Statistically speaking, half the population has below average intelligence. And then, opposites attract...

hmm, I'd rather not continue with THAT line of thought, lol.

this tells me i should be more compassionate and a little less irate at these people then. ive been told i dont suffer fools well, ouch & lol

And im thankful my GC is well over 99. the pool GC sure wasnt!

I had more trouble with the smart snakes on my last reno than the dim bulbs. Their 'challenges' probably had more to do with borderline personality disorders and compulsive lying than any mental disability.

Of course, YMMV.

DH buys a box of donuts every so often and offers coffee, even if most of them don't drink it. We're getting the last of our landscaping cement work done right now. I had an encounter with a guy on the crew yesterday that set me off. All better today--I'm looking at it from his point of view and realize my problem was with the owner, not him.

I have an idea. Let's STOP this thread here.

Enough said.

good idea; it might lead down the wrong path if we kept this thread going with horror stories.

We had a thread recently asking why GC's were often not all that great. I didn't read it.
And even a thread about KD's not all being sharp. That one I read.

More recently, some GW participants have posted about problems with individual trades people.

--

point made.

--

I'm willing to ask that we stop this thread too.

OK I fully support stopping this thread AFTER I tell you about my marble installer.

He came into the kitchen and announced that we were not to make any comments until he was done because he knew what he was doing and he would see any problems and fix them. After this pronouncement he became very friendly and chatty and proceeded to tell us about his pit bulls, and his new hobby, wall climbing. Then he told us that while he was experienced, he had been prevented from doing any installations for some time (til recently) because of a work related accident.

Then he proceeded with the installation. When it became obvious that the reveal around the fireclay farmhouse sink was not even -- it was smaller in back -- he started hitting the front of the sink to bring it forward. Mt DH and I were right there and pleaded with him to stop and told him that it was fireclay and connected to the garbage disposal and drain but he kept right on going. He just kept saying "It's iron, nothing's going to happen to it" even though we kept telling him, no, it's fireclay. Right after he left (with our check) I looked into the sink and there, under the grid, was one fine hairline crack.

Also while he was here we told him that the surface (which had been "honed" by the fabricator) looked uneven. He just flippantly said "Oh it will all even out in about twenty years.")

Right after he left I called the owner and she then sent her son to see the crack. Meanwhile she confronted the installer who denied everything and said the crack had been there when he started -- why he didn't point it out to us? He had no answer for that.

Next day I called her again and she was all upset -- why? the installer had just had a major work related accident -- he had gotten his hair caught in a grinder and was in the hospital with skull fractures. (He had nearly waist length hair in a pony tail). She intimated that this was our fault because he was so upset about what had happened on our job. Of course, we had said nothing to him -- we didn't even see the crack until he had left with our check. We were positively intimidated by him. I didn't bother to ask her what her employee was doing working with this machinery with his long hair loose and not in some kind of net.

Well the end of the story -- my husband rehoned the marble, and it looks good. We got a new sink (provided by Rohl, love'em, even though we told them the crack was caused by the installer.) and we got it installed safely. Unfortunately, the margins are not quite even because the marble was templated on the first sink and the Rohl sinks are somewhat variable. But we will live with it. We did recover enough money from the fabricator to make us feel better but everytime I really look at that sink I just curse them -- and bless my DH for saving this -- as he has saved so many of the other mishaps along the way.

As far as the installer -- I have no idea what's happened to him.

OK, now we can end the thread. Thanks for listening.

There are idiots in all walks of life and in all occupations (except perhaps brain surgery and rocket science...and even some of them are likely to be idiots in one way or another).

While this is a place, where consumers/homeowners should be able to vent about their particular troubles with GCs, KDs, plumbers, electricians and installers of all types, it isn't I think particularly productive to lump all of them together, and it is likely to be hurtful to the wonderful contractors, installers, KDs and others who volunteer their time and advice here to help consumers and homeowners out.

I suspect that many folks will want to tell their story about "their" idiot...I certainly have vented here about my GC. So, how 'bout this...all you KDs, tradespeople, contractors and others who are out there. How about you give us homeowners a taste of what it's like to be on the other side? Start a thread about the 50% of homeowners who have below average intelligence and/or were abusive, lied or tried to take advantage of you in some way? I actually think that might be instructive.

I got to hear those stories while they were working on my kitchen. LOL

What a great idea, melissastar! I'd love to hear some of those stories.

I think the below average are in most professions just as there are those above average. Some people are smart and mean or dishonorable so that does no good and some not so smart can be great at their jobs.
If we aren't safe to vent here about mess-ups, poor behavior, etc... then where can we? This is a kitchen forum and should be open to our experiences, both good and bad. I have learned from others' travails and hope some of my dilemmas served as cautionary tails for people to learn from. If I knew then what I know now, our reno would have gone smoother (despite reading this site daily for years). Despite all the venting that has already gone on, some situations are new or bizarre, so I want to keep hearing about them so to avoid joining the same club.
I hope I have saved people from making some of the same mistakes I have made by sharing here.
I have shared when things went well and when they went poorly. I don't blame all gcs, kds, plumbers, etc... for the bad ones. Hopefully, we are all smart enough to know there are good apples and bad.
Let's not stifle discussion. If you don't like a thread, move on to the next one.

I agree with Zelmar to stop this discussion.
Talking about the issues or problems you may have had with a specific KD, contractor, design person, etc is one thing.....but when you talk about someone's below average IQ, some of these people may be mentally challenged or have impairments.
I, for one, think our posts should be more about kitchen sinks, HW floors, appliances, BS, etc vs. talking negatively about a whole group of people.
Just my 2 cents.......

My intention in creating this thread was to let "nice" people know that many of those they will hire will be problem people. And that this is normal, so brace yourself. I think this site had a lot of gardeners initially. Willing to help each other and trade seeds too. Remember that the other half of the world is not like that.
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Here is an excerpt of another thread, illustrating the same concept.

Posted by jason1980 (My Page) on Tue, Jun 28, 11 at 19:11
1. As mentioned by others, inspectors not there for quality control just code enforcement. Really they are a joke. (....).
2. Of course loan officer is going to side with builder. She wants to get this mess off of her hands and off the books. (....).
3. If your husband is so construction savvy he should have generaled himself. Its not as easy as it looks. Babysitting ex convicts and high school drop outs for 6-9 months is worth every penny a general makes.
4. Just close on the house and sue the guy if he doesn't fix your punch list.
I dont miss home building one bit. What a pain.

+

Posted by lzerarc (My Page) on Tue, Jun 28, 11 at 20:42
wow, now there is a bit of sunshine on a cloudy day...

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The point I wanted to make was to give kitchen forum participants a simple reason to see that the people they will hire will NOT be on their wavelength. (not to discuss "below average" or to ask for horror stories).

A brother of mine lives on a long and winding country road where he and I know all the three owners of houses renovated or built in the last few years. In two houses, the houses got robbed (same MO in each case) about a month after the last worker left the house after the last visit taking care of the last few details. The same company worked on THOSE two houses. Hint hint.

There HAS to be a place in society for ex-convicts to go. Construction is one such field.

There HAS to be a place in society for dropouts and voluntary flunkouts to go.
Construction is one such field.

As we age over decades we adapt and grow. Everybody deserves a chance to get into a field and work cleanly. Not everyone uses their chances wisely. So be careful when you begin to bring workers in. Your understanding is worth very little against someone who has other notions of fairness and morality.

Learning things from the internet is not going to help you deal with someone when that someone has a different idea of what can be built. Your description is worth little. It's tough. Dealing with real people is a tough life.

Hth

I disagree this is an inappropriate topic. People have to understand the various factors likely to arise in order to get what they want. A large bulk of the population does cluster around that number in this postgrad-at-least world we're all trying to negotiate.

Another reality for TKOs is that a whole lot of people just don't read and their knowledge may not extend much beyond what they've gained from their own personal experience. (If it's 12 years with one cabinet manufacturer, for instance, it may be amazingly limited.)

That's how I ended up with a 10"-deep (13'-long!) built-in bookcase when I specified 13" on paper and in discussion. My rural Georgia carpenter smiled and nodded like the nice guy he is and then indulged me with an extra inch over the standard 9" depth he'd been trained to 40 years so so before and installing ever since. He is the good carpenter he thinks he is, BTW, so he built the other, floor-to-ceiling one 13" deep based on this new experience, I didn't insist the first be torn out (moving doorway, plumbing, etc., with it), and I now split my books between the two by size...

Keeping a constant, close eye out for misunderstandings is very important.

I had a folklore prof in college, and she told me that only 10% of people I would meet would be worth my time to try to talk to.
This has pretty much been borne out.
Especially at GW.
LOL
Casey

I remember my dad telling me when I was a kid that success in anything in life was 3% due to intelligence and 97% to perseverance. Home remodeling, IMHO, is no exception.

I don't think intelligence is the problem. I have an acquaintance who is, unfortunately, smart as the proverbial pile of rocks. She wants to know stuff, however, so she works at learning about it. You have to be severely disabled, of the kind that takes constant, custodial care, not to be able to learn. This woman has expertise. She's not quick, but she knows what she knows, knows it well, and knows how to apply it.

Most people in the construction trades, design, contracting, etc., are smarter than she. The problem ones just don't seem to have the desire to really know their stuff, to listen attentively to the homeowner, to take care in doing a workmanlike job, and to develop and demonstrate the expertise we expect of people in their positions.

That's sloth not lack of brains.

I think IQ is totally overrated. I would far rather have honest professionals with decent know-how than smart slimeballs. My son has been battling cancer for years and so we have had up close and personal contact with pediatric oncologists since late 2007, and most people would say that profession requires a fairly high IQ. Let me tell you, they have a ton of education and very, very little common sense. I see the same thing over and over - highly "smart", educated people and not a lick of sense or real know-how except in a very specialized field.

I wouldn't say that most problems arise because people have low IQs. Rather, many people think they know it all and thus do not bother to research, double-check, or consider new input. So don't be intimidated by anyone's expertise - it may just be a front for arrogance, not IQ.

In this forum, it seems people get lulled into thinking that real life will pretty much work out as the forum makes it seem do-able.

Other personal qualities are the ones we want to focus on.
Delete IQ. Agree it was a red herring.

I talk to myself, it's the only way to have an intelligent conversation! :)

I had a folklore prof in college, and she told me that only 10% of people I would meet would be worth my time to try to talk to.
This has pretty much been borne out.
Especially at GW.
LOL
Casey

I don't imagine I fall into Casey's 10% (que sera sera) but his point is a good one; it is a rather arrogant presumption to assume the IQ advantage resides with the clients and not the contractors. I've been around here long enough to be fairly certain that many folks doing the hiring are bringing their own shortcomings and deficiencies (some may be issues of IQ others not) to their projects. Probably true for all of us.

this is the subject of the second thread, that could run parallel to this one and mirror it.
it's about time someone pointed out that first time renovators are going to have a hard time,
because of their own shortcomings.
So, it's not always a KD, a GC or a trade.
It's the homeowner too.

I wanted to air out the subject. It can be unpleasant, it can be difficult, it definitely is a sensitive one. Figuring out what you want, and then what to say to get it "just so". It can take many iterations. It can require quadruple amounts of double checking.

sayde - I'd say that if anyone ever says anything like that to me (the 'no comment') I'd immediately reply 'sorry, in my house I'll speak up if and when I want to - especially when it involves you touching / working on my property.' If he/she doesn't like that, they can leave. immediately.

I agree that most problems are from people not doing the best they can. Often, it is laziness or lack of initiative. I am tired of being told by "professionals" that they don't know the code for where my house is. The fence guy, propane guy and my gc have all used this one lately. If you are doing work in an area, (our house is not in a remote village or small specialized area, btw) you should know what you need to know to do your job in that locale. I sell real estate and think it would be a pretty lousy excuse to say I don't know the rules and that the consumer needs to check. What I could see saying is I am not sure of the rules but will find out, and then do some checking. Anything they learn will help them when they deal with the next homeowner around here. If I knew it all myself, I would not need to hire them in the first place. I can learn a lot, but it should not be on me to be a master at every nuance in every field that works on our house. One should be able to trust the people who do this for a living, day in and day out. I can't imagine how people get through this without a GW type of resource. I have learned a ton here, but there is still a lot to know.....

I have just finished a kitchen and a bath renovation and I had two different general contractor's for the two jobs. I don't think IQ has anything to do with the quality of the job. I think a lot of the problems I encountered were by tradesmen who didn't care about the details. I also think my ignorance and lack of understanding contributed to the overall problems. I expected that people would know what they were doing and finish the job correctly. I thought the GC's would be on the job and make sure their subcontractors were doing things right. I thought I would be charged a fair price for a job well done. Naive of me. I learned a lot of lessons from these two projects and the main one is that I need to sit down with the GC's and let them know what I want and how much I will pay for it and what I want the final product to look like. Clear expectations, clear financials and I will vet the GC's much more thoroughly then I did this time.
It doesn't matter how smart or educated you are, what matters is the personal pride you take in a job well done. I will pay extra for a GC who has that.

I think I know that davidro1 was trying to say in the OP -- perhaps a better way to explain it is to say that, when we deal with any person (including a building/design professional) we should be aware that there tend to be "bell curves", not just with respect to intelligence, but with respect to integrity, candor, clarity of communication, degree of skill, and just plain common sense. Caveat kitchen emptor!!

jgs7691 nailed it. Since there are bell curves, for everything, expect to come across many who are in the lower half or at the lower end of the bell curve.

In this forum, it seems people get lulled into thinking that real life will pretty much work out as the forum makes it seem do-able.

This is not how it pans out, in many cases.

Well actually not every distribution is bell shaped.

But yeah. Don't expect everyone to be good.

I love my GC. On the first job I did with him (a concrete loft with 16" ceilings), he was polite, well spoken, thoughtful, considerate, and had this amazing sense of where he was in the world - he would walk through a door with a load of material and NEVER hit the walls; he would pick up a 12' ladder in my loft and swing it 'round without touching a light fixture, cabinet, or floor; he would ensure that the jobsite was clean at the end of every day and he would always make sure I was happy with what was going on.

Yes, I loved my GC so much... I married him!

And just like every profession out there, this industry has people who are good at what they do, and others who... should maybe consider a career in rock breaking. The hard part is finding the good ones. Best of luck to all of you!

Oh yeah jgs7691. My GC is all that and a bag of chips! I don't love mine like Bossa, we actually fight like bothers and sisters, but he WILL NOT tolerate anything less than perfection. It's not about the IQ. Book Smart vs. Street Smart? There is room for everyone on this earth. It takes respect for all talents and abilities on all sides. There is the top 50% and the bottom 50%. It doesn't matter if your book or street.

Since the last post 19 days ago how many cases have been reported in this forum of subcontractors not performing up to par?

Three, four, five or six. It depends if you include the cases where it was mostly a money problem, or a communication problem. This helps make my case. Many people have challenges. When you renovate, you will come across many of these people. They have serious challenges. When you participate in a discussion forum, you may feel you are learning something valid and real. It can be a HUGE challenge to both you the homeowner and to the tradesperson to run with this "new" knowledge you have. Then, to complicate matters, the tradespeople you deal with may be challenged by factors unrelated to you.

Hth