Your family and friends don't live in your house. They're not paying the mortgage, or for its upkeep. You are, and you have to live with any mistakes caused by you and/or your contractor's haste.

Take all the time you need.

And so what if they don't think you need heated floors? You do, so get them. Years from now, after your feet are toasty warm instead of icy cold every day after stepping out of the shower or tub, you'll be glad you didn't give in to somebody's nagging.

IME, contractors usually recommend whatever they're most familiar with, whatever is in stock at their warehouse, or whatever is easiest and quickest to install. Which often isn't what's really best for you.

BTW, I have no idea what Kerdi is either...

My family is...oblivious. And impatient! IMHO, you can never plan too much. That's why I love this forum! Personally, I'd rather spend my time than my money for something as complex and pricey as a bath remodel. My last big project was 10 years and 2 houses ago. I asked GC (personal friend) about radiant floor heat. He looked at me like I had 3 heads, and talked me out of it. I was too naive to insist, but I learned the hard way. Do your research then do it your way!

Everybody thinks i am obsessed with remodeling. for my next bathroom i must have spent more than 30 hrs online looking for the perfect faucet! now add to that the stone, shower controls, lighting, vanity, toilet etc..

I love to plan months ahead of time and get all the materials into the home before a remodel.

Then there is the time on GW :) Countless hours but priceless :)

Your home will be lived in, by you or future owners, for many many years. The decisions you make now, based on lots of careful research, will pay off for many decades. Keep researching - and good for you!

I took forever planning and researching my kitchen remodel. Friends and family thought I was making too much out of it, but everyone loves how it turned out.
I am doing the same thing with my bath remodel. I have even drawn it in 3-D Solidworks. When it is all over, it will look great and I know it will have been done right.
It's your bath, and you're the most important person to satisfy.

Thanks, Guys.

Keep those cards and letters coming. I was beginning to feel a little blue...and overwhelmed.

Anne

P.S. It's good to know I'm not the only one fighting the "non-believers." :)

A few extra comments:

lee676 - You are so right! Contractors do tend to give you the quickest answers to send you on. I've got a pretty good one, tho...THIS TIME.

anne & pharoah - This forum IS addicting AND priceless. Maybe I should spend a little more of my 'research' time on the net looking for products than enjoying all the comments I read here. But here is where I get all the good ideas to go look on the net for products. Vicious cycle.

kevin1727 - That 3-D Solidworks sounds pretty cool. What is it? On the other hand, maybe I don't need to know. :)

Thanks again, Everyone, for all the encouragement.

We are remodeling our kitchen and adjacent half-bath, and my DH thinks I am stressing out way too much by researching everything myself. His quote is "then why are we paying those people?". By researching things myself, I know that I am getting what I really want, and will be subjected to less "suprises" when it is finished. Two years ago, we had our old wood deck replaced with a screened-in porch, and ended up with PLASTIC railings and posts because I thought the GC would be using a Azek/Trek type material when I asked him for "low maintenance" decking. Hindsight is always 20/20, and it's usually not pretty. :) Ignore those naysayers and do what's comfortable for you.

DH knows that we get a much better product if I know what I am doing. There's no way in a million years I would trust my contractor to know the best practices of everything he is doing. Even though he's a great guy and a good craftsman, there are still the occasional things that he learned "wrong" - such as what kind of plywood to use as a subfloor for tile. That I had to research and luckily when he was putting down 1/2" exterior grade stuff something looked wrong to me and I was able to correct it. Thank goodness he is such a great guy that he has no problem at all doing it "my way" when we talk about it, either.

Most contractors basically go by how they learned to do it from a predecessor who taught them the trade. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's not. Especially when you are talking about something that 1) another trade relies on and 2) won't be inspected for best practices by your building inspector, it's good if you know what you are looking at and the way things are supposed to go together. Many contractors know what they know and know what they've done all of their lives - some of this is good, some not so good. I don't believe in general they are trying to screw you but there isn't any kind of continuing education required to learn what's new. You will still find contractors putting greenboard in showers (this is still ok by code in some places I believe, so it wouldn't get flagged by the building inspector) for example but we all know from around here that this is not a good practice.

IMO you'd be crazy NOT to research things to death. Your home is important and I don't know about you but my bathroom is a HUGE investment for us. I can't think of anything else I would just drop $25k on and not know the ins and outs of before doing so. Buying a car - there's no way I'd just trust what the salesguy told me without doing independent research. Why should a remodel project be any different? The fact that they tend to be so complex and have so many parts that require research individually just makes it that much more important that you cover all of your bases.

Frankly, I think the people who just hand over the check to a contractor and say "make it happen" are the crazy ones, but then I'm a control freak. :)

I heard a little of that from some friends when we were doing our mini-remodel in the kitchen. I just looked them in the eye and said, "I've never done this before and I don't have the money to do it again, so yes, I'm researching. And reading comments from people who have actually used this faucet, bought this granite, etc., on message boards, is a tremendous help to me because my contractor is going to collect his check and walk away!" They pretty much quit the hassling after that.

And BTW.......my floor would NOT have been laid on the diagonal if I hadn't read a ton of comments here, because my DH assumed it would cost a bunch more money (a little more, but not that much) and the contractor didn't suggest it. Also, he planned to do a straight brick lay on my backsplash tumbled stone because most of his clients are just doing the basics. When I handed him my printed photo of Monicakm's kitchen backsplash and asked if it would be ok to do that, he was very pleased and also pleased with how it turned out. I would have never given the finished look a thought till after without this board. Even now, there are things that I WISH I had added/done, but I just didn't think it through well enough. My kitchen was fairly simple and not too expensive, but sometimes it's those small things that help things look so much nicer.

Red

I can't tell you the number of things that I researched and found that I wanted or wanted done right, that my contractor/workers wouldn't have done or done wrong. I did a lot of the job that my contractor should have been doing but then it would have been done his way not mine. For ex.,
-he would have installed a broan exhaust fan (cheaper, but everything I read said it was noisy and not as good as panasonic. Contractor is now telling clients they should get the Panasonic based on my research),
-when home depot discont'd the tiles I wanted, he would have ordered them and we would have waited - I found them in stock at a small tile store on the other side of town),
- he would have used drywall in the shower, I insisted on cement board.

The list goes on and on. My only regret is not insisting he get a new tiler when I knew his guy was not doing what I asked. As a result, I will spend spring break digging grout out of inside corners and replacing with caulk.

My neighbour who was also having a reno done at the same time said "hey, that's we're paying them to worry about". If I had done that who knows how many more mistakes we'd be fixing.

You can tell your "support" group that you will be available for consultation *for a fee, to recognize all the hours of extra training you undertook* when they get to their projects :)

I did burst out laughing at "doesn't tile waterproof a shower" -- no, sweetie, only on Designed to Sell :)

mommielady,

Regarding the electric infloor heating. I installed it in my kitchen, and absolutely love it. The brand I used was Warmly Yours, and I have had no problems with it. The wire and its insulation seems quite sturdy, and they provide a small device that you connect to the wire during the install the will immediately signal if the wire is broken.

bob cville,

Thanks for the encouragement because I really want heated floors and each day, I switch sides straddling the fence. I have seen Warmly Yours on the net, but have not priced them. I think SunTouch may be the best product that I have checked, but they seem pricy compared to Thermasoft. (About 1/2 price less with the current sale.)

However, Thermasoft is where Flyleft had all her anguish, and Codnuggets has recently had a 30 SF mat to go out after one year. Before then, I had almost decided on Thermasoft. Now, I just don't know. Suntouch makes the Premier Underfloor line for Costco, so I am presently researching that, as well.

How long have you had Warmly Yours, and if I may ask, what was your investment? I may as well add Warmly Yours to my research list. Wonder what my "negative support group" will say about More Research?! :))

bob,

Forgot to add. I think ALL of the manufacturers provide the 'warning sensors.' Flyleft used the 'warning device' during her install of the Thermasoft product, checked it more times than the manufacturer recommended, and it never once warned her that there was a broken wire. Talk about raising the confidence level of someone like me who is straddling the fence and is prone to 'cold feet', pardon the pun. :)

Mine was installed in the kitchen so it was fairly large. The kitchen required 210 sq ft of tile, the Warmly yours mat was somewhat smaller than that since you are not supposed to install it beneath cabinets or appliances. The mat was 18" wide by 78 feet long, so a total of 117 square feet, and the price was $1173 + $169 for the programmable thermostat.

I installed it in May of last year, but I didn't install the thermostat and run it until October, since there's no need for a warm floor during a Virginia summer.

The nice thing about the break detector they provide is that you don't have to check anything. You hook it up and turn it on, and it continuously monitors the wire for either of the two possible faults (broken conductor or internal short) and if one occurs it will start buzzing loud enough that you can hear it across the room.

I was also very happy with their tech support people. Several questions arose while I was laying it out and installing it, and they responded very quickly.

hang in there and stick to your guns :) tell your friends to watch Holmes on homes if they want a taste of what can happen if you don't know enough to watch over things. and those are just the worse case scenarios... you want your home to look the way you have it planned - there's nothing wrong with being knowledgable enough about the process to ensure that happens.

i have a friend helping me who is in the commercial construction trade. he was tempted at first to scoff at my ideas, since i learned about them "on the internet", but after Bill & Mongo replied to a couple of his questions with answers that more than satisfied him of their knowledge, he has been very receptive. he says i know more about some of these things than he does now! :)

of course, he was already sold on the idea that a lot of contractors just come in to get work done instead of to create a quality product, so that part i didn't have to convince him of. that sounds like the issue with your "supports". i'm surprised that they have been so lucky with contractors in the past!

i think it would be great to pass all of this researching/quality control responsibility over to someone, but there are so many people who would *tell* you they will do what you want and not actually do it, that it's hard to find that one diamond. plus there is the communication issue... only you know how things look in your head. sometimes we don't communicate that vital detail when passing our requests on... happens with me & my friend all the time. we each are assuming certain facts to be "obvious" when they are not at all obvious to the other person :)

you are not alone!! :) if it helps you to do the research, do it.

lisa

Thanks, lisa,

I've said it before and I'll say it again, EVERYONE on this forum is just wonderful, and I don't make absolute statements! Was that just an absolute statement?

I so appreciate all of the encouragement, it's just that the research does take a lot of time, especially while you are still trying to go about your 'life as normal', with work, family and other pressures. And my contractor is really rarin' to go this week and I still feel a little 'naked' because all my decisions have not been made. Just gotta do your best, I suppose.

Haven't kept up with your posts, lately, but I truly admire what you are undertaking in your remodel. I'm not DIY on this level, but I do a lot of smaller things. I can't fathom what it would be like if I were researchin' it AND workin' it!! :)

bob,

Please tell me that as you were putting in your warm floors, there was never a reason that your warning device went off to indicate that you had a 'broken conductor of internal short'? Tell me that a salesperson told you what the warning sound that you would hear "across the room" would sound like, but that there was never a reason for YOU to hear it, because YOU never had any 'broken conductors or internal shorts' while you installed your mats, DID YOU?

How many did you have Bob, and how did you fix them?

Anne

thanks anne - i am definitely learning a lot through this process :)

just wanted to add - i have been delayed on this project in part due to my friend's schedule, but i have found that while i am at times antsy to get the process going at full speed, if i had done it that quickly when we started, i would have made a TON more mistakes and made some poor choices.

if you don't feel comfortable with the pace, slow it down. you're uncomfortable for a reason... as long as it's not just nerves or stress, listen to that feeling & slow things down until you feel confident with the decisions & the pace.

i know... easy to say, hard to do... but worth it

lisa

mommielady,
SolidWorks is the 3D design/drafting program we use at work to design machinery. Using it at home helps me learn some new tricks to use at work. It is definitely overkill.
But it is neat to see how the bath looks with different colors and textures.
Here are a couple pictures I generated.

My DH has been thrilled with the things I've learned on these forums. His favorites are the concrete board for the shower, the Panasonic fan and the timer switches from Lutron. (and that's just from the bathroom forum)I've been talking to glass companies in my area about shower screens, but they haven't made their way to the Midwest yet, and the people look at me like I'm nuts. I found out about Kerdi too late for the last bathroom, but I'm sure ready for the next one!

I did not have any breaks or shorts during installation nor afterwards. The alarm did go off once when my dog bumped the the wire causing the detector device to fall off the stud it was perched on, which ended pulling one of the wires loose from the detector. It happened right as I was pressing a tile down into the thinset, and my heart just about stopped.

bob,
That's a GREAT story, and one I am GLAD to hear!! My heart about stopped just reading it! I am "really" pleased with the ending, however...so much better than if you had had install problems.

kevin, kevin, kevin!
3D Solidworks is so fine!! Somehow, I knew it would look just like that. Did you post earlier with a similar 3D design of a bathroom? When I get ahead of these tile guys coming tomorrow, I might send you my layout so you can "use MY design to learn some new tricks for work!" :) I would love to see it mocked up in 3D.

I've got a little secret for you. I bought a laymen's version of something similar about 4 years ago ..."1-2-3 Home Design" or something like that. Never could quite figure it out. ...Wonder where it is now?? :)

lisa.
I think I will remember your good advice about slowing down the pace, just before I hyperventilate from the stress! :)

sjt2900,
Don't you just feel 'really alone' when people in the industry look at you like you're nuts when you ask them about new innovations in THEIR profession?

Again, Thanks so much everyone.

sjt2900,
Not that I really NEED any more knowledge, but just what are Lutron Timer Switches?

Like SJT2900, my husband is thrilled beyond belief at the information I've gained from this forum.

He says "You get on that forum, learn everything you can and you be the brains of this remodel, I'll be the brawn.
Just tell me where to cut, where to stick, where to slab and I'll do the grunt work."

But I can't find a single person, male or female, family, friend or aquaintance who revels in my knowledge and joy at the mere mention of Toto toilets, Kerdi or Listello.

Every single visitor that has come into my home (friend or family) since my Toto has been installed gets asked if they need to pee.
I just want them to feel the same excitement I feel when I use my Toto, to feel that exuberance when they touch the seat and it goes down all by itself.

I serve them coffee, ice tea, anything that 'stimulates' and again an hour later I ask "Anyone have to pee yet?"

All they end up doing is saying "Uh.... no, but thanks for asking" all while hey roll their eyes and look at me like I have three heads.

They might not understand me (us on this board) but at least they could fake it.

Sit on my dern Toto, dangit!
Don't they know the word 'placate' ?
Fake it if you have to but show some enthusiasm for MY enthusiasm! LOL

MommieLady,
Thank you for starting this thread. I really, really enjoyed reading the responses.
It also felt so good to vent and to know I'm not alone! lol

amity,

You are so-ooo hilarious. I was sitting here laughing out loud at your post! AND you are so right. NOT A SINGLE PERSON seems to share your excitement when you learn something new! I have no idea why they are not just thrilled to learn about listellos, nor why they can't pronounce it.. Lis -TELL-O. They just don't get it.

I think I will just get mad and keep ALL my new information to myself! That'll show 'em. And NO ONE who scoffed will be allowed to use my new Bidet, either.

THAT should cripple them for life! lol

After many walk throughs with various contractors I can say Garden Web is an invaluable tool for dealing with the stresses of building or remodeling. Good contractors appreciate that you know what they are talking about. Bad contractors back off real quick when you can cite data and alternative strategies for their proposed "solutions." How did anyone get anything done before Garden Web?

I found this site 4yrs ago accidently when I was researching toilets for our remodel. Boy, did it open up a can of worms for every other purchase I have made since. After researching I chose the Kohler Cimarrom. At the time it was such a new model that the Kitchen and Bath place we used didn't even know about it yet. I had to print the page off of Kohler's web site to show him what I was talking about because the catalog he had wasn't up to date. I think it is a great thing to be able to communicate with others about their experience with different products. In the past the only information we had was through Consumer Reports, which IMO is not a real life day to day experience of a products performance. At first DW thought that I was obsessed with plumbing fixtures but now every time we are about to make a major purchase or do some type of renovation she tells me to do the research. Some people are more comfortable being lead by their contractor which is fine because they don't research. What they don't know doesn't hurt them. This is great for the contractor's profit because the price for labor is the same whether he uses qualtiy material or builder grade.

My husband was literally angry at me for spending so much time researching stuff for our house. I quickly learned that I had to specify EVERYTHING or risk getting the cheapest garbage HD has to offer from my builder. It was a year long struggle with our builder even though things were quite friendly between us.
I spent countless hours online and made several trips into town to look at stuff. I think it was seeing me on the computer that really drove my husband nuts. But now that we're pretty much finished, he brags and raves about what a good job I did on the house!

I wish I could say the process was fun, but I never imagined I'd be called upon to make pretty much all of the decisions. It was extremely stressful. Don't even talk to me about lighting! Those ahah! moments, like when you find that perfect faucet, are pure bliss!

The GW is an awesome place. I found it when we were doing our kitchen remodel. I had the carpenters scratching their heads alot...(I am my own GC which can be stressful but also rewarding.)
I once visited a custom cab showroom and asked them about "task lighting" and they said they didn't carry that brand!
When I started the bathroom research, I asked a tile/flooring place about subway tile. They had never heard of it. Nor had they heard of Kerdi.
To top it off with that place...I gave them a material list of tile (I had picked out in a bigger city) and I asked for an estimate. She came out and measured and that's it. She gave me the total $$ over the phone and when I asked her to send me the material estimate breakdown, she refused saying "You might take all my hard work and go someplace else." WHAT THE H@LL!!..all she did was measure! I decided to go to a good independent tile guy. So far, his estimate is less.
What I am saying is without the help from this forum, I would be taking their advice and "expertise" as gospel.
So...call me anal!!
Diane

piegirl,
I admire your tenacity. We are trying to finish this remodel over the next month, (an agressive goal) because it was already pretty close to the end when I resumed it with this new contractor, or so I thought. That was BEFORE GW! Now that I know so-ooo much more, everyone is in Real Trouble!

The next few months are the busiest of the year in my profession. When I resumed the idea of finishing the bath in late November, I thought we might have it done by Christmas. When I decided to change tubs, (I learned about GW somewhere in here) I was sure it would be done by January. Once I learned about Panasonic WW, Kerdi, heated floors and towel racks, February has eluded me!

Ah, March through May ... my busy season. When we a photographing high school seniors for their graduation invitations and photographing their Proms, and they are 'ravenous' to get their 'stuff '! THAT'S WHEN I AM FINISHING MY BATHROOM! Pretty smart on my part, huh? :( I would have been much smarter to wait until summer, but I was fearful that something else would happen to deter me. And besides, I PROMISED my daughters a soak in that wonderful Tub! So if you guys notice me 'going a little crazy' over the next few weeks when I write in to vent, just say to yourselves, "she's gonna be awright, it's her busy season, you know!"

So piegirl, if you spent 'hours' researching for a whole house over a year's time, you will be my inspiration! I will try to remember that this is just part of the process. And you're right, those victorius AHAH! moments are awesome!

hamster,
I laughed out loud at the "task lighting" brand of lighting products. It IS wonderful to have some place to go to ask even the simplest questions.

I have a feeling that when I show my 'doubting Thomas' friends some of these posts, they will just tell me that I have found a bunch of electronic friends who are just as anal and nuts as I am! They, too, will not be invited to the "Bathwarming Party"! I think everyone who has worked as hard as we have should throw one!

Mommielady

mommielady--Sorry! I meant Leviton timer switches. We use these for the heat lamps in the ceiling and the Panasonic fan that also has not made its way to the Midwest.

http://www.smarthome.com/4267i30.html

Here is a link that might be useful: Timer Switch

sjt2900,

Been off the forum for a couple of days, trying to stay abreast of the different trades coming in on my remodel.

Thanks for the info on the switches. I don't think I want any more knowledge about anything! Looking into the cost of buying Kerdi products, I read a post wherein Mongo and others are saying the costs could run from $1700 to $2000. I believe that includes labor, too. After I fainted ... and recovered, I started wondering where I need to eliminate items in this rapidly escalating budget. :))

You know, "Research" is a dangerous thing.

mommielady

I believe that cost was for labor for building the whole shower from soup to nuts, not just the kerdi part of it. My tile guy said that it would save about $170 in labor to go from using kerdi to a roll on product, not counting the about $300 worth of materials (rounding liberally). Some parts of that quote you gotta pay for if you want a tiled shower regardless of how the shower is built, like building the shower pan and tiling the walls (I'm not sure if that includes the hanging of durock or what).

You're right about the rapidly escalating budget though. I started off thinking if I was good I could do this project for about $18k, I'm up to $25k now and that's with some pretty major cuts. One thing I wouldn't cut is the kerdi though. We are remodeling our bath because of water leaking into our living room below. That's not going to happen again if I have anything to say about it (it was not leaking from the shower though!) So we are using $1.50-2/sf tile instead of some of the beautiful but more expensive tile that makes me whimper and drool, but our shower will be built really well.

Thanks, kgwlisa,

I was just thinking that wherever I cut, it should NOT BE ON THE KERDI, for the same reasons that you mentioned. These are my wall sizes: one 8' x 28"; one 8' x 52"; one 8' x 66"; and one 26" x 52". Does any one have a ball park on MATERIALS for a kerdi shower such as this one. Can anyone 'guesstimate' the cost of Kerdi corner pieces and the drain? What else do I need besides thinset? How much of that?

Still, I REALLY hate the thought of scaling back. Ahh, Discipline, where are you when I need you?

Yes, and it's worse now that I stumbled onto this site! Sometimes I rue the day I found you....I can get lost for hours reading & seeing products I now just have to have that I didn't even know existed.

hhireno,

I SO understand, but my budget doesn't. It has been shot deeply in the foot with the addition of heated floors, Kerdi waterproofing, Panasonic WW (even when I had a Nutone roughed-in) and other stuff that I am too embarassed to mention.

My rationale is "if this remodel doesn't kill me, I'm gonna die in this house! When am I ever going to get the chance to do this again? I NEED ALL of this stuff!" And then I rationalize 'just one more' wonderful purchase. I am proud to say, that I have turned a deaf ear to a few temptations and said that enough was enough.

The lessons learned here have been invaluable. My home spa will be soooo much more wonderful than it was BEFORE GW. I am most proud about having learned of the structural improvements like the Kerdi and heated floors. I do tend to get lost in the posts and could linger here for hours, however. It is more than addictive.

And if I were more kind, I would not tell you about this thread. But "What was your best remodeling decision?" is what started it all for me. It was a great thread naming everyone's best succeses and greatest regrets. THAT one was filled with research!

ABSOLUTELY!

could fill pages - but as Popeye said "I am what I am"

LOL ; )

Lately, I've been reduced to hiding all my information from my family and the other naysayers, like a thief in the night. It doesn't help that things have run into the usual few delays. They will say, "if you hadn't been trying to ADD all this stuff, it woulda been done by now!" Such Antagonists.