My concern: yes, she's fit in everything, but does it really fit?

She has 4 chairs at the island, but a couple of them are in front of cabinets...no leg room.

I'd sure like to see this plan drawn on graph paper so that we can see specific measurements. I am worried about the walking paths...No straight ones. Any entrance you come in requires maneuvering around something ahead...The desk is in front of the back door, and the table is in the way of getting anywhere, it seems. The plan looks busy, but without dimensions and/or grid lines I can't really tell if you'll have to walk sideways to get past things or if there's plenty of room. Things are not to scale...The fridge and the cooktop are different sizes even though they're both supposed to be 3 ft. Once it's drawn to scale, I'm afraid things might be more crowded than the drawing indicates.

I hope I don't sound completely negative and discouraging, but you and I share some of the same interests and goals for a kitchen, so I want this to be right for you, with no unpleasant surprises in the end. This is too important! :-)

It looks nice, but I also have many concerns...concerns that a to-scale layout (preferably on graph paper so we can "count boxes") may alleviate or confirm.

First, where's the Baking Center? One of those workspaces on either side of the cooktop? If so, they don't look wide enough to allow baking & cooking at the same time. The small one b/w the cooktop & ovens is really only wide enough for emergency landing space, not to work at. The other side of the cooktop, though, looks like it's wide enough for cooking workspace but I'm not so sure about a baking workspace.

One of the first things that jumped out at me was the Mudroom access...having to go round and about to it won't be fun, especially with your arms full (bags, books, etc.)

The island is a "barrier island"...i.e., it's b/w the only sink and refrigerator. You will have to go around the island each time you need something from the refrigerator while you're prepping.

Prepping will most likely occur next to the sink b/c of the proximity of the only water source in the kitchen...and you don't have enough room there for both prep & cleanup. It might occur on the island across from the sink, but I think the counter to the right of the sink will be the "coveted" space.

I'm glad to see the cooktop is protected from casual traffic and is against the wall...good location. The most protected areas in your kitchen are where the cooktop & sink are.

Speaking from experience, be sure the corner pantry is specified in great detail to be sure it will fit in the space you have allocated. The "diagonal wall" will have to be at around 40" wide to accommodate a 24" door + 2 interior walls + 3" or so for trim on each side. Ours is 41-1/2" and it was the smallest that would work. Our carpenter worked a long time getting it to fit in the reduced space we had due to our KD's measuring errors. (The interior measurements are 41" along the left wall & 51" along the adjacent wall. It's really a tad small, so I would not go any smaller. I think 60" x 60" is ideal, but would not want to go any smaller than what I have.)

Coffee area...I think you'll find the current location rather small to hold both a coffeemaker & dirty dishes (& prep!) in the Cleanup Zone. I'd like to see it elsewhere...maybe where the desk is...move the Washer & Dryer to the Kitchen wall instead of the MBA wall so the plumbing can be shared by the Washer and either a small prep sink or a plumbed coffeemaker. In the "Desk" location it's out of the way of the Cleanup Zone, it's close to where people will use it (table & island) and someone coming in for a cup of coffee won't get in the way of someone else trying to work at the sink or island.

Speaking of a desk...are you sure you want one? Most people have discovered they're "clutter magnets" and are taking them out when they remodel. A Message Center would work, but it ideally should be closer to the Mudroom. A Message Center usually has things like the land-line phone, cell phone/iPod/camera chargers, calendar, message board, notepad, pens/pencils, mail sorter of some kind, and keys.

Seating space...if you're going to have a seat + working counter or appliance on the same aisle, that aisle really needs to be 60" or so wide. When someone is sitting at the island, they will take up approx 18" to 24" in the aisle (depending on their size)...more if you skimp on seating overhang (i.e., if Since you have a table seat directly behind an island seat, you really need closer to 72" b/w them if at all possible...b/c two people might be sitting across from each other (one at the table, one at the island)...so that leaves 24"-36" for someone to scoot by. It's also a main thoroughfare...this time b/w the kitchen & rest of the house (laundry room, bedroom, patio door).

Is that a cabinet in front of the seat seat on the "bottom"? It says "trays"...you will not be able to have a seat there, so your island really only seats 3 right now. I'm assuming, though, that it's all overhang next to the trash pullout. If not, if it also is taking up overhang space, then you're down to two seats. You need 24" of linear space for each seat as well as clear knee space under the overhang that's 24"Wx15"D that's not shared with another seat (i.e., no overlap of leg/knee space). Then, 24"W x 18"D to 24"D in front of the overhang when someone is sitting there. (Plus aisle space, of course.)

I also wonder if the table will really fit in the space it's shown...but detailed measurements will tell us that.

MW location...do you need to add water when you reheat things? If so, will the refrigerator have a water dispenser? If not, you may want to think about how you will add water to your dish for reheating (at the cleanup sink, most likely...and that's across the room and on the other side of the island).

Sorry this is long and mostly negative-seeming. But if we can see actual measurements, many of my concerns may go away!

As to straight lines vs curves, I think I like the straight lines in your kitchen better than curves, so don't think of it as a negative...it's a positive!

Here's a thought...why not put a run of shallow pantry shelves/cabinets where the desk is now and then you'll free up the other side of the kitchen and provide ample space for cleanup, prep, cooking, and a small baking center? You might then be able to move the Sink & DW toward the corner some, freeing up space for a small coffee center that will be on the periphery so people getting coffee won't be underfoot, but close enough to the sink for water.

You have really interesting space and I so totally agree with listing coffee area as important! Rhome and beuhl have already said most everything there is to say.

If it hasn't been scary enough already, I would like to request a sketch of the first floor - doesn't need to be too detailed. I'd like to see how the kitchen fits into the house.

If possible, please outline the addition? Cool!

I'm working on getting this to scale, (A big THANK YOU to Rhome410 for the offer of help!). I'll post a drawing of the whole first floor when I can, too. We are just entering the design phase, so there's plenty of room for shifting and changing. I want to thank everyone who's responded so far, the constructive criticism is absolutely appreciated--don't worry about making me feel bad, I NEED to hear it if there's a concern about something not working. I'll feel worse if, after construction, I'm fraught with "Shouldas" (I shoulda done this, shoulda done that....)

The desk is NOT an absolute--it's a rolltop that I have and it can easily go somewhere else. I don't need any clutter magnets, thank you! I was planning on a message center somewhere, so maybe this should be it. Good food for thought!

I tend to like straight lines as opposed to curves myself; so it was validating to hear that. :-)

Thanks again, everyone--I'll be back with better drawings soon.

Cheryl

Is the mudroom new or existing? Is there outside access directly into the mudroom? I would prefer to have the laundry room on the mudroom side of the kitchen (or make the mudroom bigger to have a combo mudroom/laundry.) If you garden, or if you have kids or a dog, it's nice to be able to take off muddy outerwear or wipe off muddy paws and throw everything right into the laundry. Then your laundry counter and sink do double duty for setting down bags or washing hands when you come inside.

In addition to the other great points from others, the current drawing makes it look like the basement door when open would block the powder room door. That would be trouble if someone comes up from the basement just when someone else is stepping out of the powder room.

Ditto. Something to scale would help a lot.

(A toilet big as a fridge kinda scares me...)

I hope Cj47 doesn't mind me posting the plan she sent that's to scale so you all can see it.

It doesn't seem to have dish storage or much storage but the pantry...and that really hogs space that could be useful around the cooktop. And wow, I'd hate to have to wash an island that's 6 ft x 7 ft! :-)

******************************

So I started playing:
I still don't know anything about the rest of the layout, but here are a couple of tries, one with decreasing the sliding door to a single swing door, and one bumps the former fridge wall out even with the other wall on the left. Neither of which may be OK, so it's premature, but anyway...

This is the one with the smaller door and the walls, as are. The fridge could go where the oven is and the fridge wall could become a baking area if she doesn't mind the oven on the opposite side of the island from the cooktop:

THe one with the wall moved. Much better, but maybe that wall can't move. What kitchen couldn't use 'just 2 more feet?' This one could also work without moving the wall IF the mud room door could shift north a couple of feet.:

I think in your first drawing, the existing house was to the left and the backyard to the right, and in the ones posted above the existing house is at bottom and the backyard is at top.

If this is the case, I wouldn't put the pantry on the exterior corner (as in your mockup) because that's where alot of your natural light would come from and the pantry would block it.

So some context as to the rest of the house and the yard would be great.

When you come in from the garage, where do you enter the house? Assuming it's the mudroom, I like Rhome's second drawing because there's a landing space for bags of groceries etc. when you enter the kitchen.

Oooo. Nice work Rhome.

Can you clarify:
This one could also work without moving the wall IF the mud room door could shift north a couple of feet.

Clarifying...To make that plan, I moved the wall that the fridge is on 2 ft south. If that's not possible, the plan could be similar if instead of moving the wall, the doorway to the mudroom could move north. The stove wall run would be 2 ft shorter, of course, but I think there's room for that.

Here's the similar plan with the wall in its original place, but with the doorway moved:

I put pantries on either side of the fridge, so that's not great for a grocery landing...which can be changed for the OP's preference, of course. I was thinking about what we do, which is take the groceries to the island, and sort and distribute from there.

Thanks, I thought you meant it would shorten the range run and the island, but I wasn't sure.

(I sort groceries on the island also.)

Wow! Thanks, Rhome for posting that layout I sent, and your ideas! Very nice work indeed. I didn't realize people were posting yet, so thanks for the heads up! I will get back with a whole house layout (original and as planned to expand) as soon as I can. I'd like it to be legible so I'm going to hold off till I can make the software I bought do the job.

Answers to questions:

Is the mudroom new or existing? Is there outside access directly into the mudroom?

The mudroom is new, and its going to be built out into existing garage space. We started out with a mudroom/laundry room combo, but the KD really advocates for the laundry room getting itÂs "own" space, so she made it a separate space. Going into the garage saved us a lot of $ in digging costs, so weÂre kind of pleased with that. IÂm now reconsidering whether an upstairs laundry is actually all that necessary, or whether I could move it upstairs later, after retirement when itÂs possible that I wonÂt be able to do stairs so easily. Any thoughts? Is it a mistake to give up the upstairs laundry?

The kitchen ceiling will be vaulted, with trapezoid windows on the outward facing wall to let in more light.

the current drawing makes it look like the basement door when open would block the powder room door.

Yes. And even more silly--the current back door is right there tooÂso if that back door is open, and the basement door is openÂitÂs a mess, with the powder room behind it all. The good news is that the back door is going away, because it's located on the back of the house, which is moving 10 feet out. The existing powder room is staying as is, and the basement location also. We've decided that other things are more pressing, so this idiosyncracy stays.

I'm terribly sorry to report that the wall with the mudroom entrance on it can't be moved out--that's the current garage. Funny, the KD said the same thing, she wants two more feet. The wall where the KD put the 'fridge can't be moved out either, because that's the living room and we can't spare the space. I like the idea of putting in the smaller door on the back to give us more wall space. Does anyone think that it might look silly with a single door and the patio out back?

Many thanks to all who responded. I promise to get back with a real layout as soon as I can get it together!

Cj

Disclaimer: I'm working through a migraine so I may miss the obvious. Bear with me.

First off - and I'm trying to say this gently but I know I'm failing, sorry - I'm not keen on the plan your KD drew up. I understand she's trying to fit everything in but I think sitting at your table will feel like you're in Grand Central Station. There's an awful lot of traffic that will need to get through that space. And that large, deep island will not be fun when you need to clean the counter - unless you've got a really long reach (think someone already mentioned that).

I like any of the 3 plans that rhome drew up for you. I think they offer a big improvement for traffic flow and kitchen function.

I understand not giving up 2 ft of your LR. Why is it the mudroom door can't move? Is that where the garage ends so moving it puts it outside the garage? Or are the furnace and water heater or other boring but necessary things in the way?

So here's another thought.

You started out wanting a mudroom/laundry room combo but your KD advocates a separate laundry room. Why? Personally if the mudroom is large enough, why not double up and turn the laundry room on your plan into a pantry? That sounds like it's a bigger priority for you. (are you going to have 2 laundry rooms, one up, one down? that's not clear to me.)

If you turn the planned laundry room into a pantry, you can cheat that wall back 2 feet or so to make room for the fridge wall rhome drew in her first plan while keeping your large patio door. And you can move the door into it from the wall facing the basement stairs to facing into the kitchen. That will help with the train wreck/traffic jam there (had something similar in a childhood home, know how awkward that is). Maybe steal a bit more space from the pantry so you can recess the fridge into the wall (are you going with full depth?).

If you can't move LR wall, mudroom door or combine mudroom and laundry room, then I think the best plan is the first one rhome did with the smaller patio door. I completely understand about wanting it all (boy do I ever) but compromise is a fact of kitchen life. We all have to do it (and yes, sometimes we do it kicking and screaming ;-). Think of your priorities (not your KD's) and keep them at the top of your list as you work through plans. That should help you come up with a great kitchen perfect for you and not a mediocre kitchen that does it all but at a cost to the big picture.

All this is said because of my assumption (and you know what they say about assumptions) that you think the plan can be improved. Otherwise, why post it here?

Okay, that's it. I can't think any more. Hmmm, that implies I was thinking at all.

My biggest question is: what's your budget for the project. You're proposing some extensive changes, and I hope your KD is communicating with you that this project is well over 100K, even in a lower cost area of the country and in a down economy. Are you prepared for that type of expenditure? Or would that much money added on to what you can sell your home for equal a much nicer home to be bought than you can create from renovating the existing one?

The original design isn't very functional. For even a reasonably casual cook, I consider 3' of CONTINUOUS counter prep space a dead minimum. 5' is ideal--that's the reasonable reach of most people with a small amount of movement. For a very casual cook, one 3' stretch and one 2' stretch, plus landing spaces beside the stove, is a minimum. For a serious cook, one 5' and one 3', PLUS LANDINGS, would be minimum, with another 2' cleanup space for good measure.

The architect is coming on Monday with "real" drawings and firmer measurements, and I'll post back after that so that I can speak with a lot more confidence about what can and can't be done.

In the meantime, I'll respond as best I can at the moment:
Live_Wire_Oak, thanks your concern, and yep, we realize that this is a huge project and we have budgeted for it. We thought long and hard, and looked at many a house in our town; anything we buy would need a new kitchen anyway, as well as other 'fixing up'. Our budget could buy us a bigger house, but not necessarily one that is nicer than the one we're going to have after the project. Once the kids move out, this will be the perfect size again, and really nice, too. So here we stay for the next 15 years.

Lisa A, thank you for taking the time to respond even though you have a migraine! How kind of you, and I do hope you are feeling better. I hear you on the Grand Central Station thing--that was a very big worry that I had, and still do. Funny, the laundry was originally a pantry, and the mudroom held the laundry--but the KD advocated hard for the laundry to go there and so I made the switch. I can still make changes, and thinking that maybe my original mudroom/laundry idea wasn't so bad after all! Then could move the wall back and have more space next to the doors, as Rhome 410 suggested. You have provided some excellent food for thought, and I will keep it all in mind as I sit down with the KD after we get the drawings back from the architect.

Reyesuela, you are right about the work space as well--that was also a concern that I had with the original plan. I've since purchased some design software to help me visualize the space better, and have already added a bunch of space for baking and prep. With all of the added space and cabinetry, I may be able to do a smaller pantry as well. That would be good.

I'd thought that maybe I'd posted prematurely, since I didn't have the scale and space firmly defined yet--however, you all have given me so many ideas and things to think about during the rest of the design phase that I'm not sorry I posted that original plan after all!! I'll be back with more information and more ideas after I get the drawings from the architect and sit down again with the KD.

Thanks again to everyone,
Cj