I have the bosch 500...

Hot is 125 degrees
Temp Boost is 150
and Sanitary is 155

Your question is somewhat misleading. How hot the wash temperature is depends on a couple of things.

1. What type of machine you are using and does it contain an onboard heater active in all HOT wash cycles?

2. The HOT tap water temperature set on the water heater.

In either case without an oboard heater active in all cycles, the water temperature will be no greater than what is set on the heater. Some of the newer TL mix the tap hot and cold, so in the end a HOT wash is not what it should be. My tank outputs @ 140F so regardless of which machine I use, the Duet with temp assist or my TL, my water is hot. The duet doesn't not downmix the hot water.

Puzzlefan, which F&P washer do you have? There is a way to "trick" it into filling with hot water. Personally, I have a 2002 Frigidaire front loader. Fortunatley, my hot water isn't limted to a certain high temp. I can fill it with 155 degree water from my hot water heater if I want. This is a nother reason why I prefer a front loader with a supplemental heate. I detest top loaders which have "dumbed-down" water temps to improve energy ratings. Front loaders with heater cna get hot water of 120-130 (the max being from a Whirlpool produced product) and with Sanitary cycles from 153-170 degrees, that works well for me.

I have Duet 9400

Fully loaded with 130F water entering from the first drop, "hot" wash becomes 100-105. (heat loss from mass of drum and clothes) That's my idea of "warm" not "hot".

With "whitest whites" setting, machine boosts to 127 -- which I use a lot. This is my idea of "hot".

"Sanitary" boosts to 157 -- which I seldom use.

Whirlpool says the boost temps are +/- 5F

I have an Asko w/ built-in heater. I rarely wash anything below 105, which is very warm, and most colors get 120. Whites w/ elastic get 160 and kitchen towels get 175 or 205 depending on how soiled they are. Washer fills only with cold water and heats to the required temps. Perfect results every time, no mold or mildew or other odd build-up, couldn't be happier.

On our Danby you set your desired temp and the on-board heater does the rest. For less hot temps it mixes hot and cold, but still uses the on-board heater. We usually set it at 140F for a hot wash although it can go much higher (and much longer cycle times).

Some local codes require a tempering valve on a hot water heater so it can't be set too high. If you don't have a tempering valve, it can be set anywhere you like but the 120F or so range is considered a safe maximum temperature for a DHW tank, and it will still mix down to a good quantity of hot water.

How do you all know what temps your machines get the water to in various cycles? I have the Kenmore HE2t (same as the Duet Sport 8500) and I have no idea (short of testing the temp myself during the cycle, but I don't even know how I would do that, since the door is locked once the wash starts). I believe my hot water heater is set to 140 degrees, but the hot water heater is quite a distance from the washer.

I got my info from the magnet of washer guidelines that is on the front of my washer... plus it's in the manual...

Mine can go up to 95*C, which is the standard for all washers here in the UK. I rarely use 95*C though, I find it unnecessary and does no better at sanitising or cleaning than 60*C, or 75*C at a push.

I generally use 60*C for towels and bedding, 50*C for whites, and 40*C for colours, darks and jeans, sometimes even 30*C. Excessive use of 50*C+ temperatures is a waste of energy especially on colours and darks (not to mention the higher temperatures contribute to fading), and 95*C is only used for teatowels in this household but only due to it being a habit, I'm sure they will be cleaned and sanitised thoroughly on a 60*C wash.

Some people argue that higher tempertaures are necessary for underwear, but from washing my dark underwear with darks at 40*C and white underwear with whites at 50*C combined with a decent detergent I haven't yet caught any illnesses from "only" washing my underwear at lower temperatures, neither has anybody else I know.

Jon

I haven't yet caught any illnesses from "only" washing my underwear at lower temperatures

Yet! (I assume you've never had an upset stomach, which would be the first symptom of what you might get from a coliform infection. If you have had such symptoms, then you don't really *know* it isn't from your laundry now, do you?)

BTW, 50C is not what we in the US would call "lower temperatures"...most US machines cannot get that hot!

neither has anybody else I know.

Your friends have perfect health as well?

These are exactly the same arguments people used to make about cigarettes. The effect of laundry praxis on health is well-documented, but it is a statistical phenomenon, and of course not as bad as in the days of communal laundry, when clothing served as a vector for cholera and typhoid. I don't see any downside to washing clothing (especially personal linens and undergarments) at temperatures that will ensure cleanliness, or with additives like bleach or phenolics that will do the same at lower temperatures.

Let me put it this way. Suppose you go into a French restaurant and order steak tartare. Wouldn't you hope that the chef who handles your food has (a) washed his hands, and (b) used the hot water instead of cold to do so? - DR

The only real illness I've had recently is tonsillitis, and the only time I've had stomachaches and been sick in the past few years is after I've had one too many or a wild house party. So, I wouldn't relate any of my past illnesses to washing my *dark* underwear at 40*C. Besides, I don't rub underwear in my face nor do I eat off it, plus it is "infected" as soon as clean underwear is put on so there really isn't much point in trying to sanitise underwear. And besides, I think underwear that is still black is far more attractive than underwear where colour has been washed out due to washing at high temperature and/or bleaching.

I agree on washing towels at high temperatures, to prevent them from smelling musty, and also on washing bedding at high temperatures to kill dustmites. Anything else really doesn't need to be washed at excess temperatures, unless one is germ-phobic which is a dangerous position to be in.

The French restaurant argument is irrelevant, as it is a completely different situation to do with food, which in my book at least doesn't involve my underwear!

Jon

My manual says the temperatures are "super hot" and "hot" -- it doesn't say what temperatures those equate to.

My Fisher & Paykel IWL12 is factory set for the temperatures outlined below, controlled by a sensor in the water valves. Whether the water flowing in actually reaches those temperature depends on the setting of the household water heater. If the incoming hot water flow is higher than the target, the machine mixes cold as needed. If the incoming hot water flow is too much lower, the machine will beep a fault code.

Cold = cold faucet temperature
Cold+ = no less than 16°C (approx 60°F)
Warm/Cold = 95°F (35°C)
Warm = 115°F (46°C)
Warm/Hot = 125°F (52°C)
Hot = hot faucet temperature

A typical warm fill results in about 105°F in the tub after the clothes and washer parts absorb some of the heat.

My water heater maxes-out at 140°F, and I can get 140°F flowing into the washer at Hot if that's the temperature set on the water heater.

The Danby has an on-board heater that you can set at Cold or temperatures ranging from 80 to 200 degrees. Elastic gets ruined at 200 degrees, and it is a bit of a risk at 180 degrees. The high temperatures really get whites white and grease stains out, however.

germ-phobic which is a dangerous position to be in

This reminds me of the UK cookbooks from the 1950s that warned against the dangers of undercooking vegetables:-)

It is not germophobic to pay attention to the science surrounding laundry, it is good sense. Now, I agree that there are many aspects of laundry praxis other than heat that can eliminate problems: you can wash undergarments separately from, say, face cloths, you can do multiple (3-4) rinses with spins between them, you can wash towels etc on higher heat and/or with chlorine bleach or phenolics, and so on. Many of these things you yourself already do.

However, for most in the US "excessive temperature" includes 50C (and possibly 40C, since so many tags say "cold wash only"), and most are not as careful about sorting as you are, and people don't want to wash their colorful towels on anything warmer than "warm", and most conventional TLs are capable of at most one barely-adequate rinse. The popularity, in the US, of big washing machines is evidence of our essential laziness - rather than sorting our laundry into numerous small piles, and washing every day, we like to sort minimally (eg, whites from colors) and just jam everything in when the pile gets high enough.

As a result, studies by microbiologists indicate that the average American washing machine is teeming with germs, and more recent studies suggest that there is at least a correlational link to acual illness (see Larson, Lin, and Gomez-Pichardo (2004) Predictors of Infectious Disease Symptoms in Inner City Households. Nursing Research, 53, 190 - 197, and other references cited there).

The "lazy" ways to assure a germ-free laundry is to use an additive like LCB, or to use adequate heat. The difficult way is to buy a multiple rinse machine, and to sort carefully, and to tailor the cycle and heat and chemicals to the particular type of load. This is what you do, and frankly what I do as well, but when you post that excessive heat is not necessary for most loads, maybe the responsible thing to do is to carefully enumerate all the other fiddly procedures that you are implicitly substituting for the heat and bleach. - DR

I can admit to laziness when doing laundry. Even with minumal sorting I wash about 20 loads a week. I have to admit that it has been over 5 years since I washed anything other than towels and bedding in hot water. Whites include any white clothing, includeing underwear and socks. Colored underwear go in whatever load of cloths they match. I do wash bath towels on their own on hot with a double rinse, kitchen towels and cloths in a seperate wash on hot with double rinse, and bedding on hot with a double rinse. I never use bleach because of exzema (spelling?) and multiple allergies. That is also the reason for the double rinses. I can honestly say that my family has no history of illnesses that could have resulted from this. In fact, just about everyone I know thinks my family is disgustingly healthy, they actually are shocked when one of us catches a cold. I think this can be attributed to good hand washing (plain old dove bar soap, no antibacterial stuff)and getting plenty of fresh air (as fresh as it gets herenear a major city)every day. If someone in the family caught something awflu that could be passed to other family members, then I would wash their cloths seperatly in hot, but I don't think it is generally needed.

It would be nice to have a washer with temp settings that are controllable by the user. Unless the manual is accurate on front loaders, it would be almost impossible to determine the wash water temp. I know my F & P uses cold water on the hot settings. It fills partially with hot water (faucet setting) agitates, and then would continue the fill up with cold water. So I do it manually which is a pain. I have a sink/hose next to the washer.

The best answer to this question is to actually measure your wash water temperature during a pump-out cycle. The Bosch 500 has 5 temp options: Cold (60F)-Warm (95)-Hot (125F)-Boost (150F) and Sanitary (167F to 174F for 3 minutes). I have not yet measured my temps to confirm. These options are only possible with machines having tub heaters. The next generation of FL machines will probably only have a single (cold) water inlet as improvements to the tub heater will make a hot supply unnecessary. This will reduce manufacturing/materials costs as well.

As far as giving the user more control over water temp, the average user would be confused by such things. Simpler is better for the masses.

I find this thread somewhat amusing. It's only domestic machines that carry the cold/warm/hot labels without any further explanation. The reason for this is two-fold: 1) manufacturers believe US consumers don't want this information; and 2) it lets manufacturers off the hook if their components don't reach or maintain the advertised temperature.

Notice that the Euro machines allow lots of control, have on-board heaters, and heat to specific temperatures that are either mentioned in the manual or show right on the display. I think this is generally due to different consumer attitudes and demands overseas, and it played a huge role in my purchasing an Asko set.

After educating myself about laundry, you couldn't pay me to buy a machine with just cold/warm/hot, lacking an on-board heater or specific temperature settings. Most domestic machines max out at tap hot, which CAN reach 120 degrees but usually doesn't unless you have your water heater cranked up and have a short run to the washer. Then the water loses heat because it hits a cold drum, and continues to lose heat throughout the wash. The water you end up with by the time the machine drains is quite a bit lower in temperature than it was at the beginning.

I rarely go below 120 degrees, except for delicate items. All my colors are washed at 120 degrees -- the MAX HOT of most domestic machines. I can't imagine not having the option to go to 160 or higher, and I will never use those "cold water" detergent formulas after my experiences with Tide Coldwater and reading all the posts on the forum about mold, biofilm, etc. My machine has been squeaky clean going on 4 years. I've run an empty cleaning cycle with dishwashing powder only twice in those 4 years.

My feeling is that all the chemicals we are exposed to have a cumulative effect on our bodies, so minimizing exposure whenever possible is a good thing. Speaking only for myself, I find it a better option to use laundry detergents with fewer chemicals, but wash at higher temperatures to achieve the same results, as cold/warm water washing with stronger detergents that may not rinse completely out of my clothing. But that's just me.

I find this thread somewhat amusing. It's only domestic machines that carry the cold/warm/hot labels without any further explanation.

I'm not sure this is really true: the Askos do have actual temps in the control panel, but I think many of the other German machines (and most of the Asian machines) do not have the temps on the panel (though of course they are often available in the manual or elsewhere).

Incidentally, I'm sure I have a reputation on this forum as a loonie when it comes to laundry sanitation - I wasn't like this until I stumbled across Nancy Tomes's nice book on the history and social impact of the germ theory, and then started dipping into the medical and public health peer-reviewed literature (it helps having full access to medline at the office). In any event, a good machine + a bit of care and practice makes laundry as easy as it was in the ignorant old days, but healthier, so why not? - DR

I'm like Aquarius in that I don't eat off of my underwear either. Neither do I suck on my towels or brush my teeth with my t-shirts.

I am 42 years old and I have never been sick due to my clothes being washed in warm or cold water. Never. Even when I've washed and used towels previously used by my children when they were sick. No one else in my home has allergies or unexplained GI upset due to inadequately washed underpants. The whole thing seems ridiculous IMO. One can find a study to back up how completely unsanitary our entire world is. The fact is that humans are living in an environment teeming with bacteria and no matter where you go looking for it, you're going to find it.

I will sometimes wash whites in hot water depending on what garments are in there. I have no idea at what temperature the water coming into the washer is. On rare occasions I use bleach in my hot cycles. I would imagine that the bleach does a whole lot more to sanitize than trying to get my washer to spray out boiling hot water.

When scientists can link the next world pandemic to washing in cold water then I'll invest two grand in a washer that boils my underwear.

Dross, you're probably right in that washing in a quality detergent and using cycles with 3 rinses helps to keep my laundry relatively hygienic, though I do use colour detergent on my darks which does not contain bleaching agents - as I said, washed-out black boxers just aren't sexy :-). In terms of sorting, I generally only have 4 loads of clothing - whites, colours, darks and denim, and then I wash bedding and towels in their own separate loads. However this is normal for me, and is what I've been taught by my mum and grandmother which also isn't that different to the general way in how we wash here as a country. I guess it just shows the differences in culture! However I still maintain that high temperatures are somewhat hyped up, and I don't nor ever will worry about catching germs or diseases off of laundry... after all I am probably exposed to more (potentially lethal) germs once I step outside my front door and in the whole scheme of things a small amount of germs on underwear isn't really much. Besides, without wishing to sound crude, I'm sure that each one of us has had fun behind closed doors which has exposed us to far more nasties :-).

Sshriva - as I've mentioned in another thread I think it's a shame that all the more skin- and/or environmentally-friendly detergents available here, at least, do jack all in terms of anything that's more than lightly soiled. It's probably my cynical mind, but I feel that if something's been taken out of a detergent for it to have few chemicals in the first place, then laundry just isn't going to be as clean. It's nice that you've been able to find a detergent whcih can do this, though, and it's about time a similar product is brought out here in the UK. I try to be as environmentally friendly as possible, however for me cleaning is still the top priority with detergent so as I said it would be nice if someone offered such a product here.

Take care both,

Jon