A large aspect of your equation is that quiet costs. The most quiet machines ARE the TOL models.

Just going by the data on the AJ Madison site, I can get a Fagor @ 47dB(A) for $799 or a Bosch @ 50dB(A) for $827. A KA @ 51dB(A) goes for $919. The cheapest Miele is $1299 with Q1 acoustics which I'm going to assume is at least as quiet as the Fagor. All of the above are based on models that accept custom panels which is what we really prefer.

So, I don't think quiet means that I have to go absolute TOL. We've heard a Bosch at my BIL's that I'm assuming was not the top of their line and it was as quiet as we need. It looks like the Fagor or the Bosch will do just as well. I know I'm missing something here as to what one gets for the $500 differential of the Miele over the Fagor. I'm just trying to figure out if that money buys me something that I need based on the way I posted that DH & I operate.

Jo Ann

dr j, since 20 years ago all the mid range machines are quieter. Get a mid range DW, with guts that were designed 10 or 12 years ago. They have two small pumps instead of one big one. About 5-10 years ago they were trying to sell this as "tall tub" and worth a whole lot more. I'll bet yours has one big pump only. Does it have a higher base floor than the tall tubs now out there?

The quietest dishwasher that would meet your needs is none at all. If you pre-rinse, pre-soak and pre-scrub and wash so much by hand, there's very little a dishwasher will do for you! In fact, you're not supposed to do all that with current dishwashers - the enzymes in the detergent need food on the plates to eat or they will etch the dishes. Put on a panel on your husband and be done with it :-)

Yes, I was going to add that doing all that prerinsing/washing/soaking/scrubbing is seriously unnecessary and doing a disservice to the dishes and dishwasher.

davidro1 - I don't know the answer to your question. The floor of our current DW is pretty high & doesn't look like the pix of tall tubs that I found on a quick scan.

Ummm, I'm way behind on DW technology, hence the questions of what do I get for the extra $$$ because I don't think it's noise reduction or reliability (Bosch vs Miele). BIL's Bosch is as quiet as we need. Consumer Reports says that the brand reliability for the Miele is 1 point better than Bosch, but that differences of less than 4 points aren't meaningful. CU doesn't have reliability data for the Fagor, but the AJ Madison reviews are glowing.

I'm not bashing the Miele or KA. I know that most of the owners adore them. But, if I get the noise level I want and cleaning from a unit that is cheaper, but in the same reliability range, what am I sacrificing by getting the cheaper DW?

What mid-range DW would you suggest given the parameters cited in my original post?

Thanks - Jo Ann

Bingo! As far as I can tell, DH uses the DW as a sanitizer more than a DW. However, this is how we've trained ourselves because we started using DW's in the 70's & the newest one we have is from ~1990.

Well, by the end of this house build, DH will be lucky if he only has a panel stuck on him. LOL! BTW - I'm not the one who insists on all this pre-rinsing, etc. I've read about the enzyme detergents needing food to work well, but he hasn't bought into the "theory".

So, I have to have quiet, I'd like to spend $1000 or less (but that's negotiable if Miele & KA are so much better), & cleaning dishes w/o all the pre-scrubbing would be nice. Suggestions?

Also, is there is "Dishwashers for Dummies" so I can understand what some of the new features & options are?

Thanks - Jo Ann

Seriously, for a given brand, you generally get two things as the price of the model increases - more cycles and quieter. Most of us don't use more than 1 or 2 cycles so that isn't a big issue.

The other big difference between European brands (Miele, Bosch) and American brands (KA) is heated dry. In the European DWs, you need to use rinse aid to get the dishes dry. In the American ones, you can turn heated dry off to save energy if you choose to.

I have a new Bosch and one of my requirements, when I was
looking for a dishwasher was the sound factor. The print
literature on my Bosch says that it is "virtually silent."
Mine is anything but that. Bosch sent two different service
guys to my house and they both told me that my machine
is noisy, but I have to accept it, because Bosch will do
nothing about, and they won't. I know a lot of owners of
older Bosch machines rave about how quiet they are, but
the newer machines are not.

Rayrose, model ####, please :)

Bosch DW may be produced in Germany and Spain (MOL / TOL) or in Turkey (basic models, with plastic sump seamed to stainless wall). The Ascenta series are made in North Carolina. So you can't generalize that way .......

Jo Ann, there were dishwashers in the 70s and earlier that did a fine job without prerinsing. Scraping, yes. Rinsing, no. I recall the first dishwasher my family had was a KitchenAid in 1975. We didn't prerinse then, and haven't with any dishwasher that followed.

Have your hubby take a look at this picture of how a cherry cobbler dish went into my machine, and how it came out on the Normal cycle.

If I were to try to answer your "what am I missing?" question, it would be to say, "Not much."

If you're going to keep doing what your doing, then buy based on sound and custom-panel installation.

IIRC, the Miele has customizable options for cycles and such. Also a built-in water softener. From the sound of it, I don't think these are anything that you need.

The Bosch is smaller on the inside than the KA.

Having not used one, I think the cuttlery tray is easier to fill and empty than a basket.

I'm with you on the quiet factor! I'm listening to the freight train, uh, DW, in my temporary apartment right now. It's awful! I can't wait to move into my new house in about a month! Even though we didn't get much choice in the appliances that come with the house, the GE mid-line DW has GOT to be better than the bottom of the line GE DW that's in this darn apt!

I know where you're coming from. I could have written your initial post, as the owner of a 20 year old KitchenAid dishwasher at our primary residence. Talk about noisey! But yes, it STILL cleans fine, and is somewhat removed from the main action, so I have not replaced it.

We have installed Bosch dishwashers at the new lakehouse that we built. We had a GE dishwasher at our old lakehouse and replaced it with a Bosch simply because the old GE made so much racket that no one could carry on a conversation within 50 feet of it when it was running. The new Bosch was so quiet, had absolutely no problems, and was such a pleasant change from our old KitchenAid and the GE, that we were sold on the brand. We have new top of the line Bosches at the new lake house (one full size and one 18" at the wet bar), but I've never even pulled out the manual to figure out how to use all of those fancy features that we doubtlessly paid extra for. Normal, quick wash and potscrubber are all I've used, and I have no idea how to change the height of the racks.

Yes, I know there are plenty of Miele lovers out there, and I'm sure they love their Mieles as much as I do Bosch. But I didn't think I wanted to have to go to the trouble to load my cutlery piece by piece into a tray simply to get it clean. Gimme a break. Late at night after a long dinner party, I'm happy if I can just cram stuff in the dishwasher and run a load before going to bed. (By the way, I also wash some things by hand, such as knives, cast iron, and any cookware that is not dishwasher safe.) That cutlery tray plus something about Mieles requiring a water softener (? not familiar with this, so maybe a user can clue you in?), the added cost, and the fact that we already had owned and liked a Bosch convinced me to go with Bosch for the new house.

Just my two cents worth...Ok, Miele defenders, have at it.

I don't believe you can compare noise ratings in dba between different makes, because there is no accepted standard noise measuring technique. You can compare different models within the brand.

We bought a new midrange Bosch for our new home. Compared to our old Bosch built Kenmore, it is a big step down. It is slightly, but only slightly noisier, but everything else about it is inferior.

The new Bosch rack system is junk. It is extremely hard to load compared to our old model. The controls feel cheaper, and one of the settings requires fiddling with multiple buttons, with no indication if the setting took or not.

The door is much harder to open on the new model. The old one has a finger operated latch. The new one is a brute force yank it open type. It is quite hard to open unless you are standing directly in front of it.

The sanitize light never comes on since we raised our water heater setting to 120. There is no way to tell if the in-line water heater if functioning or not.

The manual indicates there are a plethora of possible combinations which determines when and if the water is heated. Despite playing with the settings, I can no longer get it to indicate the final rinse is heated, although sometimes it seems to be from the amount of steam that comes out when the door is opened.

We won't be buying another Bosch if this one dies.

One other consideration is the rack configuration and which model best holds your household's dishes and pots. I think the Miele cutlery rack is wonderful and would pay $$$ extra for that, all other things being equal.

I love my cutlery rack on my KA KUDE60 dw. It opened up so much room on the bottom rack. That's gonna cost you and the quieter, the more expensive. With American brands, you have the option of using heated dry. I choose not to use the heated dry for energy savings. A dw with a food disposal will be noisier. My KA is larger and (imo) laid out better to hold more than Bosch. Bosch wouldn't accommodate my larger items. I'm super impressed with this machine! I paid just over $1000 before taxes and the 4 yr extended warranty. Well worth it!
Monica

Lot Bosch haters here.... We had a Bosch in our old house (DW was from like 2005 so not that old) and loved it. Extremely quite, worked well.

We bought one for our new reno thats in progress.

IMO a DW is not where I want to blow my budget. So long it cleans dishes and is relatively quiet, done and done. If your washing your dishes already, then frankly it does not matter what kind you buy, concentrate on a quiet one. And Bosch are quiet and IME reliable. Sure you hear people saying they had issues with it sometimes, but you will hear that for any appliance.

Personally I would never waste more than $1K on a dishwasher. I always hear people on here going on and on about you have to have a Meille. Hogwash. Maybe I am just ignorant, but I cant fathom what a Meille does for you for the extra loot. Some folks may say reliabilty. OK well it costs 2X the price of other DWs, so buy 2 MOL DWs and when one breaks, replace it with the other.

Just my $0.02

My mid-low end Bosch is very quiet and gets dishes sparkling clean. I don't like the racks on this particular model but have no complaints on how it cleans.

Previously I had a CHEAP 10 year old Kenmore that also got my dishes perfectly clean, including those with crusted-on foods. Friends with with their original older dishwashers thought THAT one was quiet compared to theirs. So if you have a 20 year old KA, any dw approaching $1k is going to seem very quiet.

I'm not generalizing. I have the Bosch Evolution model
SHE55M05UC. Also, when you pull out the bottom rack,
it comes off the track and is a pain to put back in. I will never buy another Bosch.

Ours is the SHE55M15UC, which replaced the SHE55M05UC. We had the same problem with the rack coming off the track. We learned to make sure to pull it out slow and straight.

As far as generalizing, every recent Bosch we looked at has the same basic lousy rack design, so it can be said their newest rack design generally sucks.

We were Bosch fans. Not anymore.

This is a very helpful discussion.

dadoes - what is the make & model of your dishwasher? Your family was lucky with the 1975 DW. The one I had from that era wouldn't get things sparkling w/o a bunch of pre-washing.

BIL's Bosch that impressed me with the quiet was from around 2005. I didn't load it, so I have no other insights.

Does anyone have any direct experience with Fagor DW's? As I remarked, the reviews on AJ Madison are universally glowing across all models. The model I'm looking at has heated dry unlike most European models.

Thanks - Jo Ann

For Fagor, check out Sunbeam. Although I don't know the details of how much the models may be identical. They have a lot in common!

Just curious -- I'm also purchasing a DW soon and was looking at the Kenmore Elite models (w/52 dBA, QuietGuard Ultra sound insulation). I haven't seen much, if anything, written about this brand.

Any advice to share? Thanks.

Fagor has not been around in the US long enough to have a track record.

Kenmore products are made by someone else. Some of the top end units are Bosch/Samsung, others are KA/Whirlpool. You can see the similarities in their sprayers and racks.

Drjoann,

from reading your OP and from seeing what you've been writing in other threads, here are my ideas for you.

"Is a cutlery tray a big deal? " Top rack, for cutlery: a great thing. Now that the patent has expired, any DW manufacturer can put it in their models. Suddenly now, they no longer "dis" it. People who have it say it is good. Before you run your next DW wash cycle, you can actually leave the cutlery in the rack for a long time and not worry about emptying it like a basket requires. Two years ago when I studied this topic, I found the 18" Miele could come with two of these racks so one can just slide the full clean rack into a shallow drawer and not even have to unload it. No other DW had this at that time. I got a cheaper DW in the end but I'm still envious.

"What are we missing if we get a modern, quiet DW, but don't go for the TOL ..." Hmmm, hard to be objective about this. If you are willing to be a proud driver of a VW (like, say, a Rabbit) instead of feeling you need or deserve any other more expensive Deutsches Auto, you have already answered this question.

Wherever you are, there is bound to be one store or small chain that gives great deals to people who call, email, or show up and say they are dealhunters in every way. I found a great deal this way. I said "any DW, reasonably modern and quiet" . I was also buying other appliances. When I returned 9 months later I got a deal on another purchase. It all worked well, and my DW criteria might have been just the right starting point.

The cost accountant in each company has to allocate costs based on a number of factors that have no correlation to the user experience in terms of dB(A) or drying or cleaning. A model that has not been re-worked will not have associated R&D costs to recuperate, so its distributor cost will be low. How will you know? Never can. Just declare yourself as the low-cost buyer you will be. Any DW, that is mid-range and quiet.

If you want heated drying, it will have a steam vent in front.
If you want condensating drying, it will not vent steam in front, it will be "greener" and take more time to finish a wash.

I think DW technology is mature now so there is no compelling reason to spring for the highest price DW's.

hth

I went through the same thought process it sounds like you are when shopping for our dishwashers. The cost difference was doubled since we needed 2. I wanted reasonably quiet with clean dishes. But we'd had some history to help us out a little.

We'd had a Bosch in our last house, which did a great job. We were always opening it when it was going, because we couldn't hear it with conversation or kitchen prep going on. When we added a 2nd dw in the dining buffet of that home, we bought a TOL Maytag, since I thought it sounded great to try heated dry and to have the food grinder...and a cutlery rack. I understand that it was a knockoff of the Miele and not a good representation, but it robbed space from the other racks, limiting room for full size dinner plates and taller glassware. It also didn't clean as well as the Bosch, and even though it was boasted as Maytag's quietest, it was NOT quiet.

When shopping for this house and kitchen, I only considered Bosch and Miele. Was tempted by Miele, but since I could get the mid-range Bosch (each for $800-900) with all the cycles I would ever use (not their quietest, but plenty quiet enough), I couldn't see paying $1000 more (total) for two of the lower end Mieles (with cutlery rack). I don't know if there are any perfect racks that load great for every possible situation, but we get along OK with the ones we have. I've never had a Miele to compare to, so do not regret my decision.

bopfletch, when I went to buy a dw last July, I had my sights set on a Bosch because of all the raves here. Came home with a KA. I didn't like the rack layout or the interior size of the Bosch. Since then it seems the tide has turned on Bosch and there's more rants than raves. Lots of repair issues and customer service complaints. LOVE my KA dw but you couldn't pay me to have another KA oven! :o
Monica

Kenmore products are made by someone else. Some of the top end units are Bosch/Samsung, others are KA/Whirlpool. You can see the similarities in their sprayers and racks.

Bosch no longer makes any of the Kenmore dishwashers, unless they have resumed doing so in the few months since we shopped for a new one. I wish they still did. Our old Bosch built Kenmore Elite is a much better unit than our new Bosch branded DW.

davidro1 - It looks like the Sunbeam was made by Fagor, but they don't seem to sell them anymore. I did find an old link on the AJ Madison site & it was another glowing review of the machine.

I think I'm going to go with the simplest Fagor. If it doesn't work out, then we'll find something else and not be out that much money. It's quiet, has an adjustable top rack which is something we would actually use and can wash either the top or bottom independently which is another thing that would work well for us.

I'd love to just be able to go into a store & say give me your best bet for a DW that's quiet and that works reasonably well. Unfortunately, I don't think I can pull it off. This is for an entire kitchen of appliances for our new house in SC being built while we still live in TX.

And, I have such a hodgepodge of things I want: a pro-style range and hood, a Samsung fridge versus a SZ or Liebherr and a Sharp MW drawer + 24" Fagor wall oven vs. an Advantium or Miele or Gagg speed oven. The mass market guys aren't going to have the range & hood, the higher end guys don't want to sell me a simple sharp MW drawer and everyone is going to struggle to supply Fagor. (On the website, Fagor doesn't have an appliance retailer within 100 miles of Houston, TX.)

But, having a custom house with a custom kitchen which is likely to be the last one I will ever design means that I get to have it customized to me. The next person can do what they want. There is plenty of room on the fridge wall to rip out a built in plus some cabinets to put in the SZ. Ditto for changing out the MW drawer or DW.

However, I am going to resist putting a panel on DH. Instead, I'm going to show him the cherry cobbler picture ( about to clip it) and tell him with a new house and new kitchen and a new DW can come some new ways of doing things. Wish me luck with that. ;^P

Thanks - Jo Ann

Here is a link that might be useful: Sunbeam DW

Drjoann,

I was impressed by the layers of soundproofing I saw on Fagor and Sunbeam DW's when I did my research.

Also, two years ago I didn't find many that had the partial wash of one rack only. A great feature.

--

If I understand your situation, here is your shopping list, which you copy and email individually to each place you think will do:

DW: Fagor model ___, or
whatever else you recommend that's quiet, mid range, no big feature set, works well, and is a good deal
Oven1: 24" Fagor side door
Oven2: Advantium
MW: Sharp drawer 24"w
Range: pro-style
Exhaust hood : good or better
Fridge: Samsung or Liebherr

Purchase while in TX, summer 2010.

Delivery to SC, late 2010. (Warranty dates start on delivery.) No charge for storage.

--

Whoever gets this email from you will lap it up.
If they don't have one of the lines, it's no big deal.

You delay purchasing the small things until they satisfy you on the big ones first.
Many big retailers will love to have your business, and they'll deliver to SC.
Try typing "appliance Alabama" into a search engine.

On the topic of pre-washing dishes before putting them into the dishwasher - just don't.

It's really a waste of water and time. The only things I pre-rinse are dishes soiled with fish or garlic and the like. Since we run our DW every two to three days, these items would otherwise stink up the machine way too much.

Pots go into the dishwasher - for sure! Pans? Not really. The detergent degreases the Teflon surface too much so you have to add oil etc. to whatever you're frying the next time.

Fine china? Yes! Quality is the key here. If the decor is protected by glazing, no problem. If the decor is painted onto of the glazing, it will probably wash off after many cycles. We have some cups from which the blue sky (they have a landscape painted on them) has pretty much washed off. They must have been through the dishwasher a hundred times, though. It's a bit of a gamble with glasses. Some of our glasses have etched - cheap or expensive, didn't matter.

I'll attach some pictures of our dishwasher - it's a Siemens (same as Bosch). I know this model is not available in the US but it just goes to show how well modern dishwashers clean. This load was just a test to see how well our dishwasher and the expensive Miele detergent would clean.

Alex

Here is a link that might be useful: Slideshow