Here is the power use chart for the "Heavy Duty" cycle. This is with the same load of clothing from the "normal/casual" experiment above.

The setting were:

Hot temp
Light soil
Extra High spin
(no second rinse or oxi)

The internal heater runs for about 15 minutes. I've read others say the internal heater can raise the temp about 1F/minute. This would be consistant with a 105F inlet with a 120F target as observed.
{{!gwi}}

2nd Floor Laundry Room Considerations:

This machine has not been a problem in our second floor laundry room. Yes, there is the typical high speed spin noise, but the machine doesn't walk or shake the house. Our old Asko would make the picture frames on the 1st floor vibrate; no problem with this one at all (so far). The HE5t tries pretty hard to balance the loads and spin them out. What I find impressive is that many loads will appear poorly balanced at certain slower rotational rates, but nicely smooth out as the spin speeds up.

The floor prep for our remodel wasn't anything special. I added some cross bracing where the plywood sub-floor was cut open for the placement of plumbing. Cement board was then placed above and tile everywhere including under the drain pan.

Wow gordonr...

I would love to hear what Sears is going to say to this finding of yours.

I'm not interested in the "Steam" function either but I was considering it due to heater supposedly being active to maintaining the temp. in more cycles.

Good work on your part and thanks for posting it here.

Below is a picture of a spreadsheet showing the various options available in the different cycles.

If someone with a non-steam HE5t would check the following I'd be most appreciative...

When using your "Stain Treat" option, what temperatures are available in the various cycles where this option is available? This may be another difference between the two machines. I remember something where it always filled with warm and heated the water to either hot or sanitary depending on the cycle. It seems with the steam version you can now select "warm" as the target temperature. I assume if you do this it now fills with "cool" water and heats to "warm" but haven't tested this theory.

FWIW - The one time I've tried "Normal/Casual" with "Steam Treat" it absolutely did use the heater for quite a long time (DHW was set at 122F at that point). When shining a light in the drum I never saw any sign of steam. I took this as a positive as it seems like they didn't let the marketing hoax get in the way of proper water heating.

{{!gwi}}

The carnival called Sears customer service has begun!

First call...

Delivery Customer Service transfers me to...

Rapid Response Resolution Dept who transfers me to...

Customer Relations for Windows and Doors (this person was actually the most helpful!) who transfers me to...

Customer Services for Appliances who transfers me to...

Delivery Customer Services who wants to transfer me to...

Rapid Response Resolution Dept at which point I put an end to this.

Never would anyone actually transfer me to a manager level person. The next stop is back to the store and talk with the sales manager.

After speaking with the sales line at the local Sears store I was given a phone number to call with someone who actually seemed trained in this area, but without detailed knowledge of the inner workings of the machine.

You almost have to be an attorney, but his take was that the manual specifically says it only uses the heater when you've chosen that particular cycle with the "preset temperature" for that cycle. For as crazy as it seems you could interpret that to mean it ONLY works at that one particular "default" temp setting. For example, for "Normal/Casual" that would mean the heater would only work if you've chosen "warm" as the temperature but not "hot". This wouldn't be a great outcome, but I could see how Sears could defend the operation of the machine based on the language used in the manual.

Being away for several days gave me a great opportunity to test this out. Before leaving the DHW source was set to 90F, and confirmed with measurements at a faucet upon return.

A "Normal/Casual" cycle with "Warm" temp, Extra High Spin and 2nd Rinse gave the following power time graph...

{{!gwi}}

It's apparent the machine still doesn't use it's internal heater on "Normal/Casual". The conversation with Sear will continue with an in store visit with the manager. Stay tuned...

Here is the power-time graph for a load run on Heavy Duty with Warm water, Normal Soil, Extra High Spin, 2nd Rinse with the DHW set at 122F. What is interesting here is that "Warm" temperature is reported to be anywhere from 80F to 105F from different reporting sources and Heavy Duty still kicks in the internal heater for about 17 minutes. With the DHW set at 122F, the machine's ATC should easily be able to mix the water to get any temperature from 80F to 105F without any problem. Even so, the machine's logic still thought the water temperature too cool and kicked in the heater. This gives credibility to a couple of ideas previously talked about... Maybe ATC doesn't do a very good job in HE front loaders where relatively little water is used and/or the cold washing tank and clothing draw a bunch of the initial heat out of the wash water so after things settle the actual wash temp is lower than the fill temperature. Either way this graph shows why a heater that operates in all cycles would be highly desirable.

{{!gwi}}

My older HE3t's cycles are differnet than the new machines, but I thought that the main default setting for the heavy duty cycle is that the stain treat option was active. On my washer, that means the wash starts with warm water and is heated to hot. Perhaps on the steam washer the steam generator is producing steam?

It is my experience that many times the ATC can't reach the preset temp, most often in the winter when the cold water is very cold. When warm is selected, the first minute or so of the fill is a 50/50 mix of hot and cold, so if the cold is very cold and the hot water takes a while to get to the machine, then the temp can be significantly lower than the preset warm temp. After that, the ATC will add only hot until the warm temp is reached. Often, the fill is complete before the temp is reached and the heater will kick on to finish heating the water to 104F. Larger loads that use more water have more of a chance of reaching the proper temp during the fill.

Joe

Does anybody know where the ATC is sensing the temperature?
Is it in the tub or in the water inlet area?

It is in the tub.

Joe

Whitest Whites Cycle does use the internal heater...

{{!gwi}}

Fascinating stuff. Really. Now if I could only find it for the non-steam Duet.

Here is the graph for a Normal-Hot-Steam Treat cycle. Not sure what is happpening, but it's heating/steam generating for about 50 minutes. Every once in a while you hear a whoosh sound during this part of the cycle. I'm guessing that is the steam. Doesn't seem to happen through the whole heating-wash cycle and I can't see any steam in the wash drum. Wish an inexpensive waterproof temp datalogger that could withstand 600 g-force was available so a temperature profile could be gathered.

{{!gwi}}

Joe,

On this machine Heavy Duty doesn't preset "steam treat". I believe the "steam treat" profile wash options are somewhat different than previous (including the HE5t-non steam) "stain treat" options. You can "steam treat" profile with a wash temperature setting of warm, warm/warm, hot or sanitary depending on the cycle. As I remember, prior machines always started at warm and heated to hot or sanitary. Don't really know the fill temperature of the new machine if you choose "warm" as your target. All I know is in the test run the heater/steam generator was active for almost 50 minutes. This seems excessive for just heating warm water to hot (assuming warm was 104F-ish and hot is 120F-ish).

However, the ATC seems to work in a similar way to what you describe. We haven't done serial loads yet so can't comment on how it fills a second small load but I'd guess it's exactly how you describe.

Brought the DHW tank down to 72F thinking that maybe for Normal/Casual the DHW temp was too hot given the wide-range (80 to 104F) reported temps for "warm". Figured if anything might activate the internal heater in "normal/casual" this should do it.

It's official now... Contrary to the Sears manual, the machine does not use the heater in "normal/casual" except when using the "stain treat" option.

{{!gwi}}

And the very last test I'm planning on recording...

The Kidswear cycle does use the internal water heater.

{{!gwi}}

Armed with all this data I feel confident going to talk with the Sears Appliance sales manager at the local store.

My bottom line observations at this point:

1) Functionally it's a pretty good machine although a mixed bag to be sure. Can't help but think the whole steam thing is a fad/gimmick and might just create a service problem down the road.

2) Sears does misrepresent the feature set as it does not use the internal water heater in Normal/Casual. This was the only reason I bought this machine over the non-steam version so I'm expecting some compensation or a machine swap.

3) I like the additional rinse options. The rinse performance seems fine. Right now using up some Tide HE, but plan on buying a box of Biokleen powder next and giving that a try.

4) The machine almost tries too hard to balance loads to a point of fault (sometimes it adds over 30 minutes as it keeps trying to get the high speed spin just perfect).

5) So far the cleaning seems on par with our previous Asko and Danby. Haven't done enough loads to be 100% behind this claim yet. It's downright freaky to not see any water at the bottom of the tub, but all the clothing is wet and you hear wet clothing slapping sounds so I figure the detergent puddle must be there but not visible because of the tilted drum.

6) Can't really decide if the Timed Oxi option has significant value. Never had an issue before with just adding it to the detergent mix. Guess it can't hurt adding a cleaning agent midway throught the wash cycle when the wash water temperature has risen (assuming the use of the internal heater).

7) Like the Miele W4840, you can work around some of the lack of heater in Normal/Casual issues. Heavy Duty, Whitest Whites and Kidswear can all be used instead of Normal and the internal heater operates as expected. The only issue is that Normal/Casual and Bulky Bedding are the only two cycles that have a "medium" wash action, and Bulky Bedding doesn't allow spin higher than medium. I didn't test Bulky Bedding but I'm guessing the heater does work in that cycle.

I think I remember reading the Miele advertising for the 48XX machines last year. It said that the machine performed better than the 2008 energy standards. Reading that led me to beleive that the energy standards would be tightened once again in 2008. If so we probably are not going to find most machines using a lot of water or a heater on it's normal cycle since I think that is the cycle that must be tested for energy consumption.

I would like to know what temps are now considered warm and hot...I wonder if they have also been lowered?

Kinda glad I have an oldie.

Please continue to let us know your findings.

There really should be a definition or a standard for the temperature names and their actual values. Care labels on clothing specify a recommended named temperature and detergents need to be formulated to work best as well. There was a recent post where someone reported Whirlpool saying that warm could be as cold as 80F. Bosch Nexxt guarantees warm at 90F while many machines such as Miele defines it as 104F. I don't have the gear to measure temps inside the tub but sense the HE5t is shooting for 104F based on the hot/cold being drawn by the ATC control. When a cycle is used that kicks on the heater, there is no question it's going for the 104F mark. Maybe it's irrational but that 90F warm was the only thing that kept me from choosing Bosch.

I would agree that some external market or technical pressures seem to contribute towards a non-feature rich Normal cycle being present on atleast the HE5t, Whirlpool Duet and Miele. It's probably a combination of factors. I would buy that Energy Star drives them to ultra-minimal water consumption. The Energy Star formulas are suppose to account for water heating costs whether it takes place at the machine or the DHW source. Kind of think the non-heater on normal also has to do with keeping the "everyday" cycle as short as possible. Consumer Reports lists cycle times as one of their criteria and anyone coming from a TLer will think the HE5t's 50 minute normal cycle as already on the edge of initial (i.e. willing to buy) acceptability.

Gordonr

Good point about keeping the normal cycle time short so that people are not turned off from buying.

When I first thought about buying my FL machine in 2002 and looked at the times I wondered if I could live with them until I realized the actual time it was taking my current TL machine.

Even though it did a max 14 minute wash the entire unit just sat still until all of the water(23 gals) entered which took over 6 minutes. Then it sat again doing nothing for more than 6 minutes while 23 gals of water entered for the deep rinse..and then it only rinsed for 2 minutes. So after taking my conditions with the fill time into account the actual wash times on the FL didn't seem so bad.

In my TL the temperature of the warm water felt so cold that I used to mix the water myself, by first running hot water in, and then switching the temp to cold..that way I got water I thought was warm.

I enjoy reading your findings.

Ok, this is really the last one :->

Had to wash some bath rugs so gave the bulky-bedding cycle a try. It fills with lot of water so ATC gets it pretty close. Even so, the internal heater still turned on for about 4 minutes. Everything is now verified... the internal heater works in every cycle noted by Sears except normal.

{{!gwi}}

gordonr,

Thanks for your postings. I find the readings interesting. The machine operates basically how I expected.

I think the reason the heater does not work on the normal cycle is because the energy ratings are based on a normal cycle. Using the heater on that cycle would make the machine less efficient. People who really care about an exact wash temp can use other cycles. I noticed on the newer machines, warm/warm is not an option on the normal cycle. It is an option on my nearly 5 year old HE3t.

I am not sure I get exactly how the steam option helps clean the clothes. If the wash temp is warm, and the clothing is saturated with warm water, does the hot steam in the interior actually do something to help clean? The only thing I could think it would do would be to help heat the wash water to a higher temp. Perhaps over the extended wash period the steam helps maintain the water temp. Have you ever measured the water temp at the end of a steam wash before the wash water drains?

Also, does the normal cycle add cold water before draining the wash water? Mine does to reach 77F before draining. In the summer, when my cold water can be nearly 80F, it will add "cold" water for up to two minutes before draining.

Joe

Joe,

I've noticed it adds cold water before draining the wash water. Don't know if it's on all cycles, but it does it on "normal/casual" for sure. Our winter cold water is around 40F and summer high about 55F to 60F so shouldn't run into the same problem as you.

Not really familiar enough with the machine yet to know how to check the water temp prior to the end of the wash cycle. Is it possible to stop the machine and open the door without canceling the cycle and having it pump the water out? Hitting stop once allows you to change options or modifiers but I'm not sure if that action unlocks the door. If it's possible, I have an IR thermometer that would give a rough idea of the actual temps and I'd be glad to acquire that data.

I'm with you on the whole steam thing. Being a steam skeptic for some time now I've gotten use to being tarred and feathered by those who luv their steam LG's. As an owner of a steam machine now I haven't been converted. If I end up keeping this machine maybe time will give me another perspective, but I agree that it's probably just a different way of raising the wash temperature and probably has no different effect than a straight heater. When looking at the internals of the LG steam I noted it's lack of a flushing/cleaning capability and if the same is true of the HE5t-Steam I'd say the long term prospects for steam is a negative vs. a straight heater.

What cycle do you recommend for a "normal/casual" type load where the heater is used? Do you think the wash action of "heavy duty" or "whitest whites" is so much more aggressive that it shouldn't be used? Sure wish they had a "Save Energy Minus" option you could choose that would give you a proper "normal/casual" cycle.

gordonr,

The "shot" of cold water at the beginning of the cycle (including the "spin only" cycle) is part of the child safety routine. The door locks, cold water added, and then the door unlocks. If little kids are playing with the machine, this is supposed to scare them.

I do not think the HD/WW cycles are too aggressive. The pauses are a bit shorter and the drum tumbles a bit faster, but it is difficult to even tell the difference. LG's tumble faster on nearly all cycles. The wash action is much gentler than a traditional top load washer with agitator.

The more aggressive cycles do have faster spins between the cycle segments, and the final spin selection does not alter the internal spins.

In the winter, if I am washing a small load I want washed in warm, I can just set the temp to hot on the normal cycle, and at the end of the fill the water temp is very close to 104F.

On all cycles, hitting pause once will pause the cycle. The door will unlock unless it is a delicate cycle that uses a higher water level, or if the internal temp is higher than 120F. My machine has different cycles than yours, but on the delicate/silk/wool/ultra handwash cycles, the water level is higher and the door does not unlock. Pausing the machine and changing the cycle to another cycle, like normal, causes the door to immediately unlock. Just remember to reselect the original cycle before restarting the machine. If you want, you can change the cycle midway though. It will continue at the equivalent point in the new cycle.

When using a soak on a large load like towels, the water level sometimes does rise above the bottom of the door, and it will unlock if you pause the cycle, so check the water level before opening the door.

Of course my descriptions are based on my machine. Perhaps your washer works differently.

Joe

Did several loads today and used the stuff Joe talked about to get temperature readings. Here is a composite of 3 cycles (Normal/Casual, Bulky/Bedding, Heavy Duty) all trying to be at Hot wash temperature.

At least in the winter, ATC mixes a Normal/Casual Cycle with our DHW and tap cold temperatures at about 105F. So to get a real "Warm" you should choose "Hot". Bulky/Bedding uses much more wash water, but even so ATC only mixes it to 105F initially and then heats it an additional 11F. For some reason, Heavy Duty only filled at 95F and then heated it to 110F.

Not quite sure how you get a real hot wash of 120F. Will experiment more with setting my DHW about 10F hotter and also see what happens if the DHW is cooler.

{{!gwi}}

What about achieving and holding a true bedbug-killing 150F (or whatever the correct temperature is)?

gordonr,

That is very interesting. Thanks for your detailed postings.

I see you set the soil level to normal. There is a max amount of time that the heater will activate, regardless if the proper temp has been reached. If the soil level is set to high, then the heater will stay on longer if necessary. At least that is my experience. :-) On my washer, the HD and WW cycles (with stain treat option off) will use the heater a max of 7 min on the normal soil level setting, and 16 min on high. The total cycle time is only 60 minutes for heavy soil, 10 minute more if the 2nd rinse option is selected. I believe the cycle times are longer on the newer models.

Joe

Umm 110F doesn't sound to hot, for a Hot temperature.

Joe do you know the highest temperature you can get with your washer?

The highest temp it will reach is 153F, and that is only on the sanitary cycle.

Joe

Here are the temps through a Normal-Stain Treat profile wash. Above some temp (I'm guessing to be 120F) the door won't open when you pause the machine so those temps are estimates based on the rate of increase of the first three data points. This version of "hot" seems to get up to almost 130F.

Joe -

From the little data collected, looking at "Heavy Duty" it appears the machine heats for about 17 or 18 minutes with Normal Soil and maybe for only 14 or 15 with Light Soil. To be honest, can't really tell yet if it's only heating for a fixed amount of time or trying to hit a target temperature although I'm betting on the former. I'll have to try a "Heavy Duty" with "Heavy Soil" and see how long the heater heats.

Jerrod6 -

Yup - 110F doesn't sound very hot, but that's good compared to the scalding 105F you get from ATC on "Normal/Casual". Depending on whether I keep this machine or not, I may do some test where I juice up the DHW to 140F and see if that makes any difference.

{{!gwi}}

Went to the Sears store today with all this data and spoke with the store manager (the appliance mgr was off today).

I must say he was understanding and very gracious and offered to help bring me satisfaction. He said they are willing to make this right for me however I'd like to approach a solution...

1) Return for full refund. Buy a machine not sold by Sears. If this option is chosen the question is - what to get?

2) Give an additional financial compensation for the existing machine. Although this machine isn't perfect, it does many things well, and could be a real value compared to other choices. It's also the devil I know in all too much detail as opposed to the unknown.

3) Exchange with price adjustment for another machine Sears sells (e.g. HE5t (non steam), LG, Samsung, etc)

Maybe I'm flirting with danger but in many ways the Miele W4840 is known to have some flaws but might be the lesser of the various evils. On the positive I remember crooks101 saying the ATC on the Miele was much more on-target in "normal" cycle than the Kenmore even though the internal heater wasn't used. In all other cycles the Miele does use the internal heater and has a more traditional view of cycle temperatures (cold=86; warm=104; very warm=122; hot=140). It seems the big risk with the Miele is whether it will introduce an unreasonable vibration problem. BTW - speaking with Miele customer support they are well aware of the crooks101 and other issues discussed here. When I brought up some point they said, "you must read gardenweb."

The other choice would be some LG model as they claim to use their internal heater as well in most cycles. As I remember, LG defines the temps in an acceptable way, but it's not clear which models absolutely do use the heater. LG service remains a point of caution as well.

My Miele W1986 is very heavy..it was heavier than my 9820 dryer but I wonder if the 48XX washer is as heavy as my 1986. I guess it is. You had an Asko. I would guess that the 6K miele and the Asko were close in weight. Did you have vibrations with the Asko?

If you are thinking about the 48XX I would take a look at the owners manual and read the installation requirements.

I also would not have it on a pedestal because it introduces another variable into the balancing, load adjusting, vibration scene. Truth is my dryer is sitting on the floor and it is high enough that way.

Also you can check out consumer reports...I know...I know..but they just did a review of washers. I think they ranked the first three as LG(although I know they are not thinking of service problems right now) and 4th was the Miele. Maybe they have done testing we haven't thought of...probably not... but maybe..at least another point of view.

Don't do it Gordonr. If you thought you were unhappy before, just wait till you get the W4840. Crooks 101 spent all his time railing about the heater. He should have spent more time talking about the helicopter landing on his house during the spin cycle. "Best of luck"

jerrod6 -

The Miele w48xx is heavy. It's about 45 lbs more than the HE5t at about 290 lbs. Our Asko spun out at 1600 rpm (about 600 g-force) and it shook pictures on the walls below. The W48xx spins out at 1400 rpm but given the larger drum it's about the same g-force as the Asko. The Asko also sounded like a jet engine. The laundry room remodel made some improvements to the subfloor and the position of the washer is now about 3 feet from where the joists connect to their structural support. Even the drain pan is screwed into the subfloor/joist system. The old setup had the machine at about the mid-point of the joist's span. Given these changes is difficult to compare the old with the new. Never had a plan for a pedestal so that isn't an issue.

darboydoughboy -

After a while insanity sets in - what can I say! No decisions yet, but if I go Miele I'll proceed with great caution. I did say to my appliance sales rep - "you think Miele is ready for a customer like me?" His response was to point to the 90 day satisfaction guarantee (and remember all the things you need to do to take advantage of that program).

gordonr,

After you have observed and used the HE5t, I would be interested in your review of the Miele. But if you are happy enough with what you have, and Sears is willing to give you some financial compensation, maybe sticking with the HE5t is the way to go. Based on Consumer Reports, only the HE5t, Duet, and Miele received the highest score for washing performance...the primary duty of a washing machine. ;-)

Joe

Gordonr

If you've read my comments in Crooks101 thread you know that I am no fan of ANY of the new machines and would like to stick with my smaller 220V model. I just don't want any of these new FLs or TL.

However if you decide to get the 4840 I also would be interested in reading your review(s) and any technical info you may generate.

Actually - please tell us about what ever you get!

Joe, jerrod6 & other technoid washaholics,

Many thanks for your comments in this thread. No decision yet - I'm still collecting some more cycle temp data trying to nail down the range of temps for warm temps in various cycles. You can be sure I'll generate more of this kind of stuff if I decide to change it our for another machine.

i would return the kenmores...its made from whirpool right?they are not made the same anymore...too many problems!

Getting a good normal wash in "warm" water is a bread and butter kind of cycle. Being a traditionalist, I define a "warm" wash as being 104F give or take. Being curious what a HE5t normal-warm would be (knowing it doesn't use the heater) I measured a couple of these cycles 8 to 10 minute after starting the machine. At this point in the cycle all the water that's going to enter the machine for the wash portion of the cycle has been added. Temperatures were measured in the 82F to 84F range. It is a major disappointment that ATC can't or wasn't programmed to get the fill temp at a real "warm" level. A previous test showed that choosing a "hot" normal wash actually gives you fill temp of 105F in one of my tests, so atleast in the winter you have another way of getting there.

Here is some more data. Tried a cycle today that has some promise. It's a normal warm wash with steam treat. It fills with 92F water (somewhat higher than the normal cycle without steam treat) and heats the water to 103F and the heater is only on for about 15 minutes. Now that's starting to feel like a normal-warm wash. The cycle took a bit over an hour and a half (including the extra rinse) so that isn't too bad either. It also seems like the temperature of the fill water is about the same whether you choose steam treat-warm or hot (low to mid 90s F). It seems like the ability to choose steam treat with a target temp of warm in addition to hot or sanitary is a new capability.

{{!gwi}}

Now getting a real "hot" wash is another matter. A normal-steam treat-hot certainly get you there with maximum temps approaching 130F but it ends up being almost 2 hours in length with over an hour in the wash cycle alone. The heavy duty hot also kicked on the heater with a cycle length of a bit over 1.5 hours, but it only reached 110F which is a very coolish hot. Have to give Whitest-Whites hot a try. Based on previous data showing how long the heater was on in W-W, that may give the desired result.

You mentioned using steam treat. Can you see steam, can you tell what it does? Does the term steam treat have a trademark next to it?

It seems "steam treat" is pretty similar to a non-steam "stain treat" profile wash. When you open the door to shoot an IR temp reading off the clothing I've never noticed steam. You don't see any steam inside during the wash cycle. In the manual, "steam treat" has a "tm" after it. I'm guessing there must be some steam somewhere being generated, but I can't see any magic other than marketing magic.

I am just wondering because Whirlpool is notorious for creating terms to describe something their products do.

For example:

Direct Inject to describe spraying concentrated water over clothes. When I first heard that I thought "Umm I want direct inject - that sounds good." Sixth Sense to describe the use of sensors to monitor water temperatures and fill amounts.

It all sounds like the greatest thing until you realize that other brands do a form of same thing they just don't give it a Madison Av. term.

Maybe the machine has a small container of water that is being heated to create steam. Or maybe there isn't any steam and they are referring to heating the water as if to create steam. At least it seems like you are getting a higher temperature when you use steam. I am just wondering about how useful steam really is. You had an Asko. It didn't use steam but it did heat to 205F..was this able to clean stains and get whites clean?

Have you tried whites whites yet? Will it whiten without the use of LCB? Get a bunch of white socks...walk around the house and outside in them and then do a whites whites cycle with and without LCB.

Did a small load (3.5 lbs) this evening in Whitest-Whites, Hot, Normal Soil, 2nd Rinse, Timed Oxi, Extra High Spin.

The fill temperature at the 10 minute mark was 99F. In predictable fashion the internal heater kicked on at 12 minutes and ran about 28 minutes with the end of wash temperature at about 122F. The wash portion of the cycle was about 40 minutes with a total length of 1 hour 25 minutes. My prior trial of W-W with a much larger load ran for the same length of time. Seems like the cycle is set to run a certain length of time rather than run until it achieves a certain temperature. My guess is that with a larger load it wouldn't reach as high as 122F. Have to give Whitest-Whites another try with a larger load.

Are you still using a DHW setting of 122F or is it lower?

Hopefully I am not asking you too many questions! I am curious of the changes that have been made since the first HE3t came out. :-)

Does the heater usually turn on 12 minutes after the start of the cycle, or 12 minutes after the fill stops? On my washer, the heater always turns on exactly one minute after the fill stops. Fill time varies depending on the size of the load, with a very large load taking up to 5 minutes to fill. After about 3 minutes, the water flows continuously until the proper amount has been added.

Does the timed oxy option affect how the heater operates or any other aspect of the cycle, or does it just cause the dispenser to be flushed at a certain time?

Joe

jerrod6 -

DHW still set to 122F.

Only reason I lowered it before was to determine there was absolutely no condition where the heater would turn on in "normal/casual" cycle other than choosing the steam treat option. Feel like I've now characterized the machine and understand its pros and cons. Now to make a decision.

Joe -

I'm happy to supply my detailed observations. Since I'm not familar with the HE3t to the same degree, I'll do my best.

No matter what the cycle, the machine pauses after 12 minutes and goes into "thinking mode" for several seconds (the display of time remaining goes off and you see a simple graphic animation). After it "thinks" two main things happen. If the heater is going to turn on, this is when that happens. It also updates the time remaining display when it comes back. It's never shortened the time for me so far, but if it's a larger load it usually adds about 10 or so minutes at this point.

Water fill starts a minute into the cycle. After some tumble action it adds more. Depending on the load it may come back additional times and add more water until it reaches the level it desires.

Timed Oxi happens about mid-way through the wash cycle and stops the heater (if it's on) and adds ATC mixed water flushing that compartment. After the Oxi flush the heater starts back up. The whole flush takes well under a minute.

The other difference previously noted was that "steam treat" can be selected with a "warm" target temperature in addition to "hot" or "sanitize".

Thanks, gordonr.

The thinking part is very interesting. My machine never adds time, though it will pause or slow the countdown when it spends extra time redistributing the load for a spin. The time will be adjusted down at the start of the final spin sequence if necessary, but that is not common.

The steam treat option with a warm temp setting operates different than the stain treat option. When I select stain treat, hot is selected, unless it is the sanitary cycle, and extra hot is mandated. Only the sanitary cycle can select the extra hot water temp. I like the temperature flexibility of the steam washer.

My fill starts with the child safety routine, then about 50 seconds of water at the set temp. It will pause for 10 seconds and fill for 20 seconds, with the ATC adjusting the temp as needed. The on and off fill goes on for about 2 minutes, and then the water stays on until the proper amount of water is added.

The water level is not always the same. It depends on the size of the load and the cycle. It was explained to me that the way it fills is that it measures the amount of water that is added to reach a preset level of water in the drum. Larger and more absorbent loads will soak up more water. Then the machine adds a proportion more of water based on the amount of water absorbed. So a small load will have a smaller pool of water at the bottom of the drum than a larger load. The machine then remembers how much water was used for the wash, and adds a calculated amount more to the rinse. The rinses have a higher water level than the wash, and the soak and delicate cycles use even more water, often bringing the water level over the bottom seal of the door.

Joe