Go to eopinons and read about front loading junk! The problems you listed are REAL, not imagined.

The biggest problem is that front loaders are slower than molasses in January. Go ahead and listen to single male laundry nerds on this forum about how great they are. Then try and get laundry done for three children in a reasonable amount of time.

The ONLY reason I can think of to buy a front loader is if you are severely constrained on water usage due to well or septic tank concerns.

Otherwise, if you consider your time valuable stay far away from them and just get a standard Speed Queen or Kenmore/Whirlpool toploader.

Don't say you weren't warned!

I can't imagine thoroughly researching FLs and then buying a TL for any reason other than needing the cheapest w/d pair available, which is usually the lowest cost TL.

FL's are easier to use and do a much better job of cleaning, with less energy, detergent, and garment wear. Period.

Yes, they do take longer to wash, though many people find that the combined wash and dry times are about equal since less time is spent drying, more washing and rinsing. (I don't know that from personal experience since I am a line dryer.)

And yes, it's good to leave the door slightly ajar (just unlatched will be fine). The reason for this is due to the physical differences of the two types of machines. TLs' doors don't have to make a water- and air-tight seal since gravity alone keeps the water contained, . TL lids are basically splash guards during operation but otherwise (even when "closed") air can circulate under the lid and around the drum during between-wash periods. Front loaders, OTOH, must be extremely water tight (and consequently airtight) in order to contain the wash water completely. For this reason their doors benefit from being left slightly open between washes to make sure enough air circulates to dry out the innards completely. This will help avoid getting a stinky problem.

I don't find I need to do anything out of the ordinary to run cleaning cycles. I would guess I've that done that perhaps a half dozen times in fifteen years of use, and usually when I have returned to a FL after having been away for a long period. Once I inadvertently left wash water sealed in a machine for more than two years with no untoward effect. I do use at least one quite hot (160F+) wash cycle per machine every week. If I washed in cold water exclusively, I would expect to need cleaning cycles more frequently.

You may need to change your laundry products if you switch to FLs as not all detergents work well in Fls. And you may find you have less of a detergent product smell remaining in your stuff because it will have been rinsed more effectively. This means your stuff will actually be cleaner coming from a FL; that's usually something that isn't hard to adjust to since for most people the whole point of washing is to get things clean. Most added scents in detergents are an attempt to make you believe the stuff is getting cleaner. I find I do not have to buy any special type of detergent product, but I did have to give up what I had been using before (Liquid ERA) in favor of an ordinary national brand powder.

Still if you find you prefer TLs, out of habit or for other reasons, there are good machines available to you. But, please don't misjudge front loaders from reading about the travails of a few users who don't quite understand how to work with their machines. I have been using FL's for a very long time, and would never revert to a TL. You might ask around among your acquaintances; there are oodles of people with FLs these days and you might get invited to come and play with their machines.

Molly~

I owned a FLer briefly before switching to a Whirlpool Cabrio He TLer. The reason I switched machines was because of vibrations. You may or may not have a problem with this depending on where your washer will go. I researched the machines, had a friend who is a builder check my floor to make sure it would work well, and still had a vibration problem. The floor is too "flexible". This is right next to the main support (steel I-beam) of the house so there should not have been a problem.

I traded the FLer for a TLer since I could not stand the vibrations. I have to say that I really love my Cabrio. It works well and is really easy to use. Regardless of what many people say, I think it does a better job rinsing than the front loader I had. I was using less than 1 TBSP of detergent and no fabric softener and I was still getting rashes with the front loader (I have allergies and atopic dermatitis which are aggravated by detergent residue). Since washing everything in the Cabrio, I have not had a rash, itching or even the tight feeling I sometimes get on my skin if I touch something I am sensitive to. I do use more detergent in the Cabrio, about 1 to 1 1/2 Tbsp plus fabric softener once I realized that the detergent was rinsing out.

The Cabrio is not a traditional TLer, it has a wash plate instead of a agitator and costs as much as some cheap front loaders. It does use less water than a traditional TLer, is energy star rated, and holds more than the FLer I tried. I can fit twice as much in this machine as my old TLer (a Kenmore super capacity plus TLer), great for doing towels and bedding without wasting the whole day. It has a top spin speed of 1,000 rpm so cloths take less time to dry, another bonus when doing towels or bedding.

Good luck. And remember that no matter how much research you do or how much advice people give you, you have to do what is right for you in your situation. Make sure that the store where you make your purchase will happily exchange your machine if you have a problem with it or are not happy with it. And if you do decide to get a new HE machine, FLer or TLer, you might want to look into a extended warranty. And about leaving the door ajar on a FLer, I was surprised to see anyone say this was not needed, if you don't let the machine dry between uses it will start to smell. My neighbor has this problem with hers.

No me. I never did like the gradient cleaning issues of the typical TL (bottom clothes gets beat to death and the top clothes hardly move). Same issue for rinse. And with the typical short wash cycle, you have to spot clean any really dirty spots.

So before you give up on a FL consider for the vibration you can always turn down the spin speed (most TL are only 600RPM).

On the wash cycle, use short for lightly soiled loads, if you like. The wash issues are time/temp/agitation. Most FLs balance these well like Bosch/Miele. Most TLs focus on speed with the compensation in agitation cutting short time/temp.

So you can make a FL clean as bad and as fast as TL. :-) But you will still save water. And have the option for better rinse and better cleaning when you need it or have time.

One point not mentioned is that the larger capacity FLs will hold DOUBLE what your Maytag will do in one load. So that about evens the 'molasses' time factor, or even cuts it considering the reduced dry time!

Bring a couple of baskets of laundry to an appliance store, and a very large clean plastic trash bag. Put the plastic bag into a FL washer drum (to protect your clothes from oils) and see how much you can fit it. There should be a 'fist' of space at the top - don't overpack! That will tell you how much you can fit it and I bet you will be pleasantly surprised at how much these FLs can do.

Also, many FLs have delay timers. You can set the machine to complete a cycle when you wake up so it works at night and you can get the clothes right into the dryer at your convenience in the morning, etc.

Actually, the situation isn't as black & white as this, because there is a lot more variation in Top Loader washer types than there is with front loaders.

Specifically, there are the traditional deep fill top loaders that have issues with evenly washing large loads, have slow spin speeds, and use huge amounts of water, and then there are the new generation HE top loaders that are much more like front loaders. These new generation washers have huge useable capacity, front loader like spin speeds, and significantly reduced water consumption.

The real comparision is between front loaders and these new generation top loader washers. This is how the comparision stacks up:

Front loaders

Minimum water consumption
Poorer rinsing of particulates and pet hair
Vibration
Best wash performance
Long cycle time
Very good noise overall, but quieter in wash than during spin
Susceptible to mold because of sealed tub
High Price

HE top loaders

Uses more water than FL, but less than deep fill TL
Better rinsing of particualtes & pet hair
Minimum vibration problems
Very good wash performance, but probably not as good as FL's
Shorter cycle time
Very good noise overall, but louder than FL's in wash, and quieter in spin than FL's
Less susceptible to mold because of open tub
High price, but usually several hundred dollars less than FL's

Washer man did a great job comparing the FLers and HE TLers. I forgot to mention the lint issue. We have a rabbit, and I am partial to very soft fuzzy sweaters. In my old TLer, I had to put the sweaters in sweater bags and seperate dark, medium, and light colors to cut down on lint. In the FLer, I had to pick lint off of my sweaters even after seperating and washing in bags. I also had to wipe lint out of the inside of the machine. With the Cabrio, I throw all the fuzzy sweater together except the white ones, and they come out fluffy and lint free. I don't even put them in sweater bags! I also don't have to wipe down the inside of the machine after cleaning my rabbits bedding - though I do run a cycle to clean the machine afterwards. Not to do that would seem unsanitary to me.

Okay - thanks for that washer_man

Now my slant on the TL/FL issue

The only thing that high efficiency top loaders have in common with front loaders is that water consumption has been tweaked to the barest minimum. Also, whatever differences there are in cleaning performance and fabric wear between most FL's vs TL's, they can really only be gleaned in a laboratory; meaning that the differences are miniscule and such comparisons largely useless to most consumers in real life. Even if FL wash performance is slightly better on microscopic level, what about rinse performance?

High efficiency top loaders do not use more water than front loaders with the same water consumption rating. If they did, why waste time rating them the same?

High efficiency top loaders allow consumers the choice of overriding the HE functions and still do a regular deep tub fill and wash.

There are heaps of differences between the two wash systems. Ergonomics, cycle options, load flexibility are just a couple of points in which both types of washers vary greatly.

I've recently replaced my 20 year old Speed Queen top loader with another one. It suits me and my needs very well. Water efficiency was of least importance to me. Running a large household, doing at least one full load daily, in a regular deep fill top loader, only requires approx. 10% of all water that we use per billing cycle. Even if I had chosen a large capacity front loader, the net water saving would only be 3 or 4 percent overall, hardly worth splitting hairs over.

Anyways, I've got an interesting link, if anyone cares for it.

Here is a link that might be useful: Laundry Products Research

I used a mid to high range Maytag TL for 22 years before replacing it with a Bosch FL 10 months ago. I have found that the additional time (1 1/4 hours) for my FL has not really changed my washing habits. I do 8-10 loads a week for 4 people and the ability to set my wash to be done when I get up in the morning, has kept me on pace with my wash. I have a load done on Sat. morning before I would have even gone down to put one in! Since it dries slightly faster on the line, I really haven't had an issue. It is easy to have a load ready during the week also, so I do a load at a time instead of all on Saturday. I am now able to use Tide or some other smelly detergent and it doesn't bother anyone, because you cannot smell it when the wash is done. I have run 2 cleaning cycles in 10 months, but do use the Temp Boost option on towels and underwear each week. I do leave my door ajar and have had no smell problems. My FL has gotten out some old stains without effort and I am real happy with the way it cleans. I don't think it holds twice as much as my old one, but I probably crammed the old one too full! My clothes do not get wrinkled unless I stuff the FL real full and they are slightly drier when they come out. I have two dogs and the pet hair has not been as much an issue as I thought it might be. I've had no problems from day one, but each person is different. I truly like my FL machine.

I was soooo excited when my 10 year old TL died. I had wanted a FL for a long time but hubby said old one still worked so we had to wait. We went and ordered the HE4 from Sears but it was a fairly long wait for delivery. Anyway, since I now had no washer at all I ended up using my girlfriend's HE3 instead of going to a laundromat. After a week and several loads of clothes I canceled the HE4 and went and bought the GE Harmony TL set. Some of the problems I was not happy with were wrinkling (even after using fabric softener in the washer and dryer!), the clothes just didn't feel clean, and I accidentally left a pen in my pants pocket. Not only did I put a hole in the pants, but a hoodie and another pair of pants also. For that kind of money (about $2600.00) I expected a lot more from the machine. So, I ended up with the Harmony and I couldn't be happier. IMHO it works better and costs a heck of a lot less.

Adding a little detail to washer_man's FLer advantage - "Best wash performance"...

It's tough to generalize across an entire product class, but some FLers also give an excellent ability to "tune" the wash cycle to a particular need. For example some FLer models are designed (or can easily be tricked) to do a profile wash. Also several models monitor wash temperature and maintain that temperature through the wash cycle. Their internal heaters can also be used to an advantage by boosting wash temperatures at the high end (~155F to near boiling depending on model). Even high-end TLers mostly depend on ATC with a couple of models having internal heaters for much more limited use.

With regard to water use...
This sensitivity will be location/water rate dependent. At current rates most won't see a big enough difference to justify a FLer on water use alone. Certainly the aggregate benefit across a community could be substantial. Several years ago our town banned in-ground irrigation systems hooked up to town water (a deep well in a non-competing aquifer is now required). You also see more waterless urinals in commercial settings.

With regard to rinsing...

We don't deal with pet hair, so can't comment on that but not sure what washer_man meant by TLers being better with "particulates". For most stuff the wash cycle should clean the clothing and those particulates are broken down and in suspension. Even things that don't break down like sand from a beach towel haven't been a problem in our FLers. Most FLers allow you to set an extra rinse cycle for those more problematic situations. Maybe this point is similar to the difference between US and European dishwashers. US ones have a grinder and European ones don't but they both get the job done.

Turbodrum,

I have read the website that you cited on your post. It sounds very scientific, there are, however, a few mistakes in the cost calculations. It is correct that the water efficiency doesn't save a whole lot on the water bill. That article doesn't take into account that not all cycles are done in cold water. If you have to heat up twice as much water you are using twice as much energy (either electricity or gas). Most energy star rated TLs use twice as much water as good FLs. It is also not true that the cycle time alone accounts for the electricity usage of the washer. FLs are more at least as energy efficient as TLs even though the cycles are normally longer. If your laundry isn't too dirty, you can always save even more energy and use a short cycle on a FL.
As far as the costs for the water consumption goes...you can't just look at the cost for fresh water. It does cost a lot of money and a lot of chemicals are added to the waste water in order to clean it. I think responsible people should not just consider their utility bills but also the effect on the environment and buy the best-performing washers among the most energy efficient washers they can afford.
People seem to be upset that a lot of FLs are imported and don't want to buy them for that reason. Well, how about convincing more local manufacturers to work on designing some good quality washers.
It seems to be tough for some people to accept that there may be better ways of doing thing than the way they used to do it for decades. Just look at how much Americans still refuse to switch the metric system...but that's another issue I guess.
I grew up with FLs and I like them a lot better than TLs. Initially I was happy that the TLs are quicker, but that faded when I saw the results...
I think the Europeans know exactly why they hardly use any TLs...:-)

Looser,

The report cuts through a lot of misconceptions and hype, by raising important points that are too often ignored in the discussions that people are having on this topic.

Here in Australia buying imported washers over domestically produced ones is a big issue (to me at least). In about 16 months, Electrolux, our only whitegoods manufacturer, will stop producing washers, dryers and dishwashers in this country. That means that over 500 people will lose their jobs here, which will go to China and other major users of unrenewable resources and huge poluters of the environment. Our government pays tax-funded rebates to make this happen.

Australian-made goods are manufactured under very stringent environmental regulations. Sourcing products from Eastern Europe and Asia gets around these every time. You will find that even TOL front loaders from Germany are now only assembled there. All the components come from countries with less stringent standards.

Whatever pressures top loaders exert on the environment, the differences between them and front loaders can only be expressed in single digit percentiles. Getting consumers to switch to front loaders is about politics and public perceptions rather than real and meaningful interventions.

I understand about the cumulative efffects of our activities on the environment. Especially when it comes to detergents and other laundry additives. Let me assure you that Europeans do not use less than Americans. European detergents move off the shelves as quickly as they do in the states. They are just low suds formulated. Detergent manufacturers want product turn-over regardless of what machines consumers use. They are packed just as brightly and in the same quantities as most detergents avaiable in the US. Much depends on the end-user and whether or not they buy a good quality concentrate or a cheap generic product and how thy dose it. Currently, the only time consumers physically save on detergent is when they use those that are formulated for top loaders in their front loaders.

In regards to energy consumption, if we are moving towards renewable energy such as wind and solar power, it isn't all that important. Here in Australia most consumers wash in cold water anyway. A lot of people have solar water heaters and Australia has one of the largest supplies of natural gas in the world, most of which we sell to the Chinese and California. Instead of paying rebates on imported appliances, our government should pay bigger rebates for rainwater tanks and solar panels.

The stats for water consumption in Australia place domestic use of fresh water at 16% nationally. 84% of this is used by agriculture and industry and lost through aged infrastructure and bad management practices. Looking at the bigger picture takes washing machines out of the picture completely.

Durability was another point raised in the article. The life span of most washers is now estimated at 6 to 10 years. The need to more frequently dispose and replace them creates a whole range of costs, which actually negate any net energy and utility savings to consumers in real terms.

As I've already pointed out, many new top loaders are rated the same as front loaders for utility use. This cancels out any moral perspectives on supposedly environmentally superior choices.

BTW, I grew up with horizontal axis washers in Europe, but have come to like top loaders to the point where I prefer them.

The reasons why Europeans don't buy top loaders are economic, historical and have probably very little to do with why you think this is so. When I lived there the standard capacity for horizontal axis washers was 4.5 kg dry weight. They used as much water (between 140 to 160 liters), as most standard deep fill top loaders with 6 to 8 kilo capacity. Most Europeans have never seen a vertical axis top loader, let alone be able to give you an informed opinion on this topic.

Technologically front and top loaders are now evolving at the same rate. The primary purpose of a washing machine is to effectively wash and rinse clothes, for which it needs a certain amount of energy and water to do it effectively depending on its mechanical action. It is impossible to forever keep tweaking water use, without impacting performance - even if this does not become immediately apparent. In my opinion the water-inefficient front loaders of my youth gave a superior wash and rinse to current front loaders. To me it seems that function and design are getting away from that primary purpose and too much emphasis is being placed on efficiency.

Just my 20 cents worth.

Turbodrum,

you are right that there are (a few) TLs that are as energy efficient as good FLs. I agree with you that those should also qualify for incentives. FLs are not per se better than TLs. The good TLs are as expensive as good FLs, so that decision should be left to personal preference.
I grew up in Germany and I do remember that initially we had an old TL. My parents were not rich at all and we got used machines from friends. The biggest problem of the TL was the lack of high spin speeds. In fact, I don't think they did spin much at all. My mom used an additional manual (you had to crank it by hand) spinner. We were really happy when we finally got a FL that was able to spin the clothes much drier. Yes, it did use a lot of water. In the beginning they were not made to be much more efficient than TLs. Until about 5 years ago my mom still didn't have a dryer. Since the weather is not that great in Germany, most of the laundry was dried in the basement. If the clothes were still dripping wet, they didn't smell to good by the time they were dry. So I think the spinning speed was the biggest advantage.
You are probably right by stating that the wash performance suffered a little bit by reducing the amount of water as much as they did. I still think that they found a reasonable solution and the rinsing abilities of the HE washers are acceptable. Doing just one rinse with a bunch of water (like the cheap TLs do) is definitely less efficient in getting the detergent out of the clothes.
As far as durability goes, all modern appliances don't last as long as they used to, that includes TLs.
I know about the problems of outsourcing, but that applies to all kinds of products. There are few manufacturers who really care about the environment, all they care about is the profit. Maybe the government should pay incentives to local manufacturers for implementing environmental friendly processes instead of giving the incentives to the consumers. That all goes too much into politics though.
I think Australia is really doing a lot to try to protect the environmant as much as possible. You should be proud of that. Here in the USA, lots of states still don't do much recycling and people are not too concerned about what they do to the environment. They still want to drive the 5 litre pick-up trucks or SUVs and expect the White House to lower the gas prices... We could go on and on about this. I think it is good that the energy efficiency ratings finally get some attention here. If you prefer a HE TL that has good ratings, you get my support on that!

I can tell you that after owning a front loader for one year I returned it to Sears in exchange for a top loader. I had the HE3T which got mold in the belt. The clothes also came out much more wrinkled and I saw no advantages to the washing machine except for its using less water. I exchanged it for the Kenmore Elite top loader which I am very happy with.

Well, there shouldn't be any mold in a FL if you leave the door unlocked and occasionally clean out the rubber seal of the door.
I am sorry to hear that you didn't like the FL. I have no experience with that particular model, but I do like FLs and got good results with them. The higher spin speed does create a few more wrinkles, but the dryer got most of them out. I hardly ever iron anything...I just take the clothes out of the dryer when they are still warm and hang them up or fold them. There are very few items that need ironing.

Hi Turbo,

As usual your comments try to cut through a lot of misconceptions and try to focus on "real" life experience.

Congratulations on your new machines.

I'm sure that you'll get many years of productive use from them.

Last year, I got new Maytag LAV's for my mother's condo. At times I wash some very dirty laundry over there and they function beautifully.

Do you have any idea which type of washer (FL or TL or some other configuration) that most Japanese consumers use?

The Japanese have a strong bias towards top loaders, as do Australians, New Zealanders, Chinese, and Indians. In fact, globally, top loaders are preferred in North & South America, Asia, Australia & New Zealand, & India. Front Loaders are preffered in Europe.

North & South Americans, Australians, New Zealanders, and Indians have traditionally preffered agitator washers, while impellers have allways been preferred in Asia.

I was curious about washer man's statement that top loaders are preferred in India. In my limited observation, Indians have switched mostly from hand-washing directly to front loaders. There are some semi-automatic top loaders on the market which are less expensive and may therefore have greater volume in sales.

This has been a great thread! Lots of information and points to ponder. It's frustrating seeing the pendulum swing from "FL is JUNK!!!!!!" to "TL is JUNK!!!!!!" nonsense that's been all too often.

My 28 yo GE top loader is still working fine, albeit I think a bit weak on spinning these days. But I know it probably will need replacement before too long. So I'm trying to narrow down my choices. I wanted a Danby, but they're history. Now I'm down to three in the same price range but slightly different. The newer GE 26 cycle FL, The Frigidaire 7000 and the Oasis/Cabrio 3.8 cf. Another possibility would be the Speed Queen, but I'm not sure. All are around $800 anyway. All about the same capacity. I have a 7.4 cf dryer so size isn't an issue. I don't need the cavern capacity washer, except I would kind of like to have the glass lid! Don't recall offhand but I think the Frig & GE both have glass doors. But how soon would the novelty wear off? Who knows.

For me water consumption is not a big deal. I'm single and don't use that much. I agree about conserving resources, but I'm tired of seeing someone scream about using a FL to "save water for the rest of the world" and then they turn around and are washing their cars 2x/week!

Detergent costs too are nominal. I would have to spend much more for HE detergents on a FL than I use on my TL and so in the end, even considering the alleged (because I don't use a lot in my TL) my calculations show I'll spend more on detergent in a FL. Perhaps in the future, there will be good cheap HEs, but for now there's not with the possible exception of Sears. Not a big deal either way, but addresses another argument.

The biggest issue/consideration for me is accessibility. I cannot bent, squat and crouch down like I used to. I have long arms so the TL is not a problem to reach. A FL may require a chair to access. However I'm thinking of putting it onto some concrete blocks as I did with my dryer to make access better. Have to do some more measuring as to how much, but it would probably solve that FL issue. But the Cabrio/Oasis would not have that problem.

I am concerned about a heater. There's so many sideway references that there are some TLs that have heaters. Does anyone KNOW if it's true, and what brands/models they are? I would be interested in a profile wash, but unfortunately there's not a lot of machines (including FLs) that will do this. I've done my own by starting with one wash and then start another wash at a warmer temp. Probably have to do the same thing since I don't know if the machines I'm looking at will do it.

This did bring up another consideration I had forgotten about though, pet hair. I now have a cat and likely will for a number of years. I know many say the FLs do fine, some say to the contrary. Probably not a big thing, just might need an extra rinse or two, which will offset the water "savings".

I guess I'm used to the wash and dry times being similar or the drying to take longer. Not a big thing though since lately I do one load at a time so I don't see a big problem there either. I'm pretty easygoing.

It was amusing to see the contradiction to the other mantras, such as how Americans are the ONLY ones in the world to use top loaders and the like. I like seeing rational, good information instead of hysterical rantings of bullheaded snobs.

I doubt I'll get 30 years use out of my next washer, though I hope I would. But if I buy something decent and with my lower useage, it should serve me well for a long, long time. And frankly, I'll probably be happy with anything I get. Even a $200 Roper or Inglis will still get my clothes clean enough for my use. Isn't that what really is the point of a washer? :)

The Oasis/Cabrio TLers are HE machines that use less water than traditional TLers and require HE detergent just like a FLer. I buy All Small and Might Free and Clear HE for the same price I used to pay for the regular All Small and Mighty Free and Clear. I don't have to use as much in this machine so it actually costs less for the detergent. I have seen a number of people say they would have to pay more for HE detergent. Do some stores charge more for the HE formulations of the detergents than the regular of the same brand? I get mine at Meijers, I wait until it is on sale and usually get it for about $3.50 a bottle.

I think both Fl & TLs are junk compared to years ago. I paid $549 for a mid grade Maytag TL in 1984 and never had a service call. That being said now Maytag's and the rest are going for $399 and it is not because they are made overseas, it is because they are nothing like they used to be! My sister bought a Maytag 3 years ago and it is junk already. With inflation that Maytag I bought would cost around 800-900 now. Why would you pay more for HE detergent? Tide HE is the same price as all the other Tide products and goes on sale just the same. I have never seen a different price for HE since I got my Fl 10 months ago. I have two dogs and I do not need extra rinses to get the dog hair off my clothes.

Speed Queen topload washers/dryers
Maytag MTW topload washers/MED/MGD dryers

I expected to buy a FL, but ended up buying the GE Harmony W/D. Reasons I didn't get the FL:

Vibrations (second floor laundry room)
Space (somewhat limited room between machines and the cabinets facing them)
Stooping down to get clothes out of washer (pedastals would have likely exacerbated the vibration issue)
Door openings (my washer is on the right instead of the left, so the door would be in the way when I moved clothes from the washer to the dryer. Very few models have a reversable Washer door)

Reasons I got the Harmony
Efficiency - close to FL efficiency
Capacity - handles as much or more than any FL out there
Flexibility - I can run a water-hog load if I really want to or need to

I couldn't imagine getting a regular agitator type TL - the Harmony wasn't that much more (got a good deal on it).

No one has addressed the fact that with the front loaders you need to bend way down to reach forward to get the clothes in and out. I have a lousy back and that doesn't work for me. When I reach down into my top loader, I can use one hand on top as a brace, and reach down with the other hand. OR you can spend a couple hundred bucks for the raised platforms. BUT then you cannot use the top of the washer and dryer to fold your clothes (which I do). I also wanted to keep the existing shelf that runs just above the two units. Get the setup that works for you, and also the one that fits in your alloted space.

-Babka

im sorry wat does he detergent?? sorry if a stupid question...we are debating to get a tl or fl...
deb

An HE detergent is designed for washers that use small amount of water like FLs and HE TLs. If you use the conventional detergents in HE washers you may get a problem with too much foam and the washer would add some rinse cycles to get all the detergent out. You can use regular detergent and just cut back on the amount, but the use of HE detergents is recommended by the manufacturer.

Babka,
I understand that TLs are a little easier to load and unload, but where are the matching TL dryers? I don't like to take the clothes out of the TL washer and then having to bend down to get them into and out of the dryer. I think it is easier to just transfer them when the doors are at the same height.

Looser-
Never heard of a TL dryer. I like to fold clothes from the dryer on the top of the dryer and washer. My laundry room isn't very big.

The front loading Cabrio with a glass door dryer has a BIG front door that is slightly recessed into the top. It is extremely easy to reach in and find everything. It has an inside light too. I guess you just have to try these out for yourself in the showrooms in order to see what suits you best.

-Babka

Babka,

Fisher & Paykel has had a full-size topload dryer on the U.S. market since 2004. I have one of the 1st-generation models (DEGX1). Works great for me. They're in the 2nd-generation models now (DEGX2/DGGX2 and DEIX2/DGIX2), but the changes are related to cosmetics/appearance and updated controls/cycle options.

Fisher & Paykel Dryers

I have an old Kenmore dryer I use with my Cabrio that I will hate to replace. It has a door the folds down so you can use it as a table, and a front lint screen. The fold down door makes it easy to load and unload. I just drop the wet laundry on the door and push it in. When I am taking laundry out of the dryer, I fold it right onto the door so I don't have to keep bending and straightening. I have even been know ( when I have a migraine) to pull a stool up next to the dryer and sit there folding the laundry onto the door. That is why I really wanted a front loader, so I would not have to reach down into the washer when I have a pounding headache. Unfortunatly the vibrations caused by the front loader were one great big headache! Now that I have the Cabrio I wish I had bought it in the first place. It is much easier to take cloths out of than my old TLer, the big open drum makes it very easy to get cloths out, and I am only 5 feet tall. It would be even easier for someone taller than me.

I have seen a number of people say they would have to pay more for HE detergent. Do some stores charge more for the HE formulations of the detergents than the regular of the same brand? I get mine at Meijers, I wait until it is on sale and usually get it for about $3.50 a bottle.

OK, let me clarify: Comparing Tide vs Tide HE, I agree the price would be the same or possibly less, but I don't use Tide - makes me itch. Yes it could be residue, but with other detergents that are not causing problems, it's not worth experimenting with. I use different detergents. Arm & Hammer runs me about $1.50/100 oz. I don't pay more than that. I've pretty much switched to powdered, once the 3 or 4 bottles I've built up in stock have been depleated. I use Sun, 150 loads for $8.98, and actually don't use the amount recommended so I'm probably going to get nearly 200 loads from the bucket. I also use the Great Value which has enzymes and runs $3.88/40 loads. 40 loads of Tide is much more, even on sale. So, for the sake of argument, say I switch to Tide (maybe a free & clear HE version wouldn't itch) the cost *is* going to increase. I have seen *no* HE detergents that match the prices I pay for laundry detergent. Gain came close, but wasn't HE on sale so, again, it would cost more. Now, that being said, is the cost all that significant? Not really, in the grand scheme of things. But I like the idea of paying less than $9 for nearly 200 loads rather than about $10 for what, 40-60 loads with Tide. This is why it would cost *me* more, others may not buy the way I do. My goal is to keep cost per load purchase to under 7/load, preferably under a nickel. Not possible with Tide.

FWIW, to me, All is comparable to generics/low price detergents but a higher price. Never had anything more than adequate results with All. In fairness, I haven't used it in years, and my clothes don't get as dirty as they used to, so it could be OK. But again, don't think I can get All for 5¢/load.

The fold down door makes it easy to load and unload. I just drop the wet laundry on the door and push it in. When I am taking laundry out of the dryer, I fold it right onto the door so I don't have to keep bending and straightening. I have even been know ( when I have a migraine) to pull a stool up next to the dryer and sit there folding the laundry onto the door.

I didn't think I'd like the "hamper" (as it's called) style (fold down) door when I was looking. These seem to be unique to Whirlpool. After getting a deal I couldn't refuse I thought it couldn't be that bad and I have come to really like it for the reasons you mentioned. I put my dryer on blocks and a platform to raise it up about 14-15" and I can stand and get the stuff and fold it on the door, then set it on top of the washer or put it into a laundry basket. With it raised up, it's easier to reach into the back of the dryer (and this one is very large) to get everything. I don't have to use the grabber I did with my old, smaller dryer that sat on the floor.

NOW, after saying all that, somewhat OT as it is, back on topic. Just a comment, I am thinking more and more of staying with a TL, after doing the research. Guess it'll be a spur-of-the-moment decision, like my dryer, once the washer dies, but I'm thinking of several TLs mentioned before and also including the Fisher & Paykal. As mentioned, I too find it easier on *me* to lean on the washer and reach down into it to grab the stuff. But I like what I've seen of the new GE and the the Affinity 7000. The FriGEmores don't have a heater (do they?) so they're not really a consideration of mine (figure if I'm going to do it, do it right or at least as best I can) and the Duet/Hettie is out of my price range and doesn't give anything the others don't. I suppose finances at the time could make a difference too. I'd consider springing for the pedestal (but there's another $200), or more likely get some more concrete blocks and raise it up to make it more functional. However, then I'd lose much of the functionality of the top for a work surface. I could probably make do, but it's another consideration on tradeoff. I'd pay more and lose a benefit. Do the other benefits outweigh this loss? That's a decision I'd have to make.

With many things there's a learning curve. Once I got used to a FL I'd probably be very happy. I'm not adverse to different technology. I will say this, though, one of my biggest apprehensions is the computer controls on appliances these days. So many of the problems lie there. I got the mechanical control dryer and it's a simipler technology and hopefully will be more reliable, not subject to surge problems and the like. My old mechanical washer is still going pretty strong so hopefully my decision is a long way off.

So, there's a few other comments and thoughts (and clarifications!). Sorry to be so long-winded! Good luck in your decision!

We researched it but since we don't do that much laundry - maybe 5-6 loads per week - chose to stay with the TL technology. We have the F&P TL pair, washer and dryer. Unlike dadoes we have had several repair calls on the TL dryer, as mentioned elsewhere in other discussions. However, everything was covered under warranty (and we got the extended warranty on the dryer specifically for this reason, since it's new technology and even our local appliance store had some reservations about it). It has been working perfectly since the last repair 8 months ago with no problems, so we may be past the "break-in" point.

We like the F&P very much. I particularly like the auto-sensing water level since we no longer have to guess what water level is needed for smaller loads. It uses very little soap - I think we're down to the 2 Tblsp or less level now - and not only cleans better but is far gentler than the reliable Sears heavy-duty TL washer it replaced.

The dryer has an auto-reverse which helps reduce wrinkling. The lint cup is a great idea that every dryer should have!

We're very pleased with the F&P TL'ers.

I think we're down to the 2 Tblsp or less level nowYou don't say what kind of detergent you use, but I can't imagine 2 tablespoons (1/8 cup) is enough for a anything beyond the smallest size load. Certainly it isn't for a full-size load! I suggest you check the wash water during the deep wash phase (NOT the EcoActive phase!) to confirm that's enough detergent. Rub your fingers together down in the water to check if it "feels slippery." If not, the detergent concentration may not be enough to hold soil and lint in suspension until it can be drained/rinsed away.

Our old (5 years old) "mechanical control" dryer was fried by a power outage surge. So there's enough electronics in even the mechanical control dryers these days to cause problems if there are power surges. I made sure that our new dryer (also "mechanical controls") is on a surge protector. I don't want to lose another dryer to the power company.

-Roger

I imagine jkom is using a concentrated detergent. I use All Free and Clear Small and Mighty HE which is concentrated (3 times according to the label). I use 1 1/2 TBSP per load on all but the dirtiest loads, then I use 2 TBSPs. It cleans everything great. I have been using different formulations of the All Free and Clear since I first saw in at the store, I can't even remember how many years it has been. They have all worked well. The only thing I have trouble cleaning is new clothing, it comes from the store so drenched in chemicals, fragrances and irritants that it sometimes takes as many as 5 washes to remove all the residues. I don't think it is because the detergent does not work well, I think is is because of the amount of residues on the fabric, especially elastic which is very hard to remove scents from. I guess I could use a scented detergent to cover the smells with a different smell...but then that would cause me problems. Does anyone know a way to remove fragrance residues from fabric that is safe for people with multiple allergies and chemical sensitivities? I've tried adding vinegar or baking soda, that does not work any better. Clorox now makes a Free and Clear color safe bleach which helps a bit. I cannot use oxiclean, it leaves a residue that bothers my allergies.

I have a bottle of triple-concentrated Wisk HE (for my Calypso). Will use it in the F&P at the next opportunity, check how much is needed to get slippery water on a larger-size load. I can say that in the Calypso a full cap-measure is typically needed. I've tried the lower-line dose and it's not quite enough.

dadoes,

You have a Calypso now too?

I've researched both and have decided on a TL over a FL for the following reasons...

1. I'm almost 40, have 3 degenerated discs from a bad car accident 20 years ago, and the bending at the knees to pick out clothing from the washer would kill my knees...bending over the edge of the top loader is actually a lot easier on my back. I won't do those pedestals because I like for my appliances to be little seen and less heard...plus it'd cover up my only window in that room.

2. I do have friends that have complained about the mold and long wash cycle...I have 3 kids...I always am wanting to throw something in last minute or even 2 minutes into the wash...you can't do that with these...I would say that 5 times out of 10 we leave our wash in there for up to a day! Life happens and we just can't always do our laundry as scheduled...with asthma in our family, no mold is a good motto.

I haven't decided between the Cabrio/GE Harmony, but we've had our Whirlpool for 15 years with one small repair costing $80...not bad. For $2000 or more I'd expect there to be no mold issue, a more ergonomic design for back issues, be able to add things when I need to...I'll stick to the new TL's with no agitator in the middle.

Tara

timindy, I've had the (used) Calypso since 10/14/2006. I use it every couple weeks, whenever opportunity arises. :-)

lmhall2000, fifteen years with a washer dryer pair is pretty good. Ten years is usually more typical, but this is with 10 or more wash loads a week.

You might also want to consider the new Fisher & Paykel AquaSmart washer. It's F&P's version of the Cabrio. I don't know for sure whether it's available yet, but some posters say that they have seen it in stores.

I think I'd worry about the F&P machines. Their dw's don't have a stellar repair record according to complaints here on the GW. The other thing that really bothered me is that on the display W&D on the floor at Lowes, was that the plastic at the back of the machine was ragged. This is something that your clothes or hands could get caught on. DH with his pocket knife could clean it off permanently, but how shoddy is that to deliver these machines without cleaning off the junk from molding the plastic?

The plastic is at the back of the inside of the machine below the hinges where the lid lifts up. It's the edge of the tub more or less.

The standard recommended dose of Wisk HE (to the first line of the cap) is 1 oz. That's equivalent to 2 tablespoons (four tablespoons = 1/4 cup, which is 2 oz.). Running a load of queen-size sheets (fitted, flat, & three pillow cases), I used 2 tablespoons at the start. The EcoActive wash phase had "slippery" water and a slight bit of sudsing. The deep wash phase filled to the medium/low water level. Checking the water, it was just on the fringes of being slippery, but not quite enough. I added more Wisk HE, one teaspoon at a time. Two more teaspoons got the water feeling about right. Three teaspoons is equivalent to one tablespoon. So 2-2/3 tablespoons of triple-concentrated Wisk HE is the proper dosage for a lightly soiled load at medium-low water level in my F&P toploader (at approximately 11 grains water hardness). Of course, regular (not triple-concentrated) powdered or liquid detergents would need correspondingly more.

This is the sheets at medium-low water level.
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To illustrate the difference, this is high water level. Doesn't seem likely 2-2/3 tablespoons would be sufficient.
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People who are using minuscule amounts of detergent and getting good results may have softened water, or are running small loads. Either way, follow whatever dosing and procedures work for you!

Wow, that is a whole lot of water in the second picture. The only cycle on my Cabrio with that much water is the Clean Washer cycle. Which F & P model is this, and which cycle? Just curious.

First picture is an IWL12. Second is a GWL08. That's the 'normal' highest water level, which would be for any cycle running a full-size load.

Remember, all F&P toploaders were traditional agitator-type machines ... until the new AquaSmart that just hit the market.

You had a really nice laundry set up in your kitchen.

What do you use the Calypso for?

Is it in the garage?

Think you'll get an AquaSmart?

Enjoy!

>>People who are using minuscule amounts of detergent and getting good results may have softened water, or are running small loadsYes, that's exactly why we can use the smaller amounts of detergent (and it is a concentrated one, too) for our loads. Our city water is extremely good, and low in minerals so it never takes much soap in ANY appliance or even a sinkful of water.

dadoes,

Just noticed your post in another thread about the AquaSmart being siblings to the Cabrio and Bravos HE models - they do look similiar but (as you know)the AquaSmart seems to be more advanced - offering conventional wash as well as HE wash capabilities.

You deserve an upgrade dadoes!

:-)

I'm not so sure that adding conventional wash to an HE top load washer is an "advance".

First off, if someone wants a "conventional wash", they should consider buying a conventional washer, otherwise they are are going to pay a lot of money for features they don't want.

Secondly, these new impeller HE top loaders don't work well at all with a conventional deep fill wash. That's what agitators are for. The same wash load washed in a "deep fill" agitator washer is going to come out much cleaner than a wash load washed in an impeller style HE washer with a "deep fill", because impellers need to have the water level set correctly depending on the wash load size, and wash load type,(towels, sheets, shirts, etc ..) in order for them to work properly.

Some might argue that people should be free to choose to use more water or less water as they feel appropriate, but that's what all the different wash cycles are supposed to do. Depending on the type of clothes you want to wash, you pick the appropriate wash cycle, which in turn adjusts the water to the correct level so that cleaning performance remains optimized.

Washer man is correct about HE impellers. The level of water should be just about at the same level as the cloths. This keeps the cloths down at the bottom of the tub and in contact with the impeller so they circulate properly. If you add extra water to do a deep fill, the cloths will float to the top and will not circulate. Unless they have found some way to keep the cloths from floating in the water, I don't think a deep fill on an HE TLer will work very well. You might as well just let the cloths sit in a sink of soapy water.