The sugar isn't really the issue. The issues are the flour (high pH and density) and the number of peppers (high pH). Although mustards generally are inhospitable environments for bacteria, without testing we have no way of knowing whether this is safe for canning or not, regardless of the kind of mustard you use.

Carol

Agree with Carol. Since this is just a made-up and not a tested recipe there is no way to know if it is safe to make as it is much less make any changes in it.

I would suspect that it isn't safe, especially since it doesn't even require any processing and given the ratio of low acid veggies. Flour only compounds the problems and the density would make even BWB processing questionable at best.

Sorry, but it boils down to it's your choice. Can at your own risk.

Dave

Sorry, but I posted the wrong recipe. You guys through me off when you said it wasn't even processed. I can't seem to find the actual recipe I used last year, but it came out fine. For that one, I think I just weighed the amount of banana peppers it called for, and then just used the same weight in jalapenos. This looks like a similar one:

http://www.recipezaar.com/Hot-Pepper-Butter-Mustard-for-Canning-137562.

I know there is still the flour problem with this and possibly a pepper problem. I guess what I'm actually looking for is ANY jalapeno recipe that uses prepared coarse ground mustard instead of prepared yellow. Would anyone have a recipe even remotely like that? If not, is there a "Hot Pepper Butter" recipe known to be tested and safe that I might be able to experiment with in using this other mustard? Or is this still a "can-at-your-own-risk" idea? The mustard is "Great Value Coarse Ground Mustard" from Walmart. I know it probably won't help, but here is the link from Walmart's website to look at the ingredients.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=10449840

Sealing in sterile jars has its advantages in terms of longevity and reduction of oxidation, but the sealed jars are better refrigerated.

Actual "canning" of mustards - i.e. BWB (There are canned mustard recipes, though not this one.) is not necessarily the best option anyway. Application of heat dulls the mustard flavor, which is not what you want, especially in a pepper mustard.

Carol

Or is this still a "can-at-your-own-risk" idea?

Since you are using an untested and unapproved recipe and from a known unreliable source fro canning recipes (recipezaar) then yes, it is still a can at your own risk recipe. There are all sorts of so-called "canning" recipes available on the web. But that doesn't mean they are safe.

And if, as Carol said, something can't hold up to even minimal heat processing then it is a cooking recipe, not a canning recipe and should be treated as such - prepared for fresh use only, not canned for shelf storage.

Dave

To return to your original question, use whatever sort of mustard you want. It really doesn't matter if it's coarse seeded mustard or the smooth French's hot dog style.

What we're saying is your question about the type of mustard is irrelevant to the actual issue because the mustard isn't the safety concern. Reducing the sugar "probably" increases the risk, though to what degree I have no idea. Sugar is a dessicant; in other words it binds water, and botulism needs available water to multiply. In other words, it helps compensate for the liquid in the peppers.

I "suppose" risk could be reduced by soaking the pepper pieces in the vinegar overnight (acidifying) them. And by making a slurry of the flour and vineger. (Also acidifying the flour.)

But again, I'm using words like "probably" and "suppose" because I have no scientific proof, no data, whatsoever. The only reason I'm even mentioning these options is that if you decide you're going to seal and shelve the mustard anyway, then these actions should improve your odds.

People can (or seal) all kinds of things. And they post the recipes online. That doesn't mean what they're doing is a good idea.

My "guess" is the risk is minimal because of the mustard (whichever kind) and the vinegar. But I can't emphasize enough that it's only a guess. Too many people can foods based on a gut feeling or misapprehensions or ignorance about the issues which arise when you start sealing stuff in a vacuum.

We can't tell you what you want to do is OK because we just don't know. Again, the optimal option is to allocate space and refrigerate. Sealing and shelving at room temp is a personal choice. Using coarse mustard is no better or worse than what you're already doing.

Carol

As Carol mentioned, the risk is PROBABLY minimal, given the mustard and the vinegar. To reduce your risk even further, could you just cook the stuff until it's thick enough, thereby negating any need for flour at all?

With the quart of vinegar I think the acidity level is OK, but the density issues remain, as well as that sticky issue with the flour....

And, of course, none of us can guarantee that it's safe because none of us have the ability to test it. Everyone chooses the risk level they are comfortable with, so I'd focus on getting rid of the problematic parts of your recipe and see what can be done with the rest.

Annie

This is a cooking recipe, not meant for canning. The Recipezaar site is one of my pet peeves. There canning recipes are just terrible from a safety standpoint. That is the main issue for me, so many of them are just cooking recipes that people have taken and tried to invent canning methods for them.
Sorry, but you should just make this and keep in the fridge. If you seal jars, then boutlism will grow faster since you cut off the air supply. That is how botulism grows, in the absence of air.
I have no idea how this would freeze, but you could try a jar and see.

Yes, but if you seal jars and refrigerate, there shouldn't be an issue. The cold coupled with the acid that is in the mixture doesn't support the growth of spores.

However, if you refrigerate, you certainly don't need to bother with sealing.

There should be a "caveat canner" beside all of these recipes that get posted online.

Carol

Yes, but if you seal jars and refrigerate, there shouldn't be an issue. The cold coupled with the acid that is in the mixture doesn't support the growth of spores.
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So, if it is possible to grow in a sealed jar on the shelf, why wouldn't the same can be said of a sealed jar in the fridge ? It still shuts of air supply in a sealed jar.

I know there is a recipe from USDA for corn relish with flour, but again, this is tested, and the recipezaar recipe isn't.

Because botulism requires warmth+low acid+an anaerobic environment.

It's not one thing. It's several. Botulism is deadly but it is also picky. Spores don't multiply in cold.

That's why sealing jars with low-acid product that hasn't been processed at sufficient temperatures to kill the spores and then leaving them at room temperature is the big risk.

It's also why many of the pioneers who open-kettle canned or processed briefly didn't face much risk. They put their foods in root cellars and by the end of the winter the jars were empty. (Spring was a hungry time.) So basically, they were storing most of their foods under refrigeration.

Carol

I was also taught that it was a combination of warmth/low acidity/anerobic conditions that allowed the growth of the spores that give off the toxin that causes botulism.

So, if the warmth is taken away, i.e., the stuff is refrigerated, you've removed one of the necessary components for the growth of the botulism spores.

Doesn't mean the stuff wouldn't eventually spoil, though...

I also agree about RecipeZaar, and many other sites. People can put anything at all on the internet, and they do. Some of the things that are promoted as canning recipes just astound me, I can't believe that people actually think they are a good idea.

Annie

Carol,
Botulism doesn't have to have the heat to grow in all cases. It makes a difference at what temperatures and also what kind of bacteria it is.
Besides, is this persons refrigerator even at safe storage temps. ? We don't know if his/her refrigerator is cold enough to begin with.
I don't pretend to know what strain of botulism we are talking about here in the mustard with flour. I have only been trained in just "botulism" when it comes to preserving foods, not the various kinds other than the basic food, infant, and wound types. Not the specific ones in specific types of food products.
I am not willing to tell this person this is safe to seal up and store even in the fridge.
##############

Several conditions must be present for the germination and growth of Clostridium botulinum spores. Acid level is a primary factor. Acidity is measured on a pH scale of 0 to 14, with 7 considered neutral, 0 to 7 acidic and 7 to 14 alkaline. A pH near 7 or neutral favors the growth of Clostridium botulinum, while growth is inhibited at a pH of 4.6 or lower. The pH of a food also has an influence on the amount of heat necessary to kill the spores of Clostridium botulinum. The higher the pH (lower the acid level), the greater the amount of heat needed to kill the spores.
A second important factor affecting the growth and toxin production of Clostridium botulinum is temperature. Proteolytic types grow between temperatures of 55 and 122 degrees F, with most rapid growth occurring at 95 degrees F. Nonproteolytic types grow between 38 and 113 degrees F, with an optimum for growth and toxin production at about 86 degrees F. For these types, refrigeration above 38 degrees F may not be a complete safeguard against botulism.

As storage temperatures increase, the time required for toxin formation is significantly shortened.

I was taught that refrigeration does not stop the growth but only slows it. How slow? I don't know.

Per FDA: Refrigeration will not prevent growth and toxin formation by nonproteolytic strains unless the temperature is precisely controlled and kept below 3°C.

3C = 37F (I think). I can't swear my fridge is always 37 degrees or colder since we are in and out of it so much and it is crammed to the hilt. Not to mention the grandkids don't always close the door. :(

US/FDA: BAM Clostridium botulinum

Also found this info from the London Ministry of Health on temperature control and linked it below just for some temp range info for what it is worth:

Botulism temperature growth ranges:

Group I - Minimum 10C (50F), optimum 35-40C (95-104F), maximum 45-50C (113-122 F).

Group II Minimum 3.3C (38F), optimum 18-25C (64-77F), maximum 40-45C (104-113F.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Ministry of Health

Minimum 50F and minimum 39F. Well, let the poster decide. If it were green beans, I'd think there was a risk, but if we're talking mustard, even with peppers in it, I wouldn't be too concerned.

It's a difference of opinion.

Carol

I should have added, I'd love to hear of any case (or cases) of botulism under refrigeration.

Carol

ummm think we are getting a little carried away again refrigerated mustard with vinigar is going to kill us all now?

Personally I don't see the likelihood with a mustard, even an untested one, but I do appreciate having the possibility of botulism growth at cold temperatures pointed out to me, because it led me to do some research.

Only one strain of botulism grows at those temperatures, type E, and it's generally associated with seafood or perhaps poultry, not mustard or even peppers. But I did come away with some valuable new information that will affect how I handle smoked salmon next time I make it.

I'm going to stick with my original suggestions re the mustard. The OP is the one who decides.

Carol

Thank you all for posting. You have, for the most part, answered my question. I completely understand your concerns in not saying "it's ok to do it this way, it won't hurt you". I understand the "probablys", "supposes" and "my guesses" are to be followed at your own risk. You have provided alot of insight on canning safety that I wasn't aware of in the past.

That being said, I think I am going to do the following: try to find a "tested and safe" similar recipe on a reputable canning site (if you know of any links, please post them), (but if not, use my friend's original recipe), and add less peppers, less flour and cook them longer and use the coarse mustard. I may also try acidifying them overnight like Carol stated. I do think I am going to decrease the sugar though, but not by much. I will also use common sense before eating it. Obviously, if the lid has popped, or has visible bacteria, mold or other growth, smells, looks or tastes funny, then I will without a doubt, pitch it. I will also eat very small amounts the first time after storage until I'm sure it hasn't made me sick. This will also be stored in a very cool basement at all times and will soley be for my use only. I will also be using my past experience when canning this. The original recipe (which I can't find but can get) was given to me by a friend who has been making this for decades, as well as his mother before him, and they have never stated sickness or contamination with any of their batches. I have made this myself the past 3 years and have never had a batch go bad or have gotton sick.

So my line of thinking is, although not "tested and safe", if I decrease the amount of ingredients that cause botulism (aside from the sugar), and increase the ingredients that help prevent it, I "should" be at least as ok as I was with the last recipe, if not in better shape.

If you feel my logic is seriously flawed in some way, please speak up...I will proably start this recipe tomorrow.
Thanks again, and if anyone has any known safe canning sites with good recipes, please post them for me.

P.S. Anyone have any safe ideas for preserving habaneros? I also have a ton of those with no idea what to do with them! Might just freeze or pickle them but I really wanted to be a little more creative than that ;)

and if anyone has any known safe canning sites with good recipes, please post them for me.

Don't know that they have mustard recipes as it is a bit unusual but as for safe canning recipe sites there is always NCHFP. It is the primary source for all the current guidelines and the basis for most all the standard canning manuals. It is cited in most discussions here.

Then there is freshpreserving.com Ball's website as well as the Bernardin site (Canadian equivalent of Ball) which is homecanning.ca Any recipe from any of those sources is tested and approved. And of course there is the Ball Blue Book, a resource no home canner should be without.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: NCHFP

Pyro as far as your habaneros I have been smoking then dehydrating or freezing chilis there is also habanero gold jelly talked about a lot on here or hot sauce

I just got a copy of ball complete book of home preserving wish I had a while ago with 450 pages it has so much more info than the nchfp site or my ball blue book and gives some helpful hints on final use of the product also which I find handy

Forgot to mention all the great recipes here too (search 'Leesa') not to mention all the university extension websites including your own state (whatever it is) extension website. Links to many of them are included in discussions here on a regular basis. A couple of them are:

University of MN Extension

University of MO Extension

CO State University Extension

Every state has one. :)

Dave

Thanks for the websites. I already have the Ball Blue Book of preserving, but I think I might pick up the Complete Book of preserving. Sounds like it has alot more. As far as smoking, I would love to do that, but I don't have smoker. I'm wondering if I can somehow do it with a charcoal grill or make something to attach to it...I've already dehydrated and pulverized a bunch though. I call it death powder lol! Going to have to use it a toothpick full at a time! I'll have to check those other sites for ideas. Thanks!

I know Ball has some mustard recipes for canning. I can't remember if they are in the Blue Book or the other one. Maybe both. Since I don't like mustard I don't pay much attention to the recipes. I remember a cranberry mustard recipe, though.

Sounds like death powder(: You can definatly smoke on a grill the only difference with my cheap smoker is the rack is about 18 inches above the coals it doesn't take much heat and then some woodchips for smoke

Its not like when doing meat you won't have to accually cook the peppers just flavor them
I got the complete book on Ebay for under $20 shipped it has so many recipes I hadn't thought of and they are all approved of course(:
Have fun

One of my favorite websites is "preserving Food Safely" from Michigan State University.

It has instructions for things like sausage and sauerkraut as well as canning instructions and recipes and dehydrating information

I'd link it but my stupid Vista won't let me.....

Annie

If you can get your pH below 4.6, you will be safe from botulism. It cant survive in a lower pH. You might be able to find pH strips at a pool supply store or somewhere online.