are removing the wall b/w the K and DR, you could have a peninsula b/w the two 'rooms' with some seating on the DR side?

Here's a quick idea...you might want a higher backsplash behind range or no seating...and french doors could be slider, etc. This gives you sink under window, range overlooking dining room and view out the back. If you're going to move the door, to make way for a fridge wall....why not take advantage of the view? :)
{{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

Lisa, that plan is very similar to one of the two plans we're looking at. The main difference is that the range is on the wall next to the fridge, and the sink is on the backyard wall (and we kept the hall closet as a pantry). We had hoped to be able to completely recess the plumbing stack and put the fridge in front of it (more toward the dining room). In fact, we were all set to go with this idea until we found out that the stack can't be recessed enough to do it. I'm worried that having the fridge on the kitchen side of the stack makes the corner between the sink and range just too tight (hence my other thread about prep space in small kitchens). Prep could happen on the island I suppose, but knowing my slobby ways, I just envision myself dropping stuff while crossing the aisle. I strongly suspect I'd be working in that corner more than on the island.

Lavender Lass, the back door can be moved, though only along the back wall (can't move to a different wall). Don't need hooks anymore.

Deedles, that's our other main idea, but can't figure out where to put the fridge in such a layout. It seems like the only possibility is to recess it into the hall closet space, which would 1) require us replacing our new fridge, and 2) lose us our pantry space. Neither of which are fatal objections, but obviously it would be nice to avoid them!

Thanks all, once again.

UGH...this is just one of those kitchens that ties your hands (mine was one of those as well). :)

Based on everything you wrote, and assuming you want to keep the existing almost 4 ft of window, the problem I run into is the range since you can't have a range under a window (at least not where I live). I'm also assuming you don't want to close off the doorway to the hallway.

This is my first thought.....

I would put the fridge on the 102 inch wall and then on the side that's closest to the door I would probably put some type of hooks for coat's or keys and/or cubbys for backpacks. Perhaps something narrower, but similar to this, but with the fridge on the other side of it, opening up to the wall with the window on it:

[Eclectic Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/eclectic-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2104) by Norcross Architects & Designers Cynthia Karegeannes, Registered Architect

I would try to make the rest of the kitchen a U going from the back door to a peninsula between the dining room and kitchen. I would make sure the sink is on the yard wall with the window, and maybe try to get the range on that wall as well. If the range wouldn't fit on that wall, then I'd put it in the corner like this:

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Charleston General Contractors Jamison Howard

If you don't like the idea of it being on the corner, then I'd put it in the peninsula if the ceiling joists run so that it's easy to exhaust externally.

I have a U and fridge + a 15" deep 18 or 21 wide pantry on the bathroom wall. I'm not sure about the size of the panels on the sides of the fridge' assumed 1" on each side.

DW is on the left of sink, and a blind corner cab next to it (you'll probably need a filler b/w the two to be able to open the DW door freely).Even with the filler I think you can have, b/w a 36" sink base and 36" corner susan, a 18-21" cab for trash or storage. Bev. fridge is at the end of the peninsula, I assumed wall depth as 4,5". One of the uppers on the DR side can be an appliance garage.

I would imagine you could vent the range in that location (overlooking dining room) since that's probably against a wall upstairs and a vent could be boxed in. Or you might be able to use a downdraft...

If not, you could swap the range and sink, but that might mean losing (or moving) the window, depending on your code.

Maybe something like this? :) {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

Actually, I think I like this one better....oh, and that's a plate rack by the sink. I love those!

This post was edited by lavender_lass on Sun, Feb 2, 14 at 17:05

I would honestly flip the dining room and the kitchen.

Ooo! Would flipping the two rooms be possible?

They wouldn't be able to easily see their kids playing in the backyard from the kitchen if they did. She stated that that's why she wanted the window.

Before, flipping was out of the question (due to style of home) but I don't know if that's still the case.....

But she would be able to see them in the living room, which would be more important to me. The window could still be there, and even made bigger if it was in the dinning room.

I came up with a U plan, too, but I put a pantry in the closet with the fridge anchoring one corner of the U.

You can leave part of the wall up just behind the fridge and make it a feature wall - hang kids' artwork or paint it with chalkboard paint - or just have a decorative wood panel put on the back of the fridge. The rest of that wall will be gone. It would look something like this:

[Traditional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2107) by Johns Island Architects & Designers Wayne Windham Architect, P.A.

I kept the aisle between DR and back door on the wide side - no narrower than 42" - to avoid traffic jams where you least want them.

The numbers on the cabs are the cab widths. You'll actually have 19.5" of counter to the right of the range.

I did not add a seating overhang. Your DR isn't large enough to accommodate both peninsula seating and a table and chairs. And you said island seating wasn't a priority. (-:

Here's a galley-style lay-out:

You lose the window on the side wall but you gain a wall of windows towards the back yard. Install tall windows to catch lots of light and action from the outside. Check code to know how low the sill can go.

The thick blue line behind the sink is a wall 42"-45" high, room to add a back splash, a disposal switch and outlets. It would look something like this:

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Seattle Architects & Designers Balance Associates Architects

Or this:

[Contemporary Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/contemporary-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2103) by Portland Design-Build Firms Square Deal Remodeling Co.

There would only be about 39" between fridge doors (not handles) and DW so it will be a bit tight when the DW door is open but I figured the DW across from the fridge was better than having it across from the range, plus you get a longer stretch of counter next to the sink and across from the range. But feel free to swap it if you think it would work better for you.

The Beverage Center/Pantry is in the hallway closet space. You could do drawers below or pull-out base cabs like the one pictured in the link below for storing pantry goods.

Here is a link that might be useful: Base Cabinet Pullout Wire Pantry Sink & Base Accessories

One more idea for you:

The solid blue is a wall behind the fridge.

The dotted lines indicate a slight overhang (6") beyond the cabinet backs. Not enough for seating and you don't need to do this, instead you can do the usual 1.5" counter overhang between the plumbing stack and the fridge wall. But I put it in, thinking that perhaps that little bit of extra counter would come in handy as a pass-through to the DR.

The red lines are a "what if" as in "what if you moved the window over and added more uppers to your kitchen?"

The plus of this plan is that it gives you a large expanse of continuous counter between sink and range. The downside is 2 narrow cabinets - 14" and 12". Plan them carefully so that they are useful and not wasted space (speaking as one who has 3 narrow cabinets).

Did we talk to you about frameless cabinets last time? For your small kitchen, frameless would be a big plus. You get as much usable storage as possible. You'd also gain an inch or so around the fridge. Our fridge cab will only be 38.5" wide and I can't tell you how delighted I am to gain 2.5" along that run!

My sister has the exact floor plan. Her kitchen is open to the dining room with only a short wall in between. There's a door on the kitchen side of the wall and a slider in the dining room. The office/sitting area is open to the LR and there's a slider in the office for backyard access. So for your small kitchen, I'd get the door out of there.

They expanded the kitchen into the bathroom space a few years ago and somehow moved the bathroom to the other side of the kitchen, where they have a large screened-in deck. I think they added a mudroom too. I haven't been back to the east coast since her remodel, so I couldn't tell you exactly how they integrated it in.

I have a small U with a peninsula that separates kitchen from dining room. If you chose that lay-out, you won't have room for peninsula seating, but you will have an uninterrupted, deep counter for "canning, preserving, sprouting, fermenting, brewing, the lot." Mine is 38" deep. I put 12" deep cabinets and shelves on the dining room side of my peninsula to dress it up.

Another U, fridge on the bath wall.

If the distance b/w the fridge and the back wall is 58" you'll have 36" at the pinch point from the back door. The peninsula is 72" in total giving you 40" b/w the corners of the fridge and the peninsula. You may have a shallow (5-6") cab or open shelves next to the fridge.

I just don't know if I'd want to walk through the back door...and into the fridge. That's what was nice about recessing the old one, but not possible with the new one.

I'd still rather move the door and have a view out the back. Just my two cents :)

I think OP prefers prepping b/w the sink and the range, so tried to maximize that area.

How's this; with a movable workstation/?

I'm not sure how it would look like in RL, but in drawings this is how the fridge (if it's on the bathroom wall) would look like from the back entry.

I'm not keen on the fridge just inside the back door, either. I remember how my kids tore through the kitchen and out the back door when they were younger; a clear path is a good thing!

I prefer a peninsula over an island. Even with aisles as narrow as 36" (32-33" in front of the fridge), there's only room for a 15" wide island, which isn't very usable. Any wider than that and I think it would always be in someone's way.

Wow, thanks everyone! I don't have a lot of time to reply tonight, will be back again tomorrow with a better response. Just wanted to answer a couple of questions that came up:

First, swapping the rooms isn't doable both for budget reasons and because I think we'd have to raise the front windows to get counter under them, which would make the front of the house look wrong.

Frameless cabs definitely yes.

Also, I should've made clear that the existing kitchen window can be closed off if necessary. It basically looks out onto the side of the neighbors' house. It'd be nice to have some window on that wall if possible, because light is nice, but not essential. We have nice views (not, you know, stunning seaside views, but views we enjoy) out of the front dining room window and toward the back yard, but the sides are nothing interesting.

Will be back tomorrow with more substantive replies on people's layouts. But thank you again till then.

I have the same problem where I pen my back door and face the side of the fridge...I ended up adding a chalkboard:

I went onto houzz and searched "side of fridge" to find inspiration. Maybe something like this could work?

[Transitional Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/transitional-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2112) by Mississauga Interior Designers & Decorators Gabriele Pizzale Design Inc.

OR maybe just put up a picture like this one:

[Farmhouse Kitchen[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/farmhouse-kitchen-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_709~s_2114) by Austin Interior Designers & Decorators Van Wicklen Design

One more idea...with a prep sink by fridge, under window to backyard. This would give you a chance to prep looking out at kids in yard....or prep looking out at kids in dining room :)

Just added the banquette, hutch and plant for fun! Don't know if the banquette will work with your windows..... {{!gwi}}From Kitchen plans

Thanks again everyone. Okay, thoughts:

I'm pretty sure we don't want to try and put the fridge on the DR wall, even if we open up the rest of the wall. We get a lot of nice light through the DR windows, and I'm just really looking forward to having a long, unobstructed view across the space (to the point of probably skipping pendants over any island/peninsula that we end up with, to avoid cluttering up the sightlines). So, while those do solve the thorny fridge issue, I think they're out.

Lisa's galley plan is intriguing, though I'd be worried about the DW-fridge conflict (and I'm not sure a DW-range conflict would be any better. Will try and mock it up.

Sena01, thanks for those ideas and the great renderings. I'm of two minds about the fridge in that position. It solves the functional problems of the kitchen, but, but. When I stand in the space and envision it, it feels off to me, aesthetically. Usually when a kitchen has a U plus fridge wall, the fridge wall runs straight across rather than bulging out the way ours would. Still thinking about how much this would bother me, and whether dressing up the fridge enclosure like magsnj suggests would make it better.

May_flowers, I'd love to get the back door out of the kitchen, but that's not really possible because of the way our lot is: the house is set into the side of a hill, and the approach to the house is on the kitchen/DR side, so to access a back door in the office room (which is actually a playroom right now) would mean walking all the way to the far side of the house. Also, this is a 3 bedroom house, with 2 up and 1 down, and if we put an exterior door into it, I think we'd compromise its bedroom-ness in terms of resale. (We have a 5 year plan: 5 more years in this house, then reevaluate as to whether we want to move or add on, moving being more likely I think.)

Lavender, interesting ideas with moving the back door - might just work. Going to play with those and get back to you.

I was thinking of a French door in the bedroom. Many master bedrooms have them, so it wouldn't seem odd. And then move the kitchen door to between the DR and kitchen.

Here's a tweak on the galley plan I posted above:

I shifted the range down, giving you 44" of counter between range and fridge - plenty of room to spread out with your canning projects - and 18" on the other. That move allowed me to put the DW on the other side of the sink; it's no longer going to interfere with fridge or range. This plan gives you 25.5" of counter to the left of the sink and 40.5" to the right.

I reduced the aisle between back wall and island from 42" (which I neglected to put on Plan C, oops) to 36". There aren't any drawers or doors opening into this aisle so IMO, you can get by with 36".

Ask your contractor is you can build the wall behind the sink as a "skinny" 2x4 wall by turning the 2x4s used to construct the wall perpendicular to how they're normally used and using shallow electric boxes (1-1/2" deep vs standard 2-1/2", not sure applicable for GF circuits). This would gain you 2" more aisle room, to split between the two aisles or to put all in one or the other. It's not much but every inch counts in a small space.

The "CC" area to the left of the fridge is your Command Center. A shallow cabinet facing the DR to house the family calender, charging station, papers, etc. You can make it deeper than I show, just watch your clearances between it and your table.

btw, I'm assuming that you did purchase a 48" round table as you were planning to do several years ago and that you're still opposed to going with a banquette in the DR. This is why my kitchen plans do not exceed the current kitchen's footprint.

Moving the back door from the kitchen to the side of the DR is an intriguing idea. Is that possible, function- and budget-wise? It would open up additional possibilities for your kitchen. But I'd want to know what size table you do own so that moving the door doesn't create a lay-out challenge while relieving another.

Just for grins, I drew up a kitchen plan that moves the doorway to the backyard to the side wall.

I estimated your table's diameter and total length when extended (assumed one 18" leaf). Even extended, the only tight pinch point is the front wall but since there would only be one seat at that end, it's doable. You could always add a bit more room around the table by ending the counter on the range run at the plumbing stack, not even with it.

Beverage center to the right of the sink, oodles of storage for dishes, glasses etc to the right, too. The 6" pull-out to the right of the DW can hold supplies for the Soda Stream, etc. And check out the stretch of counter on the range run! The only negative that I can see is a lack of a convenient landing zone for the pantry.

There's still a fairly straight-forward path from backyard to bathroom, too (always a plus with little kids, especially it you're still potty training).

My thinking in moving the door was how much you use a kitchen versus how often you and the kids need direct access to the backyard. No, it isn't ideal, but it's going to be difficult to get enough counter space for all your kitchen activities with the door there.

Man, I wish we could move the door over there :(. But it would open into thin air and a 9 foot vertical drop onto the driveway. The house is set into a hill, and that side has a daylight basement with garage under the house (directly under the kitchen, in fact). At the top of the driveway there's a retaining wall and steps leading up to the back yard, which is at 1st floor level. Sigh.

We did end up getting a 48" round table, Lisa, with an 18" leaf.
I'm open to stealing a bit of space from the DR, though, especially if it's just on one edge of the room. For example, in your galley plans I've been mentally adding a beverage center on the dining room side of the fridge, maybe an 18-21" cab that'd be notched around the plumbing stack.

I suspected there might be a drop but you could add a raised deck over the driveway - would need to check how to support it but a contractor can help with that - that extends to the backyard. It wouldn't have to be wider than 3'-4', just enough for an aisle.

Maybe this image will help you visualize what's possible:

[Traditional Exterior[(https://www.houzz.com/photos/traditional-exterior-home-ideas-phbr1-bp~t_736~s_2107) by Chesterfield Design-Build Firms Heartlands Building Company

Anyhoo, don't rule out moving the door just yet. It may be more doable than you think.

As for adding a beverage center to the left of the fridge in my Plan E, I did the math for you. If you added an 18" cab, notched out to fit around the plumbing stack, you'd end up with 36" between counter edge and a 48" dia. table. When extended, you'd definitely have a pinch point; that 36" shrinks down to 28", making it very difficult for people to get to the seats along the exterior wall.

Turning the table to extend width-wise, not length-wise, doesn't help the matter much. You'd have 34.5" on the 48" wide ends of the table. That will make it difficult for people walking from the front door to your kitchen.

A 48" dia table fits your space, it's when you expand it that things get tricky. You could do what we plan to do: bump-out the front wall with a bow or bay window. The footprint of the room stays the same but you gain the sense of elbow room around the table. (We inherited my great-grandparents' 48" dia. quarter-sawn oak pedestal table and our DR is only 10' wide. We're doing just that to gain the needed space around the table. Won't give up the table, can't afford to add on.)

Are you dead set against a banquette? That's the only way I think you could extend the kitchen into the DR without the DR feeling very cramped, like an afterthought.

Hi,

I am Flying_C's husband - she's been finding it hard to follow up on the forum due to looking after the kids and other time commitments. So I'm helping to follow up since I can look at the forum occasionally while at work.

lisa_a: Thank you for the example raised deck. It would make the layout a lot better if we could put the door in the side of the house, but unfortunately it is not really practical. A deck on that side would be over the driveway where we park our cars.

Here's a photo to illustrate the layout, since it's probably more helpful than description!

With regards to the position of the dining table, it's true that the space can be a little tight when it is extended, but since we only extend it on rare occasions it is something we can live with. We've found that since it is oval when extended we can put seats kind of at the corners instead of right at the end, and that makes slightly better use of the available space.

My photo above also shows why we couldn't really bump out the front wall - the steps to the front door are there.

Neither of us is really a fan of the banquette. I think it would make quite a difference to the feel of the room.

This is the rough plan our contractor put together based on Flying_C's island idea. We wondered if you had any comments on it?

The space between the range and refrigerator is a bit of a compromise - maybe 12-15". The corner the other side of the range is likely to be the main cooking space. If someone is working there then someone else should be able to unload the DW or get to the sink or fridge from the other sides.

We can use the island for baking around with the kids or other prep.

I think Flying_C mentioned before that I have knee problems and we were trying to figure out a place for me to sit, but I've since realized that a lot of kitchen tasks need me to stand up anyway so it's not a priority. For example, if I'm chopping veg I stand up because it's the right angle to operate the knife efficiently.

Thanks for any thoughts you might have!