You should spend some time with Kenji Lopez-Alt, a talented writer with Serious Eats. Kenji, who once ordered everything on In-N-Out's secret menu and who has a dog named Hambone, tried an experiment to go vegan for 4 full weeks. It's been fascinating, and I now have a whole new way of looking at this way of eating/way of life.

I'm not up for changing my own diet, but Kenji has convinced me that I need to try a lot more, and to appreciate the differences.

Vegan isn't about imitation cheese or whatever, as Kenji learns. That's not the solution at all.

Note that Kenji is the author of the Perfect Prime Rib primer that we have been linking a lot. For some reason, the daily posts are listed in reverse order. I suggest starting at Day 1.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Vegan Experience

It's not just vegans... my vegetarian friends keep trying to convince me fake meat is just as good as the real thing.

"Horse puckeys!" as Col Potter used to say.

Alexa

I wish I could go vegan, even vegetarian, but I find my body does very poorly with grains/legumes. There are so many things that I miss and really like in that world.

The only cheese I'm really big on is parmesan. I put it in all of my pestos and many other sauces. And I'm not big on fake meats, but I do like making veggie burgers that are actually made of veggies- not soy. Without egg, they just turn into a mushy mess, as did my beetloaf last night (I used flax eggs, which supposedly work wonders but didn't for me.) Some of his recipes look good, but some of them look like they'd leave me hungry. I have to have at least one meal every day that is chock full of either beans, nuts or legumes- otherwise I find myself eating snacks all day.

People who eat vegan for health reasons generally don't eat the fake meat/cheese. :) It's nearly as bad for you as the real stuff.

Most people have an excuse for why they can't go vegan. Usually it's just that - an excuse, because people don't want to give up their addictions to SAD food (Standard American Diet). But people who give it a real effort more than a day or two will be amazed at how different they feel.

Cookie, you don't have to eat grains/legumes to be a healthy vegan. 95% of my calories come from fruits/veggies/greens and, contrary to popular belief, that provides plenty of protein.

The standard American diet is indeed terrible. But to avoid the foods that humans have eaten for thousands of years is ridiculous. Veganism is unnatural, not healthy. Just to take one example, vegans cannot get B12; they must depend on vitamins produced by an industrial culture. What's natural about that?

Dairy products and meats raised in a healthy fashion--on pasture and without the feeding of supplemental grains--contain Omega 3s and CLA (conjugated linoleic acid), both necessary for healthy bodies. But both disappear when grains are fed. It's the industrial agricultural production system that has led to the deterioration of our food, combined, of course, with all the processed foods.

Ynnej wasn't debating the relevance of a vegan diet. Simply commenting on the truth in advertising aspect to some vegetarian products.

My son cannot handle dairy right now for health reasons. He is a teenager and really misses things like pizza and grilled cheese. I have found the shredded mozzarella substitutes to be okay. Not great, but lets face it, you taste first with your eyes and for him fake cheese passes that initial test. With a little olive oil, garlic and pizza dough, I can make a passable white pizza that helps calm the longing.
I have yet to find an acceptable sliced cheese alternative that doesn't taste horrible.
Tofutti is a great alternative to dairy ice cream and cutie pies, a tofu ice cream sandwich, are great. Unfortunately my son can't eat those either though due to the chocolate.
I love Morning Star veggie patties. The first ingredient is "vegetables (followed by a list of veggies). soy is second.
Please keep in mind that for some people, non dairy is a health mandate, not a hot topic. All suggestions as to what has worked for you would be greatly appreciated.
jo

I think they lie to convince themselves, as much as us, that it "tastes like cheese" or "works just like eggs". I wonder if it's a pleasant diet for most vegans/vegetarians. Lots of carbs (lots and lots), and food made in chemistry labs, and tasteless brown stuff.

It's a noble attempt at better eating, but humans are omnivores, and we do better when we eat some from column A and some from column B, just not too much of it.

jojoco, try the "We Can't Say It's Cheese" line. It's oatmeal based and much more natural. The texture is soft so it's good for spreading. I like it melted. My favorite is to heat it up and mix it with chili or salsa as a dip, but it would make good grilled cheese or macaroni and cheese. I haven't tried the sour cream, pudding or other products.

It can be hard to find and it's a little expensive but they will send coupons to try it if you sign up on the website. I find it at Whole Foods near the other soy cheese.

Here is a link that might be useful: We Can't Say It's Cheese

For the first time in human evolution, we have the problem of excess calories and cheap food. A century or so ago, most people were skinny and only 'fat cats' were fat.

A vegan diet can be very healthy if you take care to take vitamin B12 somehow, from a pill or whatever. Most vegan foods aren't calorically dense, and they have lots of good nutrients. I went vegan for a while and felt good, but bored.

Chi, I actually eat paleo now. I personally love it. I keep it to one meat serving a day (fish included). It is definitely an individual thing. Some people thrive with it, some fail (their bodies anyways), same with vegan.
As far as veggie dogs go, I feel a processed food is a processed food and there really are no good ones, vegan or not. I don't mind something like a lentil taco though, I used to make them in the past and they made an excellent substitute for the "real" thing. I could never eat the veggie dogs or cheeses either, blah for me but I haven't tried a lot of them and am sure if you search, you will find something palatable, even tasty.

Often times when people alter their diets from what is considered "normal", whether it's by choice (vegan/vegetarian) or due to health concerns or food allergies, there is a certain amount of "it's just like _______" that goes with the territory. One person's lie is another persons option.

Is there a no-calorie or chemical sweetener really like sugar? Has anyone ever been duped into thinking any margarine or a soft spread actually tastes and performs like real butter? Anyone ever try to convenience themselves carob is just like chocolate? Wonder Bread is just like homemade bread.

We just have to pick our lie...

-Grainlady

There's a big difference between the hunter/gatherers of centuries past and the meat/dairy at the local Piggly Wiggly that we have in our society today that take very little effort to acquire and is pumped full of hormones and other junk. It's also eaten much more often than it ever was (often 3 times a day) so it's really apples and oranges when comparing to historical diets.

Diet is a personal preference and we all have our beliefs on it. I just know I've tried everything in my evolution as a human and I thrive on vegan, and I think more people would too if they would just try it. I have yet to find an anti-vegan who has actually tried it!

There are plant-based sources for everything, even B12, if you eat correctly. The key to vegan is balancing it well. You can't live on soy nuggets and fries and expect to be healthy.

Cookie, the paleo diet is huge where I live as well. It's a little ironic to me that it's far more in line with how I eat than the standard omnivore diet. :) Removing processed food and sugar is never a bad thing, no matter what you eat otherwise.

There are eating practices which are religion based, including some vegans and vegetarians. Some of them will preach.

A well balanced diet is healthy, fun and delicious (IMHO).

I have this thought; in the Bizarro World, you may hear, " Look! I have succeeded in making this rib roast to look and taste exactly like spinach! And it goes so well with the cheese that I made to taste just like tofu. Yum!"

dcarch

It isn't only vegitarians who lie.....
Lies I hear frequently:
You really can't tell the difference between instant potatoes and real mashed potatoes....
If you get the right kind of canned gravy it's good.
Duncan Heinz brownie mix is very good....as good as home made.
Progresso soups taste just like home made.
I like bottled salad dressing, I always doctor it up with a few extra herbs.

My lie is "I really don't put much butter on my toast."
Linda C

I love it, Dcarch! lol

Interesting discussion. I have no time now, but I hope to come back and add my 2 cents worth soon.

Sally

lol Linda, so true. Though I do think the Ghiradelli brownie mix is better than most homemade brownies I've had. :)

Alice bought some vegan cheese once. It was not food. I don't even know how it could become an acquired taste. Perhaps this sort of faux food works to help people transition their eating habits. I have not tried egg substitutes. I had a cookbook (recently passed along to Alice) called "Follow Your Heart" that is mostly vegan and had recipes that called for egg substitutes. Though I did not try any of them, I assume they were successful recipes and took into account the real way the substitute works vs how a real egg will function in a recipe. Both of my kids could not tolerate milk or other dairy as infants and small children. They have since added it to their diets. Alice has some health issues that would benefit from eliminating dairy. Since I no longer cook for her she will have to sort this out on her own.

I like Garden Burger-type patties but I do not try to pretend they are meat. I appreciate them on their own merit. Same with tofu.

Follow Your Heart makes a vegan mayonnaise that really tastes a lot like real mayo, no lie. :P It's called Vegenaise. The other vegan mayos are disgusting.

Like Barnmom, I like veggie burgers for what they are. I do not try to convince myself that they taste anything similar to beef, because they don't, I eat them because I like them. I like burgers too, also on their own merits.

I think everyone should eat however they choose, they like or their health issues or conscience dictates. Just don't preach to me about how I choose to eat. I've had vegetarians send me hate mail because I raise and eat beef. They need to get lives. A few of them also need to get rid of their leather purses, boots and belts.

I have often said and continue to say that we eat way too much meat. I see those 32 ounce steak advertisements, and none of us need a half pound burger, a pound of steak or a chicken half. I have family members who eat meat three times a day. Less meat, more vegetables and fruits (although I don't care for most fruit) and we'd all be better off, both our healths and our environment would benefit.

As LindaC pointed out, we all lie. I convince myself that the skim milk in my non-fat mocha makes up for the sugar and gives me some calcium, it's all for my health, and please don't tell me that chocolate and coffee aren't vegetables because they both come from beans and so they're good for me. Yeah...

Grandma used to tell me that if it wasn't a food 100 years ago, it's not a food today. With that in mind I try to avoid processed items, convenience mixes, etc. I also try to keep my sodium intake under control somewhat, so I choose not to buy things like canned soups and gravies.

I've tried many "substitutes". margarine doesn't look, smell or taste like butter. Low fat mayo doesn't taste, look or feel like good homemade mayo. Instant potatoes are vile, IMO, and bear no resemblance to potatoes that I've eaten. Veggie burgers aren't even close to hamburger. Some substitutes are acceptable and some are good on their own, but they aren't "just like" anything else. Let them stand on their own merits. Some of them can.

Annie

Linda C, you couldn't have said it better than that. We tell eachother many lies about convenience foods tasting just as good as the real thing. I'm sorry for posting something that is so loaded with emotions on both sides. You can find evidence to support either lifestyle.

I'm not a fan of fake cheese, either in taste or texture. BUT, I'm not a fan of lowfat cheese either! However, I agree with Jojoco, some of it is just eye and mouth feel, and for me, lowfat cheese helps in that way for SOME applications. For example, I can tolerate soy milk in coffee but not tea, with hot cereal but not with cold cereal. I like some fake meats. The worst ones for me are the ones that add chemicals to try and taste like meat. I don't like the taste of beef in particular, so the "grilled" kinds of fake meat burgers gross me out. However, I like some fake meats, but not because they taste "just like meat" but because I like the way they taste. Taste is very subjective. I for one had no trouble wrapping my brain around the concept of a vegan or vegetarian diet. It's not a threatening concept for me. So I never felt the need to use fake anything to make my meals appear close to the SAD. I don't like the SAD. A dinner with several different kinds of food appeals to me. I don't feel like my meals have to be any set type of way. If your brain is locked into the idea of a hunk of flesh for protein, a starch, a cooked vegetable and a salad as being necessary for a meal to be proper, I doubt you'll ever make it as a vegan or vegetarian. Which is fine. If you like to eat that way and can afford to, it's none of my business or concern. But so many people are trying to incorporate more vegetable products into their diets for health reasons, so those of us who thrive on that kind of thing are just trying to be helpful with suggestions of what we think tastes good. For some it may be something all fake. For me it is a bowl of split pea soup and a whole grain roll with a side of coleslaw. I use tofu for a protein boost in all kinds of things, like I make my spinach dip with mostly tofu and then some sour cream and mayo thrown in for flavor. I like it BETTER than the full fat version. I like soy in puddings too. But I have no way of knowing how it might compare for somone else's tastebuds. I also like Nayonaise, but someone else might hate it. I have a vegan friend who loves all the wheat gluten products, she loves that she can make all of her standard meat-based favorite recipes but just sub seitan. I am somewhat sensitive to gluten, so I am not a big seitan fan (I love that it rhymes!). I can't stand "Smart Balance" margarine, it tastes waxy to me, but BF loves it. I love Morningstar Farms fake sausage patties, but BF dislikes them. Me on the other hand dislikes most sausage--too greasy and heavy. I rarely find gluten free baked goods tasting "just like the real thing." But if I had to go gluten-free, I would be happy with a close approximation! So there you go, on and on.

I started being vegetarian when I was fourteen, and I kept it up, more or less, for about ten years, I guess. At first I did not give up fish, and then after I did, it was the first thing to add back. I learned from my doctor that I was hypoglycemic and needed more protein. He told me I needed meat in my diet, and so I started eating chicken again and started feeling much better. As a vegetarian, I suffered a lot from dizzy and fainting spells. Adding chromium to my diet helped also.

More recently I have learned that I have slight allergies to corn, wheat, barley, rice, and soy, although I do not notice any problems when I eat rice. It seems that I was born to eat meat, nuts, vegetables, and fruits but not grains. I've been reading a lot of anthropology books lately, and they say that when humans started farming and raising grains for a major portion of their diet that they became less healthy and also shorter, at least from the bone records that have been studied.

I cook lots of dishes that are vegan, simply because I feel better when I avoid eggs and dairy, but I also feel better when I avoid grains and feel worse when I avoid meat.

I pretty much do not like (or eat) food that is imitation anything or that is trying to be something it is not, but then that is my personal taste. I do not understand why people want to eat imitation food unless they have strong cravings for something that they consider forbidden for one reason or another. If they have an allergy to it, then I think eating the imitation will only make them crave it more.

My own attitudes about diet have changed many times since I was fourteen.

Lars

Perhaps some vegans haven't had real meat or cheese for long enough that they don't have a basis for comparison.

I had Chinese food at a vegetarian Taoist restaurant that tasted enough like real chicken that I wondered if they were cheating but they had a Kosher certification so I'm fairly sure that they weren't. It was in dishes with sauce and lots of flavors which makes the charade easier. It is possible to get fairly meat-like.

My son is vegetarian (dairy products and eggs but no meat) but generally won't eat any vegetarian meat substitutes. About the only fake meat he will eat is occasionally putting Smart Ground in bean chili - it gives a nice extra chew and again it is a case where there is enough other flavor in the dish to carry off the fake.

We keep kosher so we don't mix milk and meat and don't use pork products, etc. I avoid recipes where I would have to use a fake to get around that. When substituting, I'd rather substitute with something real - for example using olive oil or chicken fat rather than margarine in a meat dish to substitute for butter. If a recipe includes bacon or pork for flavor, I leave it out, but I'm going to try lpink's suggestion on another thread of using black cardamom to add a similar flavor component.

Liars, liars! Worked with a girl who seriously got into Weight Watchers. She was very successful, but went a bit over-board in my opinion. She'd bring in DONUTS and wouldn't touch them!?! Enjoying them by watching US eat them!?! Maybe wanting us to get FAT!?! She tried to convince us that her PLAIN rice cakes were an extremely tasty snack... if ya like eating sytrofoam!!

I'm not going to get into trying to judge others' eating styles; ultimately, I don't know their story and it's not my job.

Jojoco, I can commiserate. My daughter was not allowed to have any milk protein as a high-schooler while we investigated some health problems. It was initially hard to not participate in the eating part of her social activities.

In any event, I wanted to tell you that she was a tofutti fan, but in particular she liked the Tofutti Better Than Cream Cheese. I remember using it as a base for some pasta dishes, etc. too.

Good luck. Trying to work with food limitations, intolerances, allergies can be daunting at first.

Cathy in SWPA

There are all different vegetarians. Most of the 7th Day adventists are some type of vegans--Some eat some meat, some, eat some dairy products etc. There are some really good recipes in their cookbooks. They eat alot of grains and veggies. I have a dil that is completely one and even makes her own milk (don't ask me how!!) but she does great but does take some vitamins. I have eaten many of their products and do like some over others What we do is think of the items not as substitute, but a different taste/meal.
That is you would not expect turkey bacon to taste the same as pork bacon. Chicken does not taste like beef etc. There veggie burgers (Loma Linda brand) does not even taste like beef burgers, but does look similar. Hope that helps a bit.

I don't try to kid myself or anyone else that meat substitutes such as veggie burgers or tvp tastes just like beef or chicken, but I do occasionally eat those products for the protein and to get the texture I want. Sometimes when I make chile, I want the feel that the crumbles product by Morningstar Farms gives to the chile. Sometimes I just use beans. I'm using the meat substitutes less these days for several reasons, mainly because of the GMO thing and the process they use to extract the soy. I don't completely understand it, but I came across the website, Cornucopia.org, by the Cornucopia Institute. It teaches a lot about what's in our food and how its made and grown. It has an article about how they use hexane to extract soy. I'll link to the article rather than to try to explain it, since I don't completely understand it myself. But it sounds bad.

Anyway, that's a lot of rambling to say I only eat those products occasionally. I do like the flavor of them sort of, and even get in the mood for them, but it 's probably because I haven't eaten meat in so long I've forgotten how it tastes. The main ingredient I use as a meat substitute that's natural is mushrooms. I have no idea of there's any protein in mushrooms - I've heard both that there's not and there's a lot. I don't worry about it, because their flavor is so good to me.

I don't preach or tell people what they should eat. What I did get really, really tired of when I became a vegetarian, is people asking me why I was a vegetarian. I guess I got tired of explaining it. Now there's enough people out there that are vegetarian, I don't get that question nearly as much.

Sally

As far as I'm concerned, there's nothing intrinsically noble or virtuous about being a vegan or a vegetarian. Sometimes I run into people who are almost self-righteous about their diet choices. I think a lot has to do with each person's unique set of taste buds and their own particular dietary requirements.

My husband is on a sodium restricted diet. For me, the simplest and easiest lower sodium meal is chunk of meat, fish or chicken with a couple of vegetable sides. A grilled steak tastes good even without any salt or a salty sauce, but using all salt-free products like no-salt-added broths and tomato products can often result in really bland dishes. (By the way, that's the lie I hate hearing: "You'll never miss the salt!")

I've always loved beans and all the cruciferous vegetables. But in the last several years, I've been unable to eat them without a healthy dose of Beano (and even with that, I suffer distress). So I no longer fix bean burgers and bean-laden stews & soups regularly (Plus bean soups are pretty flat tasting without salt). Lately, I'm having similar problems with Brussels sprouts, broccoli, etc. I cringe now when I read articles about the benefits of cabbage and its cousins. I love them and could eat them every day. But I wonder, is it good for me to ingest so many tablets of Beano every day? So a lot of the mainstays of a vegan or vegetarian diet are somewhat off limits to me now.

I think our diets are very personal. Most of us enjoy the luxury of being able to decide if we want to be vegans, vegetarians, or omnivores, or eat sustainable, etc.

"I've always loved beans and all the cruciferous vegetables. But in the last several years, I've been unable to eat them without a healthy dose of Beano (and even with that, I suffer distress). So I no longer fix bean burgers and bean-laden stews & soups regularly (Plus bean soups are pretty flat tasting without salt). Lately, I'm having similar problems with Brussels sprouts, broccoli, etc. I cringe now when I read articles about the benefits of cabbage and its cousins. I love them and could eat them every day. But I wonder, is it good for me to ingest so many tablets of Beano every day? So a lot of the mainstays of a vegan or vegetarian diet are somewhat off limits to me now."

Amen, sister. I am salt sensitive now that I watch the sodium but I still like a wee bit. I simply never eat beans and eat lightly of cruciferous vegetables. Not worth the discomfort or social awkwardness.

To be fair, there are omnivores who are self-righteous in their dietary choices as well. I've learned that when people ask the question, "what made you become vegetarian," it's best to give very vague answers and move away from the subject, as it often leads to lectures about protein, people eating meat since the beginning of time, and on and on. I think maybe diets belong in the realm of politics and religion- lets all keep them to ourselves. I opened up a can of worms with this post and I hope no feelings were hurt.

Ynnej, you are so right. Self-righteousness rears its ugly head all the time among omnivores too. I enjoyed reading this thread because I discovered a lot of differing opinions. I like hearing more than one side of an argument. I did, however, get a big chuckle from Sushipup's link. One of his posts was about vegan pantry "must haves." Many of the items (such as miso) would never work in my husband's low sodium diet. And many of his meals featured beans, which would never work with me now.

I think your topic was a really good one. When it comes to food, there are all kinds of lies -- from the margarine that tastes just like butter to the salt-free stew that tastes better than regular. (Yes, I know I get really riled up about the salt thing!)

I think it's very interesting. I'd probably have ignored the whole thread a month ago before I started following Kenji's blog, but it really opened my eyes. Not meaning that I plan to change my diet radically, but that a lot of what I thought I knew is wrong. And a lot of the true vegan recipes look amazingly good, and yes, if I had a private chef, I could live on it and be happy (I think, well at least for maybe 90% of the time.)

But my initial response is that one of the main points of the blog was to show that substitute foods are not even necessary and vegan who "lie" are just poor or lazy cooks. And being a true honest vegan is even harder than it seems.

I don't think you ruffled feathers (oops, can that pass in a vegan conversation?) so much as started an interesting conversation. It was perfectly timely for me, having just read that blog. I guess my wish is that people wouldn't be so defensive and instead try some new things in their diets and see what else is out there. Doesn't mean that you have to give up anything if you are an ominvore, but rather just keep expanding your horizons with new recipes and tolerance for others who eat differently.

And I agree with you, I hope that all the vegans out there who depend on fake substitute processed foods get a good cookbook or take some classes, because the line about it tasting just like meat gets annoying pretty fast. Well, at least to me!

Ironically, I was a fairly strict lacto ovo vegetarian for about 30 years, but now the "lacto" part isn't working as well for me, so that's why I've started eating lean meats, but also experimenting with more vegan type meals. And I love cheese and would love to eat it with every meal. But it's also high in saturated fat. So we have to limit it in our diet. I'm also sensitive to gluten, so I try to limit the amount of wheat and wheat gluten products I consume. Soy does not bother me. So that's why I've been willing to experiment with some vegan products. I find the quality varies WIDELY.

Oddly, my brother on the other hand is allergic to soy--it causes him to have a lot of mucus, even with something like soy sauce. He eats a lot like Shambo and Lars describe--meat, plain veggies. That way he can avoid any hidden soy products or vinegar, as he is also sensitive to that. I think he may have some milk issues now as well. He eats salad with salt and pepper! He hardly eats any sweets or refined carbs, and the kinds of things we might rhapsodize about he does not like. He just likes plain foods. His big splurge is bacon or sausage, and he definately wouldn't like my "just as good as the real thing" products made out of soy!

I was thinking about this at the grocery store yesterday. I have a certain type of palate that is part culture, part diet concerns, and part taste. I never had much of a taste for meats, and I've not eaten fatty meats and rich desserts for so long that I have really lost my taste for them. I imagine you can loose your taste for really salty things too. I've never liked them and my diet is fairly low in salt so very salty foods do not appeal to me. So vegans have a particular palate that is the result of a combination of factors, so they may not be "lieing" when they tell you it is "just like such and such." What they might mean is, "it fills that food niche really well for me."

Being vegan and waxing poetic over flax seed meal is really no different than any of the other tastes people have here. Some folks wax poetic over a pastrami sandwich, something that I don't "get" either. But if it rings their bell, great! The difficulty comes along when you're a died-in-the-wool pastrami sandwich lover and you get the diagnosis to lay off the salt and saturated fat for your health. Or you're a meat and potatoes gal and you marry into a Thai family that is all rice and seafood. Or like me, you develop mild lactose intolerance in your old age and have to go on a low acid diet for health reasons. Then some accomodation has to take place--respectfully! :)

I'm jealous. After reading a few posts I sew how quite a few of you read your bodies so well. I don't have that "gift". So sorry to get off topic for a second, but for those of you with issues, when do you feel your discomfort? Right after, a few hours or the next day? I am working out a couple kinks in my diet and I know there are a couple of things not working quite right, almost, but just a wrinkle. Thanks.

Ynnej, I've really enjoyed reading this thread, and haven't noticed anyone expressing hurt feelings.

Cookie, I think some people have gone on elimination diets to help determine what might be causing their problems. That might be what you need to do.

As for beans and crucifers, I'm just careful when I eat them, and am glad I work outside! lol

Sally

This has been a great read. Diet is so personal...we're all different. Still interesting to read about everyone's experiences.

When I went for my annual last month, the NP had just returned from a conference and was all fired up. Said I needed to become vegan so my cancer didn't come back (ummmm...no, it's about two freezers full of homegrown beef, pork and lamb). Yesterday I had my teeth cleaned and we talked about how our teeth are built to handle both meat and veg. I think you crave what you need. This time of year it's greens for me.

We were vegetarians for a few years. We ate well (maybe not at first...) and I still make a mean lentil burger. Never used substitutes. Now we eat what we want, but try to eat clean and local, and in moderation. Something's working because DH dropped 80 lbs., is maintaining it, and hasn't given up anything.

Everyone's different...The Kid has gone gluten-free, trying to get her allergies under control and says she feels great. Now her BF has Crohn's and they're trying to figure out what to do with that. When I had biofeedback she told me to stop eating sugar and dairy. Not giving up my morning quad Americano w/ cream and sugar, but I do stay away from fake cheese. I ate a Big Mac once. Talk about a big mac attack.

In terms of beans and unwanted consequences, I've found in my personal explorations that you really have to eat them consistently. I eat beans at least 3 times a week and have no problems with them, but if I'm on vacation or something and stop eating them, I really have problems when I start again until my system gets used to it again. The human body is fascinating.

I've heard that eating legumes routinely will allow your body to develop the means to digest them with fewer side effects. I'm afraid I'd find the interim period very painful.

E

You might, but I've found, at least for me, that it only takes once or twice before my body is adjusted, but you have to keep at it. I think most people have painful digestion and swear off beans for a bit, and then they either have to start all over again or avoid legumes entirely.

For me it's a joint issue thing. I wish I had digestive issues to say "hey, keep away" but it is more inflammation. I did the elimination diet a couple of times but I know I rushed it. I am pretty sure it's the nightshades getting me but I love my tomatoes! Sigh, time to quit them too. I didn't find this thread upsetting to anyone at all either, I also enjoyed it.

I don't think any fake food is going to taste like the real thing. But that doesn't mean they should or will taste bad. But in some cases they do. And not just because we have a preconceived expectation of something tasting a certain way. Some of that ersatz stuff just tastes bad. I've tried the "Better Than Cream Cheese." It's NOT but it has its own flavor that is okay. Not great. But that vegan cheese was just icky.

I believe any diet can be tasty and healthful if skillfully prepared from quality fresh ingredients.

I wasn't aware that beans cause inflammation. I have spent some time this morning researching anti inflammatory foods but hadn't looked at the topic from the elimination side. I have found that I can't take Aleve or Motrin because they cause my blood pressure to soar. I have no interest in going on BP meds and am seeking ways to address the inflammation issue with nutrition.

cookie8 and barnmom-

You may also want to check out lectin intolerance (see link below), especially if you have already tried sprouting legumes before consuming them and still have issues with them.

Check your local library for these books for more information about inflammation:

-The Inflammation Free Diet Plan - by Monica Reinagel

-The Anti-Inflammation Diet and Recipe Book - by Jessica K. Black, N.D.

-The Complete Idiot's Guide to The Anti-Inflammation Diet - by Christopher P. Cannon, M.D., and Elizabeth Vierck

Now I'm off to eat a homemade bean burger on a homemade multi-grain burger bun, which tastes EXACTLY like a bean burger....

-Grainlady

Here is a link that might be useful: The Lectin Story

Honestly I've explored the anti-inflamation diet info. out there and if you're really into it, you might as well give up eating all together. Try to find a good list of foods to avoid if you're prone to gout, for example, which my BF is. Whoa! I have terrible menstrual cramps and tried a diet low in the precursors to prostglandins and also anti-inflammatory as well. Did it for months. Made no difference. Exercise helped dramatically with that problem though--sitting at a desk all day is absolutely the bane of life for our bodies! Now I'm on a low acid diet for interstitial cystitis. Only a few of the so called "trigger" foods bother me, which I found out by going the elimination diet route. Sitting isn't good for that problem either! So diet isn't always the magic pill. But some folks have found themselves remarkably healed by diet too, so there you go.

As for beans and inflammation, the only one I'm aware of is kidney beans. Supposedly high in purine which causes gout. Honestly though, compared to meats, kidney beans are small potatoes. Oh, sorry you nightshade folks, small turnips, oh wait, those are cruciferous aren't they, small rice grains.

I don't know if it is because I have always loved fiber-filled foods or what, but when I eat like my dad does, with the five main food groups being meat, starch, sugar, salt and oil, I start to feel lousy pretty quick! I tried it for a week when they were here one time for Christmas, I tried only making foods I knew my dad likes and not making separate for myself. Ugh. Couldn't sleep and felt sluggish. However, if you're used to a diet high in unhealthy foods, I don't think you realize its effects because that is just "normal" for you. And it takes a long time for the body to adjust to changes, either good or bad. Which is a good thing when you think about it. If your body couldn't adjust humans wouldn't be able to survive very well. But anyway, if you shock your system one way or the other, you're going to feel lousy and hate the foods, either way. That's why the best route is to go gradual. For some, "fake" products are part of the transition process. Eventually you may loose your taste for those kinds of things as your palate develops. I have been going low fat for so long that the full fat versions of most things don't agree with me, which is quite the opposite of how it would seem to someone just starting out on a low fat diet, they would find the low fat foods disappointing.

But you can develop sensitivieis to certain foods as you age. I used to pride myself on having an iron constitution. I can no longer get away with those things! Last night I had a fishwich, fries and coffee. Hardly the worst of fast food meals, but I was not able to sleep well due to indigestion and thirst due to the salt and then going to the bathroom! But I'll bet if I was used to it I wouldn't have had as much of a problem.

Yep, I am almost convinced it is a lectin thing:(. Barnmom, if you are talking arthritis inflammation, diet has been a godsend for me and I am off all meds. I love it. As Grainlady says, it is a lectins for me (wish there was a test for it). It's something I have to face and tackle cuz there are some great foods that contain lectins. And I will check out all the inflammation book reviews and head to the library, thanks, the one for idiots sounds promising ha ha.
I did make some great black bean brownies for the family last month and they loved them! I find it to be the same calorie count but I am hoping they offered something more nutritionally.

It's partly arthritis and partly muscular. I've spent the last few months eating and cooking in a more "traditional" way (for someone else) and have awakened each morning with a headache and tense tender neck and shoulders and general malaise. I am back to my usual this-and-that-snacking-grazing-living-alone habits now. This usually means a lot of raw veggies and fruits, oatmeal, whole grain breads, nuts (walnuts and almonds), a bit of cheese and an egg now and then. Not much meat or fish unless I have a dinner guest. I'm hoping I start to feel better. My oatmeal this morning was very spicy with a good dose of ginger and cinnamon. :)

I love to cook as a creative endeavor but not for myself alone. I simply don't feel like bothering unless I have someone else to share it.

I'll have to look closely at the lectins issue. I just avoid beans. I have not tried sprouting them before cooking them. I bet a bean burger would taste just great and exactly like a bean burger!

Eileen

I think Lpink has described my bean & cabbage problem: "But you can develop sensitivieis to certain foods as you age." I've always eaten beans of all sorts and all the cruciferous vegetables regularly. But something happened as I hit 55 years. And it came upon me slowly. First it was mainly Great Northern beans. Then garbanzos, my favorite, were troublesome. So on and so on. But brussel sprouts and its cousins were just fine until about a year ago. Now I have to take my dear friend Beano if I just have a small serving of broccoli. And in the last few months, I've noticed that I can't overdo raw onions any more. That's really upsetting to me. The typical advice about regularly adding beans to your diet hasn't worked in my case simply because beans were ALWAYS a regular part of my diet. I seem to be going backwards.

I have a vegan daughter. She doesn't do any "it tastes just like... ". She just doesn't eat anything from any living thing.. not even honey.

She is healthy, and feels good, does yoga and is a good daughter.

I just won't ever do Thanksgiving or Christmas Dinner with her again. I miss turkey and ham... :)

Moni

Sign on a display of canned beans at Trader Joe's today: "Our organic beans are a GAS!"