Marcantonio, Grow Carnival instead of Celebrity. It has better flavor. Celebrity and Carnival are from the same breeding program and share 3 parents. Of all the hybrids available, I grow exactly five: Amelia, Carnival, Big Beef, Ramapo, and Sungold. I trial a few others yearly, but so far none have made the grade year in year out except these.

JD, I too thought Lyuda's was indeterminate until I carefully studied the plant this year. It is very clearly determinate with an unusual trait of lenghthening like a paste tomato first, then filling out until it is pretty much round. I really like it for the thick walled meaty tomatoes. Send me an email and I'll arrange to get you a few seed.

DarJones

Celebrity, like Early Girl, isn't worth the effort of growing it. ;)

Honestly, there are so many, many really great tomatoes out there! It is sad to see folks keep coming back to these blah varieties that were bred for shipping and market rather than for eating. I can only assume they do so because they have no idea what they are missing.

Dave

Legend was bred specifically for Late Blight tolerance ( P infestans) and ask almost anyone who has grown it about taste and I don't think you'll find positive comments.

And I agree with Dave re Celebrity, etc.

Personally I don't think much of Black Seaman or its look and taste alike Southen Nights.

I think the best large fruited variety that's determinate is Sophie's Choice, by a wide margin over the Glacier's and Sub Artic thises and that's and many other dets.

Take a look at the det ones listed at Sandhill b'c Glenn has a special interest in maintaining the older commercial det varieties as well as non commercial determinates.

Some choices you'll see are:

Benewah
Bison
Bradley
Burpee Gloriana
Burpee Quarter Century
Canabec ROuge
Canabec Super
Dana
Hanky Red
Kootenai
Manitoba
Maskabec

..... and I'm tired of typing but there are lots more. For many of them Glenn has indicated which seem to taste best.

Carolyn

digdirt...........ok, please tell me which great varieties I am missing out on when I raise Early Girl (smile).

I always grow a couple of Early Girl vines because when they are fully ripe they a very flavorful, produce ALL summer like mad right up to frost, are tolerant of disease, earliest to ripen for me, and the only thing going against them that I can think of is their 4 oz. size. I admit they are not very tasty unless they are fully ripe.....maybe some folks pick them a couple days too soon.

I also tried Early Goliath for the first time this year. They were not nearly as early as Early Girl, but otherwise I am pleased with them. However, I like EARLY! Do you have any suggestions as to varieties I am missing out on that are early?

Owen

Picardy

digdirt...........ok, please tell me which great varieties I am missing out on when I raise Early Girl (smile).

Seriously?? How about all the ones listed above? To which I'll add Grushovka, Marglobe, Applause, and Florida 91 - another one of our personal favorites. ;)

Dave

digdirt........I guess I should have added that I am interested only in EARLY and indertimates.

Thats ok though, I know you don't know of any that beat Early Girl and have all her other good traits (smile). I love her, and will continue to love her......she is, simply put, the world's BEST EARLY tomato.
Just eat her when she is mature and enjoy her fine flavor right up till frost takes her home to sit on her throne in tomato heaven (smile).

I grew New Yorker, Cambell's 1327, and Heinz 1429 this year. Most ended up in the canning pot. I think each had at least decent flavor(I'm not good at keeping notes). Cambell's 1327 is quite meaty. I find determinates to be very useful for canning, as they ripened a good portion of their fruit over a 3 week period for me this year. The three I mention produced nice looking medium-sized red fruit. I plan on devoting a greater portion of my tomato crop next year to determinates. I'll likely grow the three I grew this year, as well as trial some others.

I grew Danko this year (a red heart introduced to SSE in 2007 by Carolyn). It was det (for me), got to about 4' and put all of it's energy into pumping out fruit. First to ripen after Matina and Black Cherry- first full size to ripen- typical fruit is about 12 oz. Very good taste.

This is my list I'm keeping when I come across early, cool tolerant tomatoes (you wouldn't think I'd need one in SoCal but I'm interested for a fall crop):

Alba: This is a little tiny small plant with quite big tasty tomatoes in trusses of 6 15 on each, ca 70 cm high with 28 cm long and 15 Â 20 cm wide leaf. Give the plant some support so the tomatoes donÂt lay directly on the ground. Healthy tomatoes with a good shelflife, the tomatoes have a fresh good taste with a nice aftertaste. When the tomatoes start to mature they have a white colour and finally when they are fully mature they have a nice red colour. This Russian strain is well adapted to cold weather and gives a good harvest even in cool weather. A good strain for short season areas.

Betta: Short early Russian plant that look like a smaller version of Siberia, 50-55 cm high with small 12-15 cm long leaf. This strain grow well in cool weather and set fruit in very low temperature, good production of tasty midsize tomatoes in trusses of 6-7. Give the plant partial shade in the middle of the day when the sun is strongest. Good plant for short season area.

Bison: Early high yielding plant, popular when it was introduced in 1937, short ca 80 cm high bushy plant with 15-20 cm long leafs. Tasty midsize meaty tomatoes in big trusses with ca 12-15 on each, good standard tomato that grows well in cool weather.

Bradley: very early, Det, 2 oz. fruits heavy yields. Earliest tomato in 525 grown in 2005

Canabec Super: very early, Det, 4 to 6 oz. globe-shaped pinkish red fruits from Quebec.

Coldset: early, SD, 6 to 8 oz., red globe. Old catalogs said it was frost tolerant, but it isn't. It does set in cool night conditions though.

Cougar Red: This is a new red tomato that has been grown and tested for cool summer temperatures with a short growing season. This meaty, medium sized fruit is good for whole tomato home processing. The flavor is a good mixture of sugar and low acid. This variety will ripen until frost. Plants of Cougar Red are vigorous and semi-determinate.

Early Annie: Early old strain that is well adapted to cold weather. Strong plant ca 70-80cm high with big 20-28 cm long leafs. Many different shapes on the same plant, from normal size almost round to midsize flat round beefsteaks tomatoes. Some of the tomatoes are attach hard to the vine and must cut loose. Meaty and juicy tomatoes on trusses with 5-12 on each, mild fresh taste, little acid with good full flavours.

Glasnost: Productive plant with a short very robust stem, 35-38 cm long and 38 cm wide covering leafs. Small to big very meaty tomatoes, some are little ribbed. When the tomatoes start to mature they are first yellow, later when mature they are light red with an orange touch and light pink coloured flesh. The plant is very healthy and the tomatoes have a very good taste. This Siberian strain grows well in cold temperature, best grown as an Indeterminate in short season areas.

Glacier: While this variety may not be able to withstand a glacier, it does set fruit well even in cold weather. In fact, it becomes loaded early in the season with very flavorful, 2 to 3 oz. red tomatoes. The taste is sweet yet rich, a combination found more commonly in larger and later-maturing tomatoes. Potato-leaved foliage helps support the large harvest of these very tasty tomatoes. Determinate. 58 days

Gregori's Altai: Siberian variety that originated in the Altai Mountains on the Chinese border. Tall plants are heavy producers of 8 to 12 oz. pink-red beefsteak tomatoes. The flavor is sweet yet acid and just delicious, with harvests continuing over an incredibly long season. Indeterminate. 67 days.

Grushovka: Siberian variety of delicious, pink, egg-shaped fruit. Tomatoes are about 3 inches long with thin skin and are excellent for canning. Plants are small, only about 2-1/2 feet tall, but produce abundantly. Determinate. 65 days.

Ida Gold: 55 days Known for its all around quality, earliness and flavor. Hardy plants yield a concentrated fruit set of 2-3 oz oblong fruits even under extreme conditions. These attractive orange beauties have a sweet, fruity, low-acid flavor and are preferred as an early basket tomato for market. Determinate.

Kimberly: Compact, potato-leaved plants deliver large harvests of truly delicious tomatoes from very early in the season right up until frost. Clusters of 1 to 2 oz. red fruit have the full tomato flavor normally reserved for larger tomatoes, a delicious balance of sugar and acid. Kimberly sets fruit well even in cool temperatures, making it a great early-bearing variety for all climates. Expect these plants to become just loaded with fruit. Indeterminate. 54 days. Very early, SD, PL, 1 to 2 oz. globe fruits, sweet and juicy, high yields. Developed in the mid-1980's by John de Rocque of Kimberly, BC, Canada from a Siberia x Tiny Tim cross. They've been carefully selected for hardiness, early ripening and quality. Sets fruit at unusually low temperatures. Good also for greenhouse culture, very productive.

Latah: early, quick growing for Northern areas, cool tolerant, red salad size fruit. Named by Dr. Boe of the University of Idaho for the county in Idaho.

Legend: Introduced by Dr. James Baggett at Oregon State University, this very early variety sets large fruit that are glossy red and round with a very good flavor that is a nice blend of sugars and acids. What is also exciting about Legend is its strong resistance against the late blight fungus, a problem that has thwarted many a tomato gardener. It sets fruit well under cool temperatures, and contains few seeds. We think this combination of great taste, earliness, and strong disease resistance makes Legend truly memorable. Determinate. 68 days.

Manitoba: 6-1/2 oz. brick-red tomatoes are smooth and slightly flattened in shape. Extremely productive and very early variety developed in Manitoba, Canada. Determinate. 60 days.

Moscow: very early, Det, compact plants. Similar to Siberia.

New Yorker: Short bush tomato, ca 70-90 cm high that give a good harvest of midsize tasty tomatoes with a fresh slight full-bodied taste. Thin ca 25-35 cm long and 20 cm wide leafs, tomatoes in long trusses with 7-12 on each. This strain grows well in cool temperature.

Nikola: Low ca 70-90 cm high not so bushy plant, grows well in cool weather, 26-32 cm long leafs. Juicy normal size tomatoes with a fresh good taste, trusses of 5-6 tomatoes with long self live. The plant is very resistant of cold weather and set fruits on very low temperature. This Russian plant doesnÂt like it to hot in the middle of the day. Good strain for short season areas.

Oregon Spring: This strain is very cold hardy and set fruit in low temperature. The strain is developed at OSU for growing in cool climate. Compact grow habit, ca 60 cm high with 25-27 cm long and 16 cm wide leafs, midsize tomatoes with little irregular shape in trusses with 10-12 on each. Firm very meaty tomatoes that reminds of small beefsteaks tomatoes with a good rich tomato flavour.

Polar Baby: Very small plants bear large harvests of 2-inch red salad tomatoes. These tomatoes are sweet and very well flavored, especially for a variety that produces so early. This is a cold weather tomato that was developed in Alaska. Determinate. 60 days.

Polar Beauty : This variety earns its name for the beautifully shaped, deep red fruit it bears very early in the season. Developed in Alaska for colder climates, it bears small to medium-sized oblate tomatoes with a good, full tomato taste. Short, bushy plants are very productive. Determinate. 63 days.

Prairie Fire: Intensely red, 3 to 5 oz. tomatoes on very short, bushy plants light up the garden, earning this variety its name. Its full flavor is tangy yet nicely balanced with sweetness and is superior to many cold weather tomatoes. Very productive plants give a large crop early in the season. This variety is a result of a cross between Sub Arctic and a beefsteak tomato. Determinate. 55 days.

Santa: This is a selection of the popular F1 Santa. A high yielding ca 160 cm high tiny sprawling plant, 30-35 cm long leafs, you can grow this as a big sprawling bush, or for earlier tomatoes with one main steam. Long trusses with 15-16 meaty mini Roma tomatoes with a shiny bright red colour, sweet strong full flavour. Healthy plant that grows well in cool weather. Cut off all trusses before the first frost and hang up them on a dark airy place inside, they will mature slowly and hold for a long time.

SashaÂs Pride: Red color, Meat type, 55 days growth, Medium size, Indeterminate yield, Beef shape

Siberia: Low very early plant, ca 50-60 cm high with 15-20 cm long leafs. Strong stem that need good support from the weight of the tomatoes. Loaded with midsize tomatoes in trusses of 6-7, good sweet taste. Unique strain from Siberia that tolerate very low temperature and grow well in cold areas and give a good yield of tomatoes the whole season. Early, Det (Rugose), golf ball sized red fruit.

Siberian: Very small plants bear heavy crops of 2 oz., oval tomatoes that are bright red and juicy with good tomato flavor. Although plants stay low-growing, they do spread out and become bushy with rugose foliage. Harvests begin incredibly soon, and many gardeners report they are pleasantly surprised by this early variety's excellent flavor. Determinate. 58 days.

Siberian Pink: early, Det, plants that nearly break down from the amount of tomatoes produced. Our own selection for an early, small fruited, pink tomato, very high yields, tart, 6 to 10 fruits per cluster 1 to 2 oz. each. Sand Hill Preservation

Siletz: Deep red, full-flavored slicing tomatoes are 10 to 12 ozs. and very nice for an early variety. Developed by Dr. James Baggett of Oregon State University, these plants yield well even in cool weather. Good acid taste and excellent interior fruit quality in an early tomato. Determinate. 52 days.

Silvery Fir Tree: Low very early plant, ca 50-60 cm high with 15-20 cm long leafs. Strong stem that need good support from the weight of the tomatoes. Loaded with midsize tomatoes in trusses of 6-7, good sweet taste. Unique strain from Siberia that tolerate very low temperature and grow well in cold areas and give a good yield of tomatoes the whole season.

Sophie's Choice: early, Det, RL, 6 to 8 oz., good yield of about 8 oz. fruits, nice taste, from Edmonton, AB, Canada. A perfect tomato for growing in pots on the patio.

Stupice: From Czechoslovakia, this is an extremely early cold-tolerant tomato that bears an abundance of 2 ounce flavorful and sweet tomatoes. This variety has become a garden favorite for its earliness, productivity, and truly wonderful taste. Indeterminate. 52 days.

Sub Arctic Maxi: One of a series of extra early tomatoes bred for extremely cold climates. Dwarf vines produce concentrated clusters of 2-1/2 oz. fruit with good flavor. Excellent for Northern gardeners or anyone seeking early tomatoes. Determinate. 62 days.

Superbec: very early, Det, 8 oz. fruits, red globe from Quebec.

Victor: early, Det, RL, small bush, heavy producer of 4 to 5 oz. red globe fruits. Introduced prior to 1955 by Michigan State College. An All American Bronze Medal winner.

Wheatly's Frost Resistant: early, Ind, large plum shape, pink-red skin and flesh, excellent yield.

Whippersnapper: very early, Ind, pink/red cherry, plants seem to have more fruit than leaves.

Zomok Early cold resistant Hungarian strain, short compact plant, ca 70-80 cm high, 15-25 cm long little thin leafs, tomatoes in trusses with ca 6 on each. Good harvest of midsize plum shape little blocky tomatoes, meaty little mealy tomatoes with a good mild acid taste. This strain grows well in cool weather and sets fruit in low temperature, good for short season areas. The name comes from the shape of the tomatoes, and it means something like; meaty and little clumsy.

71B2 - a paste but a very rich tomato flavor

Buisson - very early, not large but a rich flavor. concentrated set

Show Me
Mozark
Mocross (this may not be det)

OP: "does anybody know about a good tasting determinate
with good productivity."

I'll second Mozark, an open pollinated cultivar from University of Missouri. It's an excellent, fully determinate, red canner with medium size, blemish free tomatoes large enough to be small slicers like for a burger bun ... nice tart tomatoey flavor.

Another determinate worth growing for flavor and productivity is Bush Big Boy (hybrid). Larger tomatoes ... fully slicer size and meatier than Mozark.

Another thing you can do is grow Glory Hybrid, a fantastic, controlled growth indeterminate Peto product with excellent yields of really tasty slicers. Then save the seeds and grow out a half dozen or more F2s and look for a determinate segregation. They'll be one, I'll betcha. I got one that's a great producer, only grows about 2 - 3 feet tall, and loads up with really heavy-walled, tasty, large red tomatoes.

Two determinate, hybrid, short stake, tomato spot wilt virus-resistant tomatoes I grew this summer that had extra large and tasty, very heavy-walled tomatoes are Top Gun and Mountain Glory.

Everybody has their own tastes. I loved Black Seaman. I grew it for the first time this year. It still produced despite my troubles with early blight this year. It's a great tasting tomato. I also grew New Yorker and Campbells 1327. I agree with Douglas14's comments. They were not outstanding in any sense of the word. I also grew Stupice and was not impressed by them. I have grown Rutgers and Celebrity in the past. I did not grow them this year because I wanted to try some different varieties. I will go back to growing Rutgers and Celebrity next year. They're good workhorses for me.

Tomatogreenthumb writes: (..........ok, please tell me which great varieties I am missing out on when I raise Early Girl (smile).)
. .
. .
Here's my reply:
Ive raised only Early Girls for decades. Last year I grew about 30-40 vines. Ive always loved them. They are early, have a nice zip and nice flavor. They are dependable and fairly disease resistant.

But when I started reading this forum I realized there were a lot of tomato growers who feel that certain heirlooms are better tasting. I resisted the notion of departing from my traditional favorite, Early Girl, especially if these old-fashioned "wonder-tomatoes" were slow to blossom, fruit, and ripen.

But to find out if I was missing something, I grew a variety of some of the most talked about heirlooms this year. I grew a few Early Girl plants for comparison.

EARLINESS
Well talk about early, one of my Prudens Purple vines offered a ripe tomato AHEAD of my Early Girls. The other Prudens Purple was just a few days behind but tied with my slower Early Girl vine.

TASTE
Now lets talk about taste. About four years ago I had opportunity to visit the southeast shore of Lake Michigan just in time for the peach harvest. I love peaches but, living in northern Wisconsin, had never tasted anything other than what can be bought in the local grocery store in late summer. I visited a Michigan peach orchard that year and tasted fresh picked peaches. What an awakening !

Thats what I experienced with my tomatoes this year. The Prudens Purple, although not the best tasting tomato we grew, had a less zingy, but more complex, tomatoey taste than the Early Girls. It has a smooth, creamy texture of dense, juicy meat. At first I didnt like it because it didnt taste like an Early Girl, but as I took bite after bite I realized it had a deeper, more complex tastekinda like the difference between a $25 bottle of wine and cheap box wine. The Prudens Purple had, perhaps, a more adult taste. It definitely had a better meatier texture, while still being very juicy, with just enough zing but not enough to cover the complex taste.

I experienced an even better texture and taste from some of the late season heirlooms I grew: Brandywine Sudduth, Stump of the World, Brandyboy Hybrid, Mariannas Peace. My Neves have a less creamy, but still very meaty texture, and had a taste that was richer than any other Ive tasted.

I still like Early Girls, but every time I go to the kitchen to pick from our assortment of ripe tomatoes I seem to overlook them in favor of one of the heirlooms. My vines are all in a tent-style greenhouse, so they are still producing.so much for the short growing season. : )

PRODUCTION

As you can see from the numbers below the Early Girl lagged behind the Prudens Purple and several other much better tasting tomatoes in production.

The numbers below show my best production numbers so far:

Goliath Hyb..........12 @ 105oz
Neves Azorean Red.......8 @ 104oz
Brandywine OTV..........5 @ 88oz
Marianna's Peace...... 5 @ 84oz
Prudens Purple.......... 7 @ 84oz
Sophie's Choice........17 @ 84oz
Mortgage Lifter#1....17 @ 80oz
Mortgage Lifter#2...6 @ 77oz
Early Girl Hyb.......16 @ 75oz
Brandyboy Hyb...........7 @ 75oz
Early Goliath Hyb.......8 @ 65oz
Stump of the World....3 @ 55oz
Brandywine Sudduth......2 @ 45oz
Stupice..............25 @ 42oz

Next year I will grow Mariannas Peace and Neves for taste and production.
I will grow some Prudens purple for EARLINESS, to tide us over til the others ripen.
I dont think I will have space for any Early Girls in my garden next year.
If you gave it a whirl, its possible youll come to the same conclusion.

Happy Growing,

Bob-northernlight

Kellogs West Virginia. A cross between Kellogs Breakfast and Akers West Virginia devloped by Mark Korney. Red, baseball size fruit with excellent production and flavor. Grew mine in a 5 gal container. Ami

Years ago my brother & I used to plant a seed developed by the U. of MO called Mocross. It was a prolific grower even without any water but rain. I can't find it anymore. I heard some time ago that the U. of MO had sold the patent to some outfit in Florida. Can anyone give me any info on availability? Thanks....Joe

joe, if you are still reading here, pm Mule who posted a couple of messages above you. Mocross is on his recommended list and if he doesn't have seeds, he will know where to get them.

Jan

There were TWO MoCross hybrid tomatoes.

MoCross Supreme was a University of Missouri hybrid cultivar release circa 1961, and was 12-St-9 x K146, two proprietary breeding lines which may or may not be extant today. I doubt it, really.

MoCross Surprise is another Mizzou hybrid made by crossing Mozark x Sioux. MoCross Suprise no longer is produced commercially nor is available anywhere to my knowledge, but you can see it would be easy to replicate IF you had the pure breeding line versions of Mozark and Sioux that Mizzou maintained for the purpose.

Mozark seed no longer is produced commercially which is why a yet another previously popular hybrid, Avalanche, no longer is available to fans in Missouri and Oklahoma especially. Avalanche F1 was Mozark x Glamour.

Sioux remains widely available. Glamour remains available from Victory Seeds and Stokes Seeds. Glamour is an open pollinated variety resulting from an original cross of Burgess Crackproof x Sioux.

All the tomatoes named so far are varieties originally produced for cultivation in Midwest summer heat, except Burgess Crackproof which was a unique type found to resist cracking and was used to incorporate that characteristic into Glamour and other tomato lines.

To make an approximation of MoCross Surprise, a gardener could hand cross Mozark x Sioux. Mozark seeds grown directly from seeds obtained from University of Missouri, Columbia were available to members of Seed Savers Exchange via the 2007 and 2008 Yearbook. Little interest was shown.

There was a thread here at GW in 2007 and 2008 started by someone looking for Avalanche F1. I don't remember the title of the thread but it was something with "Avalanche" in it. Ultimately, several people looking for Mozark obtained seeds either directly from University of Missouri or from the SSE member who grew it out ... many packs were sent out independently of the SSE process.

To my recollection, nothing was ever heard again from anyone who attempted to replicate Avalanche F1 using those Mozark seeds.

Mozark is a great little determinate tomato with a short and leafy bush, but it's a hard blossom to cross because it has a thin and fragile pistil. In 2007, I crossed Mozark x Sioux to replicate MoCross Suprise, but did not start any of the F1 seeds this spring.

I hope that helps Joe if he's still following this thread. Sorry I didn't notice his message on February 17, because I was out of the country. I gladly would send him the MoCross Suprise replicated seeds, or some seeds for Mozark if he wants to try his own crosses.

Pennyrile, we used to grow MoCross as kids 35 years ago here in St. Louis on a little farm that my grandfather owned. My Dad remembers getting them from the U of Missouri. We've been raving about them ever since. They had an odd shape, were a deep red color, and the best tomato flavor anyone can remember. I'd love to get some of your seeds if you could part with them. I'd be happy to send my UPS number and remunerate you in any way you deem appropriate.

It's probably too late to grow them this year, right? Or are you way down South?

Anyway, contact me at tomatohead48@hotmail.com and I'll split my supply with you. I won't be able to access that email account until Tuesday afternoon, however. So, please be patient. I will get with you.

It's a hybrid, but those in super hot climates might want to try the heat-set determinate Heatwave II. I was very pleasantly surprised by the first ripe Heatwaves last week. Very, very tasty and slightly crisp. Would make a killer salsa.

I have a bunch of indeterminates under a shade cover that can be pulled in front of them for protection or behind them for sunshine. They get so tall this becomes a hassle, so next year I'm putting 30+ determinates in that location. I'm excited about it.

Above Dave mentions a long discussion of Rutgers around here. I couldn't find it.

I have Rutgers seed and was happy to see the recommendation here. I was thinking of putting half the garden to them. BUT. My seed is indeterminate from Ferry Morse. This package:

{{gwi:1386690}}

Includes this text:

• Rutgers has proven itself for years to be highly productive. Large, attractive fruits with thick, solid flesh. Superior flavor, delicious in salads, unsurpassed for home canning. Indeterminate.

Hoping like Bonnie w/Celebrity they got it wrong I then found this at Fedco seeds:

• Rutgers OG (75 day) Ind. Two varieties are called Rutgers. We sell the original strain of this famous New Jersey tomato, developed by Campbell's Soup Co. in 1928 as a cross between Marglobe and JTD. When Rutgers University refined the variety in 1943, they took out some of the vininess but also some of the flavor. Our taste tests confirm that the original indeterminate strain is better.

So, I guess I have this seed, which sounds great, but isn't what I want. I also have a couple 20 cent packs of Rutgers from American Seed aka Plantation products which don't specify growth habit. I don't want to get this wrong because of the height issue. How can I be certain my Rutgers are determinate? Or, perhaps someone with a verified low growing determinate strain would like to swap with a few of my indeterminate types, that would work if someone wants.

For determinate I would go with the Rutgers. This is the first year I didnt grow Rutgers. I wish I had one right about now with the way the weather has been. When I grow Rutgers they do well in almost any climate that the Mid-west can throw at it.

Rutgers is the only determinate that made it's way into my garden. I started a few others that didn't survive the growing out period. Can't remember what they were now.

We grow Heartland here........it,s a good tasting determinate.

Best Boy

I thought I already replied to this but don't see it...

Mountain Princess-- 60 days --DETERMINATE/Bush plant, a super early variety. The plant produces a heavy crop of very good tasting fruit for an early variety. With so many flower buds, I thought it was a Cherry tomato plant, however fruits average 3" to 3-1/2" size. Fruit load was so heavy I needed to stake & cage it. NOTE: THIS IS NOT A HYBRID FROM NORTH CAROLINA STATE'S MOUNTAIN CROPS RESEARCH STATION Series, BUT AN HEIRLOOM GROWN FOR YEARS IN THE MONONGAHELA NATIONAL FOREST REGION OF WEST VIRGINIA where local families have raised it for generations. (Chuck Wyatt, in 1999, called it 48 days.)

{{gwi:149637}}

..........

Sophie's Choice-- 55 days --Extra early; dwarf/determinate. Very small Determinate (sometimes just 18"), red oblate 6-8oz firm fruits, full bodied smooth, sweet taste; an Heirloom from Canada. I left it for dead--forgetaboutit--and it came back as one of the biggest surprises in 2004! About 18" tall and LOADED with fruits--not 2 inch fruits but most over 3 inches and many 4 inches or more! Great taste for an Early!

{{gwi:1386693}}

..........

Lime Green Salad-- 60 days --A small determinate plant with early, bunches of bright lime green, 4-8 ounce fruits, yellow-green inside. They ripen to a pretty amber color, with tangy, rich, sweet and juicy flavor. An outstanding tomato. Makes an incredible green salsa. Does well in pots too.

{{gwi:1368645}}

..........

New Big Dwarf-- From Isbell in 1915, a sweet, delicious pink tomato. The notable thing is that it gives large fruit, often nearly a pound, on a true dwarf plant that grows only about 2 feet tall. Supposedly, it originated from a cross between Ponderosa, a large pink INDETERMINATE, with Dwarf Champion, a dwarf small fruited pink.

{{gwi:149634}}

..........

Hope this helps.

Mark

Sorry, I almost forgot...

Azoychka--Originally from Russia Bird Market, heirloom 8 ounce slicer has wonderful flavor and texture.

{{gwi:1380915}}

Thanks Korney. I'm going to need a bigger garden. Just what I'm looking for.

No thoughts on my indeterminate Rutgers? Anyone?

I'm familiar with it, but have only grown it to transplant size and never made the final cut. There were just so many others that were better, or at least sounded better, than it. I got my seeds from Fedco a few years ago, and have discussed its indeterminance here in the past.

Okay, I'm excited to try Rutgers and now have confirmed determinate seed, along with Azoychka and Sophie's Choice. Thanks again Korney. Bradley sounded like a winner for my taste buds and conditions, but I read it's prone to cracking and I need to avoid that. Can a Bradley grower confirm or refute this?

So, I took the time to take Carolyn's advice and perused the selection at Sandhill. Yikes. We're gonna need a bigger boat. Korney's Cross is billed as a very unique high producer. Korney?

{{gwi:1386695}}

Vote here for Rutgers-started in Mi.last year and grown on the porch in Fl. A wonderful plant-loved the tomatoes.

My mistake it says on the seed package as I retrieve it now, that they were indeterminate.(!) My bro said they would do nicely when I planted them and I just treated them like determinate. They grew about to about 36" tall and produced like crazy.

Thanks for the report Daisy. The indeterminate Rutgers looks compact enough for my determinate space, so I will try both side by side and see what the difference is.

Still sorting out the determinate, indeterminate split, can they be divided by this characteristic?

Some varieties pump out scads of fruit and then issue their last will and testament.

Others keep producing over a long time. I think of those as indeterminate.

Or are some determinates also long producing?

BTW, lovely plants Daisy!

Jan

Hi Jan,

"Here is a link that might be useful:"

"They stop growing when fruit sets on the terminal or top bud, ripen all their crop at or near the same time (usually over a 2 week period), and then die."

That is inaccurate. The determinate, Best Boy, keeps growing new branches and doesn't die until frost kills it in zone 5. My Best Boy plants are already over 4 feet high.

Found the deter-vs-indeter confusing. I accidently started a good choice,the Rutgers did not get too gangly. I partially spot trimmed side shoots as the plants wanted to over hang the porch and become an eyesore. I don't know if there is any difference in seeds-only seeds that were available to me last fall were seeds packaged for children.
I brought back to Mi. past spring, starts from side shoots
the same plant. Sort of an experiment-they aren't red yet but easily contained in patio pot.

This deter versis indeterminate can get confusing.....
""They stop growing when fruit sets on the terminal or top bud, ripen all their crop at or near the same time (usually over a 2 week period), and then die."

That is inaccurate. The determinate, Best Boy, keeps growing new branches and doesn't die until frost kills it in zone 5. My Best Boy plants are already over 4 feet high.""

Now we are getting to some thing I would like to know. I want to plant inside for winter tomatoes, but want a plant that keeps on giving. Not just one shot and quits. An indeterminat keeps on growing to the ceiling and way too tall. So far I am looking at Sophie's choice, new big dwarf, bush beefsteak, and of course Rutgers. Want a full sized tomato that is red or pink. Taste? about any thing will beat store tomatoes. Any comments?

The "big" tomatoes that I'll be growing on my windowsill this winter are Sophie's Choice in a two gallon pot, and a German Extreme Dwarf Bush in a one gallon pot.

I chose it based on the 1958 Gleckler catalog on the Baker Creek site. They said it is a fast, productive 45 dtm tomato that produces 3 oz slicers that taste like Rutgers, and can be grown in a south-facing window in a ten inch pot.

As for continued longevity of either of these, I don't know. I started Sophie's late in the winter, but didn't plan ahead for adequate caging or staking and by the time spring rolled around I was tired of propping it up, so i ripped the whole thing up and hung it upside down to finish the ripening process, I got masses of fruit from a plant that was no more than 12 inches tall, and grown in a too-small pot.

Jan

Posted by mojavebob 9/Sunset 11 (My Page) on Thu, Jul 30, 09 at 23:18

So, I took the time to take Carolyn's advice and perused the selection at Sandhill. Yikes. We're gonna need a bigger boat. Korney's Cross is billed as a very unique high producer. Korney?

Bob, it has been pretty disease resistant/tolerant too. Depending on if the latest or an earlier F generation, it usually is a mahagany color. A few years ago I was getting 2 different shapes:

{{gwi:1320380}}

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Here's a cluster from the original F1 cross:

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Last year I think it was bigger & wider yet, maybe Eva Purple Ball size. This year I got them in late, almost the end of June, so can't comment yet.

Fusion was the source for those at Sandhill I think. Maybe he can comment on it here. I would probably consider it a semi-determinate, about 3.5-5ft tall, and clusters of usually 4 to 6. It was a cross of Black Plum and a determinate red beefsteak.

Hope this helps.

Thanks again Korney. Those remind me of the Russo Bruno hybrid, or is it Bruno Russo? How do they taste? I'm not a big fan of black plum, too plain, but that's a nice looking cross.

"about any thing will beat store tomatoes. Any comments?"

Heirloom connoisseurs are irrationally hedonistic.

Hullo,

I hope no one minds me resurrecting this thread... anyway, I was wondering if anyone knows anything about Fireball? It is supposed to be determinate, and makes fairly big beefsteak fruit, so it looks like a fun tomato and easy one to grow.

Sophie's choice sounds like the smart pick, but it seems a little boring in terms of shape and color, it tastes good I think I may grow it. I read that the vines are only 2 ft high or so, so I was wondering if it is a good producer? I don't have room for gardening, so a nice smaller plant is always of interest.

Can anyone tell me anything about growing Marmande, speckled Siberian, Gregori's Altai, Sasha's Altai? Any other good black determinate or compact varieties besides Black Seaman (which some people seem to not like)?

I posted the above message a week ago, but it seems it was never bumped to the top of the group, anyone know what is going on? Anyway, if anyone knows about Budenovka I'd love to hear about that as well.

I'm thinking of planting some short determinates this year since I want to plant something with roots voles will not eat in my bean rows to see if I can discourage them from eating the beans. I'm considering-
Napoli
Mtn Princess
New Big Dwarf
Oregon Spring
Prairie Fire
San Remo
Tricot Czech
Novinka Kubani
Azure paste
Lebiajinsky
Martino's Roma

Any comments on size of bushes they grow? Ability to grow without staking? Taste?

Second year in a row I'm growing New Big Dwarf, Marianne, Bella Rosa, Yaqui, Russian Persimmon, and Princippe Borghese in Earthboxes. All were caged with a four foot sturdy square. One of two New Big Dwarfs was easily six feet last year and I used one of those Texas cages.

It all happened in 2008:

Wanted : determinant, GOOD TASTING, productive, EARLY ....

Sure thing, why not > Let me know. :-)

I may come close by saying : Siletz and Rutgers (the det version). And how about Rio Grange ? I am growing them this season and have grown Rutgers and Siletz in the past

Seysonn

I grow VR Moscow developed at USU. I think its a fine tasting determinant.