I have the Diamond and really like the AutoOpen feature.
When I turn it on before going to bed, everything is bone dry in the morning, even the plastics.

I rarely use the Turbo mode. Only when I have a dinner party and need a wash while I'm still entertaining.

So I guess it comes down to a personal preference:
How often do you think you'll need clean dishes in 45 minutes vs 75,
and how often you think you'll enjoy the AutoOpen feature (which activates every time)?

I bought the Dimension Plus because it had the auto-open drying. The wash times aren't an issue for me as the washer is extremely quiet. Keep in mind that 30 minutes of the time shown is the drying cycle. i.e. Fan comes on, runs for a while, then door opens while fan continues to run.

It could be the 75 minute Turbo = 45 minute Express if it doesn't include drying time.

I had an Optima with turbo and express.

Turbo was a non issue I could have done without.

Express was terrific because it was a short wash. I used it all the time. Now, using my older Excella I miss Express and would love to have it.

No experience with the pop open door drying in the newer machines but I've always found the drying to be fine, even in the Excella, now going on 9.

I also noticed in the guide that the Crystal/Glass program seems to skip most of the same steps that Express does. This seems to imply that it is also a quick program (though not necessarily). Can you simply use that program for a fast wash of lightly soiled dishes?

Again, I have an older model so there may be some differences. I use the china/crystal setting a good deal as I have lots of vintage/antique dishes plus Riedel crystal. In my machine it is, indeed, the shortest cycle but still in excess of an hour.

It's not really a sub for Express, which ranged from 35 mins to 50 or so and seemed much hotter. C/C is certainly shorter than "Normal".

No idea on the price differential but Express was the one big clear comparison between the two machines when we had 2 places.

Vents, schments. I also don't care about a door opening automatically. It may be a perfectly wonderful feature and if they're including it great. But I don't have drying issues and don't mind blotting plastics on a towel as they come out.

I've had a Futura Crystal since July and love it. Can't really comment on the door opening feature - sounds interesting but I'm happy without it.

I have and use both Express and Turbo. Express is fastest and great for lightly soiled dishes (such as when entertaining). I use the Turbo regularly as well, mostly on the weekends when I'm able to prep a nicer dinner early in the afternoon - I love that I can get the full cleaning power of the normal or pots and pans modes in less time.

I am happy with the drying on my machine. We often put small plastics in through the week and yes, the rims often have water in them (depends on their design and how they're sitting), which I just wipe with a dish towel. Some plastic comes out dry, but the stuff with deep rims doesn't. I wouldn't really expect any machine to dry up the puddles. Glassware, flatware and dishes all look as good or better than if I hand wash them.

Hope this info helps in your decision - think about how you'll use the machine and then enjoy whatever you pick!

Dimitrg, China/Crystal on the Dimension plus is 1:34. (includes 30 minutes drying) It won't let you select Turbo in this cycle. For a quick wash I would suggest that Normal with Turbo since it is 1:35.

For both cycles, the manual indicates the dishwasher may add/remove steps. I assume it is measuring particles in the water. There is an option to turn off Drying Plus which might shorten the overall cycle time.

Shortest Cycle is Rinse/Hold at 13 minutes.

I have an Optima and hardly ever use Express. I would only use this setting for VERY slightly dirty dishes or to clean the tub after filling salt. I also use tabs and the manual suggests this program is not suitable for tabs.

Lines in " from the manual.

Express
"Quick program" for lightly soiled dishware, e.g. party dishware or to remove salt traces from the wash cabinet after refilling salt, includes sensor controlled Glasscare, not suitable for detergent tabs."

I also don't like the turbo option. I think the temperature is higher. I noticed some thinner plastic items come out with permanent marks on them (as if heated too high).

"If the option "Turbo" is selected the program run-time may shorten up to 50 minutes and the energy usage will increase."

"Using the "Turbo" option during the "Express" program will rinse the dishes without heat, e.g. to avoid smells, if a complete program is not yet needed."

If I have a load of lightly soiled things, I use the C&C setting (as the manual suggests).

"For temperature sensitive glassware and lightly soiled dishware, use 50% of normal detergent amount, includes sensor controlled Glasscare."

When mine is done running its cycle, I do pop the door open to allow residual steam to escape. I thought of getting the La Perla for this feature but find it's just as easy to pop it open myself. I worried the "pop open" feature was something else to.

You really need to decide how you will use yours and what features seem most important to you.

Good luck!

Between the Dimension and Dimension Plus, I would go with the Plus model. Even though it doesn't have a dedicated Express mode, you can still activate the Turbo option to be use with the Normal wash (or any of the other wash modes) that will reduce the total time by 25%. The Dimension Plus also has the Auto Open for drying at the end, which is nice. It's almost like having the Diamond without the LED lights and extra cost.

On my Diamante Plus (purchased summer 2010), I don't use the Express since it only does a 5 minute main wash followed by two 5 minute rinses (15 min total). To me, that doesn't clean well, so I would rather use the Normal + Turbo that would be about 70 minutes total. I use that combination if the dishwasher isn't full (such as going out to dinner). But most nights I run the Pots & Pans mode, as it does a 5 minute pre-wash, 60 minute main wash (makes sure everything is clean), one 10 minute interim rinse, and one 10 minute final rinse (with rinse aid). The main difference between the Normal and Pots/Pans on my model is the number of pre-wahses, interim rinses, main wash time and water temp. Even though the Normal mode by it self is fine, I like the Pots/Pans better.

I have the Miele La Perla, and I have never used the Express Cycle. I use Sensor Wash or Normal for about 80-90% of my wash cycles. Sometimes I use Heavy Soil for things that are really caked up, or starchy!

LOVE, LOVE, LOVE the auto open feature and Delay Start. I have the machine set to start at 11pm, and when I wake up, the door is ajar and EVERYTHING is 100% dry. Miele makes the best dishwasher. I've only had and used Kitchen Aid, Jenn Air and Miele...and Miele is just awesome!!!

I called Miele about not using tabs with Express because there was no way I was buying liquid DW detergent again. They told me to turn off the tab setting and just use the 1/2 Miele tab. I never had a problem.

Just because this occurred to me last night as I was turning the DW on, I looked at the cycles on my DW. I almost never use Normal Plus, Sani or Rinse and Hold. My workhorses are Normal, China/Crystal and Pots & Pans.

With the Optima I used Express, Normal and C/C mostly. Occasionally Pots and Pans.

Fascinating how wide a range of usage and opinions there is, but very useful. Good thread!

We very rarely use any other mode but what Miele called
"Short Wash", back in 2005. We have soft water,
(on the hot side) and the Miele is connected to the hot side, so we don't hafta mess around with salt.
The short cycle takes 45 minutes.
Dishes always come out great, clean and dry, even without an
"Opening door".

The only thing we had to get usta was reaching in and grabbing cool plates, If we reached in too early with our old KA, we set that plate down "Straightaway"!! LOL

Still love that cutlery tray.

Gary

rococogurl,

On the Miele models with the "Tab" setting, here is what it does...
When "Tab" is engaged, it assumes that the tab you are using has rinse-aid built into it, so the dishwasher turns off the Liquid Rinse Aid dispenser.
If "tab" is not engaged, then the dishwasher will turn on the rinse aid dispenser during the final rinse.

I know this sounds weird, but it's listed that way in the user manual for the Optima.

You are correct fauguy. But Express isn't supposed to be used with tabs and that's why I called Miele.

I don't understand what they are thinking and I suppose I had double rinse aid since I was using Miele tabs at the time. But I also had clean fast washes and good drying.

It may make more sense with a Method tab.

oh my dimitri, now you've stumbled into a whole new "trekkie" area here, LOL.

I've used every one of the tabs and there have been numerous detergent threads here in sufficient detail to cause audible groans.

My understanding is that the current generation of Miele tabs do include rinse aid. Soffix tabs do and the Finish Quantum definitely do. The Method tabs say "seaweed derived dispersing agent" in the ingredient list. Don't know enough about rinse aid to say it is, but sounds like.

Hence the Tab button -- so that double-rinse isn't dispensed. Though again, on Express the half-tab I was using worked perfectly well. And in the Excella I'm currently using, there's no choice so I'm getting double rinse aid and the drying is good.

About Miele tabs -- they were reformulated not long ago and aren't getting the love they once did (multiple threads, posts) no longer scored for cutting, etc. I can't speak to that because I'm still using up the old ones, which I bought in quantity as we had two places for a time.

Larsi, I believe, highly recommended the Finish Quantum. Those do a super good job IMO & are wrapped in a dissolving film. Fauguy and others like the Method tabs which also do a great job and look "greener" from the ingredients but no wrapper so you touch them briefly to put them in. I also like the Soffix tabs a lot but they are super costly and not worth it over the others also must be removed from wrapper but you're not supposed to touch them (I won't go there on the logic). Miele tabs are outperformed by the others IMO, have dissolving wrapper, plus harder to get and I was getting a small residue of undissolved granules below the filter. Don't have that with the others.

Bottom line, if you go with a Miele DW I would suggest strongly to switch to tabs. Quantum and Method are widely available (best price for Method I found was Target).

It's easy to get hooked on those vs measuring out liquid (or risking an over-pour) plus no fumes. But most important: too much detergent causes problems so tabs are good insurance and so easy.

No one has done a recent bang-for-the-buck analysis on this new group so I can't say which are least costly. I suspect Method.

Yeah, Larsi loves the Finish Quantum Powerball tabs! ;) They work honestly amazing!

My family was here in Sept & Oct from Germany, and brought me many boxes of Somat 9 tabs (from Henkel, makers of the beloved & cult Persil). Somat 9 work brilliantly as well. They come in a thin, yet very easy to open wrapper. Finish Quantum does not have a wrapper.

When I am done with my many, many boxes of Somat 9...I will just use the Quantum tabs. They are easy to find, and I think very well priced. IMO, both the Finish and Somat tabs work much better than Miele, and so, so much cheaper and easy to find!!

"My understanding is that the current generation of Miele tabs do include rinse aid"

I believe they do contain a certain amount.

So you really think tabs are much better than using standard gel/powder along with rinse aid? Tabs do not seem terribly cost effective even if they work a little better.

Wow wow wow.....

Here's what I've compiled over the past 18 months of being a Miele owner...the detergent does make a difference.

The original Miele tabs were great. Could easily break them in-half. I only used one-half per load. No problems at all.

Then around this time last year, they changed the formula. The newer Miele tabs (which you have to use scissors to cut) say they are Phosphate free and do contain a (small) amount of rinse aid, but it also says it is still recommended to use the liquid rinse aid dispenser during the final rinse. When I tried these newer tabs (even just a half-tab) I would get a lot of suds in the bottom of the dishwasher during the main wash, but it would all be drained out and clean by the final rinse. I contacted Miele and was told to use even less detergent (even though I was already using half a tab).

So I then went to using the Method Smarty. Target use to sell them, but now can only get them at the Whole Foods store. There's 20 in a bag for $6 and can easily be broke in-half, giving 40 washes at 15 cents per half-tab. I've gone through 3 bags of them, and have been pretty pleased with the results. Plus it does not create any suds.

Then last month while at Wal-Mart I got a 10-pack of the Finish Quantum. Tried them out, and in my opinion it cleaned better than the Method (though it is subjective as the Method did look clean too, but not super-shiny like the Quantum). Since the Quantum says it comes with Rinse Aid in the pack (the red area in the center), I turned-off the rinse aid dispenser on my Miele to see what would happen. Most items were dry-ish, but not as dry as before. So I then tried the Quantum and turned the Miele's rinse aid dispenser back on (I have always had it set to level 1, as level 2-6 is too much rinse aid). I then got good drying again. I guess that even through the Quantum has rinse aid, maybe not enough of it is left in the unit for it to activate during the final rinse?

So after I finished all them up, I got a new Mega 60-pack of the Finish Quantum from Wal-Mart today ($13-$1 Coupon), which comes to 20 cents per pack. Even though the price is slightly more than the Method, I think it's worth it.

At this point, I would suggest to people to try the Method Smarty Tabs and the Finish Quantum Tabs, and skip over the current Miele tabs (until maybe they re-formulate it again). I still use the Miele Dishwasher Salt and their Rinse Aid (as it doesn't have a chemical smell to it).

Actually yes. Because my Excella is older I used the powder/rinse aid combo for some time. The Quantum and Method tabs give me far better results and superior drying even in that machine. No question.

The other aspect is that these machines are calibrated to work in a very specific way. Like Euro front loaders, using too much soap can create problems, including glassware etching that cannot be repaired (which happened to me with the powder, the reason I switched to the Miele tabs initially). Pouring out precisely 1 TB of powder detergent or less, depending on water conditions, isn't something I enjoyed. The tabs eliminate mistakes, spills, fumes, overfilling etc.

Everyone has different judgments about costs, particularly in the kitchen and laundry room. But they are worth it to me. Get to know your machine by trying it both ways and see what works best for you.

Gosh wonder if I am doing something wrong. I have the LaPerla, I use cascade in it, and liquid rinse. Do you recommend purchasing the Miele tabs. Normal is what I generally use for setting, I love this dishwasher, it is my first Miele and I am putting Miele appliances in my new remodel.

No, I don't think so winesnob. I'm using $2.65 Walmart brand dishwashing powder (75 washloads) in my Miele dishwasher and watered down generic rinse aid. Dishes come out perfectly clean on Normal. I don't see spending any more than this.

Water conditions can make a difference. There are no musts. It's whatever works best for you and there's a big range. If it ain't broke.... but I'd go for Quantum or Method tabs over Miele if I was going to give tabs a try.

I'm perfectly happy with the Miele tabs. I cut them in half and find half is perfect.

I had a tech here about my Miele dryer and he took a quick look at my DW. He noticed some streaking on my interior door and told me it was from too much detergent. Because I'm using salt to soften the water he suggested a use 1/2 tab. No more streaks and everything comes out perfect (even without added rinse aid).

I gave up Cascade years ago as everything washed had a chemical smell. I've used Finish Powerball also but prefer the Miele tab.

I have tried Quantum and they do work but I can't break them in half.

The Miele tabs can be cut in half, while the Method tabs you can break in half with your hands. Between those two, I'd suggest to first try the Method since it's the least expensive and cleans just as good as the Miele tabs. The Finish Quantum tabs can't be broke in half, but they work out to about the same price (20 cents for a full Quantum tab, 15 cents for one-half of a Method Tab, 24 cents for one-half of a Miele Tab).

Okay, I have only had my dishwasher a week now, but I have done a LOT of dishes in that time as we had Thanksgiving dinner at my house. That meant I got to do an entire load of each of crystal, fine china, pots and pans - basically every type of dishware. I have probably done 20 loads of dishes (or more) in this week so far.

I went with the Dimension Plus and I am happy I did. The Normal (with Turbo) and China/Crystal take about 90 minutes. This is about 30 minutes longer than I'd like. I have taken dishes out the moment the door opens and there is sometimes (a little) residual water, but if I wait for the drying cycle to completely finish (the fan turns off) then everything is dry unless I did something dumb like load a bowl upside down. I have not had the model without this feature, but my guess would be that the drying cycle of most Miele dishwashers ends where the Drying Plus starts. If so, then this is a really must-have feature for me as some dishes are just not quite dry enough at the start of the Drying Plus mode. I interrupted the cycle a few times to check - it's a bummer than once interrupted one cannot resume it.

I did use the Miele rinse aid and the dispenser needed a refill already. I estimate that I will have to refill once every 7-10 days for my usage and one bottle of rinse aid will fill the dishwasher about 5 times. That's a bottle of rinse aid about every 4-6 weeks. I really like the Miele rinse aid. No smell and NO SPOTS.

The technician who came out to install my dishwasher recommended that I use Cascade powder detergent. He said not to use gel as it will destroy the interior of the machine over time. He said he really shouldn't say anything bad about the Miele tabs and that they are okay, but that based on talking to the techs who do repairs (and his own 10 year experience as a tech with GE) Cascade powder is his recommendation.

Ignoring that advice (although I will try some Cascade powder and Finish at some point), I tried Palmolive ECO+ gel (which I had left over), Miele tabs (both full and half - he left me with 4 of them), and Cascade Complete tabs (the ones without Dawn in them). I always left the rinse aid dispenser on. I have hard water (salt dispenser is set to 20) and the washer is attached to the hot water line.

My impressions so far are that when I use an entire Miele tab there is a slight graininess on the surface of the dishes. I even had to rinse some off. This goes away when I use half of a tab. The Cascade tabs result in dishes that seem less dry initially (although they will dry if I leave the door open long enough - say overnight). The Palmolive gel doesn't get REALLY dirty dishes quite as clean as the other two, but it results in pretty clean, dry dishes.

In my opinion, I don't think it matters a whole lot. Miele makes a good dishwasher. Dishes come out clean, although there were some dishes that even it could not handle. Glass is always spotless, which is wonderful. Plastics seem to dry, but I wash very little plastic. Based on my experience so far I would not pay more for the Miele tabs.

dimitrig,

Congratulations on buying the Dimension Plus. If I didn't but the Diamante Plus last year, and had to buy a new model, it would be the Dimension Plus since it's basically a less expensive version of the Diamond model without the LED lights.

There should be an option in the dishwasher menu about setting the liquid rinse aid. On mine, it came with a default setting of 3, which means that 3ml of liquid rinse aid is dispensed. I found that this made glasses feel "sticky", so I lowered it down to a selling of 1 (1ml). I've been using this for over a year now and it works just fine. I refill the dispenser about every 6 weeks, and the bottle lasts me several months.

You had them do a hard water test and you are at 20 grains? Is that well-water that you are using? I'm on city water and it is 5 grains.

That's funny that your Miele tech suggested Cascade powder. I've read horror stories in here about it. I did try their Cascade Complete Action Packs when I first got my unit, and it left a chemical smell on everything. That's why I went this the Miele tabs after that. On the newer Miele tabs, I have tried both the full and half tab and didn't notice anything grainy left on the dishes. Maybe it's because you're using the Turbo option, which means the main wash cycle has less time to dissolve that tab? You could try it on the Pots/Pans without the Turbo and see if it does the same thing.

I'd still suggest buying a small box of the Quantum Finish tabs or a bag of the Method Smarty tabs. Both of them worked well for me, but the Quantum does clean better. Yesterday we had a large glass casserole in the over baking for several hours on low. After we were done with dinner, it had baked-on stains (some of which have been there for a while). This was the first time I cleaned it using the Quantum, and almost all those baked-on stains that have been there from a while came out. So that really impressed me.

Yes, my water was tested at somewhere between 20 and 25 grains. I settled on 20. I know it is hard because my (expensive) bath fixtures look terrible even though I clean often with vinegar. I really need a whole house softener. The house had one when I bought it, but it was broken and I removed it. I probably should have just fixed it.

I live in the Los Angeles area. My water is a mixture of local well water (less hard) and Colorado River water (very hard). My water company says the year-round average is 12.9 grains, with softer water May to September and harder water October to April (the source changes by season) so I think the test could be accurate.

Thanks for your advice.

fauguy,

I had no issues with the setting at 3ml, but I adjusted the setting to 1ml just to see. Dishes come out just as well, so I left it there. That will save me some money in rinse aid. I also set the salt down to 15 grains and noticed no difference so I left it there. I might even try 10.

BTW, I do not miss the Express Mode at all. I do like the Drying Plus feature. If anyone else is debating this trade-off, I suggest going for the Dimension Plus *unless* you do a lot of dishes. I do 1 load per day and 2 loads every other days or so and the wash time is fine for me. If I did more loads than that I might be annoyed by the long wash times. However, (I assume) the Miele has a sensor in it because I have noticed that often it finishes faster than estimated if it's a light load or a lightly soiled load.

Express mode is just a shorter wash. Turbo compensates for the shorter duration by increasing the water pressure.