Wild! Isn't it cool when we finally figure out that we've been looking at something the wrong way? Asking the wrong question, so to speak?

Wonder where this insight will lead us?...

Not to go too far off track, but I've often thought the same thing about autism. That it's not a 'disease' or 'disorder' in itself, but rather a name that we attach to a constellation of symptoms, and that those symptoms could be produced by any number of disorders. I've been thinking that way for about 10 years, and it seems science is finally coming around to the same thoughts... Wonder where that will lead?

Wonder where this insight will lead us?...

Probably not too far. The people selling all the supposed "immune boosters" will still sell them. Sadly, most people would rather believe in magic than science.

I totally believe in nature's pharmacy and that various supplements or foods can protect or assist the body in fighting infection. I'm fine using my own experience to back it. Science is often very late to the party, letting us all know what we've already known for quite some time. I don't load my body with an arsenal of supplements every day but do use things as or when needed.

Regarding the article, I have read (decades ago) that the cold symptoms we experience are the body fighting off the invasion. It may be news to the author of the article but certainly isn't anything new. The nose runs to wash things out, a fever is creating an inhospitable environment, etc., which is why I believe it's best to let the body handle things and to just let the infection run its natural course (without ingesting all the symptom controlling cold remedies and such they sell us). I would think the range of symptoms would be a combination of those caused by the invader and those of the battle.

And there certainly are doctors and science that do support, for example, taking zinc for colds. Garlic and vitamin C are also promoted, and beneficial in my own personal experience. There are lots of good and beneficial things from nature that can be used for a variety of medicinal purposes, and Western medicine finally seems to be coming around to them. I prefer to listen to Dr. Weil because he's well rounded in his education and experience.

I'm also not quite following the logic in the article. So, because I rarely get colds (or flu), it's not because my immune system is so good but rather because it isn't and I really have a cold and just don't know it?

This article just seems kind of gimmicky to me. It is interesting when what was once believed is then thought to be the opposite (and it does seem to happen a lot) but I don't think it will ever be counterproductive to supply the body with the nutrients it needs to function optimally. Provided someone isn't overdoing it, why would 'boosting one's immunity' to disease be a bad idea?

I agree with you, Terriks. Flower essence and homeopathy flies in the face of modern day science yet people spend billions each year on this stuff. As long as people will buy the crap on the market, they will continue to make it.

Interesting about colds! I've never tried to boost my immune system. It just sounds silly to me.

I'm with Spring on this one.

I think what people spend billions on each year is all the pharmacological poison they feed us. That's a huge money-making business and the primary way our doctors treat us. A pill for everything. Not meaning that it is never necessary to take man-made medicine or radical treatments for a condition (they can be lifesavers and we should be grateful for all the hard work, study, and time put into them), but that they are over prescribed and often unnecessary. Antibiotics are a good example of an abused and misunderstood medicine over the years. Cold medicines are another questionable area. But a big money-maker. And they only treat the symptoms. Does that mean they're inhibiting the immune system? Many doctors feel they actually slow down recovery and that the best thing to do is let the cold run its course. My doctor is at one of the top hospitals in the country and they have been gradually respecting and introducing alternative approaches, including vitamins, herbs, and other supplements. Once there's valid research or clinical work to back it, they can prescribe it safely with some data and confidence. There is valid and promising research being done on more natural remedies and treatments, some of it being recognized by the NIH. Open doors and minds are what fuel progress.

Dr. Weil is a renowned Harvard trained medical doctor and botanist. He studies traditional and Eastern medicine, combining them in his practice. He's an extremely reputable scientist and does not pooh alternatives to the chemicals we like to poison ourselves with. There's a time and a place for both. Diet, or what we take in, is extremely important, from any angle.

Here are some of his own words:

"I would like more doctors to use plants in place of the strong and dangerous chemical drugs now in fashion. Here are some of the botanicals that I most frequently recommend."

http://www.drweil.com/drw/u/PAG00326/Herbs-Dr-Weil.html

I notice in his Vitamin library that he states, based on research, Vitamin C may help to combat certain cancers. Also that it may be useful in combating the common cold and in supporting the immune system.

"Why is vitamin C necessary?

Many do not know all of the facts on vitamin C, which helps to repair and regenerate tissues, protect against heart disease, aid in the absorption of iron, prevent scurvy, and decrease total and LDL ("bad") cholesterol and triglycerides. Research indicates that vitamin C may help protect against a variety of cancers by combating free radicals, and helping neutralize the effects of nitrites (preservatives found in some packaged foods that may cause cancer). Supplemental vitamin C may also lessen the duration and symptoms of a common cold; help delay or prevent cataracts; and support healthy immune function. "

I find this stuff fascinating and have personally benefited, as well. Dr. Weil is an extremely interesting medical professional and scientist that appears on PBS periodically. There are quite a few other extraordinary doctors pioneering forward that have made programs for PBS. Maybe PBS is bias towards integrative medicine? Dunno.

Here is a link that might be useful: Another link at Dr. Weil on use of Vitamins

I have to agree that I think there is some confusion here between inflammatory response and immune response. It is true, and as others have mentioned, long been known that the symptoms of a cold are the body response to ‘invasion’. Similar symptoms are the body response to allergies.

But having a strong immune system protects you from the invasions in the first place.

But if your immune system is too strong it can end up attacking your own body - autoimmune disease. Plus there is not evidence that any of that stuff that purports to boost your immune system actually works. Homeopathy is literally just water or sugar pills, but people spend millions a year on these quack products.

I ascribe to the natural theory of immunity boosting. Getting my vitamins from their purest sources...so vitamin C from oranges, not juice, but the fruit. Broccoli, carrots, etc as well as garlic. Gargle salt water and WASH HANDS FREQUENTLY.

I've got a compromised immune system, with the lymphedema I have, my lymphatic system does not flush out the invaders as most people do, so I'm more prone to infection...viral things have a tendency to stay and develop into bacterial infections. I've had strep infections and I'm just getting over a sinus/bronchial infection that most people shrug off in a matter of days while it's still just a cold.

I've found OTC remedies and immunity boosters just don't work for me.

I tend to somewhat disagree with the article also. I'm with pesky in regards to boosting your immune system naturally. Vitamin C is a good thing! Of course you can take too much of a good thing. I also disagree with the comments on homeopathy. Not that I am a follower, but I do believe many natural remedies CAN work. Just look at the indians and many of the methods they used. My great grandmother was part indian and she had a poultice for every ailment. Natural - and most times they worked. I'm all for that instead of taking medication over and over and especially the over use of antibiotics.

I have to ditto Les's comments also.

Interesting discussion.

tina
I don't use immunity boosters but do as Pesky mentioned along with eating well (I don't take vitamins), try to get enough sleep, try to take care of stress, exercise, get a yearly flu shot, etc. to keep myself the healthiest possible. I have in years past taken a probiotic during the worst of cold/flu season.

I'm not sure about the comment that your immune system being too strong causing an autoimmune disease. The definition for autoimmune disease is "a condition caused when an individual's immune system reacts against his or her own organs and tissues" and another definition mentioned the immune system going "awry", many definitions, but I saw nothing about the immune system being too strong. I also have to say that there are probably many studies that show some that some remedies do boost immune systems - such as vitamin C. Many doctors will recommend these things. MEDICAL doctors - not homeopaths.

I also think there's some confusion about what homeopathy is. That's a specific philosophy of medicine, created by a medical doctor who was researching/developing methods of curing illness. It's not simply using natural remedies or substances for medicinal purpose. I think, generally, all those little bottles and drops of juices don't get much respect, but poking around Dr. Weil's site, he does seem to think some of the treatments have proven effective. To my mind, the clinical researcher was probably on to something (which has survived over time) and I wouldn't disregard the idea if prescribed or when searching for a remedy. Linked below is a brief description of what 'homeopathy' is and where it originated.

Here is a link that might be useful: Homeopathy

I totally agree that food, whole food, is the best support and source of our vitamins and minerals, herbal benefits, etc., as opposed to a processed version. Some foods also lose some or all of their benefits and usefulness through cooking. It may be, however, that in some cases a more concentrate capsuled version is more useful or doable because you'd have to eat a pound of something to get enough for its effect. But I always do wonder that once they start messing with things like that, some of the beneficial properties might be lost. Garlique, for example, comes to mind. I don't think we understand things both at that level of detail or the synergistic nature of its whole form. So extracting what we think is 'the' active ingredient, to sell, might not be good enough. On the other hand, there are plenty of good and progressive doctors whose clinical practices and research has proved to them the benefit of the OTC supplement version.

There was a time when I wouldn't even take ibuproben (prostaglandin inhibitor), or processed vitamins. These days, I don't take vitamins daily but if I'm not eating or feeling well, I will. And now that I'm older, I take them more often to make sure my intake is rounded enough and my body has what it needs. A lot of nutrients are lost in our basic processed food diets. In moderation, I don't think it hurts. If I'm around someone who's sick or feel like I might be coming down with something, I'll eat garlic (raw), take some Vitamin C, zinc, echinacea (controversial in its effectiveness but I take it anyway), focus on healthier foods, lots of water, etc. Everyone's body is different, but this has worked for me.

Interestingly, I've noticed the effects of some foods without even knowing about their use up front, some long before I was interested in this stuff and before it was being promoted as it is today. I think that's how a lot of these things get discovered. I think Mother Nature has provided, in our foods, these natural substances that our bodies need and use to ward off disease (eg, the anti-cancer properties of antioxidants that we hear so much about today). It's all part of the system. Taking supplements, which can be overdone, can be messing with Mother Nature a bit, I think, but focusing on good rounded nutrition in terms of what has been learned about these food components, along with taking supportive supplements at times or for a specific chronic problem or disease, I don't think is voodoo medicine. We are what we eat, and Mother Nature knows this.

Thanks for clearing that up Spring - not sure what I was thinking of, but I guess it wasn't homeopathy. I was thinking more along natural remedies, etc.

tina

Homeopathic "remedies" are diluted to such an extent that there is literally no active ingredients left. I don't care what Dr. Weil thinks about them. They defy the laws of physics, and are worthless quackery.

More on homeopathy below

Here is a link that might be useful: Homeopathy information

Thanks, Terriks. I noticed some homeopathy remedies being sold at a local store for over $10. each. What a waste of money.

Take one drop of medicine and drop it into a swimming pool size body of water. Bottle and sell to suckers. Can you say placebo? It's the perfect example. It works because people think it works.

Well, if it works it really doesn't matter if it's a placebo effect or not.

I haven't tried or been around homeopathy to have any real opinion or experience with it. Diluted dandelion juice doesn't sound very impressive but apparently it's not that simple. If I were to try it, it would be in a controlled setting with a homeopathic doctor. I don't see it as being any different than all those allergy shots they injected me with years ago (small amounts of allergen, and an accepted medical practice). People in general don't seem to give it much credence for whatever reason. I do know an intelligent and educated woman who was thinking about trying a homeopathic doctor for her children's difficult allergies. And I find it interesting and valuable that Dr. Weil doesn't dismiss it. He's a research scientist and a conventionally trained practitioner. Obviously a highly intelligent and successful individual. He didn't get to where he is by being a quack.

I also think it's very ironic how people worry so much about the pesticides and other chemicals and such we ingest, yet think nothing of taking those tiny little balls of chemicals for this that or the other thing. And for something in such small quantity to be effective or to create the side effects that they do, it must be pretty potent stuff being thrown into our system. There are a lot of problems and side effects with drugs for a reason. Too often, even say twenty years later, they'll come back to tell us gee this wasn't as safe as we thought it was. Then there are the birth defects that can occur. I just don't get where people feel so safe ingesting all those chemical concoctions.

It's nothing new that alternatives to convention or new ideas that challenge main stream thinking get mocked and scorned, discredited and met with resistance. Some of the world's greatest discoveries and inventions started that way and their stories encourage new pioneers to continue to press forward. Personally, I don't understand why those things aren't met with more interest and enthusiasm, in the name of progress in whatever form or outcome, but rather with hostility and scorn. It does seem, however, that there's a great deal of growing interest and enthusiasm, even in the medical community, for gentler, more natural approaches to health problems. I think it's amazing the way they're controlling Type II Diabetes by diet alone now. Some of our nation's top hospitals are incorporating integrative medicine into their health care systems, and apparently even including a bit of homeopathy!

Autoimmune diseases are NOT the result of your immune system being ‘too strong’. They are the result of the body misreading a normally occurring protein in the human body as a pathogen, either in a particular organ or a type of tissue. People with autoimmune diseases like MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis often have weakened immune responses, in fact.

I stand corrected on the autoimmune diseases.

And I find it interesting and valuable that Dr. Weil doesn't dismiss it. He's a research scientist and a conventionally trained practitioner. Obviously a highly intelligent and successful individual. He didn't get to where he is by being a quack.

If he is truly a scientist then he shouldn't promote unproven, unscientific treatments. But, he does make a lot of money from his website and products, and he tells people what they want to hear.

What is it that people *want* to hear? I think when people find no benefit, they don't continue to buy in.

So, it seems you don't care for Dr. Weil or his beliefs and work. But I don't think he promotes unproven and unscientific treatments. He certainly doesn't practice recklessly or with abandon if that's how you see him. He's studied other cultures and systems of medicine, thousands of years old. He's been an MD for a very long time, using a combination of conventional and other methods he believes in. And he keeps up on the (worldwide) research studies that are being done to prove or disprove efficacy. Western medicine isn't 'it' in this world, as the only credible body of knowledge to treat patients, or to healthy living. Chemicals for everything and repetitious sometimes invasive procedures that often go nowhere or even cause harm. Some of it may be the best we've got to go with but that's not always the case. Or there may not be anything there that really works.

I was using Dr. Weil as an example because I've listened to him speak and he's a well-known and reputable doctor with a program. Someone people would be familiar with. And he makes good sense that resonates as true with a lot of people. If I'm looking for something, I know he's a good and qualified resource to check. Fact is, there are other conventional doctors, even university teaching hospitals, that utilize integrative/complementary medicine these days. Conventional doctors don't seem to agree on much, either. It's part science and part art, as they will tell you.

I'm not clear on what you're objecting to. It sounds like the whole idea of such a thing. Are you suggesting that all the interest in natural remedies or approaches to wellness be dismissed as hogwash? Because ingesting an herb like ginko or garlic or taking Vit C or zinc could not possibly be of benefit? Why? I can't understand the reasoning behind such a broad dismissive conclusion. I believe antibiotics started with an observation on mold. Discoveries happen like that all the time. Science is based on observation. It has to start somewhere.

Who would be interested in something that has actually shown no promise? Was based on absolutely nothing. Why would they bother to research or do trial studies on these things? And why would some MDs or hospitals adopt, recommend, or OK them in their treatment plans? Once that happens, it's because they feel comfortable with it, there's some data around to back it. They're science-based individuals and that's how they operate.

Meant to include this link.

Here is a link that might be useful: Ginkgo & Stroke Prevention

Here are a few more examples, for those who are interested in nature and with regards to there being no research or studies done on such things.

There's actually an abstract on NIH re positive outcome for a homeopathic treatment study:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16296912

.
Bright light therapy for Parkinsons, from NIH:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17516492

.
CoQ10 for Parkinsons, from NIH:
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/news_and_events/news_articles/pressrelease_parkinsons_coenzymeq10_101402.htm

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Manuka Honey - for MRSA & other uses in hospitals
http://www.suite101.com/content/manuka-honey-a-natural-healing-agent-a236421

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This archaic treatment has been revived and some hospitals have been using it for a while, behind closed doors:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-07-leeches-maggots_x.htm

.
Bee Venom Therapy, clinical trials underway at two hospitals, for MS and other diseases:
http://www.heartlandhealing.com/pages/archive/bee_venom_therapy/index.html
http://www.apitherapy.org/what-is-apitherapy/bee-venom-therapy/

I only clicked on the first study (which was simply reprinted by NIH), and what it amounts to is that people who knowingly and voluntarily took homeopathic remedies said they felt better. You would expect that to happen.

This sums up the concern about "integrated medicine," practiced by Dr. Weil, as explained by Barry Beyerstein:
There are a "number of social, psychological, and cognitive factors that can convince honest, intelligent, and well-educated people that scientifically-discredited [or untested] treatments have merit". The typical believer in untested or discredited medical treatments accepts uncritically the apparently clear messages of personal experience that such treatments are effective. To the uncritical thinker, many worthless or harmful treatments seem to "work" (the pragmatic fallacy). Such people are either unaware of or intentionally ignore the many perceptual and cognitive biases that deceive us into thinking there are causal relationships between quack treatments and feeling better or recovering from some illness or disease. They uncritically place "more faith in personal experience and intuition than on controlled, statistical studies."

I have no problem with remedies that are based on natural ingredients that are proven and have actual active ingredients in them. I think that there are probably many untapped "natural" resources that could eventually provide cures for many of our modern ailments. I do require proof that these remedies work - and that is not anecdotal "proof".

Unfortunately, homeopathic "remedies", by the very definition of homeopathy have absolutely no active ingredients in them. Even Dr. Weil says this about arnica:
Arnica is toxic if it gets inside the body. Never apply arnica in any form on broken skin or on an open wound. Never take arnica internally unless it's in the form of homeopathic pills that contain too little arnica to cause harm.
When Buying: Look for pure arnica extract, homeopathic pills with 30x dilution, or topical applications.

He knows that such a dilution cannot harm you because A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth

So I find any doctor who would promote an unproven, unscientific remedy to be suspect.

And you may say, where's the harm in taking these harmless remedies? The harm is when people believe in this stuff and don't get proper medical care, such as this couple who treated their infant daughter's eczema with homeopathic treatments

Here is a link that might be useful: How homeopathy (doesn't) work

terriks: I agree that homeopathy flies in the face of logic; but I have seen it work many times. My husband's family used it for many years and so have I used it on myself and my children in situations where the conventional medical doctors are perplexed and offer no solutions.

The most clear cut example I can provide is when I cut my finger several years ago. It was stitched up and when my doctor removed the stiches, some of the thread was left in place. While the wound was mostly healed it was always very sensitive, red and puffy. This went on for over a year with no improvement. Finally, my MIL gave me a homeopathic remedy (I forgot what), but it was basically used to bring forth foreign objects (like splinters) under the skin. Within one week, the area became aggravated (as is usually the case with homeopathic treatments, worse before it gets better), the skin started to peel away and to my amazement tiny threads started appearing on the surface which I pulled out with a tweezers. Once all the threads were removed, the wound fully healed--all w/in a week. Today there is barely a scar and it's not at all sensitive.

I've also used a combination of homeopathy and accupuncture to successfully treat food allergies for myself and DD. It's a method called NAET. I also used this method to treat my DD's recurrent UTIs--which were diagnosed by a urologist as bacterial persistence. His solution was to put my DD on prophilactic antibiotics for over a year; yet after 4-6 mos. of holistic remedies, including a combination of homepathy, accupuncture and Chinese herbs, she is UTI free for the past year.

While I will admit I don't quite understand why they work, I can attest that they do work in some situations and it is not quackery. Just as there are not miracle cures in convential medicine, the same is true with holistic methods. Most liekly, it will not cure a terminally ill person of cancer, but there are many ailments that can either be cured or improved through the correct application of holistic medicine including homeopathy. The real frustration is due to comments like the ones posted above that prevent insurance companies from covering these claims and so we have to pay out of pocket. Yet my total bill was only a fraction of the amount my insurance company paid for expensive tests done by my DD's urologist which in the end, did not provide a solution.

Just because a treatment or disorder is not recognized by the AMA does not mean it does not work or does not exist. Just as in conventional medicine, there are good doctors that can accurately diagnose a problem and ones who can't. The remedy only works if the problem is correctly diagnosed. If not, it's of little benefit and so won't work--whether conventional or holistic.

I don't usually show up on the conversations side but for some reason, did tonight. Try and tell my dog that homeopathic is placebo or quackery. Its worked on his bladder stones.

My experience with classic homeopathy started when I needed an alternative for my thyroid as all conventional medicine that I tried failed. I was unable to tolerate any form of thyroid gland. I tried Synthroid, Armour, Naturethroid. I read extensively about it and found a doctor who used synthroid in drops so that I could use just one watered down drop. I could not tolerate one drop. The tiniest amount of synthroid OR descicated thyroid made me feel thyrotoxic and drove my thyroid stimulating hormone down to hypo levels within only a couple of days on the meds. My finger nails were peeling off and a I had a host of other symptoms. My TSH without being on the hormone at one point, got up to 40. (VERY high). I was miserable. I had tried at that point with Western medicine for many years.

I contacted a classic homeopathist. At that time my dog was having blood in his urine upon emptying his bladder when he would mark. Dr. Alan was willing to advise me on my dog. He suggested a particular remedy. My dog had the remedy, and the blood ceased that day. He was symptom free for the next three months. He did need the remedy again, and had more results upon taking it.( It later came back here and there and right now is much better when he takes glucosomine, because that helps with the mucus on the lining of the bladder.)

Next I took my assigned remedy. With no other treatment, my TSH went from 40 down to about 5.9, then down to 3.9, then 2.9. It remained there for over a year, and when it went up a bit again, I went back to the doc and we tried another remedy or two. It was better, but not optimum, and so the doc and I agreed that would try Chinese medicine. I switched to an Asian doctor and am taking Chinese tea and getting results there. And as with valinsv, the least amount of money I spent on docs was for the homeopathic one.

I have also had full blown flu instantly leave once upon taking a homeopathic remedy. A lot of people find that hard to believe because it is true that the original substance is not in that vial or sugar pill. It is the essence of it or the energy, or vibration that is there. I would totally use Western medicine for certain things that it is good for, but I am not married to it at all. Pharma has a lot at stake and pays big money to disprove vitamin studies and show that vite e is "bad for you", etc. They have PR men that figure out how to promote diseases so that you will except the "cure" that they are selling.

My brother is a pathologist and does not believe in homeopathic, chiropractic, or most natural cures. He would not even try one chiropractic adjustment for his trigeminal neuralgia which had become excruciating. So he elected to have a risky surgery that went behind his brain. Thank God it was successful. But my chiropractor who practices Upper Cervical adjustments using a technique called Advanced Orthogonal, cured a patient of the excruciating pain associated with the ailment. The pain disappeared six weeks after the patient received his adjustment. My brother felt if would not work on him because he does not believe in that. However, when my mom fell on her face (86 years old) I took her to this chiro, and she is doing better than ever, and we put the walker away.

Here is a link that might be useful: How to brand a disease and sell a cure

I meant to say taking thyroid drove my levels into the hyper range, not hypo!

"Autoimmune diseases are NOT the result of your immune system being ‘too strong’. They are the result of the body misreading a normally occurring protein in the human body as a pathogen, either in a particular organ or a type of tissue. People with autoimmune diseases like MS and Rheumatoid Arthritis often have weakened immune responses, in fact."

From Wiki
Development of therapies

In both autoimmune and inflammatory diseases the condition arises through aberrant reactions of the human adaptive or innate immune systems. In autoimmunity, the patient’s immune system is activated against the body's own proteins. In inflammatory diseases, it is the overreaction of the immune system, and its subsequent downstream signaling (TNF, IFN, etc), which causes problems.