No big box has a selection anywhere near like even a modest sized independent. Selection as in numbers of varieties.

Evidently you've never been nursery-hopping in Georgia.

"No big box has a selection anywhere near like even a modest sized independent. Selection as in numbers of varieties."

I haven't found that true. Every year HD & Lowes seems to have a better and better selection (varieties, not quality). In fact, my local big box stores usually have at least as many varieties as many of the mail order nurseries. If I'm there early (soon after shipments arrive), I can usually find a number of things even more exotic than many of the better independents are likely to have.

Asking an employee, even management at big box stores plant questions is like asking the guy stocking the dairy case about milking cows.
A nurseryman is the guy who propagated the tree, mixed the soil, pruned & staked, hopefully sold it and collected his money.
This is an especially good time of year to buy directly from nurserymen at regional plant sales, there's one just about every weekend. Here's one I've been to several times, its so popular, with 40 vendors, you have to park nearby and be shuttled in.

I remember asking a nursery asking what I was looking for. When I replied "Arizona Cypress" they said "Sorry, we don't carry those." A few minutes later while wandering around there, I came across about 20 "Carolina Sapphire" Arizona Cypress. In talking to them it was evident that they didn't know that Carolina Sapphire were a cultivar of Arizona Cypress.
Most nursery employees don't seem to take an interest in what they're selling.

sam_md: you are right that the majority of big-box "garden department" employees don't know very much about plants, but you will find some employees that know a lot. For many, the reason why they applied for the job is because they enjoy gardening so much. I know. I worked at HD in "Garden Department", and most customers assumed the orange apron meant I was an idiot even though I came to the job with a vast repertoire of valuable gardening information. Yeah, I earned a reputation as the plant expert in the 2 whole months that I worked there.

Even though I loved being around plants all day, I quit because we were ridiculously understaffed. And also, I hated working in the pesticide/herbicide aisle, because I got queasy and lightheaded. There was a very pregnant worker in Garden who quit too, after she had a miscarriage. I would not be surprised if the constant exposure to noxious chemicals triggered her miscarriage.

I have met other big box employees who know a thing or two about gardening, so please don't ASSume they are ALL ignoramuses who can't find a better job. I encountered too many jerky customers who had zero respect for someone just doing their job. I didn't NEED to work there, I was so overqualified.

I was honest with customers, because I got an hourly wage and lying did not increase my earnings, and I actually cared about gardening. But then again, I only worked there for less than 3 months, so that tells you something, too.

Was it possible that a shipment of Arizona Cypress came in, and was set on display before the worker had a chance to notice it? That kind of thing happened all the time during my stint at HD.

Whenever I shop at a nursery of any kind, and especially the Big Box stores like Lowes and HD, I have learned to browse first before asking an employee whether they have a certain plant. And if you do ask, and the employee says "no I haven't seen it", they probably are not lying. Big box employees don't get commission. Maybe that worker doesn't know plants well enough to remember the names. I do know plants and shrubs and trees very well, but sometimes shipments came in before I got a chance to notice them.

And, forget about calling on the phone to ask-- if it's a Big Box store like Home Depot or Lowes, you won't get a reliable answer. In that case, employee just tells the customer "no we don't have it" to get off the phone in a survival mode. Maybe, in an ideal Home Depot that is adequately staffed, the worker can drop everything he/she is doing and go check the plant selection to look for what the caller is asking for. But not where I worked!

No. What scotjute said happens frequently.

This isn't just some hourly worker who doesn't care, these are the owners and upper management.

They don't even try to sell you a leyland or bradford, they just make up lies and stories.

When asking for something, I will sometimes say to them "If you don't know, it's OK to simply say I-DONT-KNOW"

As for "garden centers" having the same selection as "plant nurseries", what I have found is "garden centers" are about all we have left. Their selection varies from year to year and is unreliable. Sometimes they get some great stuff and other years like this year it's weeping willow, bradford/cleveland pear and silver maple. They will often have more species of shade trees than a plant nursery but they won't have very many of them. For instance, the K-mart I Was talking about has bur oak, shumard oak, nutall oak. You could go to every garden center or plant nursery in a 50 mile radius and not find those desirable oaks. They only had a couple of each one compared to 50 willow oaks (and just willow oaks) from a plant nursery.

Here trees aren't selling these days so independent nurseries with buyers who are paying attention have cut way back. Are you looking at all the plants different outlets there are carrying, or just the trees? Maybe the big box plant departments are stocking the same numbers and kinds of them because the chain of command has not picked up that they aren't moving like they used to.

Or people there are still buying trees.

I find it very hard to believe that the same big box chains operating there as here would have vastly larger selections. We have multiple independent garden centers here that offer probably thousands of kinds of plants in a given year. A big box plant area here might have what, 50? 100? kinds at one time. Very similar to the loss leader plant displays in front of supermarkets here.

Keep giving your business to big boxes and it will continue to kill off alternative sources and selections. When they are the only game in town then the chains will jack up their prices to what you would have been paying at an independent.

With a fraction of the selection and service.

HD is already "the nation's leading nursery". They dominate their suppliers and sometimes put them out of business, as does WM.

I look not just at trees but shrubs and annuals.
PErrenials, not so much but I can tell you that the hardware stores seem to have a larger selection of perrenials.
Walmart doesn't have anything around here.

For an example of one of the independent garden centers in the Seattle area...

When HD came to their town they gunned for them specifically, posting ads with direct price comparisons actually naming the existing independent vendor.

That is what I would definitely consider a "garden center", in direct competition with home improvement big boxes.

Most of my complaints are actually with nurseries but I do have a complaint with a local home depot where they had a sign outside that said "everything with a white dot (spraypainted on the container) is 50% off".
So I asked if the princeton elms that have been sitting in the parking lot for 2 years were half off because they had a white dot and the guy said yes.

So I rounded up a bunch of them thinking I was going to pay $48 per tree and schelpped them to the register inside the store because the garden center register was closed then they said "oh sorry those have a white dot but they aren't half off, never mind the sign, tough ___. The manager looked up the price history in the computer and showed it to me and it showed they were $48 at one point but when I was there it was $96. I have not returned to that garden center since. No thanks. I'll stick with k-mart where the price rings up lower than they are marked and there is actually someone around to help.

Plants in poor condition are never a good buy.

sam_md -
"Asking an employee, even management at big box stores plant questions is like asking the guy stocking the dairy case about milking cows."

This has absolutely been my experience. I'm sure there are as many answers as there are areas-- in mine? The local nursery employs people who are really into what they're working with, whereas walk into Lowe's or HD, and it's people with no more knowledge than the average layperson. I've had hour-long conversations with the tree salesmen at my nursery (Mullhalls in Omaha), impressive conversations- I've developed relationships with some and learned to definitely trust their knowledge and experience; whereas I've been told by guys at Lowe's that Bradford Pears are great trees, and that Canna bulbs can overwinter fine in the ground here (& not out of lying, I presume, just ignorance). That's been my experience. I feel bad for people who've been lied to at local places, though! That's awful. I don't think it's at all indicative of the entire industry, though. My experience has been the polar opposite.

It is human nature, sure some people may be honest to a fault while others will say anything they think you want to hear. Independent business owners can be a funny lot, in various types of businesses. I can remember many odd experiences over the years... of course many are out of business now which may not be a good thing. I've had many problems in the past with other types of "hobby" sellers.

If they don't respect you much, people will give you a speel or try to sell you what they want to sell you. Depends if they figure you are good possible repeat business or not. If they figure you are stupid they may see you as someone of a sucker... not really to rip off so to speak but to sell what is good for them instead of the customer. Sometimes owners can be quite arrogant. Beware if they are acting like they don't care if you are a repeat customer.

But in defense of nurseries... have you ever listened to the stupid questions they have to put up with all day?

As for Lowe's and Home Depot... if you are ornery maybe try one day and see if you can find anybody there who knows ANYTHING. Somebody most know the difference between the annuals, perennials, and trees... as they get grouped together for sale. But I bet there are people in that department who don't even understand that basic distinction.

You have to set your expectations accordingly.

I have yet to find a garden center or retail nursery worker that is more knowledgable than I am, not to be conceited- the average tree hobbiest studies trees in their spare time and nursery workers rely on tags or books, but all I ask for is don't lie to me or make up stories or excuses.

Nursery clerks aren't paid anything. Management may not clue them in on what is going on, like what plants have been received or are going to be received. The work is also often seasonal, with them not being present for an entire year's cycle. The last nursery I clerked at, they didn't bring me back in for the second spring until April! The previous November they had me attempt to inventory part of their fields, as they had planted conifer cultivars etc. without labeling and hoped I would be able to tell what everything was while recording how big it was and how many there were. Nobody else on staff would have been as likely to be able to identify each kind, including the owners.

Then it was "We'll call you" for four months.

Consumer advocate David Horowitz wrote "A clerk is a jerk, talk to a manager" (or similar) many years ago. It is the same problem as in other retailing: clerking positions are being filled by poorly paid, often inexperienced (young) or almost untrained people with inadequate knowledge of the products being offered - at the same time that shoppers have more questions and concerns than ever.

The garden center scene will be somewhat different in that the majority of the products presented will not have become more complex, which is much of the basis for shoppers requiring more help elsewhere (paced offering consumer electronics for instance).

"Paced" should have been "places".

As far as big box stores go, garden departments are classed as 'seasonal' so are interchangeable with the Christmas display... available employees are shunted there and back as needed. How much they actually know about or like plants seems to have little bearing on whether or not they end up there.

Don't get me wrong, I am in NO WAY endorsing The H.D. as a good place to buy plants. The sins committed there on a daily basis gave me emotional stress, such as keeping the garden dept so understaffed that there was no time to water all the plants. If they died and came back to life, then great, we kept quiet and didn't tell customers. But, we also threw away so many countless "distressed" shrubs and trees that suffered because we didn't have enough time to water them... not like most Lowes, who at least puts their distressed plants on clearance. At our HD it all went in the trash.

My point was, I did not enjoy being taken for an ignoramus just because I had a low paying job working with plants. Probably, I was the rare worker who actually was informed and knowledgeable about gardening and actually knew a whole lot about plants, and had a distinct passion for gardening.

There were customers who came in, thinking they knew everything, and they were so much smarter than me. (It's retail. What could I do except smile and let them learn from their own mistakes?) I couldn't stand working there, and I quit after only a couple of months. But I wrote this, just so you know that occasionally, a knowledgeable nursery worker CAN be found. It may be like the proverbial needle in the haystack, but you never know.

Not knowing is fine with me.
Lying is not.

When I ask a question and sense someone is starting to make stuff up as they go along, I interrupt and say. If you aren't sure or don't know, it's ok to say "I don't know".

There are big enough problems with these nurseries today... putting 1 gallon plants in 3 gallon containers, overfertilizing, not carrying anything other than the bare minimum basics.

Their biggest saving grace is the warranty. I believe all retail nurseries should have a warranty. The one year warranty lowes offers in nice. One local garden center chain even has lifetime warranties on their trees now which doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me but oh well. Incidently they don't seem to carry trees anymore.

There is good stuff to be had at lowes and HD.
Just last week I saw some nice new Teddy Bear magnolias there, something someone here suggested as a replacement for my apollo sugar maple but I dismissed it because I didn't think I would ever find that cultivar.

They have a few desirable trees there on occasion such as bald cypress, tulip poplar and legacy sugar maples. Their shrub selection is 2nd to none in this area. From what I can tell they just don't sell them very quickly or at all so why bring in a good selection if nobody is going to buy them?
They still have to have a garden center so might as well make some money at it.

I mentioned before K-mart has the best selection in town. But the exact same trees that I saw there a month ago are still there. Even at $16 per tree, they aren't selling.

I think this is the root of the matter with these types of garden centers. Trees are risky. They don't sell quickly and there is a high likelyhood they will die from not being watered or planted correctly and be returned. The only trees people ask for (in my own finding) are flowering trees like the pears and crepe myrtles. AND leyland cypress. When I am in these places and there is another customer there looking at trees or asking an employee about trees, they are asking for these by name.

I've read through this thread with a certain degree of amazement and all I can conclude is that independent retail nurseries in various parts of the country must be operating under much different conditions than the bulk of the retail nurseries in my area!

Let me preface this by saying I've been involved in the retail nursery industry for many years in various capacities. I've also been involved on the wholesale growing end of the business as well and my experience just does not match what has been written. Granted, there may be a very strong regional factor involved - things may be very different elsewhere - and I've focused my attentions with several of the larger and better known nurseries in my area, but I still have a very hard time accepting that what has been written is SOP for any retail nursery that is attempting to thrive or even survive in today's tough economy.

First, "clerks" here do not sell plants - they man the cash registers - and to be honest, yes, they are often young, temporary and often don't know one plant from another. But they are not the ones out on the sales floor working with the plants and helping customers. These tend to be long term, year round employees or returning seasonal workers and most have a great deal of plant knowledge......some even have astounding amounts of knowledge. The state nursery association sponsors a horticultural certification program that many nurseries take advantage of and many local independent nurseries heavily advertise the fact that they have CPH's (Certified Professional Horticulturists) on staff to answer questions and help customers with plant selection. While they are never going to get rich working for a nursery, most of these long term employees receive a very decent wage - far better than most other retail situations.

Most of the larger, local independent nurseries offer an enormously large selection of plants - 100's of times larger than any of the local box stores. I've yet to see a Lowe's or HD that offered 300 different cultivars of Japanese maples, collections of dwarf conifers or literally a 1000 different species and cultivars of perennials including the newest introductions. Or collector plants. Obviously, if you have 3 or more acres devoted entirely to the display and selling of plants, you are likely going to have a bigger and better selection than a home improvement store that only offers a couple of thousand square feet devoted to ALL gardening activities, including all the products and machines that are in demand.

It's a very expensive proposition to operate a retail plant nursery. Real estate is expensive and is always under competition from other types of development. Sales competition is intense, especially from the box stores and other non-nursery plant sellers. Overhead is high and there is not the volume or the range of other, often high ticket, items to defray operating costs like the box stores benefit from. This typically translates to higher prices than one would find elsehwere and in order to compete successfully, they must offer value added services that the other types of retailers do not. Retail nurseries that are successful remain that way by offering skilled and knowledgeable help and better selection. Lying to customers or otherwise deceiving or offering less than topnotch customer service is a fast road to failure.

No doubt there are bad apples in the nursery biz, just as there is the occasional knowledgeable and very helpful employee to be found at HD. But I don't think making broad generalizations about the deceitfulness of retail nursery owners is valid either. Most independent nursery owners work very hard to offer a quality product at a competitive price and hiring an uneducated, surly staff and lying to customers is not the way to maintaining a successful business.

Thank you, gardengal, for your as always thoughtful and comprehensive response. This thread was making me dizzy, as well.

A note on plant warranties - Everyone in the trade knows that nearly 98% of new plants die within the first year - here in the midwest, usually in July or August. People go out of town for 2 weeks in August, new plants are pretty much dead when they get back! Or the first winter takes 'em out, particularly the broadleaf evergreens - which is why many area nurseries do not warrant such plants past December.

Consequently, 2 year guarantees, or even "lifetime" guarantees on woody plants don't really mean much. It doesn't cost the business any significant amount of money to offer such a guarantee - and I have seen some nurseries charge more in the initial purchase price in order to offer such coverage. That, of course, is not in the best interest of the consumer...

brian

I've worked "on the floor" at more than half a dozen local garden centers in this area over the years - including at least one that gardengal48 has mentioned working at herself - and the situation was always exactly as I described in this post. The last place I worked at was doing about 15 million dollars per year at that time. As always, nobody had any clout or was really being paid enough to make it worth their while except the tiny core group of the owners and their lieutenants.

I want to know where all these well paid, fully informed nursery clerks are. The place where we asked about society garlic and the employee working the display tables had to go ask a supervisor? The one where I overheard a "salesperson" I have seen working there for some years telling shoppers to leave the burlap on the potted tree when planting?

How about the giant operation where I answered an ad for a plant expert and was interviewed by the owner, who told me really all they do there is unload racks?

Soon after the wording of the ad was changed from "expert" to "friendly".

Ha!

Wow. 300 cultivars of Japanese maples?!!?!?!?!
A thousand species of perennials?

We don't have anything like that here or anywhere on the east coast that I've ever been to.
The only thing that comes remotely close to that is forest farm which is up in that area in oregon somewhere. I am constantly amazed at their selection.

Maybe in the PNW, the pleasant weather year round and plentiful rain is more conducive to gardening and outdoor activities in general so there is greater demand there.

"Everyone in the trade knows that nearly 98% of new plants die within the first year "

Really? I wasn't aware of this statistic.

"Consequently, 2 year guarantees, or even "lifetime" guarantees on woody plants don't really mean much. It doesn't cost the business any significant amount of money to offer such a guarantee - and I have seen some nurseries charge more in the initial purchase price in order to offer such coverage."

I think the warranties translate to "we stand by our plants and we want our customers to return to our nursery".
Lifetime warranties are silly and are a bit of a gimmick IMO but giving people a store credit if they save their receipt and return within 6 months is reasonable. I purchase more liberally from places that have a guarantee.

When one has a pessamistic/negative approach to virtually any situation combined with a superior-than-thou attitude with regards to their horticultural experience, it's not terrifically surprising to discover their experiences working at a retail nursery would produce unsatisfactory results.

Like any other form of retail sales, retail nursery sales is 95% customer service with product knowledge comprising the rest. The vast majority of nursery customers know very little about plants and want simple, direct answers to their questions, delivered with a friendly, helpful attitude and a smile. They don't want to be lectured and too much information makes their eyes glaze over :-) And since at least in our zone 8 location the assortment of plants available at nurseries is staggering in its volume, it is unrealistic to assume that every nursery salesperson will know the details about or even be familiar with every plant. I certainly don't, although I believe I know more than most. That does not negate the contention that most of the permanent staff are knowledegable and well-informed about plant matters. I personally would have no problems with an employee not knowing or being familiar with society garlic and asking a supervisor or other staff member - it is not the most commonplace plant in this area and is unusual in area nurseries and gardens. I am not too proud to admit that questions have arisen with plants I am not personally familiar with and all it takes is a visit to reference book, the Internet or asking a coworker to provide the info the customer requested. What's so terrible about that??

Unless you are the owner of the establishment, no one is going to get rich working retail - that's just the nature of the beast. And even most nursery owners just get by. But my experience is that better nurseries do pay for knowledge and experience and retain a core of permanent sales staff that have that knowledge and supplement as necessary with seasonal employees that may have lesser skills. Sure, I don't make even half of what I did with my previous career in finance but often income isn't the overriding factor - I am not stuck behind a desk, I get to be outdoors in the best (and the worst) weather, I get to work with something I feel passionate about with fellow employees that feel the same, I get paid a decent wage (with full benefits) for doing so and I get to work with the public. And that's the kicker - if you don't enjoy working with and helping the public, some of whom can be very trying, then this isn't the career for you.

>When one has a pessamistic/negative approach to virtually any situation combined with a superior-than-thou attitude with regards to their horticultural experience, it's not terrifically surprising to discover their experiences working at a retail nursery would produce unsatisfactory resultsWe've never met. Soon after you first came on here you posted I was "full of crap". Should I use that and your succeeding numerous other salty comments - including the above - to assume that is a good representation of your personality and how you behave in all situations?

I don't consider arguing factual points on the internet an indication of a superior attitude etc. I do consider that going right away to personal attacks in such discussions might hint at a certain point of view.

I agree its really only the owners and the other family members at a nursery that make the real money.
The maximum number of cultivars that exist on a plant I don't think is near what is actually available at any nursery.
A few years ago I had a job at a nursery where I worked a whole 8 hours a week there, watering their plants and doing other hard labor that they always managed to save for me.
There I was 37 years old (and plenty of plant knowledge) and watering plants for 8 hours a week at 8 dollars an hour.
I remember carrying trees and plants out to waiting customer's cars and having to go around the owners' nice cars. Its even discouraging applying for a job at a nursery (when you know thats what you wanna do) but your pretty much guaranteed to get the worst deal possible.
I thought that that watering job might be an in to something real nice but all it lead to was bad feelings and a sore back.
Actually, I'm more in favor of the box stores. Because really, who needs the over-priced cultivars, over-priced mulch and over-priced pavers, over-priced yard ornaments, over-priced land-scaping materials and more when the vast majority of it can be found at Lowes, The Home Depot, WalMart and Kmart and other box stores in other parts of the country.
And I think an actual "cash-back" return policy is a policy that is slowly dying as well. I helped my friend return $180 of dead plants to Suburban Lawn and Garden in KC this Spring, and much to our dismay it was an "in-store credit" policy. It was a 2 year return policy alright, it should be called a "2 yr exchange policy".
The box store return policy might only be 1 yr. but at least its cash-back.
I never liked how nurseries would sell alot of plants that wouldn't be warranted past November because the nursery knows those plants are dead when it gets cold. Many customers don't understand zones and hardiness and their money was wasted. I know to save receipts on some questionable plants but I don't know that most people do.
98% does seem a bit high. Even non-green-thumbs I'd think can do better than that. I for one would like to see that statistic to believe it.
Lets not forget nurseries are about sales, the people on the floor are salespeople. Its like going to a car dealer-ship, they come out to make sales. Thats how nurseries can get away with over-priced stuff, people buy it, its pressure sales by sales oriented staff.

Thats how nurseries can get away with over-priced stuff, people buy it, its pressure sales by sales oriented staff.

I'm sorry but I just have to comment on this statement! It is so incredibly inaccurate - at least at any nursery I have worked at or for that matter, any other nursery I patronize (and there are MANY!). Sure a sales staff is sales oriented - that's the point of ANY retail sales position - but pressure sales?? Heck no! First, with very few exceptions, plants or garden accouterments are not necessities - these purchases are almost entirely discretionary. The consumer is under no obligation or pressing need to buy and high pressure sales tactics simply do not cut it. No nursery in my area has any target sales goals outlined for its sales staff - they are there to display and tend the plants and assist customers in finding and selecting appropriate choices. And in many cases, the customers are quite able to make their own choices without assistance - it's darn hard to buy a car without a salesperson's intervention, but not so for plant shopping! The two situations are not in the slightest bit similar.

shortleaf, I can only assume that your personal experience as a nursery staff person has clouded your opinions. If I only worked 8 hours a week for $8 an hour and was restricted to watering or carry outs, I'd not be very enthused about the industry either. But that is not necessarily typical - I work 40+ hours a week and even as a brand new, fresh-out-of-hort-school employee was paid considerably more than minimum wage. And as I progressed in my nursery career, was given more and more responsibility with appropriate salary increases. I make a pretty decent income as a nursery salesperson :-) But then I've been doing this for a good number of years now.

Brian's comment about the 98% failure rate pertains more to the industry overall than it does to consumers. Industry statistics do support the contention that 98% of the plants grown do not make it either to market or to the homeowner's garden. But most of these are lost in the plug or liner state at the growing operation, not in the retail nursery or garden center or in the garden. Of those that do make it to market, there is a much lower rate of attrition of approximately 25%.

Plant warranties vary from operation to operation and there is no standard "cash back" return policy. And cash back returns are pretty uncommon in any retail operation unless you paid cash in the first place. And few other retailers are selling a live product also. Most nurseries in my area will guarantee nursery stock for one year and never for cash back - only for exchange or store credit. And guaranteeing certain plants beyond a certain date makes perfect sense.......it is just silly to guarantee annuals for one year when virtually none will last through the winter. That the box stores do so - yes, they guarantee even annuals for one year - is a marketing technique that is intended to draw in customers who may then spend a lot of other cash on other, non-plant items. Retail nurseries just do not have this ability nor the wide range of non-plant products to defray operating expenses.

Like any other industry or retail sales opportunity, there will be quality, upstanding operations and those as well that are not quite up to par and some that may even be deceitful or dishonest. It can happen in any industry. But it is not fair to make blanket statements or broad generalizations that dismiss or tar the entire industry with the same brush. And as an industry insider, I can comfortably say it is a lot more complicated a business than most suspect. And unfortunately, those that seem to have the most complaints about it are those that understand it the least.

I can see and understand why you don't want nurseries to be a thing of the past. In my opinion nurseries are doing it to themselves. Perhaps if they focused more on what box stores can't reasonably have, like big selections of hard-to-find cultivars at a more reasonable price. Instead they are carrying over-priced stuff that box stores also carry but at a much better price. Greed is killing them, not the consumer. Instead of nurseries having massive inventories maybe they need to scale down and stop paying themselves so much for one.
It seems like every nursery is "family owned and operated". There is not much moving up in many nurseries for this excuse, err I mean reason. I've looked over several sites to inquire about employment and many of the top jobs are held by family members. All the people seem to oddly enuff have the same last name or their married to so and so and everybody "has 30 years of experience in Horticulture". I think what it should say "is I have 33 years experience in hort because thats when my granddaddy started paying me REAL good".

I don't really feel as though I am stepping on any toes here, although I do know of people who have made it big in that trade, they already have it made, or are currently gouging folks.
Nurseries have never buttered my bread. I'm talking about my wallet contents. Everything is much higher at nurseries. Even a nursery bale of hay is, for some reason, several dollars higher than the same hay anywhere else that sells hay.
Actually, one doesn't have to have a hort degree to be blindingly interested in plants. I'd wager that just because somebody has a hort degree doesn't qualify them to be an authority on everything in the industry. I also think the vast majority of plant lovers aren't degreed in hort.

Yes, I can understand how it would be helpful to utter some seemingly good plant knowledge (and maybe boast about a degree) to customers, but lets get real, its just a helping hand to the cash register.

I see I've been painted as inexperienced and perhaps disgruntled but its not really like that. You don't have to be degreed in hort to have experienced it.

Really, it all boils down to disposable income and why nurseries have to have as much as possible of the consumer's. Its not personal, we all have to make a living somehow.

Mmmnnn, no, my comment that 98% of new plants die within the first year was most certainly directed at the retail customer. Obviously, I was too succinct. How about:

Given the extremes of weather typical to a continental climate, ( hot dry summers, cold dry winters) nurserymen in the midwest are well aware that the majority of plants which are sold to consumers under warranty (woodies - trees and shrubs, perhaps ornamental grasses; roses and small fruits seldom; vegetables, annuals and perennials, never) - such plants are at their greatest risk in the first year of establishment. The aforementioned extremes take their toll. Or as I tell my customers, if your new plant still has green leaves on Labor Day, you done good.

Once a plant has been successfully grown for a year, the odds are very very good that it will continue to grow and thrive, all things considered.

Consequently, extended plant warranties do not really offer a consumer any additional benefit.

Now, I'm reasonably sure - correct me if I'm wrong - there are areas of the country with much more clement weather where hardly anything ever dies. Hawaii, maybe? Considering the flack my industry is taking here, I might like to try to get a job in such a locale....

Hey, and you know what else? My customers and I are having a great spring. The weather has been really nice this year, I got tons of happy people coming into the nursery, and we spend all day long 7 days a week talking about all the wonderful plants.

If your shopping experience has not been like that, then you have my sincere regrets.

brian

Picked up a nice 5 gallon purple-leaved corkscrew hazel today - at Home Depot. Much cheaper than at some independent outlets, based on prices seen a year or so ago.

Of course, there wasn't much else I was interested in - and many of the plants could be seen to have been allowed to dry out and burn on a prior occasion.

That's what Big Box plant departments are good for: an occasional cheap score on a special plant you would like to pay less for.

Not good for a large assortment of quality plants. Certainly not a place to use for putting together an entire planting - or garden.

Unless you don't mind starting with stock that may have been seriously degraded before you got it.

And an extremely minimal variety selection is all you require.

I'm starting to get the hang of this thread:
-Nurserymen are liars
-K-Mart is a nursery
-Rosie O'Donnell is a swimsuit model
Riiiiiiiiiight!!!!!

Interesting thread. As far as my own personal experiences go, I've seen both good and really bad from nurseries here in Kansas and a few in Oklahoma and Texas I also frequent from time to time. I think shortleaf's comments about pressure sales seems to be the case with a few nurseries in the Kansas City area. I know there is at least 1 nursery company(they have several sites) there I can't go to without being harassed. I stopped by one of their sites last week and within the first 10 minutes of being there I was approached and tailed by no less than 6 sales people. Even after I stated I didn't need nor want any help and was just looking around. I find it's only after I get very terse with them that they will back off and let me be for a while. On the other hand there are a couple of people who are amongst the long term higher ups at that company and they are perfect professionals who help out only when you ask or they only ask you if you need help once and then leave you alone. Maybe they're salaried while the others get some sort of commission?

On the somewhat opposite side of the spectrum, there's another nursery company in the Kansas City area, where the customers are ignored and when you do ask for help(like asking if they have a particular plant or where is something,etc.), often times they act like you are bothering them(some even act like they're mad at you for disrupting their other work duties!) and they will ignore you or not even acknowledge that you just asked them something, until you get right up in their face. They often times get confrontational and over defensive when asked questions as well. I also had an incident one time where I wanted to buy a hard to find shrub from them, but the 1 they had left looked somewhat miserable. I was confident that I could nurse it back to health, but I asked if they could either sell it to me at a discount or waive their "warranty" and sell it to me at the "wholesale" price(this is exactly what they do for landscapers, etc.). Oh boy, was that a bad move! They just about ran me off the premises for having the gall to ask such a thing! They literally ended up telling me to either buy it or leave. They do seem to have a solid core of long time customers who have largely kept them going over the years though. I have been told they used to have excellent customer support back when the owner was more out on the "sales floor" and a lot of people feel loyal to them based on their past relationship with the owners. They do have a good selection and some things which are very reasonably priced and hard to find regionally, which doesn't hurt them I'm sure. I know that's the only reason why I stop by at all.

Similarly there is a well known nursery in Topeka, KS in which you either get really friendly, great help, or you get treated like they are just waiting for you to leave and they treat you like you've personally wronged them somehow. I still can't figure this one out and neither can others I know who've been there. Again though, they have a good selection of hard to find plants and decent prices. The only reasons why I bother with them.

Lastly, I've been to several large to medium sized rural nurseries(1 in LeRoy, KS, 1 in Clinton, OK, 1 in Vinland, KS come to mind) as well as the nursery brian_zn_5_ks works at in Lawrence, KS(didn't put this together until after I had last visited that nursery). I even spoke with Brian, again didn't realize it at the time(he was friendly and helpful!). I found they are by far the best at customer service and they tend to help when you need help and when you don't need help they understand and leave you be. They also tend to be much more laid back when compared to nurseries in bigger cities. The owners also generally seem to be much more involved with things, including the sales and customer help. One big city nursery company(they have a few sites but I always seem to see the owner at which ever one I'm at) exception which falls into this category for me is one in Dallas, TX where I've never had a bad experience yet.

These are some specific examples and some generalities based on my experiences. I think that since a lot of nurseries are indeed family owned and run, you tend to get a variety of customer service experiences largely based on the quirks and personalities of the owners reflected by the people who work for them.

PS. shortleaf2002, I think 1 nursery in the KC area has begun to price the plants which you can also buy at the box stores accordingly. I noticed that many of the perennials and shrubs commonly found at the box stores were priced much lower when compared to their other plants this year. Plus they looked much healthier than many of the ones at the box stores. It was those family nurseries.

Sam_MD,

If someone who was completely new to gardening and shopping at nurseries went online to search for a decent, long lived tree and found little other than sites with poor BBB ratings selling royal empress trees for $130 and went to garden centers and only found bradford pears and weeping willows, do you think they would end up buying a good tree?

When a landscaper wants $500 to plant a tree but doesn't have anywhere left to get any trees themselves, do you think this new gardener is going to get a tree that way?

K-mart may not be a nursery but they haven't lied to me there. Everywhere else in town to buy trees that's still in business with the exception of one or two nurseries that don't carry hardly anything lie or have non-existent customer service. K-mart puts them to shame. I can understand why you don't believe a word of this but it's true and it's worthy of discussion. I live in a county with a million people, within a metro area with over 5 million people and the best place I've found within 30 miles to get trees is K-mart. Hard to believe for sure. I don't know about you but I'd rather have a 90 day or 1 year no-questions return policy from a garden center where workers don't know a buckeye from a zelkova than a place that just says whatever they think you want to hear to make the sale then later it's sticks stacks no take backs.

If you find what I've written so unbelievable, and I can understand why you would, then I'd love to know where you buy trees from. I will be in MD in about 3 weeks. I will have a big van and will be looking to replace 2 trees in my yard with something other than a callery pear. I'll need trees in the 7-15 gallon container size range. I'm pretty sure I've asked this question a few other times and have yet to get an answer. Hopefully you will be able to suggest some reputable place(s) to get trees that doesn't lie. It will be a big help to me if you did.

Well it's clear that misunderstandings and misconceptions about the independent retail nursery industry will persist despite what anyone else has to say :-)

As to these nurseries being "greedy", I think that's a big stretch and a pretty baseless assumption. The only wealthy nursery owner I know is wealthy because he comes from family money, not because the nursery made him rich. In fact, he has poured considerable personal funds into the business just to keep it solvent as it was upgraded and beginning to make a presence for itself. After 10 years, the operation just barely turns a profit. Most nursery owners pull out a living wage, nothing more. They can't afford to pay themselves handsomely - this is not a huge profit making industry!

You cannot compare a small independent retail nursery to a box store or mass merchandiser. The economics are totally dissimilar. The Walmarts and Home Depots of the world are huge corporate entities with immense buying power. They buy product in such large quantities that the cost is inevitably lower than a smaller operation can demand. And they have a huge network to spread the overhead expense against. The smaller, independently owned retailer does not. Compare annual sales figures - HD posted revenue for 2008 of $71.3 billion (and that's billion with a B!) and an extremely well-run, larger independent nursery might recognize gross sales of $25 million. Most are lucky to see sales of $1-5 million. Obviously there are economies of scale involved with HD that cannot be realized with a smaller, independent operation. If you don't understand this, then small businesses of any type are at serious risk.

BTW, the CEO of Home Depot received $9.2 million in compensation for 2008 - more than the vast majority of indpendent retail nurseries will ever see in total revenue! That's a 20% increase over the previous year (when was the last time YOU received a 20% raise??) despite HD laying off 7000 employees due to declining sales. Compare that to the wages paid to the average HD employee.......and you think that greed persists only with the little guys!!

Unfortunately, the size and buying power and the ability to set far lower prices that the box stores and mass merchandisers possess are the reasons why smaller independent retail nurseries are disappearing. It has nothing to do with their alledged "greed" or gouging their customers with high prices - they simply cannot compete. And that is a loss for all of us as we will all be forced to dumb down to the box store level with a meager selection of common, everyday plants, untended and unhealthy, and non-existant customer service in favor of low prices. If that's what you want, keep thinking the local box store or Walmart is a "nursery" and is a better value simply because they offer lower prices. You get what you pay for.

ifismn wrote:
"I live in a county with a million people, in a metro area with over 5 million people....."
Why don't you elaborate a little and give us an idea of where you call home?
BTW I live NE of Baltimore MD
Sam

>Unfortunately, the size and buying power and the ability to set far lower prices that the box stores and mass merchandisers possess are the reasons why smaller independent retail nurseries are disappearing. It has nothing to do with their alledged "greed" or gouging their customers with high prices - they simply cannot compete. And that is a loss for all of us as we will all be forced to dumb down to the box store level with a meager selection of common, everyday plants, untended and unhealthy, and non-existant customer service in favor of low prices. If that's what you want, keep thinking the local box store or Walmart is a "nursery" and is a better value simply because they offer lower prices. You get what you pay forYep.

I've nearly given up on a career in that field anyway, its too hard to get into, and its going down-hill.
I expect we'll hear about it in the news someday, and learn the real "whys?", if thats what anybody wants to hear then.

I don't expect nurseries will totally disappear, just the ones that were managed poorly.
I don't think nurseries will qualify for a bailout.

Heres a photo that somebody recently took (on the web) of a large nursery here locally.
You see those white carts over to the left? Those are golf carts for the love of god.
How eager is a nursery to get a customer's umm, wide rear end, up to the cash register with tons of goodies,
that they need to have around 200 golf carts at the ready? And those plants in the foreground is far less than
half of whats outside for sale. That big building in the background is nursery indoor central.
I've never seen so many trinkets and most of it can be had at box stores or even garage sales.
And the prices on the stuff! And I'm guessing this one won't be lumped into your "small, independent, retail nursery" category.
I see why a lot of the more proud nurseries are in affluent areas, so they can stay in business.
Nurseries are kinda the liquor stores of the affluent areas.
Also, the words "cash-back" was taken a little too literally. I meant, for example, if you pay with a credit card and you have to return, the payment is put back into your account. I like the no take back expression above! : )
{{gwi:348397}}

Prices on plants shot up after fuel prices went up.

Same as other goods.

Sam wrote:
ifismn wrote:
"I live in a county with a million people, in a metro area with over 5 million people....."
Why don't you elaborate a little and give us an idea of where you call home?
BTW I live NE of Baltimore MD
Sam

I live NE of Atlanta, GA

Sorry I didn't mention that earlier. I didn't want there to be a run on the plants at k-mart.

So we're in a similar climate, please suggest some retail nurseries for me.

Next time you come through Knoxville, check out Beaver Creek Nursery ( www.beavercreeknursery.net ). See Duane (he'll probably be the one to greet you anyway). They are a small nursery with a good selection of interesting trees, shrubs, and perennials. Most of their stuff is in 1 to 5 gallon sizes. You will have a good selection of things that you'll never see at KMart, zero pressure to buy anything, and an extremely knowledgeable and friendly salesperson.

P.S. Tell Duane he owes me a deeper discount next time for this plug. LOL

Thanks for the suggestion. I was at Beaver Creek last month when I was in knoxville on business. Also went to stanley's and a couple other places. Didn't buy anything though.

ifisnm,
If I lived NE of Atlanta I would check out the Georgia forum and do a search for nurseries.

Checking the nearby independent nursery for the same item, I found what appeared to be a purple-leaved contorted filbert from the same batch.

90 bucks.

So, the Despot occasionally does have its uses.

Sam,

I've lived in Georgia for years.
I wrote this post, remember?

So about the nurseries you like again. Which ones would those be?

Unfortunately, it isn't just the plant nurseries!

With trees being such an expensive and permanent investment, I asked around and was given the name of a "good" arborist/landscaper. My needs were fairly specific----I'm trying to restore the woods on my property and made it clear I wanted natives, NOT cultivars. We walked the property and discussed what to put where. He absolutely knew what I wanted.

Well, 4 years later, it is clear that the Wild Plums are indeed natives. But the Dogwoods this guy planted look more like orchard trees and their white blooms in spring are practically the size of magnolias! I feel certain they are not natives, but cultivars. I'm also wondering about the Blackhaw he planted. This too looks more like a street tree than the shrub I'm used to seeing in the woods.

Another landscaping professional recommended Green Hawthorn for a spot where I wanted good screening. Well, Green Hawthorn has small leaves. What was she thinking? Plus, the one she planted has an obvious assymetrical crook at the top that looks terrible.

So you think you'll do better by spending more and using professionals? Not by my experience.

You're saying "natives" here but what you mean is "seedlings". If the specimens planted are examples of species native to the area then you did, in fact get "natives". The dogwoods could be seedlings that happen to have larger bracts than you expected. However, if they are all the same and definitely larger than usual for the species, then that would suggest they are a grafted clone instead of seed-raised plants.

For screening you want dense, bushy growth so the hawthorn may have actually been a suitable choice. Back-and-forth, horizontal branching is common among hawthorns. Large-leaved trees and shrubs are often coarse-growing, with gaps. They also draw attention to themselves, so they can draw attention to a spot (and what else is in the vicinity) rather than obscure it.

In a garden setting coarse-textured plants are best planted near the front of a planting or other places where a bold effect is an asset rather than intrusive.

This is kind of off topic of the thread, but sunleafmoon if you had species of plants native to your area planted, then you got natives, grafted or not. The differences you are noticing between the planted natives and the naturally occurring natives in your area are most likely due to their provenance or as you suspect with the Dogwoods, possibly specific cultivars being planted. You can get native species planted on your property, but they could be grown from seed collected in a far off part of that species native range and thus you might notice differences between them and the ones naturally occurring in your area. Cultivars can also originate from seed grown plants from far off areas(to your area) of the species native range or represent extreme forms/mutations of the species.

So, it sounds like you wanted local provenance native trees planted, but you probably got non-local provenance native trees planted. It's uncommon(at least here in Eastern Kansas) for locally native tree species found in nurseries to be grown from local provenance trees. Most are shipped in from a wholesale nursery out of state and the wholesaler grows them from seed collected in their local area or they grow them from seed from wholesale seed companies who collect them from who knows where. Smaller local nurseries(I've found most all of these are started by former farmers or people who grew up on a local farm) and local nurseries who specialize in natives seem to grow much more of their trees from local provenance seed sources.

There are sources of genuine native trees here in Missouri. The MO Dept of Conservation is one. Another is Missouri Wildflower Nursery. I hear there are some other sources as well. I chose to go through an arborist/landscaper because, among other things, I was hoping to find native trees more mature than the small saplings available through MDC and MWN. And he did assure me that he could get natives.

I'm no expert, but I do hike around and the trees this guy planted don't look at all like those in Missouri forests. I spent a lot of money for what I expected to be a joy, and has only turned out to be a source of irritation, as every spring these Dogwoods put up huge, phoney-looking blooms that look more suited to a front yard than the woods. I would not take out healthy, thriving Dogwoods....to me that would be a cardinal sin.......but every spring I look at them and feel conned.