We've had our Miele Optima for 7 years, and I promise it's not as complicated as all that! :)

I will admit that ours has had a few issues in that time, but those were rectified by Miele. More details on that in a moment.

First, most new DW's do have long run times these days. Energy efficiency means less water is used, so longer run times have become a necessity. Newer Miele models might have express cycles with shorter run times (ours has a Short cycle, which doesn't do a great job of cleaning, and leaves dishes wetter than other cycles do, as well).

As for salt, rinse aid, etc; salt is only necessary if you have a DW with a built-in water softener, and if you have it enabled. We have moderately hard water, and we do not have a whole-house water softener, so this feature was one we wanted. We fill the salt reservoir with DW salt once a year or so, and water is softened only as much as needed.

Most DW's, especially those without a drying element, require rinse aid for optimal cleaning (without spotting). Some on this forum prefer having a drying element, but I like that our DW doesn't have one. It means I can place any item, incl plastic-ware, anywhere I want or need to; top rack, bottom rack--doesn't matter, because it won't melt. The DW uses heated air I believe, to dry loads during the dry cycle. Yes, I often have to wipe water droplets on plastic items, and on some glass rims/feet while I'm unloading, and water does collect in concave coffee mug bottoms (as it does in pretty much all DW's). But, IMO, this is worth the ability to utilize any section of my DW for plastic items. I am sure I could look into increasing drying time or something, but never bothered.

Soap. You do not HAVE to use Miele, or other tabs in a Miele DW. You can use powder, or whatever you prefer. I had tried the Miele tabs when they first came out, and people here were raving about them. I had been using Cascade powder with good results, but felt the tabs left the glassware and dishes a bit shinier looking, and I felt the DW and dishes smelled better, too (clean smell, less chemical smelling than the Cascade loads). I had good results using either full or cut in 1/2 tabs (full tabs might have resulted in a drop more "sparkle" but 1/2 tabs still did an awesome job, and stretched a box out to more loads). Shortly after I switched, Cascade, along with other US DW detergents, removed the minute am't of phosphate remaining in their product(s). From what had I read and heard after this change, cleaning results with the new formula(s) were not great, so we stuck with the Miele tabs. I still cut them in half, and use those for most loads, though will sometimes toss in a full tab (or two halves) if a load is very full, or glasses are extra grimy with greasy fingerprints and such. I cut a bunch at once, and store them in a deli container--takes less than 5 min.

Issues we experienced;

Water (softener?) sensor wasn't functioning (probably an issue from the very start), so Miele replaced it within first or second year.

Suds on the bottom of the DW after wash cycle completed, possible rinse aid dispenser leak(?), had the dispenser replaced by Miele. Seems okay now.

Fishy/swampy smell in DW and on dishes after wash cycles; caused by degraded silicone (rubber?) seals on a couple of parts (which allowed "DW waste" water to trickle back into the machine during or after draining). Had the two parts replaced by Miele, and we've started using DW conditioner a few times a year (as a maintenance measure). No more smell, tg!

I've reset the rinse aid level myself by following the manual--easy to do. I turned off the "end of cycle" beep right after DW was installed. That's all I did, and it was easy to do following the instructions in the manual. I even removed and replaced one of the parts (since they were mailing it to my house anyway--the tech didn't have it in the van) so I wouldn't have to wait around for a service call. Easy enough to pop out the old one, and pop in the new one, I swear!

I really appreciate these comments, and the thought and time you gave to your replies. I'm still learning (and grumbling), and hope others will post as well. Actually, I did download and read the manuals and many comments on this excellent website before I posted my inquiry . . . and quasi-rant.

Deeageaux, re your information on Miele's "Express" cycle: Is the 36 minute time you mention based on your experience with a Miele (esp. the Crystal model) or is this info located on a Miele or independent link somewhere? I just see no other reference to it. Would love to be able to confirm your very helpful information.

Cat_mon: Special thanks for your advice about cutting Miele soap tabs. I've read here of others doing likewise. Remind me, please, how you keep the soap in after cutting, and manage to do a quantity of half tabs in about 5 minutes? I've never seen anything but the Cascade and generic tabs we use now. And I stopped using rinse aid about 4 years in to the Bosch when the warning light continued to glare at me no matter how often I refilled it. The dishes are dry enough - but maybe with 14 years of "progress" I will no longer find it so.

Here's what I know. There are only two of us at home now, happily retired. We don't run the DW every day, but almost. We don't give dinner parties for 12; we pre-rinse (my husband does it and won't have it any other way); we hand-wash our good wine glasses and large pans etc.. We don't wash plastics in the DW, or pets' dishes - by themselves or with our own in our DW:-) [We HAVE had some good laughs about these posts though.] Our locality's water people say we have only about 1 to 1-1/2 grains per gal., so I think we can do without the salt business. We don't need a third rack, but I'm curious to try one. I don't think I'd want one if the machine didn't have a third rotating arm above the third rack, which Miele has.

Our house is small; the main downstairs phone is on the wall directly above the DW; and in the adjoining, small family room, the TV and almost every seat is no more than 12 feet away from the DW. We need quiet, reliable, and not too fussy.

Additional assistance welcomed.

Time is based on my Miele La Perla II.

When the current generation Miele dishwashers came out I remember reading about the improvements done to the next generation 5000 dishwashers and a quicker or better washing(longer time) Express was not listed.

Miele is the only Riedel approved dishwasher. There really is no need to hand wash as long as hook up your Miele to cold instead of hot.

With modern phosphate free detergents and Miele you and your dishes are really better off not pre-rinsing. Without anything to attach to enzymes can etch certain dishware.

The Miele tabs aren't scored, as the original ones had been, so don't usually cut evenly in half for me (I rarely cut bread, or paper straight either!). I'll usually use the "larger halves" for my half-tab loads, and combine the "smaller halves", or use a large half and small half together, for my full-tab loads. Or, I'll add some of the loose powder that has settled at the bottom of the container to the soap dispenser, along with a half a tab. It's not an exact science, and doesn't seem to matter. The tabs are packaged in three boxes, banded together in a cardboard sleeve. I usually cut up a portion of one of those boxes at a time, so I spend about 5 min snipping (with my Wusthoff kitchen shears), and drop the newly cut halves into a 1/2 lb (?) deli container. If some of the halves fall out of their degradable plastic wrappers after cutting them, no biggie. I think the wrappers are only necessary for packing.

The Miele rinse aid light does go out after you add rinse aid (might not go out until after you power on/off). :)

Ditto what deeageaux said about pre-rinsing. Not only not necessary, but not a good thing with the newer DW detergents. The enzymes that were added to assist in cleaning when phosphates were removed, really do need foodstuff in order to avoid etched dishes and glasses (as well as enzyme build-up on the DW walls). We don't pre-rinse except for plates that were used with certain foods that tend to stain the dishes (cinnamon and avocado are culprits here), or for the occasional removal of caked on oatmeal or the like from bowls or spoons (and we are too lazy to just wipe it out). With some rare exceptions (and they are usually because of how items were loaded), everything comes out perfectly and beautifully clean.

We wash our PB Scott Zweisel wine glasses in our DW; Normal cycle (with a hot water hook-up). Our two Baccarat champagne flutes, and (Mikasa) crystal wine glasses are washed by hand, but mostly because we are afraid of breakage while loading/unloading them or the rest of the stuff.

Pots and pans are washed by hand, as are our knives. Just about everything else goes in, yes, even our pet dishes.

If you don't need a softener, you certainly can get a model without one, or just don't enable it if you choose a model that happens to have one.

We love the third rack! Stuff is dropped into slots per their "designated" (by me) "zone" while loading. When unloading the DW, I can grab a handful of teaspoons, or soup spoons, or forks... and just drop them back into the flatware drawer next to the DW (in the appropriate section of the drawer organizer).

We don't run our Miele every day--just the two of us here, as well. Sometimes I'll run a small load because a) I'm too lazy to wash the coffee maker parts by hand, b) it's been a few days, but we've eaten out perhaps, so still haven't filled the DW, and I don't want to leave it sitting any longer, or c) we had fish for dinner or lunch, and I won't leave fishy, smelly dishes sitting in the DW until the next day.

The only time our Miele makes much noise is as the motor is starting up or the DW is filling/draining water. While going full-throttle, it's pretty darn quiet (I believe newer models are even quieter).

Here's what I know. ... we pre-rinse (my husband does it and won't have it any other way); we hand-wash our good wine glasses and large pans etc.. ...
IMO under the usage circumstances you describe (of basically running prewashed dishware through your machine) you'd do far better economically to buy a $350 "builder's special" dishwasher than spend $$$$ on a Miele or Bosch.

FWIW, our Bosch 800 Plus DW was installed approx. 16 months ago. I ran the Express cycle once, for a small load. It took one hour including "drying" time.

Well said, Dadoes. It's like buying a Mercedes and then using it to drive down your driveway, get the mail and drive right back into your garage again.

I put everything in our dishwasher. Everything. I just scrape large chunks of food off and let excessive amounts of grease (pans) drain off. Fling in one finish Quantum tab and a teaspoon or regular dishwashing liquid for the prewash and that's it. I know, you're not supposed to put dishwashing liquid in the dishwasher but my loads are dirty enough to cause no sudsing at all. Salt and rinse aid are refilled every couple of months. By the way, the recommendation to use rinse aid dates back decades ago - even for US dishwashers.

I tried the Miele dishwasher detergent some time ago and while I liked it, the shipping alone was what a box of Quantum would cost me at the store.

Here are a couple of reviews for Miele and several Bosch dishwashers. They include cycle times. For what's it worth, I disagree with the way they load dishwashers - putting heavily soiled dishes sideways instead of at least tilting them towards the spray.

Miele Futura Crystal G5105SCU (loading pictures)
Bosch 800 Plus
More Bosch

Alex

Dados expressed what I was thinking from reading the OPs response. The Miele will do more than you seem to need/want.

We are just two and everything goes in there. No sense in spending the money if you wont use the capabilities. Or, if you dont want to use rinse aid.

I had Express in my Optima. It took about 45 minutes. I used it a lot and miss it.

I use Method tabs which are easy to cut. i get them at Target, Lowes, amazon or drugstore.com. Use half for a small or light soil load. I have a plastic container for them. no mystery there. For large heavy loads I use Finish Quantum. That does a great job but they have some bleach and we are on a septic. Method is friendlier.

I dont consider my DW fussy. its 10, never had a service call and its a workhorse.

But theres a learning curve with a Miele and things need to be done a bit differently. Not everyone wants to change to accommodate that. If not, no harm.

If you get the Miele, skip the pre rinse. The book says do not rinse- so I don't. The Miele has a sensor and is looking at water clarity to base the cycle length.

Your comments are very helpful, and I appreciate them all. You have thoughtfully helped this curmudgeon deal with Sticker Shock 2014 and the dread of having to devise a new plan for rack loading, while educating me on the vagaries of selecting soap tabs, cutting them, and using rinse aid. And as some of you have tactfully pointed out, we don't need a Mercedes when a golf cart might do the job.
But we do need quiet, as about 85% of our waking hours (when we're home -- we do go out still:-) are spent within about 15 feet of the dishwasher. We need reliable. And we need good service, while hoping we won't need it beyond correct installation.
There's a good appliance store in our area, family owned and operated for years, who carry appliances - more on the high end. They service everything they sell and are authorized for both Miele sales and service. We have dealt with them a long time. We trust them and their service people. Although they carry Bosch among other brands, they highly recommend Miele for dishwashers. Yes, I'm sure they make more money on a Miele. but maybe not on the service end.
If this investment lasts us 5 to 7+ years, I'd kick myself for trying to save a couple $100 now when I might have gotten a quieter, more dependable machine. I think I've decided for the Miele, but will take a closer look at their Classic model which is a good bit less than the Crystal. Just have to decide how much I want Express Wash, and how much I'm willing to settle for "Q1" instead of "Q2". Miele's website says both are 46 dBa, so I'd still love someone to clarify that for me. Again, many thanks.

Well, my Miele Optima is over 7 years old now.
We use the Express (short cycle), only, it takes about 40-45 minutes and the dishes come out great, so we've never seen the need to use anything longer.

We do have a whole house water softener so we don't mess with the salt, but we do use jet dry or its equivalent.
We've thrown about every soap know to mankind in it and never had a problem, alto after reading some bad experiencies with those "Gel Thingies", we quit using those.

We don't use the DW every day, thou, but I still like the idea that it is over 7 years old and never has needed service.

In fact I've been very lucky, none of my appliances have needed service. The icemaker died after 5 years in my Jenn-air fridge, but it was easily replaceable by ME, and was about $135, so I wasn't too upset by that.

I hope you have as good of luck as we've had with our appliances!

Gary

I have to chuckle at the references/concerns of "5 to 7 years."

My DishDrawer (of the bad reputation) will be 11 years in August and has not needed service. Usage varies from much as 4 days between runs to such as today when I ran it twice.

And it's on a different level of comparison, but my sister is using my previous KitchenAid which dates to January 1992 and also has never needed a repair.

You know your own needs and usage. However, Express is the one cycle the newer Mieles have that the older models, like my Incognito, did not.

When I had the Optima, I used Express a lot. Otherwise, you just have long cycles which are most conveniently run overnight, because they are long.

The difference between Q1 and Q2 is not what I would focus on.
My understanding is that it's not possible to actually hear the difference between those two sound levels.

To be optimally quiet, Mieles require a snug installation in 23-5/8" wide opening -- not the standard 24" like the current DW.

So a small amount of carpentry is likely needed to make the opening you have slightly smaller. It can be done with plywood and filler strips or in other ways.

Our Optima was properly installed and so quiet we could rarely tell when it was on -- I had to check for the red light signal.

You might discuss both issues with your appliance people.

And yes, sticker shock is definitely a factor. I purchased a Miele washer/dryer last year so I get it.

I had a Miele Novotronic for 8 years and it worked great when we replaced it purely based on looks (dh wanted stainless). Now we have the Miele Crystal and it is even more wonderful (and looks awesome too).

I ADORE how quiet our Mieles have been and that is very very important to me as we have an open concept kitchen and my "office" is the dining table near the dishwasher.

Programming - read the manual...it is not rocket science, just takes a little fiddling. You do it once then it's done.

Salt - find out whether you even need it. We don't due to soft domestic water supply and we have programmed our dishwasher accordingly.

Rinse Aid - dishwasher works fine without it, but dishes don't dry as well. With our new dishwasher I have the rinse aid setting programmed to the lowest setting and will work up until I am satisfied with the drying. You can disable the rinse aid indicator/setting if your tabs include rinse aid - mine don't. I think having separate rinse aid makes sense so you can calibrate it.

Tabs - Method Smarty tabs are easy to cut in half, but require a little pressure. Some of the "eco" tabs available to me in supermarkets and specialty food stores seem like they have less soap to begin with so they probably don't need to be cut in half. None of these have rinse aid built in. All of these tabs are cheap and readily available to me.

Rinsing/scraping - I doubt rinsing will cause damage to normal dishes, but I never rinse, only scrape. The Miele manual specifically says that rinsing is not necessary.

Stuff I put in the dishwasher - EVERYTHING! Even the worst pots and baking pans go in the dishwasher. Occasionally something doesn't come off 100%, in which case a 10 second scrub with a brush finishes the job.

3rd tray - LOVE

Express - mine is 35 min

Rococogurl wrote:

"The difference between Q1 and Q2 is not what I would focus on.
My understanding is that it's not possible to actually hear the difference between those two sound levels. "

Having had the Novotronic (Q1) and the Crystal (Q2) I agree with this.

We got the Crystal because it's the cheapest model that has stainless door and hidden controls - priorities for my dh.

Sticker shock - I have actually seen some great deals on used Miele dishwashers on Craigslist. If I had to pick between a North American brand new dishwasher and a used working order Miele, I'd pick the used Miele.