I'm confused...you say you cannot move the sink & range b/c of budget but then you say "...the sky is kindof the limit...."?

I understand the "minus plumb and electric", but if you're doing everything else yourself, doesn't that leave more for those items?

I wanted to bring up one other thing that might help save you $$ that can be used for moving plumbing & gas (especially since you're DIY)....

Have you considered IKEA cabinets? They are much less expensive than the vast majority of decent cabinets out there. People here who have them really like them, they come with some of the "bells & whistles" others pay more for, and Consumer Reports rates them highly. Even if you don't like the door styles they offer, you can get doors now (maybe the least expensive) and then order doors later from a place like Scherr's that makes doors and even has the template for drilling the holes for IKEA cabinets.

Just a thought...

OK...These two options are probably the best I can do for you if the range & sink are left as-is:

Oh, FYI...your measurements don't add up...vertically there's a 1" difference (may simply be caused by uneven walls) but in the horizontal direction, I came up with a 7" difference (that's why you see the "jut" of gray wall in the pics near the sink...the 7" difference). I hope the larger # is the correct one!

Layout #1: DW opposite the range...I think is the best of the two, btw.

...

Layout #2: DW on range wall...

In both cases

• The Prep Zone will be b/w the sink & range...that's the natural place for prepping.

  • In the first layout, there's some conflict b/w the range & DW, but with a 47" aisle I'm hoping you'll be able to live with it.

  • Also in the first layout, the DW is not in the middle of the Prep Zone...but it is in the second layout

  • In the second layout, there isn't any room to stand at the sink when the DW is open...but you don't have a DW yet...

The range doesn't really have enough safety margin on the right...but at least w/the door swing the way it is it does provide some protection of the range when it's open.
By moving the refrigerator down, it opens up that entire upper portion of the kitchen. It will be a little far from the Prep Zone, but close to the range. However, I think, it's a good compromise to open up the kitchen as well as add counter space.
I do think you're going to need upper cabinets on the left side...but I wouldn't put them on the window wall. I think the Kitchen will still look much more open even w/upper cabs on the left wall.
The location of the refrigerator in the lower kitchen makes a natural place for a Snack Center, btw.
I put in uppers & lowers in the lower portion

of the kitchen rather than pantry cabs since you prefer that. By putting in...

I'm confused...you say you cannot move the sink & range b/c of budget but then you say "...the sky is kindof the limit...."?

I understand the "minus plumb and electric", but if you're doing everything else yourself, doesn't that leave more for those items?

I wanted to bring up one other thing that might help save you $$ that can be used for moving plumbing & gas (especially since you're DIY)....

Have you considered IKEA cabinets? They are much less expensive than the vast majority of decent cabinets out there. People here who have them really like them, they come with some of the "bells & whistles" others pay more for, and Consumer Reports rates them highly. Even if you don't like the door styles they offer, you can get doors now (maybe the least expensive) and then order doors later from a place like Scherr's that makes doors and even has the template for drilling the holes for IKEA cabinets.

Just a thought...

OK...These two options are probably the best I can do for you if the range & sink are left as-is:

Oh, FYI...your measurements don't add up...vertically there's a 1" difference (may simply be caused by uneven walls) but in the horizontal direction, I came up with a 7" difference (that's why you see the "jut" of gray wall in the pics near the sink...the 7" difference). I hope the larger # is the correct one!

Layout #1: DW opposite the range...I think is the best of the two, btw.

...

Layout #2: DW on range wall...

In both cases

• The Prep Zone will be b/w the sink & range...that's the natural place for prepping.

  • In the first layout, there's some conflict b/w the range & DW, but with a 47" aisle I'm hoping you'll be able to live with it.

  • Also in the first layout, the DW is not in the middle of the Prep Zone...but it is in the second layout

  • In the second layout, there isn't any room to stand at the sink when the DW is open...but you don't have a DW yet...

The range doesn't really have enough safety margin on the right...but at least w/the door swing the way it is it does provide some protection of the range when it's open.
By moving the refrigerator down, it opens up that entire upper portion of the kitchen. It will be a little far from the Prep Zone, but close to the range. However, I think, it's a good compromise to open up the kitchen as well as add counter space.
I do think you're going to need upper cabinets on the left side...but I wouldn't put them on the window wall. I think the Kitchen will still look much more open even w/upper cabs on the left wall.
The location of the refrigerator in the lower kitchen makes a natural place for a Snack Center, btw.
I put in uppers & lowers in the lower portion

of the kitchen rather than pantry cabs since you prefer that. By putting in...

I'm confused...you say you cannot move the sink & range b/c of budget but then you say "...the sky is kindof the limit...."?

I understand the "minus plumb and electric", but if you're doing everything else yourself, doesn't that leave more for those items?

I wanted to bring up one other thing that might help save you $$ that can be used for moving plumbing & gas (especially since you're DIY)....

Have you considered IKEA cabinets? They are much less expensive than the vast majority of decent cabinets out there. People here who have them really like them, they come with some of the "bells & whistles" others pay more for, and Consumer Reports rates them highly. Even if you don't like the door styles they offer, you can get doors now (maybe the least expensive) and then order doors later from a place like Scherr's that makes doors and even has the template for drilling the holes for IKEA cabinets.

Just a thought...

OK...These two options are probably the best I can do for you if the range & sink are left as-is:

Oh, FYI...your measurements don't add up...vertically there's a 1" difference (may simply be caused by uneven walls) but in the horizontal direction, I came up with a 7" difference (that's why you see the "jut" of gray wall in the pics near the sink...the 7" difference). I hope the larger # is the correct one!

Layout #1: DW opposite the range...I think is the best of the two, btw.

...

Layout #2: DW on range wall...

In both cases

• The Prep Zone will be b/w the sink & range...that's the natural place for prepping.

  • In the first layout, there's some conflict b/w the range & DW, but with a 47" aisle I'm hoping you'll be able to live with it.

  • Also in the first layout, the DW is not in the middle of the Prep Zone...but it is in the second layout

  • In the second layout, there isn't any room to stand at the sink when the DW is open...but you don't have a DW yet...

The range doesn't really have enough safety margin on the right...but at least w/the door swing the way it is it does provide some protection of the range when it's open.
By moving the refrigerator down, it opens up that entire upper portion of the kitchen. It will be a little far from the Prep Zone, but close to the range. However, I think, it's a good compromise to open up the kitchen as well as add counter space.
I do think you're going to need upper cabinets on the left side...but I wouldn't put them on the window wall. I think the Kitchen will still look much more open even w/upper cabs on the left wall.
The location of the refrigerator in the lower kitchen makes a natural place for a Snack Center, btw.
I put in uppers & lowers in the lower portion

of the kitchen rather than pantry cabs since you prefer that. By putting in...

I'm confused...you say you cannot move the sink & range b/c of budget but then you say "...the sky is kindof the limit...."?

I understand the "minus plumb and electric", but if you're doing everything else yourself, doesn't that leave more for those items?

I wanted to bring up one other thing that might help save you $$ that can be used for moving plumbing & gas (especially since you're DIY)....

Have you considered IKEA cabinets? They are much less expensive than the vast majority of decent cabinets out there. People here who have them really like them, they come with some of the "bells & whistles" others pay more for, and Consumer Reports rates them highly. Even if you don't like the door styles they offer, you can get doors now (maybe the least expensive) and then order doors later from a place like Scherr's that makes doors and even has the template for drilling the holes for IKEA cabinets.

Just a thought...

OK...These two options are probably the best I can do for you if the range & sink are left as-is:

Oh, FYI...your measurements don't add up...vertically there's a 1" difference (may simply be caused by uneven walls) but in the horizontal direction, I came up with a 7" difference (that's why you see the "jut" of gray wall in the pics near the sink...the 7" difference). I hope the larger # is the correct one!

Layout #1: DW opposite the range...I think is the best of the two, btw.

...

Layout #2: DW on range wall...

In both cases

• The Prep Zone will be b/w the sink & range...that's the natural place for prepping.

  • In the first layout, there's some conflict b/w the range & DW, but with a 47" aisle I'm hoping you'll be able to live with it.

  • Also in the first layout, the DW is not in the middle of the Prep Zone...but it is in the second layout

  • In the second layout, there isn't any room to stand at the sink when the DW is open...but you don't have a DW yet...

The range doesn't really have enough safety margin on the right...but at least w/the door swing the way it is it does provide some protection of the range when it's open.
By moving the refrigerator down, it opens up that entire upper portion of the kitchen. It will be a little far from the Prep Zone, but close to the range. However, I think, it's a good compromise to open up the kitchen as well as add counter space.
I do think you're going to need upper cabinets on the left side...but I wouldn't put them on the window wall. I think the Kitchen will still look much more open even w/upper cabs on the left wall.
The location of the refrigerator in the lower kitchen makes a natural place for a Snack Center, btw.
I put in uppers & lowers in the lower portion

of the kitchen rather than pantry cabs since you prefer that. By putting in...

First off, WHY do the sink and range need to stay where they are?

- Budget? (You already got a quote to move them and know it's more than you can spend?)
- Slab foundation? (Can still be done, though not as easy as if you have a basement or crawlspace.)
- Some other reason?

The reason I ask, is that with the sink and range in those two locations, pretty much everything else is limited. Your prep zone will be between the sink and range. If there's a DW, it can't be optimally located next to the sink. Your fridge can either be in the way or inconvenient. And the two little cabinets on either side of your range will be so small they're not much use. In other words, the functionality of your kitchen really won't be able to change much, no matter what you do.

Now if you can move your sink, your range, or both, your options expand tremendously! Especially if you're willing to be flexible on your kitchen seating.

sweeby, the reason we can't move either of those is because of cost. We have looked into moving the gas/water lines and it is out of our budget when all is said and done. We have considered installing the DW on the wall to the left of the sink (there are currently cabs and counter there making a "U" formation). We're completely flexible with seating and any other layout issues though!

how many are in your family? kids - ages?

i don't see a lot of options really (buehl always blows that away tho).
you could put the fridge (cd) at the end of the bump out on the left with counter /cabs(upper/lower) up to it. the dw on the right under window area.

or you could run cabs all down that left side and put the fridge on the lower right next to the door. and then put cabs around as far as comfy to your table area. that area could include a broom closet space, pantry space and/or more dish storage (hutch type).

Right now our family is just the two of us, however we do want to be sensible of kids in the future...

I'd never thought of putting the fridge by the sink..hmmmm!

I just measured the "bump out area'' and a fridge would extend beyond that, taking up space in front of the sink...oh well!

{{gwi:2105462}}
To make it easier...

I need to ask and sorry if I missed it somehow, can that doorway on the right be moved down? Is that what goes to the sunroom? Is the sunroom used as an interior room?

remodelfla, Thank you! For some reason I can never get pictures to show up, I'd love to know the trick! To answer your questions, the door on the right cannot be moved, it does go into the sunroom which is used as an interior room, however it is an exterior wall.

I did a mach of my best idea for the kitchen, I'm really at a loss and this is the best I've come up with...the gallery it's in has a mach of the original eat-in floorplan as well as some pictures.

Here is a link that might be useful: My best foot forward!

OK... given that things should stay where they are here's what I'm thinking.
I might put the DW to the left of the stove with some kind of corner unit between it and the sink. I'd make the opposite run drawers for dish and cooking storage. I don't mind that much the frig on the other side of the door; not optimal but doable. It would work even better if you could put in one frig drawer maybe in the cooking area. I would not do an L run at the eating end of the kitchen. Just a straight run with the frig and base units with uppers and maybe the MW over there as a snack area. you could put your coffee maker over there but that would be a stretch for water. Too bad you can't fit a little sink over there... probably crazy for a smaller space. Thinking aloud here...;

I'm intrigued, I'm trying to figure out what you mean about a straight run ... you mean just facing the other side of the sink?

I think I've figured out how to get the picture to show, hopefully this will work :) {{gwi:2105463}}From Kitchen!

{{gwi:2105464}}From Kitchen!

For the DW, how would you get water in and draining out?

Is the plumbing readily accessible to have the DW remote from the sink like that? It involves both a water line and a drain line in that location since it is not right next to the sink.(And since moving waterlines is not in your budget...?) How deep is the area where you now show the DW? you show it significantly deeper than 24"--with a counterdepth fridge (not even a true counterdepth) you should be able to fit a fridge there if the drawing is correct.

I didn't realize you coulnd't move the DW unless I"m misunderstanding. I meant that the bottom by the eating area would not be an L. Just a straight run of cabinets from the frig to the wall.

We do not actually have a dishwasher right now. It is the only thing that we are not doing right away, we are of course working it into the plan but we are not actually installing one for probably another year. I'm not sure of the cost differences between having it on this side of the sink or the other, I'm sure that is something worth looking into! As far as the fridge goes, we can't see the sense in paying so much extra for a counter-depth, and average 32"D fridges will overhang by maybe 4"... it's possible my counters are a little skinny in the mach.

Beuhl where are you? I feel like I need the magic :)

Just saw this! I've been very busy w/work & kids events so...let me see what I can do with it tonight or tomorrow!

*** Warning...I'm going to be rather blunt in what follows ***

I've done a preliminary analysis and, as others have said or alluded to, the main problem is that you cannot change the location of two of the three primary appliances/fixtures and that severely limits what you can do. The three main components and their relationships to each other that determine the functionality of a Kitchen are the sink, range, and refrigerator (putting aside aisle widths and such). The fact that you cannot move two of these is a big limiting factor given the size and configuration of your space as well as the current location of those two components.

Now add to that the fact that (1) your range is really too close to the the sunroom door and (2) your sink is in a corner with no "elbow" or work room to its left and it's going to be difficult to do much to improve the functionality of the space.

So, some questions...

• I understand about the exterior wall issue. However, if the sunroom is treated like an interior room, then I assume it has been insulated, etc. and is usable year-round...please confirm. If so, then can you at least remove the window and the door? I'm not saying to alter them, I'm just saying remove the door and the glass-paned window...keeping the framing unmodified. That will help a little with traffic & "feel" since the swing of the door will no longer be an issue, the door itself will no longer add mass to the room, and the removal of the window will open up that wall & the kitchen somewhat...which, IIRC from another thread, is one of your goals.

I would definitely eliminate that corner cabinet as it is one of the things that jumps out at me as being too big/massive for the small space. (It feels "wrong"!) Will this be an issue?
When you say you cannot move the sink & range, would you be able to shift them a few inches?
When you add the DW, you will have to add additional plumbing...at least a drain and water pipe (hot or cold, depending on the DW). You will have to add that plumbing to one of the side walls since there's no room for a DW on the back wall.

• So, if you think adding the DW to the left wall is feasible, then why can you not move your sink there?

• Ditto if you move it to the right wall...

• I know, you don't plan to install the DW right now, but it will be less expensive and easier to plumb it now when cabinets are out and walls & floors are exposed than it will be later...so consider at least plumbing for it now..which leads back to the previous bullet points!

This one is probably going to raise eyebrows and may even get some people saying "no way!", but if moving the gas is a major expense, have you considered switching to an electric range? Hear me out!

For now, you could have a standard electric range (which, btw, is less expensive than a gas range), but later you could put in an induction range...many, if not most, who have switched from gas to induction have been very pleased...you...

Here are the measurements I need...

Yes, a lot of measuring, but I need all the information I can get!

Missed a few (the ones in yellow)!

OK...I couldn't wait, I had do something! :-)

Ideally, this is what I'd like do in your kitchen...

The Zones are separated, you have sufficient work space near the sink for Cleanup as well as prep and you have sufficient work and emergency landing space around the range.

Refrigerator is close to the Prep Zone (right of sink) and the Cooking Zone (where range is) as well as easily accessed by snackers from outside...and those snackers will not interfere with the work going on in the kitchen.

Oh, and the sink counters are approx 30" deep to give you more space for working as well as more room behind the sink for faucet, soap dispenser, etc. Once I get exact measurements I'll know if this is feasible. (To get the deeper counters inexpensively, pull the base cabinets 4-1/2" out from the wall.)

Note that I put the sink where the future DW & its plumbing would go and the DW is only a few inches away from the location of the old sink...but you may not need it b/c if the DW & sink are side-by-side like this, it simplifies DW plumbing immensely! The drain & water pipes are shared with the sink. In the long run, it may actually be cheaper to move the sink so the DW & sink can be side-by-side.

As to the range, if you switch to an electric, you may be able to use the old refrigerator's electrical connection...or you may need to upgrade it...not sure on this one. If you do have to upgrade, make it 50 amps so it can accommodate induction in the future.

OK, this is ideal.... So, where do we go from here?

First, please let me know the answers and your thoughts to the questions listed above (in the bulleted list).

Second, please provide me with the detailed measurements (A - W).

Once I have both, then we'll see.

Something to think about...is there something you can postpone that would allow you to add/move plumbing and/or gas? When remodeling and budget rears its ugly head, you should look at what can be postponed w/o causing issues later on...like a new floor or backsplash (BS) or decorative doors on cabinets, etc. Maybe skip soft-close on the drawers & doors, etc. Use less expensive wood for your cabinets for the same look (e.g., Alder instead of Cherry). Even consider temporarily using inexpensive laminate or butcher block counters instead of stone (granite, quartz, soapstone, etc.) or other higher priced counters (like high-end laminates or solid surface).

We had to cut quite a bit out for our budget and we did it by (1) changing to a less-expensive but similar door style, (2) postponing the BS, (3) postponing decorative end panels (fake doors), (4) building a drywalled pantry (and finishing the inside ourselves) instead of pantry cabinets, (5) going with a GE Profile double oven instead of a GE Profile single + Miele single oven and getting a very basic cooktop (future induction!), (6)...

Buehl,

You kind of answered my question, but just to clarify... If you plan ahead for induction, it's no big deal to use electric with that wiring until ready to make the switch?

That is correct...that is exactly what I did! I had them wire for the induction requirements (50amps) but I just have a basic electric cooktop using the circuit right now (I have to convince my DH that it's worth it!)

Buehl, oh my goodness you have a gift :) I will get straight to getting you all the measurements and answers...just a sec.

Ok, here are the measurements of the room...
{{gwi:2105468}}From Kitchen!

Here they are!!!

[I understand about the exterior wall issue. However, if the sunroom is treated like an interior room, then I assume it has been insulated, etc. and is usable year-round...please confirm]
The sunroom is insulated but unfortunately there is no heat run out there so in the winter months (i.e. now!) that door is always closed because of the minus degrees! However, we are eventually going to run heat so that space will be an all seasons room. I would assume that into the plan (as in the summer we will probably remove the door and in the winter it's always closed anyway).

[I would definitely eliminate that corner cabinet as it is one of the things that jumps out at me as being too big/massive for the small space. (It feels "wrong"!) Will this be an issue?]
is this the one on the bottom right? The big pantry? Yeah I think that it is very large and blocky, we were planning on removing it and putting it somewhere else in the house.

[When you say you cannot move the sink & range, would you be able to shift them a few inches?]
I think that the sink could move a few inches either way (as long as it was still in cabinetry, I mean when we install the new one we could just use a small extra piece to modify the pipe a couple inches).

[When you add the DW, you will have to add additional plumbing...at least a drain and water pipe (hot or cold, depending on the DW). You will have to add that plumbing to one of the side walls since there's no room for a DW on the back wall. So, if you think adding the DW to the left wall is feasible, then why can you not move your sink there?]
I think the answer is that we have lived without a dishwasher and will continue to be fine without one for a while, but obviously we need a sink the next year or so :) We had really wanted to avoid working with the plumbing this go-around, however if there is just a really improved way that requires moving it then we will for sure consider doing it now...especially in view of there being no cabinets there during reno.

[For now, you could have a standard electric range (which, btw, is less expensive than a gas range), but later you could put in an induction range...many, if not most, who have switched from gas to induction have been very pleased...]
I definitely hear your point and it would really make the reno easier, however I really don't cotton to induction cooking. My mom has tried to make the switch and it is just driving both of us crazy! I think that the gas range is something that I can't give up :)

[Do you have a pantry elsewhere? Would you like a walk-in or step-in pantry or other?]
Our "pantry" is the floor to ceiling cabinets on the bottom right (kindof in the eat-in section of old kitchen), however that is what we were wanting to move (perhaps) as I would probably prefer more counter with uppers and bases than a pantry...I don't know though, your thoughts?

The other measurements of the counters are...
there is 13"...

I'd be super interested in maybe the "best way" and then the "best way keeping the sink and stove where they are". We do all of our own work (minus plumb and electric) so the sky is kindof the limit...I would love to consider working an island in there but it may just be too narrow of a space...

You might want to get additional quotes for moving water and gas lines. We moved our gas stove about 12 feet from its old location and the move cost us just under $200, which we considered a small price to pay for the design benefits it afforded us. We had originally been quoted MUCH higher.

I also figured that moving plumbing would be astronomical, since we were on a slab, but we ended up paying just under $1,500 to have a 10-foot trench dug in our slab and new plumbing lines put in so I could have an island in my prep sink.

If you are ditching the ideas of moving your sink and stove after just one quote, I thought it might help to know that these costs vary widely. Getting additional quotes could free up some other options.

Buehl, Thank you so much for all your help! I have talked to the DH and I think we are going to go with your first idea, plumbing considerations aside, I think I actually prefer that one because I would have one whole counter on the left side with nothing on it to prep on, which I think I would really enjoy! I had not thought about the DW door...thank you for bringing that up. When I mentioned the sky's the limit I meant more creative-wise rather than budget-wise :)

Thank you so much everyone for your help! I'll be sure to post some pics as we get started. :)

I forgot to mention...I would consider changing the door swing to the Sunroom so it protects those going through the door from the range b/c the range is so close to the doorway.

*** Caution ***

If you need to pull permits or otherwise get inspections, I would check your local Code concerning proximity of a gas range to a doorway before settling on a layout or beginning work on it. There may or may not be a minimum distance required.

I'm not commenting on layout etc but I did want to note that your table only seats two. Do you have somewhere else to eat. I assume there are just two of you living in the house. Are you empty nesters or newly weds? Just asking 'cause if it's the latter and you plan on kids... well high chairs take up a LOT of room :)

Also is it an option to open the area under the stairs for additional storage?