Melissa, I am pretty sure that in this case the bottom would have frozen first, because the jars were sitting on a cooling-unit shelf in the freezer.

I thought hard about retrieving the soup, but decided I just didn't want to risk it. The side of the jar was broken into a LOT of pieces. Sigh.

I like plastic containers, too, and am totally with you on the square and stackable! One reason I used these jars was because they have a square cross-section, in fact, and were tall enough to perfectly fill a freezer shelf -- very efficient use of space. (Whatever brand of plastic disposable container was available at my grocery store that week, in fact, which I looked at when I bought the chickens, were ROUND in the size I wanted, on reason I rejected them. GOTTA love square.

But I also really prefer to use sturdy, oft-reusable containers (glass or tougher plastic, e.g., Rubbermaid) because we just throw away so darned much stuff, especially plastic, in our culture. I know those disposable ones aren't single-use --- they survive quite a few uses, and in some cases (not all, I have found), the dishwasher, and I do have some. I do have a personal peeve with Ziploc, which CHANGED the lid design of these after I had bought a bunch, so the new ones I bought weren't interchangeable with the older ones for lids, which kind of ruins half the POINT of the things, and brings up another great feature of canning jars --- standard lids.

Sigh.

Z

Thanks for the sympathy!

I think you hit the nail on the head.

"The jars I used were the 24-ounce ones that had formerly held Classico spaghetti sauce.

Those are spagetti sauce jars made to look like canning jars. They _ARE NOT_ canning jars. They should not be resued as a canning jar.

Then again, I wouldn't freeze in glass unless they were specifically stated, as in a 'can or freeze' jar.

GL, you're right, I see I had a major error in saying water contracts when it freezes, when I meant to say expands. It contracts to 4°C/39°F as you say, then expands. Good point on solids freezing differently from liquids and the weakness of my analogy. My only question is, when you say water ice stays at 32°F, wouldn't that be just for a solid/liquid mixture? Once all the liquid has frozen, the ice can get colder, and has to in a cold freezer, otherwise the freezer will run forever trying to cool it to the set temperature of 0°F or whatever.

Zabby, yes, the Ziploc lid change was extremely annoying. I wrote "OLD" on all my old square containers & lids for easier matching which must make my lunch look great in the work fridge, but it came off in the dishwasher anyway. I prefer glass to plastic in most cases, but I never throw these things away except when I'm cleaning out the container cabinet & can verify which ones have no matching lid or bottom.

Melissa

Zabby, I'm sorry you lost that great soup. I freeze apple cider in canning jars every year, even the regular ones without a wide mouth and have never had one break. I've never tried to freeze in the other "commercial" jars, though.

I waterbath can those spaghetti sauce jars all the time, though, along with mayonnaise jars, marshmallow creme jars and various other jars that I've gotten through the decades, and I don't have any breakage problems in the canner. Even the National Center for Home Food Preservation says you can reuse those commercial jars, with some limitations:

Most commercial pint- and quart-size mayonnaise or salad dressing jars may be used with new two-piece lids for canning acid foods. However, you should expect more seal failures and jar breakage. These jars have a narrower sealing surface and are tempered less than Mason jars, and may be weakened by repeated contact with metal spoons or knives used in dispensing mayonnaise or salad dressing. Seemingly insignificant scratches in glass may cause cracking and breakage while processing jars in a canner. Mayonnaise-type jars are not recommended for use with foods to be processed in a pressure canner because of excessive jar breakage. Other commercial jars with mouths that cannot be sealed with two-piece canning lids are not recommended for use in canning any food at home.

Annie

>wouldn't that be just for a solid/liquid mixture? Once all the liquid has frozen, the ice can get colder, and...Every good question, Melissa, deserves an answer. And the answer to this one is, I dunno. What you say seems to make sense. But, as we've learned, logic is a slippery platform.

Only thing I know for sure is that water can exist as both a liquid and a solid at 32F. Futher depondent sayeth not.

I knew if I posted this tale some people would figure it was simply because I used a non-official canning jar, and some because I used a canning jar at all and not plastic. All I can say is that I have frozen stuff in jars with no problem many a time, but not in jars that shape or size, and not on the freezing shelf of my new upright freezer, and this time I had 2 out of 7 crack, so I am suspecting those variables as being at fault, and thought I'd share my experience in case it helps anyone else.

As for the question of the temperature ice can be, logic may only get you so far, but high-school physics gets you the info that ice can be colder than 32 F (and steam hotter than 240 F), just as water can exist at a range of temperatures. WHILE a given quantity of water is freezing (or melting) (or boiling), it will indeed stay at the temperature at which the state changes until all of it has changed its state.

The frozen ice in a comet out in space is much colder than 32 F, for example.

> Otherwise the freezer will run forever trying to cool it to the set temperature of 0°F or whatever.

Yep. What the freezer's thermostat measures, of course, is not the temp of my frozen foods inside it but the temp of the air around them. But the laws of thermodynamics say that if the foods are warmer than the air, some of their warmth will be redistributed till everything is more even, so your illustration makes sense.

Zabby

In this house we obey the laws of thermodynamics!

--Bart Simpson

Except when Maxwell's Demons break those laws.

Ah, H2SO4 jimster! I think what Zabby is trying to say is:

Heat won't pass from a cooler to a hotter
You can try it if you like but you'd far better notta
Cause the cold in the cooler will get hotter as a rule-a
Because the hotter body's heat will pass to the cooler

Here's a link to this great thermo song. Some of my mechanical engineering classmates know all the words. The actual song starts about 2 minutes in but the beginning is funny too.

Here is a link that might be useful: thermo song

Zabby: as I'm reading this thread another thought occurred.... I always refrigerate the filled jars overnight before freezing. Do you do this too? My freezer also has the coils in the shelves and that hasn't seemed to make a difference.

Thanks, melva02. I needed that. It made me smile.

Of course I credited the saying to Bart when it was actually Homer. Oh, well. You get the idea. I have the wave file but don't know how to post it here.

A great big H2SO4 right back atcha. And F=ma as well.

Jim

That thermo song was introduced, many years ago, by the British satiric team Flanders & Swan, in their review called "The Drop of Another Hat." Even better, if you can find the album, is their spoof on bull fighting. But I digress.

Thanks gardenlad! My thermo professor played the file for us & put the mp3 with the course materials, but I don't think he knew the source. He first encountered the song when a science friend and his daughter broke into a spontaneous performance of it...now that's geeky. :-) That guy gave him the mp3, but I'll tell him where to look for the album.

Jim, this professor also has a story of a physics professor who ended up at a dinner table with a bunch of english professors and grad students. They were discussing literature and asked his opinion of something, and he said, "All I know is F=ma, baby!"

Sorry to hijack the thread. Back to jar-related thermo, Zabby & Westelle, I think you're right about refrigerating overnight. I will add that when I put hot stuff in the fridge, I keep it away from the milk in fear that one side of the milk will warm up & allow some bacteria to grow, which will disperse and end up taking a day or two off the life of the milk. I believe the safest thing is to cool food first in an ice bath since it can take a really long time to cool in the fridge, but we have just one ice tray precariously balanced in our shelfless freezer, so it's not worth it to me. And of course you wouldn't put hot jars in an ice bath, that's a sure cause of thermal shock and breakage. When I froze 2 jars of Shirley's veg cocktail in regular pints, I had let them cool overnight in hopes they would seal after all, and that seemed to be enough to keep them from breaking. I assume they froze rather slowly in my boyfriend's almost-empty freezer. While we're on the subject, a full freezer is more efficient, but a fridge needs room for air to circulate.

Melissa

westelle, your theory ties in with Carol's thermal shock idea and it sounds plausisible to me. I did not refrigerate the soup first, though I did let it come to room temperature. However, with such a big pot of such chunky soup there could have been warm pockets still.

It does surprise me that if there was going to be thermal shock breakage it didn't happen right away ---- I checked these jars after about 18 hours ---- but I don't pretend to have Homer Simpson's detailed grasp of physics. ;-)

Zabby

That is strange, Zabby. Maybe there were tiny cracks after freezing and moisture worked its way in & froze, splitting the jars apart like what happens to rocks. Tiny cracks can be disastrous. Years ago at a power plant in Wisconsin, a 4-foot disc in a turbine split in half while the turbine was turning at 1800 revolutions per minute. One half was stopped by a 26-inch I-beam. The other half went through a 12-inch I-beam and a steel-reinforced concrete wall, knocked the unit transformer (6' cube) about 4 feet off its base, flew 100 feet up a hill, bounced once, and sailed another 50 feet to the top of the hill where it landed in the switchyard. They determined that the critical crack length to cause the failure had been 80 thousandths of an inch, about 2 mm and barely noticeable in that 4-foot steel disc. So even a teeny scratch could have been the start of your cracking woes. I think the outcome can never be predicted with 100% accuracy, so you take the precautions that you think are most important and hope for the best. Or you could invest in an ultrasound machine to scan your jars before freezing or pressure canning. :-)

Melissa

Here's some good information on jars from Pennsylvania State - Lancaster Extension.

Jar Facts

"Several of you have asked about jar bargains found at garage sales. Hundreds of jars at a fraction of the cost of new. Should you buy them? Just like anything else you get at a garage sale, you do not know how it was handled or how old it is. If you are not sure of the condition of the old jars, immerse in water and bring to a boil. Boil 15 minutes. If they are defective, they will break. Better to discover this before you fill with food and process.

Jars can be traumatized (roughly handled) when they are heaped in baskets or boxes, when they bang up against each other, when you use a metal knife to release air bubbles in the jars and let the knife hit the bottom of the jar, or the sharpe edge scratches the inside, or if you scour jars with steel wool or kitchen scrapers.

Be a Jar Detective: A broken jar in your canner is aggravating and slows your canning day. If you look at the pieces carefully, you may be able to determine the cause. Jars have three basic breakage patterns. Here are some clues so you can do a little detective work and trouble shoot for your family and friends.

 Thermal Shock - produces just a few pieces. It looks like the bottom fell out. This often happens to more than one jar in the load. It is caused by filling jars with cold food and liquid that is not boiling followed by plunging into water that is already boiling. Also caused by setting hot jars to cool on a cold surface or near a cold draft or open airy window or accidentally spattering hot jars with cold water. Also caused by scratches on jars or not enough water in pressure canner.

 Pressure Break - produces a vertical crack that forks and divides. Caused by not enough headspace to allow for expansion; screwing jar lids on too tight so jars can't vent, cooling a pressure canner too fast, or allowing pressure to fluctuate too widely.

 Impact Break - Starts from the point of shock and radiates straight out from there. Caused by bumping, dropping, or hitting with a sharp knife to remove air bubbles. Use a plastic or wooden tool to remove air bubbles.

A final thought, if you use jars for freezing, it might be a good idea to test by boiling for impact damage before you use them in a canner. Life in a freezer can be hard on a jar."

Here is a link that might be useful: Lancaster Extension Let's Preserve Newsletter

WOW! A little CSI in the kitchen.

Readinglady - (er - "jar detective)

Thanks for the heads-up on the jars. I made a "save" on that - and next time I bring out some of my old "abused" stored jars, I will definitely give the boil test.

Also - Zabby - before rushing to enroll in night school physics class, try freezing the jars and contents with the lids off, then when frozen, put on the lids - not scientific, but I'll bet it would work.

I like to cool stuff before freezing anyway, we are "preached" energy conservation so much in these parts, that it has become automatic (not making the freezer work so hard - besides it makes the electric meter go round faster).

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

I often freeze beef stock in qt wide mouth canning (not freezing) jars, and always make sure there is plenty of head room, and I often put them in the freezer warm, or at a temp that I can handle them. I have them break every now and again, usually the bottom breaks off. I'd say the breakage rate is about 5%.

What I notice is that the fracturing seems to occur sometime well after the stuff was frozen. I'll stick the stuff in, next day go look and everything is frozen and looking good, because I'll shift the jars around in the freezer, and then later, when I go to get one to use, its cracked.

I've tried to freeze a few times in jars, and they always broke, so I only use plastic containers or bags now. Usually the bottom fell out of the jar. A real BOTHER to clean up. Shammie

CSI "Jar Detective". How funny. I had to find this information in self-defense. Some sources say the usual life of canning jars is 10 years. After that, depending on how kindly they've been treated, it gets more problematic. Since some of my jars are 50+ years old, I needed to find ways to test condition.

Not to mention gift jars, which are often returned to me clanking together in plastic grocery bags.

I'd consider a 5% breakage rate really, really high. It definitely raises the cost of processing. I'm unhappy any time a jar breaks but generally it will be years between breakages. (But as DH says, "Don't get too cocky," because it happens to all of us at one time or another; it's thumbing my nose at the Fates to say otherwise.)

Carol

OK, I've ordered my ultrasound machine and sent away for several PhD physics texts. Now all I need to do is persuade Carol to move to Ontario and head my Jar Forensics lab, and we'll be all set for the new spinoof: CSI: Harvest Forum. I see all kinds of possibilities here --- we can hunt down what caused a jar to unseal, track down how those fruit flies actually get into the kitchen....

Bejay, I'm going to take your advice to cool things first (in fact, I just did, for the beef stew I put up last night, even though I put it in plastic containers, and even though it made BF annoyed that I took up a bunch of space overnight in the fridge that's usually reserved for Diet Coke).

But I'm unpersuaded about the jar lids making any difference, because I practically did have them off --- they were perched on every so loosely, and, as I've mentioned, there was PLENTY of headspace, even AFTER the stuff was frozen and the jars broken, so I don't think that was a factor. (Unless there's some top-of-jar physics going on that is WAY over my high-school-A head.)

David, thanks for sharing your experience; this sounds a lot like what happened to me, so it is interesting that your jars were straight-sided wide mouth ones, which suggests my square-shoulder theory is a crock. Mind you, 2 jars out of 7 breaking is over 28%, but the sample size is small.

As for the "jar detective," I wish I'd had a closer look at that other broken jar, now, because I really don't remember seeing the bottom broken but my HEART was broken enough I didn't take that close of a look! But I know the one that I did look at closely (and even tried defrosting, enough to decide that I couldn't get the soup out in any way I felt certain enough would keep every bit of glass out) seemed like a combination of the different breaks listed. The bottom was broken off with a break that was about 1/4 inch up the sides, all the way around, but one face of the square-sided jar was badly cracked, making a dozen or more pieces of varying sizes --- one or two big, long cracks up the side and a bunch of slanty ones. They didn't seem to be radiating from one particular spot.

Just as well the garbage got taken away yesterday or BF might find my digging in it for the broken jars. When he asked "what are you doing?" all I'd be able to say was "getting some evidence ready for CSI: Harvest Forum" and he would probably say, "No more canning for you, it's clearly sent you round the bend!" ;-)

Zabby

Canning can do it - send us round the bend, I mean.

Just wanted to add, Zabby, that with thermal shock there can be subsidiary cracking up the side but the dead giveaway is the bottom breaking out.

(Now I do feel like CSI!)

Carol

I found some plastic jars by ZipLock today. Has anyone had any experience with these? They might work in the freezer too. The container said it was safe to microwave food in them. I didn't buy any, but it is good to know they exist.

I think I'll go look really pale, and then gaunt, then hop into a Hummer and wave around a pistol. Point it at the freezer.

david52, will there be a soundtrack?

Zabby

Techno, Zabby.

Anywho, I just went out and found another jar that had cracked sometime over the past month or so, when I last shifted them around. And what I really don't like is the indecision on what to do with a frozen lump of beef stock and broken glass.

I have some kraut frozen in 2 of the ziplock things. They aren't spillproof so I don't really know whether the lids are a tight enough seal for long term freezer storage. I'm not planning on the kraut being in there that long.

Did I miss something about "freezing" kraut? I would imagine it could be kept a long time in the fridge, but perhaps become a bit smelly unless properly sealed - but I'm not aware of any past postings on freezing it. I'm still sold on the in-jar method of fermenting and preserving - so easy for small families like mine.

Speaking of small family preserving, I just ordered the Small Batch Preserving book - that is mentioned so often here. Or - rather I hope it will get here, (an order on E-bay - and may take awhile- this particular vendor has had quite a lot of late sending problems - we shall see).

Anyway, for what it's worth, one solution to the freezer storage thing - is styrofoam containers. These are sold in large bulk sizes - and are usually used in commercial eateries for such things as hot dog, torpedo, taco carry-out containers. They have a butterfly hinge, and hold approximately 1-1/2 to 2 lbs. of meat, etc.

I like them a lot for storing things like ground sausage, or hamburger, or blanched beans, or other veggies, that are first frozen in a regular small plastic baggie. Then packed inside the styrofoam for long term storage in the chest freezer. The contents and date are marked with one of those ink markers with contents and date on top (easy to read).

Because they are rectangular and uniform in size, they stack well, and seem to hold up to those deep down rummages that usually occur sometime around December or January, when searching for last June's strawberrry stash -A simple rubber band helps them stay closed, as the hinges aren't all that strong, but the double insulation seems to work well - and so far, no freezer burn.

Awhile back, someone wanted to know where to purchase the old time freezer boxes with waxed coating on the outside - they use them commercially with good results, but I don't see them for home preserving. The styrofoam containers seem to work as well, with similar overall result, I find. Best of all, these containers are reusable as they don't touch the food - only the inner plastic baggie.

I've given up on glass in the freezer anyway, except for very small jars. It is so easy, to dump out the contents of a jar of something that didn't seal, into a plastic freezer container and not worry about further trauma.

Personally, I think the guy who suggested jars for freezing, obviously didn't do a lot of home preserving anyway - (maybe the same one who thinks jars can be shipped/stored with the lids on them for long periods of time).

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

David,

How about thawing the beef broth, straining it through cheesecloth and letting it settle. Then decant, leaving behind the last dregs. All glass will have settled out.

Jim

Jim, I do beef broth with stuff like beef ribs that are on "One Day Special $0.49 / lb" and it almost isn't worth it, its just beef and water simmered, nothing special. I still have a dozen qts left. We use it for things like soup, chili, or stews to intensify the base flavor.

Anyway, cheese cloth is so not CSI. I'd use ultraviolet light, a couple of micron glass detecting microscopes, and some thing that foams and fizzes.

>and some thing that foams and fizzes..... in a day-glo color.

If you take the ribs, some carrots, onions, celery, smoosh them around in a big roasting pan with a bit of olive oil and roast in the oven then dump in a big pot, add water and simmer a number of hours you'll find the flavor is elevated by the roasting. (You can also use veg peels and such which you've saved and frozen, if you wish, just not the strong veg like brussels sprouts or other cruciferous, etc.) Be sure to boil some of the water and pour it into the roasting pan to bring up the good brown bits and add that to the kettle too.

Once cooked, strain out the solids and reduce broth to desired intensity. Add salt and pepper to taste and you're ready to go! (I chill and lift off the fat also.)

Carol

Carol, I agree, I always roast the soup bones and ribs before making stock, it gives it a much nicer and richer flavor. Of course, I promptly decide to can a batch of French Onion Soup or some of Katie's Beef Burgundy, and use the stock way before I can it by itself. You'd think with a whole darned cow I'd manage to can some plain beef stock, wouldn't you?

Annie

Carol, I agree, I always roast the soup bones and ribs before making stock, it gives it a much nicer and richer flavor. Of course, I promptly decide to can a batch of French Onion Soup or some of Katie's Beef Burgundy, and use the stock way before I can it by itself. You'd think with a whole darned cow I'd manage to can some plain beef stock, wouldn't you?

Annie

Hmmm -

After reading the above posts, was wondering if this beef stock could be made into a suitable seasoning salt.

I make tasty seasoning salts from onion, garlic, and celery, simply by grinding them up in a food processor, adding salt to make a paste, then dry in the oven. When it becomes completely dry, return to the processor and grind until it goes through a shaker. These salts are far better than old stuff in the stores.

So, if I roasted bones, added veggies and made broth, how would it be to continue reducing the mix, then adding salt, dry, and grind - in other words, has anyone made a home-style dried beef broth?

I'm a bit reluctant to tie up jars now for broth - although convenient, would prefer to freeze it, but is there any drawback there, flavor wise, to freezing? There is still the little annoyance of thawing, tho the microwave helps to give a "quickie" with that.

The idea of having a flavorful dried beef broth - not that old cardboard stuff, sounds pretty interesting. Anyone ever tried it?

Bejay

I don't know if you can or not, Bejay, but my guess would be yes. I've never tried it but it would be a worthy experiment.

You can definitely reduce a long, long ways, down to a demi-glace, which is broth reduced to the point it's nothing but an intense beef jelly. A tablespoon or two is all that's needed. Wonderful for gravy, sauces, to boost flavor in soups, etc.

I can't think of any reason why freezing wouldn't work very well, and it wouldn't take up much space.

I think I would prefer to do that, mainly because I'd rather add salt to the finished dish and not feel I'm stuck with the possibility of too much salt. In a lot of cases, if you add something like Worcestershire or other condiments to a dish there's already a measure of salt, or it may be that except for a light finish, the herbs and other seasonings can carry the flavor. Plain is more versatile.

Carol

Bejay, I usually add frozen stock directly to the pot on the stove. If it's the first thing added, I use moderate heat to melt it quickly, and if there's already onions or something in the pot, I use lowish heat to give it a chance to melt without burning the other stuff. Unless the dish is really delicate, this works fine for me.

Melissa

Carol, do you ever can the demi-glace? Seems like you could even use jelly jars for that. How long would you process is?

Demiglaces are great from any meat. Pork Spareribs get blanched first for 5 - 10 mins, then BBQ'd. It makes them more tender and renders some of the fat. Then I defat and simmer the blanching water down to a demiglace. Good flavor for a lot of things - biscuits n gravy (only in the gravy!), soups, mashed potatoes. To me, it's not worth it to can -- a gallon of blanching water makes about a half-cup of demiglace, and a demiglace never really goes bad.

Good commercial example of a demiglace: http://www.superiortouch.com/btb.htm - I can recommend it, this stuff is good! This leeeetle jar will make almost 40 cups of broth.

Dried beef (and chicken) stock goes back to pre-colonial days. It was called "pocket soup" and "soup glue" colloquially.

To make it they used essentially the same process as used today. The stock was boiled down to the equivilent of a demiglace, only a little dryer. This was then spread on a sheet to dry completely. The dried soup was then broken into small pieces, comparable to our bouillion cubes.

To do the same thing today, boil the soup down to a demiglace. Then pour that into the dehydrator trays used to make fruit leathers. Set the dehydrator's temperature and let it dry fully.

Thanks, gardenlad. Why didn't I think of a dehydrator? If you have an oven with a fairly low temp you could also pour it out on a silpat or similar teflon-type sheet and reduce that way also.

Melly, I don't know that it would be worth canning. It reduces so far I'd be inclined to keep some in the fridge and the rest just freeze in tablespoon-size cubes. For that reason I wouldn't bother with dehydrating, either, though I can see why a person might prefer that method.

Carol

I agree with Carol. It makes no sense to can demiglace. Indeed, unless you use it on a regular basis, it makes little sense to make it at all.

Not that it doesn't do its job. It does, with a vengeance. Just think of it as concentrated beef (veal, venison, chicken)flavor. What you have to answer is, "how often do I use that sort of concentrated mix."

If you canned it, even in a baby food size jar, you would still need to refrigerate after opening, because, as Carol notes, a little goes a long, long way. So if you do make it, just refrigerate it to begin with.

Personally, I don't bother. What I do is freeze stock, and use it as the base for soups, stews, and sauces as necessary. If I do need a more concentrated flavor (which is rare; my stocks already are pretty flavorsome) I merely boil down the stock first.

David & Jim,

The ultrasound from Zabby's Jar Lab is available for rent to outside investigators for a small fee.

Zabby

David, what kind of freezer do you have? Do your jars go on one of those actual cooling shelves in an upright?

Zabby,
trying to decide if she's going to test these theories by using canning jars to freeze the 5 quarts of turkey broth from her Thanksgiving bird --- they'd be by far the most convenient size and shape of what I have on hand.

Ultrasound! Brilliant, Zabby! Just what I need!

Will your ultrasound work for examining jars of steamer canned food to see if they are safe to eat?

Jim

Ouch, Jim. :-)

Zabby, did you just boil the turkey carcass? I'm going to start a new thread about chicken stock, but just wondering whether boiling the carcass makes as good a stock as using raw bones.

Melissa

Melissa, the best stock comes from first roasting raw bones. Second comes from roasting cooked bones. Third comes from not roasting the bones at all.

However, the taste differences---depending on what else you put in---are slight. And you use what you have. A left-over turkey carcass makes a great stock (and ultimately a soup), so don't feel as though you _must_ start with raw bones.

Zabby, I store my cracking jars in a chest freezer, and they are mostly sitting on the bottom because our grass fed beef is coming in 3 weeks, and its pretty much empty. The one that cracked recently was sitting on the tops of the ones sitting on the bottom.

I'm trying to think up how to work in "Cold Case" in this, but aside from the obvious, kinda stuck.

David,

Well, we can always prosecute the suspected culprit (Mr. Thermal Q. Shock) on the new show "Thaw and Order."

Zabby