Wow, I'd forgotten about this thread and a LOT has changed for my ratings in the last four years. Vaporvac - sorry it took a while to get back to you about your question. Disneyland lasted about 3 years for me grafted from J&P then died, so I replaced it own root about 2 years ago. It didn't come back last winter but that's one that i still pine after and will probably replace whenever I can. There's something about the solid "pow" of color that makes my heart sing, and to top it off my son wrote the name tag for that rose when he was about 9 so it has a sentimental value that way too. Moses, glad this is helpful, but to be really helpful I need to update the listing above quite a bit. For starters, very few Harkness roses are hardy for me in zone 5, with the exception of Samaritan and Volunteer in a normal zone 5 spot and Savoy Hotel and Well Being which are grafted and in my zone 6 pocket. A few of the climbers by Harkness are also hardy - Perpetually Yours and The Prince's Trust are several years old and Ginger Syllabub has survived my zone 4 pocket - but they almost never bloom. Olive is a better bloomer (a few blooms a year) but it's no more than 4' tall after about 4 years. I still do have some Harkness survivors in my yard that surprised me when I did a search - Apricot Abundance and Honor Elizabeth, International Herald Tribune are just barely hanging in there and Easy Does It and Livin' Easy have lasted sporadically but usually die off after a year or two. Armada, Bridge of Sighs, Carris, and Pride of England have only lasted one winter and that's not enough to consider them hardy yet. I've started to nix roses bred by Harkness on principle as marginally hardy in the way that Viragharavian roses simply aren't bred for my climate. It sounds like I have a lot of Harkness roses but given how many he bred and how many roses I have, it's not that many (compare that to 50+ thriving roses each for Kordes, Lim and Austin and you get the picture). OK, so here's my updated list from above with notes on whether I'd still rate them in the same group or not. Floribunda Roses hardier than expected in zone 5 (those w/ an asterisk are in a zone 4 pocket) 1 - cane hardy (w/hybridizer) Black Cherry - Zary (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) Black Ice - Gandy (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) *Bolero - Meilland (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) Bonica - Meilland Brothers Grimm Fairy Tale - Kordes (50/50 if it has surviving cane or not) Champagne Moment - Kordes Cherry Parfait - Meilland (50/50 if it has surviving cane or not) Cinco de Mayo - Carruth (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) Easy Does It - Harkness (put this one a 3 for me - needs my zone 6 pocket) *Eutin - Kordes *First Edition - Delbard (probably a 2 since it died in that cold spot) *Floral Fairy Tale - Kordes Grand Duc Henri - Lens (was cane hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Gruss an Aachen - Geduldig *Hannah Gordon - Kordes *Heaven on Earth - Kordes Heimatmelodie - Tantau (I'd bump this one down to a 4 - only lasted a year or two) *Hot Cocoa - Carruth *LavaGlut - Kordes Pink Emely/Bad Worishofen - Kordes Pink Gruss an Aachen - Kluis (50/50 if it has surviving cane or not) Pinocchio - Kordes (was cane hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Pomponella Fairy Tale - Kordes (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) Pretty Lady - Scrivens Puerto Rico - Delbard (I'd bump this one down to a 4 - only lasted a year or two) Rainforest - Moore (I'd bump this one down to a 3 - I've replaced in my zone 6) Sunsprite/Friesia - Kordes (probably a 2 - not cane hardy but reliable after winters) World's Fair - Kordes (was cane hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Flori2 - root hardy (w/hybridizer) Amberlight - Le Grice Anne Harkness - Harkness (not hardy more than 1 year even in my zone 6 pocket) Bahia - Lammerts (probably a 3 - lasted several years & I'm replacing into zone 6) Bengal Tiger - Kealovetz (totally wimpy rose never more than 1-2' and finally died) Blueberry Hill - Carruth (probably a 3 - lasted several years & I'm replacing in zone 6) Burgundy Iceberg - Swane (not hardy more than 1 year even in my zone 6 pocket) Chic - Boerner (was hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Chihuly - Carruth Chrysler Imperial - Lammerts Colorific - Carruth Confetti - Christensen Disneyland - Zary (probably a 3 - lasted several years & I'm replacing in zone 6) Elina/Peaudouce - Dickson (was hardy but the graft died out and I'm replacing it) Escapade - Harkness (not hardy more than 1 year even in my zone 6 pocket) Everest Double Fragrance - Beales George Burns - Carruth Guinevere/Louisa Stone - Harkness (probably a 3 - lasted several years, don't want to replace it as it wasn't very exciting) Hettie - Barden (probably a 3 - lasted several years, I'm waiting to see if RV has it) International Herald Tribune - Harkness (had to replace once, probably a 3) Julia Child - Carruth Lilac Dawn - Swim & Weeks (was hardy but the graft died out and I'm replacing it) Marieken - RVS Mardi Gras - Zary Melvin - Jerabek Moondance - Zary October Moon - Barden (has survived several years in zone 6 spot) Olympiad - McGredy Oranges 'n' Lemons - McGredy Pillow Talk - Weeks (wimpy 2a rose, but it was in a poor spot and died over time) Playboy - Cocker (not hardy more than a year or two even in my zone 6 pocket) Singin in the Rain - McGredy (not hardy more than a year or two even in my zone 6 pocket) South Africa - Kordes (not hardy for me - I simply can't overwinter this Kordes) Tempi Moderni - Barni (not hardy more than a year or two even in my zone 6 pocket) Trumpeter - McGredy Wishing/Georgie Girl - Dickson (was hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace) Flori2a - root hardy but wimps (w/hybridizer) Ebb Tide - Carruth (bump this down to a 4 for me - has died in my zone 6 pocket) Hiroshima's Children - Harkness (not hardy more than 1 year) Irish Hope - Harkness (lasted a couple of years in zone 6 pocket but wimpy) JC Thornton - BEES (bump this up to regular 2, in zone 6 pocket) Kiss of Fire - Gaujard (not hardy more than a year or two ) Our Lady of Guadalupe - (own root OLOG is doing better than grafted one) Valentine - Swim (same as above - I'm replacing mine this year in zone 6 pocket) Flori3 - root hardy in protected site - zone 6 pockets (w/hybridizer) Drop Dead Red - Carruth (iffy for me, probably a 4 - both times grafted) Flash - Barni Grimaldi - Delbard Hot Chocolate - Simpson (not hardy more than a year or two) Innocencia Vigorosa - Kordes (probably better, but wimpy rose) Isabella Rosselini - Poulsen (iffy for me, probably a 4 - both times grafted) Lili Marlene - Kordes Minuette - Lammerts (iffy for me, probably a 4 own root) Sammy - Athy (iffy for me, probably a 4 - grafted) Summer Dream - Warriner Tickles - Dykstra Tiki - McGredy Wavria - Lens (iffy for me, probably a 4 - grafted) Flori4 - hardy only with protection (w/hybridizer) Atlantic City - Jolly (lasted a few years then faded) Daily Sketch - McGredy (might be better) Erfordia - Matthews (This one bumps up to a 2 - a rock star all summer bloomer) Guy de Maupassant - Meilland (bump up to a 3, has lasted in zone 6 pocket) Gypsy Carnival - Suzuki (dead) Little Darling - Duehrsen (dead) Mauve Melodee - Raffel (lasted several years before fading, might be a 3) Mellow Yellow - Carruth (might be better) Outrageous - Zary (might be better) Pride of England - Harkness (on its second try) Purple Heart - Carruth (dead) Spice of Life - Dickson (dead) Tenacious - McGredy (This one bumps up to a 2) Tuscan Sun - Zary (This one bumps up to a 2) Zambra - Meilland (lasted a few years then faded) That leaves the following as the floribundas that are the hardiest for me for the most years in zone 5, down to zone 4 if * (I haven't checked the ones planted since 2013): Bonica - Meilland Champagne Moment - Kordes *Eutin - Kordes *Floral Fairy Tale - Kordes Gruss an Aachen - Geduldig *Hannah Gordon - Kordes *Heaven on Earth - Kordes *Hot Cocoa - Carruth *LavaGlut - Kordes Pink Emely/Bad Worishofen - Kordes Pinocchio - Kordes (was cane hardy but the graft died out and I can't replace it) Pretty Lady - Scrivens Anyone surprised to see Kordes leading the pack? I didn't think so... Cynthia

Hi Cliff I'm so glad you dropped by to see this tribute! I'd thought about dropping you an email to show you the ED roses in context in my own yard but I got to thinking about how huge an email that would be. Besides, I knew we had many other GW folks wanting to show off their bounty from your nursery. Like Beth, I am also loving my Andre Willemse, First Great Western, Twice in a Blue Moon, and Gilbert Becaud from you, but she has better photos than I do of most of those (particularly the lavenders). It's wonderful to look through these photos and see the striking variety of colors and textures across the different roses! Increasing that diversity is one of the many things we have to be grateful about from the ED legacy. Seil, I admit I hadn't known that Trump Card had anything to do with Donald Trump, and I find the pun better than the man it refers to by a long shot. Not only is Trump Card a nicer color combination than Rosie O'Donnell, the latter is a name I really would have to struggle to include in my yard. Nastarana, thanks for the reminder about Sesame Street and Buffy St. Marie. It's amazing how much of our cultural heritage is linked to shows like that from our childhood, though I hesitate to admit I only knew of that show from the kids I babysat (I was a Romper Room child myself - oooh, now that dates me). I'm glad we've been able to get a chorus of folks posting their roses growing from Eurodesert, and now that Cliff has dropped by it's a great chance to drop him a thanks or tell of a favorite story related to one of his roses. Cynthia

I always thought the gravel of any size garden representing ocean was lacking once I saw Hokusia Blockprints in a Barnes n Nobles book..cheap too..like 10 dollars ha. : ) Not knowing anything of blockprints to be honest I flipped through art and realized anything in blockprints to be copied using rocks was limited when it came to a rock looking exactly like the blockprints image. But to place rocks roughly as blockprints images are situated is easy. Hokusias Waves "Mount Fuji Seen Above the Waves " ( From picture book 100 views of Mt Fuji Volume .2 published by Nishimuraya Yohachi , 1835 Wow!!! ..there is something with forward and curving motion, hieghts undulating ..lots of energy ..Wave power.Ocean rising so High with wave power your looking at shoreline of evergreen trees tops a few hundred yards away but they might asbe a mile away . And the wave is reaching with tendrils of frothy fingers . Just idea that all the raked gravel..all the flat expanses meaning water in gardens is well..Could be better. Could be having blockprints nature . So I looked for a highly !! highly truly curving metamorphic bedrock of material that is made of gray an black material. On lighter side though..more whites. Walked along shoreline of lake having this type of bedrock. Laying there in small proportion is Hokusias Wave style . ..One foot long stone maybe 5 inches high to right sloping down to centimeter high to the left ..looks like 30 foot long cross section of even longer wave in ocean . Stone is curving and reaching forward like blockprints . Stones grain also curves with striations following waves motion folding forward but also its spiraling direction..seen in front and back of stone . Where Hokusias genius added frothy finger like tendrils of white froth animating the wave, the stone lacks. So here is perfect incomplete stone where you can imagine the frothy technique Hokusia used . Place this one stone in the gravel..just one stone in sea , ocean..One wave . A rare stone..a rare wave, a rare blockprints wave. And one Boulder..a Mt Fuji Boulder..rare boulder. Might take you 5 years to find two stones. for a 10 by 10 garden of gravel. A Mountain and a wave within gravel. Place a curving narrow piece sun bleached driftwood into gravel before wave.. when your bored after raking gravels .There is the boat from block print entitled " The GReat Waves of Kanagawa " . Placed to look like fallen debri. Plant a small tree with sun bleached dead branches near Mountain..as if that tree dropped the twig after you raked gravel.Mands hand in the gardens painting mimicking fallen debri while ironically saying here is the boat from blockprint. Debri fallen from tree in garden looks as if drifted into the ocean..Yet for the Block Print enthusiast one see's a narrow fishing boat ready to sluice into wave and smiles. Copying an exhisting work of art into a new medium (block print to stone) choosing stone untouched by mans hand created by will of nature yet direct representational art of exhisting art in smaller form of the block print's mountain wave and boat. Its only verifying that age old concept anything you see in the universe..You can find already made by nature . Even Hokusias block print. I think this would be different than taking numbered art aspect kids use in grade school. Example I gave is like trying to find postcards sent by an artist from another realm like postcards from Hokusia's essence found on ground and assembled into garden. The block prints are therefore innovative inspiration and for me creating much excitement . I'm sure if I did this same garden because I always found locations where there are waves like Hokusia's in stone laying on ground and many Mt. Fujis ..then nature gave me too much. I would have to admit the spirit of human natures love for mystery came to an end .Would be same as cookie cutter design. I know I wouldn't be first person then who found a rare stone that was same as Hokusia's wave and used it in Kare San Sui style garden.

For many, 1933 was only part-way into the depression, commonly called the Dirty Thirties in this area. The year 1937 was a pretty bad one in our area, according to Dad, who had a fairly large farm, for those days. He said that somewhere in the late 30s, maybe around the time that World War II started in1939, when he was 38 when he was talking/(complaining) to his banker that it seemed as though he'd worked really hard in the past ten years but gotten nowhere, the banker disagreed. He pointed out that Dad had upgraded his car, got a better tractor (twice, actually), drilled a well beside the house and installed running water (but no bathroom, which might have happened had Mom been around) and put in place a waterline from the well to three barns, one at a substantial distance. While many/most of the local citizens had upgraded nothing, or almost so. I was 10 in 1939, and the farmhands went to war ... so for the next six years, what Dad and that 10-year-old, (16 years old in '45) and couple of younger boys got done ... got done ... and what didn't - didn't! ole joyful