When it comes to family and friends, I can say with all certainty, no, I don't lie to them or even stretch the truth. I'm not a good liar anyways but with them, I have no need to and would feel like an a*ss if I did.

With business situations though, once in a blue moon I will stretch the truth to help accommodate my schedule but it's even very rare that I do that, certainly not every day, not even every week or month.

I can't remember the last time I did it, but I do tell white lies. Sometimes it's better to tell a white lie rather than give an honest opinion when you know it would hurt someone. If we didn't, then I don't think anyone would like us. lol.

Did the sermon include white lies?

I try very hard not to. It is very hard to believe someone who has a eputation of stretching the truth.
Sometimes you are better off keeping quiet, rather than give an honest opinion that might hurt or offend someone.
This has been a topic in many magazines, and one thing I remember is that people who don't think they lie, really do and more than they thought.
As Vicki noted she is now being conscious of what she says and may be surprised.

This is a fascinating topic.

I am a non-liar and, as I figured out many years later, married into a family of liars. The ease with which they throw off untruths is still shocking and amazing to me. This personality trait in my ex-husband was part of my reasons for our divorce.

My ex-MIL appears to be in the middle stages of dementia, and we can't tell where the knowing lies stop and the delusions begin. She comes up with the wildest stories, and I doubt she knows whether they are true or not. And because of her short term memory loss, if you ask her to repeat the story five minutes later, she will have no idea what she said.

How funny! Our pastor touched on lies in his sermon yesterday also!

I agree with Ellendi. I don't intentionally lie, but perhaps I also need to be more conscious of what I say! I have been guilty of white lies, but try not to do that also. I agree with keeping quiet rather than sometimes giving an (honest) opinion.

I also think that different sorts of lies tell different stories about a person's character. As Oak suggests, sometimes a lie is the kindest action to take, and it speaks more positively about the person who chooses to go that route, imo.

I think I do lie at times, but never to "show off" or claim credit for something I didn't do or don't have, though a friend suggested I do just that the other day. (We were speaking about an obnoxious show-off in my life and my friend said, "Just tell her you have---," which I don't have! I couldn't do it!).

A flag has gone up just recently due to lies a new person in my life has told. She told one person we both know an opposite version of 4 different stories she told me. Well, I conclude, she's lying to somebody! Who, of course, I don't know. These were all mundane things. No scandal to "cover up" or anything like that. When someone lies repeatedly about really benign matters, it makes me wonder.

Curious topic! I can't imagine there's anyone who has not, at one time or another, told a lie. Whether we make it a habit is something else entirely. And here's a question for you: Is it lying if you neglect full disclosure? For example, if your husband asks, "What did you buy when you were out shopping today?" - and you rattle off the purse and the shoes and the dress, but "neglect" to say anything about the perfume and the earrings, did you, technically, lie? Because that is what you bought ... just not the full list of what you bought. Does intent to conceal matter? I see lots of gray areas.

Yes, there are definitely lies of omission.

I can't think of any circumstance where I wouldn't want to know the truth. Yes, maybe in regards to something with little importance I think it's kinder to keep quiet than to be mean or BRUTALLY honest, but even in those cases there are nice ways to still say something and still be honest about it.

When someone lies, they risk getting caught and having that situation branded onto them for as long as the person who caught him/her can remember, (not to mention all the people he/she tells about it as well) I value that the people in my life know they can trust me too much to risk that. I also think most anyone with a good conscious would be fully aware if they were being less than honest, wouldn't any of you really know when you're not being truthful? I'm also not sure I understand this need to monitor what you say to see if you're actually lying, IMHO a basically honest person would know immediately, I know I would.

Besides, I can pretty much have whatever I want, I really have no need to omit anything I buy or do. Maybe it's the fact that the responses we offer to one of us being honest (even if we don't agree) is always positive but I've never caught my husband in a lie, and he's never caught me in one either. Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?

Never deliberately. I'd be lying if I said I never told a lie. I consider myself honest but I'm human, I'm sure it's happened to some degree.

Lies of omission? - probably at times. White lies to spare feelings? -yes, I just had a birthday and received gifts I didn't want. I said thank you, I can use this.

Growing up, about the worst thing we could do was lie to my Mum. I'm sure we were all guilty of lies of omission or little white lies but blatant lying was absolutely not tolerated. Neighbor kids were banned from our house & yard if they were caught in a lie.

Speaking of lies of omission: my friend's teen was leaving the house for a sleep over at a girlfriend's. My friend asked "who will be there?". Teen replied "girl a and b and c". I bit my tongue because I wanted to ask "it that all?" or "and who else?". Yes, she did answer who would be there but I think she deliberately didn't volunteer any additional names, if there were any, such as "boy x & y & z". Since I'm not the parent I kept my questions to myself, in part because I'm not the parent but also because I wanted to see if my friend was going to do any follow-up questions.

She did not. She was satisfied with "girl a & b & c". Yes, she does know her kid much better than I do. I watch many friends who think they know everything about their kids, because they micromanage them, and don't remember how much stuff we didn't tell our parents when we were that age. Most of it was probably inconsequential, the same as my friend's teen, but the fact that the parents think they know everything surprises me.

Because lying is so foreign to me, I'm curious about families like graywing's ex, or people who do the big, deliberate lies. Do they admit to lying when caught? Do they think it's natural and everybody does it? Don't they feel betrayed or let down when they catch someone else in lie?

OK -- everybody with a driver's license pull it out now. When you got it, did you lie about your weight?

(I'm also curious, Vicki, what 2 lies you caught your husband in! And did you call him on it?!)

Do I lie? Of course, at times. I am probably most guilty of lies of omission but those are generally more for the benefit of say hubby who really does not want to know say about the extra purchases.

I also work diligently to keep my mouth shut and be tactful. Part of this is in an effort to educate people too. Some questions you really should not ask unless you are sure you can handle the answer. Like my sister who asks if her legs look good in her far too short shorts. The truth is no, they do not, she has very large thighs. Ny response has to be I will not answer that question, if you are unsure, look in the mirror.

Interestingly, I do have several family members who are/were liars. A different sister was particularly bad. She told many, many stories growing up to gain attention. Now as an adult every single thing she says has to be taken with a grain of salt. I never know if she is telling the truth about the health of her children, work or whatever. It is rather tiring but was definitely educational as I learned I never wanted that to be me.

Hhireno~ "I'm curious about families like graywing's ex, or people who do the big, deliberate lies." And I'm curious about people who do the repeated, deliberate, "nothing" sort of lies. I mean, although I find it pathetic and sad, I guess I "get" *show-off* lies. Lies about where one went to school, how much something cost, places they've vacationed, praise they've received (You know, every person who walks through my door tells me my house looks like it should be in a magazine!) etc.

But lying about where your husband, who is out of town, is? Telling person #1 "Oh, Dick is in Kalamazoo for a couple of weeks" and the same evening telling person #2 "Well, you know Dick is in San Diego for the next two weeks." What? To person #1: "I have no plans to do any yard work this year. I am concentrating on the inside of the house." A day later, to person #2: " I have lots of plans for the yard. I really want to make it look as good as possible, as soon as possible." Really? Do ya know what I mean, jelly bean?

I try to be as honest as I can while being cognizant that I must honor my intent to create a nurturing response. However, I will not sugarcoat any truth when I sense that the other person is creating a harmful environment for themselves or others. Then it becomes a tightrope whether to refrain from pointing out foibles and keep my moral outrage to myself or try to elicit a more loving response from another.

Case in point: youngish mother -- mid-30s --- driving with her 4 and 2 year old children in the back seat on her way to "unload" her children off on her in-laws for one week. She stops her car to chit chat with me and proceeds with a tirade about how awful her MIL is. Her children are listening while she is telling me how happy she is to get rid of them and how horrible their grandparents are. I could have just "lied" by saying nothing (sin of omission). Instead, I politely reminded her that her children were listening even though I noticed that she immediately put her defenses up and said her MIL deserved every bit of her criticism. Blah, blah blah.

I'm at the age where I see the ripple effects of all negative energy and try not to contribute to it as best I can. However, I will not simply overlook an opportunity to as kindly as possible remind people if they bring their junk to me that moral relativism has no place in a loving, kind response in our journey. OTH, I may not be brutally honest if someone makes a sincere effort to contribute but what they produce is simply not in keeping with my taste.

I tried to reply "No." but I couldn't post the message. Is GW trying to tell me something?

If someone asked me if I like their new hairstyle that they simply adore, and I can't stand it, you bet I'd lie over that. Hurting someone's feelings by being honest or "not saying anything" is just plain mean. Silence speaks volumes.

Absolutely. Big, white, small, by omission . . .

The human condition requires us to lie. I don't have any set rules for when and how I lie but I would like to think that as a moral and honest person (can you be defined as an honest person even if you lie?) my motives are for the good. Not to brag, not to hurt, not to take advantage of a person's good nature, etc.

I lie to save hurt feelings, to prevent confrontation, to gain business advantage, to protect my loved ones . . .

I know a few people who are compulsive liars. I'm not angry when I know I'm being lied to because they are only hurting themselves. I think it must be a kind of coping mechanism or a way to protect themselves by not ever revealing their true selves.

DH and I have had discussions about this and agreed that we will always have each other's best interests in mind when lying to one another. It's a very disconcerting idea, giving your partner permission to lie to you but I trust him implicitly no matter what he feels the same for me.

To be honest, I try not to lie and yet I think I do sometimes, and it bothers me. Nothing big you understand, just a slight twist to the truth. Usually to keep from hurting someones feelings. And yet, I beg people to be honest with me about my hair, my dress, and so forth.

Years ago, I heard Dr. Billy Graham speak and he was wonderful. He said, a baby can't talk or walk but he can lie. Did you eat that M&M little baby Johnny? Baby Johnny can't talk but he can shake his head back and forth to say NO.

Sometimes I lie for reasons such as Oakley mentioned but mostly with people I don't know well. Sometimes I can't stand the outfits DD wears and I tell her so. (She loves vintage caftans and I think they are horrid!)

The fact is, I think lightening would strike me dead if I told a lie. That keeps me pretty darned honest.

This is very interesting. I think there is a big difference between socially necessary "white lies", and hurtful, deceptive, destructive lies.

If you read the etiquette columns in the papers, then you can understand that being gracious and well mannered makes getting along easier and saves a lot of hurt feelings about inconsequential matters. So saying that dinner was delicious when it was wasn't is not a lie, it is you being grateful for someone taking the time to serve you a meal. It's just good manners.

But being deceptive or creating a false (exaggerated) impression of the truth is lying. Stating something as a fact to cover your tracks, when the truth is that you are doing something you ought not be doing, well that's lying. Not telling the truth when it will prevent future consequences that are dangerous or hurtful is lying. Our news is full of these stories, from cheating spouses, to Bernie Madoff, to pedophile scandals.

But, on the other side, asking personal questions about things that are none of your business is rude and can catch people off-guard. Maybe leading them to lie to you. This is the tricky area. Because you may know you are being lied to, but not know why. You may be getting a cover story because the truth is not something they want to share. This can happen when you ask a seemingly innocent question, not knowing that you are treading a hot topic.

What if you asked where your friend's husband is, and she says he's in San Diego. Maybe he is in a detox facility, or doing community service due to a law infraction, or getting out of town medical treatment, or visiting a child from a marriage you know nothing about, or 100 other things that your friend may not want to discuss at the moment.

Your friend may be lying because it's a polite thing to do, or she may lie to not get in trouble or to get out of doing things she should. Then I think you need to look at behavior patterns and see how they are over time.

Yes, I do lie, but I am not a liar. My ex was a liar...he lied about EVERYTHING, even non-consequential things.

But I do lie. For example the other day some folks of a particular religion that come to your door rang the bell at my DD & SIL's house while I was there. I answered the door and told the gentlemen that my SIL was not available and I was not able to speak with them as I was in the middle of a task. Lie? Yes. Did I feel bad? No. I will lie to get out of an unsolicited contact.

I lied to my children when they were young by telling them that puppies would pop if you fed them too much. I tried reasoning with them about giving the dog treats to no avail. I finally had to lie to get them to realize there would be a bad consequence to them letting the dog eat off their plates. I DO feel bad about that lie, because they told me later when they were grown that they were afraid to feed the dog because he might explode if they did.

I tried not lying to my MIL about the stupid mug, and you know where THAT got me! So I have found that I can live with a degree of lying, when it's not going to cause harm to another person. In cases where I am uncomfortable about stating my feelings or opinion, I'll deflect or keep my response short.

I see absolutely no value in lying about the obvious (I didn't leave the ice cream container on the counter says my husband when it's just the two of us living here), the attempt to better ones self (Oh I just ran 5 miles last night says my former SIL who can't even walk to the mail box without huffing and puffing). Those are the stupid ones. Of course, the lie about working over time while out with another woman (my ex) or being a witness to a robbery and being held for questioning by the police to explain his absence for 4 hours while actually being out with another woman (my ex, again) are dirty, rotten lies.

Yes!
Often.
Proudly.

" that was delicious"...hostess happy.
" what a cutie" ...........mommy beams
" what a thoughtful gift, I love it!".....friend is happy.
" no, it's really no trouble" ..............friend in need relieved.
" darn! I'd love to come, but...".
Well, you get the gist.
For me it's all about spreading a little happiness, and I do it often and with ease.
Oddly, though, I am an awful liar in all other areas. Uncomfortable , and so rarely do.
Marti

I must say that I have never told a lie in my entire life!!!

To those who don't lie, or don't lie deliberately, consider the stories we tell our children regarding the existence of 'Santa' or the 'Tooth Fairy'. Isn't that lying? I am curious about your thoughts on that.

And yes....I lie occasionally to spare feelings, I think most people call it being tactful. LOL. I would never lie to gain anything or to hurt someone. That is just wrong.

I don't even consider the situations that martinca listed to be lies. They are social conventions - commonly adhered to practices between members of society.

Oh Pesky - I had to laugh at the puppies popping!!! Thanks for the morning laugh!!! LOL

tina

When I first saw this thread I thought that the overwhelming response would be "of course I lie". I thought that just about everyone told small "white lies" on a regular basis to spare other's feelings, smooth things over, etc. I'm quite surprised that so many say that they never lie.

I don't think it's surprising at all. I think that as with most things we each have our own compass as to what constitutes a lie, when it's acceptable and when it's not. Some of the examples provided in some of the posts, I wouldn't have even considered a lie even though I would probably find a way to say something in response without lying.

In regards to Santa and the Fairies, I don't in anyway see that as lying. To me that's just part of being a kid and they deserve the fun of the imagination those tales bring with them.

"In regards to Santa and the Fairies, I don't in anyway see that as lying."

Interesting discussion... I absolutely regard the above as lying. Just because they are children doesn't make it not a lie. And I'm not saying there is anything inherently wrong with it, but I have never lied to my children about Santa, the Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy or any of the other childhood constructs that are peculiar to western civilization.

I tell white lies like just about everybody else. When people say they don't lie, what is their response when someone asks, "How are you today?" Do you stop and think to assess how you REALLY are, or do you just respond politely (lying) and say, "I'm fine, how are you?"

For years I would actually give people who asked me that question a numerical value on a scale of 1 to 10. Some were intrigued and wanted to know what a 4.29 meant in my world. Most were sorry they'd asked, but they did get the truth.

I've never lied to my kids about Santa and the Tooth Fairy. I tell them they exist and to this day they believe me, and now they tell the grands they exist too. Honest to God, I've never told my kids there wasn't a Santa. Because there is. :)

The white lies Martinca listed are exactly the kind that easily rolls off my tongue. lol.

You're right KSWL, and I'm enjoying the different views. I have to agree with Lukki on the Santa Clause, etc. outlook though. Of course, I don't have children, so that's a little different. I've never pushed that Santa is REAL, but part of the spirit of Christmas. And for most parents, there is a time they feel is right to explain all that to their kids.

Good point on how are you today, but as an optimistic person, most days I am at least fine and usually better! I'm not one to share my complaints with others. I generally realize that there are those so much worse. If I'm having a bad day I generally brush it off and say something like it's a beautiful day, or it's a typical Monday, etc. which is not a lie, just shifts the focus away from me. Cuz you are right - most are sorry they asked, especially if they receive a negative answer or a list of complaints!

There are ways around answers to still be honest but not hurt someone's feelings. You CAN usually find something nice to say. A friend might say "do you like this outfit", and I might say, that's a beautiful color, or the color looks good on you, etc. while I don't have to say that those pants look dreadful on her LOL. Or I might say, I think you'd look great in a long skirt (vs. the short one she's asking about). I don't take that as lying. As someone said, we think of what constitutes a lie differently.

My husband is one of the most honest people I know. I know that I can trust him without fail and that, especially in a marriage, is absolutely necessary to me.

We could go on and on with this topic!!

tina

I don't consider letting children believe in fairy tales lying. You're entitled to your opinion(s) but I personally think it's silly to include that into a lying category and have never felt an ounce of guilt or remorse about allowing my daughter to have that experience.

I tell white lies like just about everybody else. When people say they don't lie, what is their response when someone asks, "How are you today?" Do you stop and think to assess how you REALLY are, or do you just respond politely (lying) and say, "I'm fine, how are you?"

No assessing necessary, I pretty much know how I am on any given day and when I'm not doing so well I respond with

I've been better, but thanks for asking.

I've had better days, but thanks for asking.

I've been a bit ill lately, but thanks for asking.

It doesn't take much to find a way to be honest and still avoid making someone else uncomfortable. IMHO, opting to tell a white lie to avoid the truth is sometimes just the easier way out. What's wrong with just being honest? Being honest doesn't ALWAYS have to equate with being hurtful.

When I don't like a food that someone makes, I just say the truth, "I'm sorry, I have very finicky eating habits and don't care for very many new things" VERY TRUE

When I don't care for anything in specific, I include both a positive and negative in my statement, it's nice but just not to my taste, or I love the color but the style of that doesn't look comfortable to me. Whatever it is, whether I like it or not, I can always find a positive about it.

As I said, lukkiirish, I DO NOT think it inherently wrong to tell kids about fairy tales and the like, but I think it would be hard to make a case for that being "truth."

Kellyeng, & Martinca, I loved your posts! You gave us the unvarnished truth, and you made me smile.

The most surprising, shocking, unbelievable thing I've read on this thread so far, is that Olychick is always running late! I am amazed Oly! I thought you were the kind that always got a gold star for promptness! LOL! (Actually, I'm kind of relieved! This means you're not PERFECT!)

Well, I guess we can agree to disagree, I don't think it has anything whatsoever with being truthful or not. I just don't equate that situation with that of lying.

Uh oh, somebody's gonna have to break out the dictionary!

The whole, "I'm fine" can mean my soul is fine but life is crappy right now. I don't have to define fine.
I try not to lie and am convicted when I do. It's funny but a friend and I were talking about this recently as she was mortified about a lie that "popped out" when talking to her husband. We agreed it's easy to not lie about things that aren't part of our core but when confronted ( and at unexpected moments) about something deeply important to us, we might lie.
In her case, her dh wanted to know how money she had saved. As he is a compulsive spender and she pays the bills, she lied.
She later admitted to her dh she lied, they talked, and everything was fine.

I think the reasons people lie and the subsequent behavior are more important than the lie itself.

Kelley, i was thinking the very same thing--- that how people define terms is as important as what they think about them. :-)

I normally follow "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" but there are occasions when asked a question that I don't want to hurt feelings. I guess that's when a white lie will come in to play. It all depends on the person who is asking.

I don't lie to my DH though, even white ones. He knows me so well and it's just as easy to be honest with him. There is a great freedom in being totally honest with someone.

I'm the friend to call if you really want to know if that dress makes your a$$ look fat. I will lie if you ask me if I think you are crazy. If you ask you already know the answer.

"I think the reasons people lie and the subsequent behavior are more important than the lie itself." That's how I see it, Bumblebeez. In a nutshell, life is complicated. "One size fits all" is a fabulous concept, but I seldom see it really work. "All lies are horrendous" does not fit for me. Some lies simply have no ill will, selfishness or evil behind them. On the contrary, a lie can be the most kind, humane, selfless response one can give. On the other hand, even if no ill-will is intended, if a person is lying frequently and "for sport," I think there is a character issue at hand. Again, what's behind it?

The scariest people who lie are the ones who you can see on their face that they are justifying as they go. By the time they are finished they have already convinced themselves what they say is true. There is no entry unless you agree to the fantasy they have created. If you try and confront them with the fabrication you have to go through the attic where the dragons live. You get nowhere and just see evil.
There are many kinds of liars but those kinds are the worst because at times they can appear normal so there are episodes where you let your guard down.

We classify lies as "bad" and honesty "good." No one wants to admit that they do anything "bad" like lie, even if it's just a little one to protect someone's feelings so instead we say that it's not a lie but a, "social convention." No, it's still a lie.

It's not the lie itself but rather the INTENTION that is so important.

The important thing is to set one's own standard and then try to live up to it. There is something profoundly satisfying in living a life according to one's own principles or articles of faith, and especially in getting through the rougher patches of life without violating the standards we have chosen for ourselves.

To me, that is what is important. If I think that telling someone that Santa is real is a lie, then it is important for ME not to do that. If someone else does not regard it as a lie, then s/he is not violating his own standards by promoting it. And in this short discussion we have already seen that the concepts of "truth" and "lies" may not be as related as we like to think. Saying "I am fine" when clearly you're not is not generally considered lying, but it isn't the truth, either. The gray areas exist, defined by each of us in accordance to upbringing, beliefs, life experiences and knowledge gained over a lifetime.

Saying "I am fine" when clearly you're not is not generally considered lying, but it isn't the truth, either.

But what is fine? The definition of fine seems to vary depending on the person. I would never say I'm fine if I thought it was a lie but fine can have many connotations and levels.

Most people say it merely as a social convention, without regard to whether or not it is strictly true. I do not regard it as lying. But, if ones definition of lying is saying something that is not true---regardless of intent---- then for those people it is lying.

I, also, was raised to think that I'd be struck dead for lying, and if I said I was sick to get out of doing something, then that was really tempting fate. I try really hard not to give in to the white lies that (seemingly) make things easier. If someone cares about my opinion, they probably already know that it will be honest.

I never lied to my husband about anything--there was no need, and he was always honest, too.

About Santa,Tooth Fairy, et al.--I didn't perpetuate the myths with my kids, although I told them (at a young age) that the subject was like discussing 'sex'--other parents wanted to tell their kids in their own way, so please don't discuss with friends. I remember being so disappointed to find out that my parents had lied to me about Santa--I seemed to be the only kid at school that didn't know the truth. Come to think of it, the same thing happened with 'sex.' ;)

Yes, there is the one child in school (Kdg) that tells all the other kids there is no SANTA or TOOTH FAIRY-ruins it for them all! I just told my son that its too bad they don't believe in Santa, and they are the ones missing out!

I was definately not damaged by any means, in believing in Santa Claus. I'm so glad the majority goes along with these fun traditions! Anyway, I believe Santa is real too!

I've become aware recently that I lie to make myself look better, or at least to avoid looking weak, stupid, inept, etc. Not a trait I'm proud of, so I'm consciously working on it. Example, if I forget something at the store and family member says, "Did you get carrots?" -instead of just saying, oh darn, I forgot, I'll say something like, "They didn't look good, so we can get them tomorrow at...."

Ugh!