I guess I should ask too what are my risks/chances of getting poisoned from it? how the heck would I know? I literally bit into it and spit it all out...

How did they look? Any description you can provide about the recipe, the odor, appearance and taste will be helpful in determining what the issue is.

Carol

there was a tiny bit of cloudiness on the bottom, above the pickling spice and garlic cloves but I assumed it was the settling of the salt. The pickles themselves had a dark green to them. There was an odor but almost a 'sweet' odor, that is really the best way to describe it. I just went and emptied all the other 5 jars into the garbage and really hope by biting into one that I didnt do something awful to myself!! I suppose I would know soon, eh?

I've posted a link to the recipe (I'm assuming) you used below.

As far as safety goes, you're not in any danger.
With a straight vinegar brine (no water), you don't have a bacteria issue.

The only thing I can think of is that there's a LOT of spices/seasonings for a pint jar.
1 T. pickling spice
1 T. dill seed
4 heads of dill
PER PINT!!

That would be a bit strong for me and I'm a dill lover!
I don't use pickling spice in my dills. That may be where the "sweet" factor comes in. I'm not sure what all is in their combination of spices, but many include some traditionally sweet spices like allspice, clove, cinnamon.

I prefer not to have those in my dills.

Any other info you can include?
Were the pickles soft or crunchy?
Were they evenly colored throughout?
Too salty?

Sometimes you make a recipe that just doesn't fit your tastes too.

Deanna

Here is a link that might be useful: WS Pickles

What a strange recipe! Based on previous posts about it, the WS book isn't noted for good canning recipes for several reasons so likely this is another one.

Like Deanna said, I don't see any safety issue but I would expect some way too intense flavor issues, even off flavors from all those spices. That is as much spices in 1 pint jar as many recipes call for for the whole batch.

Dave

PS: thanks for looking up the recipe and linking it Deanna. Kerry - The recipe itself or a link to it really needs to be included when questions are posted about one.

Thank you so much Deanna for the information. Dave, I apologize for not including the recipe. It is as follows:

3 cups white vinegar
2 T kosher salt
6 T pickling spice
6 large marture dill heads or 24 sprigs of fresh dill
24 cloves of garlic
36 peppercorns
6 lbs cucumbers

all the above for 6 pints of pickles... I am really upset to hear that the WS book is not noted for that good of recipes. Though I did make the tomato basil recipe it had in here and it is as watery as can be, a shame and almost worth just throwing out...

as for the pickles. I am blaming it on maybe bad pickling spices (this is the first recipe I have used it vs creating my own) and they do contain cloves, cinnamon and such like Deanna mentioned. The odd thing is that they did not taste dilly, at all, or smell like dill.

the color of the pickles was consistent throughout, they were all were green vs the cucumber part staying white with a hint of green to it. they were not soggy (success in the aspect, eh?!)

I did throw and am distraught about what the heck made them taste so simply stated, purely awful.

Thanks again for all your helpful advice and guidance!

I believe I posted originally about the Williams-Sonoma book. I had some concerns re. the safety of certain recipes but never did receive a satisfactory response to my emails and ended up putting the book on my discard pile.

One of the authors was pleasant and responsive but unhelpful; the other was condescending and didn't address the issue.

Since I first posted I did look the recipe up. Frankly, I think it sounds dreadful. There are differences in pickling spice blends so that might have been a factor, but I've never seen the benefit of using pickling spice in a dill.

Not to mention white distilled vinegar is exceedingly harsh. I don't think 6 weeks or so is nearly enough aging time for a pickle with that sort of 100% distilled vinegar base. 3 months maybe.

Carol

Yuck ! I could not imagine pickling spices and dill together. Then, straight vinegar ??
That book does have some scary recipes, as far as safety issues, too.

I made dill pickles with the Heinz pickle recipe. They are really good !

gosh- thank you all. Like I said I have made many other recipes before and this was the first to call for pickling spice and dill but I thought it was a WS recipe so it 'had' to be good... so a rookie I am and admit it (been canning only 3 yrs now). Though I did just go through my 3 cabinets full of canned goods and only a few are from WS, most from Ball and I made an Emerils Sweet & Spicy pickle too.

as for the WS recipes that you question the safety on, could you share with me please so I can completely cross off my list?

Here is a link that might be useful: Emerils Sweet & Spicy Pickles

as for the WS recipes that you question the safety on, could you share with me please so I can completely cross off my list?

Not without going through each recipe individually and that isn't possible as few have the book. There are many frequently recommended canning books. Books that many experienced canners have explored and tested. Based on what I have read on other canning forums and heard from others here whose opinion I highly regard, this particular book been one of them. :)

Thus the recommendation to discard, or at least don't use, the book. Any canning book that gets panned, has safety issues pointed out in it, and has authors who fail to respond to questions or respond inappropriately needs to be shelved.

Dave

Fortunately I haven't discarded the book yet, so I pulled it out of the GoodWill box (though I'm beginning to wonder if in good conscience I can donate it). So many questions have come up about it lately, maybe I should hang on to it anyway.

For the first three chapters on jams, jellies, preserves and curds everything is OK except the hot pepper jelly. The pepper jelly may also be fine; I haven't yet checked the ratio of vinegar to know for sure.

Don't can anything in those three chapters that call for refrigeration (i.e. the pumpkin butter). Refrigeration is definitely the appropriate choice.

The pickling chapter is . . . unconventional and I'd have to look at each recipe, but I immediately flagged the pickled beets. First, reserving some of the cooking liquid for the pickling syrup is not current practice. No matter how well-washed the beets are, the cooking liquid is quite dirty and a source of bacteria. Secondly, the ratio of cooking liquid to vinegar is very high, 2:1,and thirdly the 7 minute processing time is way way below the recommended 25 minute processing time. Even sliced, beets are quite dense. So that recipe is a huge red flag for me.

In the salsa chapter I inquired about the Roasted Tomato-Garlic Salsa as it has a good amount of onion and garlic, a very small amount of fresh lime juice and some olive oil yet is BWB. I never did get an answer on that one.

I am similarly unsure of the Eggplant & Tomato Relish, which is eggplant, onions, garlic, plus Kalamata olives and olive oil (fat) with only 1/2 cup of red wine vinegar for 6 half-pint jars. No idea if that's OK.

Other concerns are Chipotle Ketchup, Summer Pepper Sauce, Peach Barbecue Sauce. Typical of these problematic recipes is the latter, with lots of chopped onion and garlic, 1 cup of Worcestershire sauce and 1/2 cup of oil. I'd really want to be sure that one was tested.

Other recipes just plain irk me because they're basically just tweaked NCHFP or BBB recipes, nothing original. So some of the book is a waste of money for that reason.

There is some good in the book but it takes an experienced preserver or someone with a background in food science to know which are OK as written and which are doubtful or problematic. Generally I don't think it's good value for the money.

Carol

great... I currently have in my basement the hot pepper jelly, peach BBQ sauce, chipotle ketchup and the roasted tomato garlic salsa. UGH. what would you recommend I do? I would really hate to throw them out but obviously safety is my #1 concern. I was actually planning on bringing some of these jars on a weekend trip this weekend for us to try out.

Thanks again.

Here is a link that might be useful: roasted tomato garlic salsa

the link above doesnt seem to be working. below is the recipe for the peach bbq sauce:

http://www.williams-sonoma.com/recipe/peach-barbecue-sauce.html?cm_src=RECIPESEARCH

peach bbq sauce:
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/recipe/peach-barbecue-sauce.html?cm_src=RECIPESEARCH

chipotle ketchup:
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/recipe/chipotle-ketchup.html

roasted garlic salsa:
http://www.williams-sonoma.com/recipe/roasted-tomato-garlic-salsa.html

The Chipotle Ketchup recipe isn't written for canning so shouldn't be canned. It is a fresh-use recipe and recipe states refrigeration only. So no, it isn't safe to can. It is all low-acid ingredients with no added acid. It is a potential botulism nest if canned.

The Tomato-Garlic Salsa looks too low in acid for me, especially since it calls for fresh lime juice rather than bottled. That is too many low-acid ingredients for such a small amount of acid and it also uses oil.

IF I were going to make it then I would at least pressure can it but best would be to freeze it, not can it. BWB with such low acid and the oil in it wouldn't be safe enough for me.

Got a eye doctor's appt so I'll leave the Peach one for others to address.

Dave

the chipotle kethcup recipe is for canning... this is from the book:

4 lb tomatoes
2 T oil
2 yellow onions
4 cloves garlic
1 t coriander
1/2 t all spice
1/2 cup cider vinegar
2/3 brown sugar
1 can chiptole in adobo sauce

process in WB for 15 minutes, store for up to 1 year in a cool dark place.

I just confirmed the links I posted for the bbq & garlic salsa are what I used. Thanks again for the help.

the hot pepper jelly is as follows:

3 red jalapeno
3 green jalapeno
1/2 sweet onion
1.5 t celery seed
3/4 cider viengar
2.5 cups sugar
1 cup liquid pectin

I did just compare the Chipotle Ketchup online and see as you said that it is entirely different from the one in the book.

Honestly, you could take all the product but the pepper jelly, boil them for 10 minutes and then freeze. It depends on your comfort level, but that should definitely kill anything in there.

The basic problem with all these recipes is they present red flags with no assurance they were tested for safety. Maybe they are safe but I never could figure that out, which is unfortunate in the extreme.

The pepper jelly is likely OK. As long as that onion wasn't huge. Basically a recipe like that should have about 3/4 cup total of low-acid peppers and onion (chopped).

I hope this helps.

Carol

talk about frustrating. Seriously. I buy a book and can a crap load of stuff out it bc it sounds delicious, no I am not a scientist but I trust that the people who publish the better named books had scientist test their products. I follow the recipes, i do not deviate one smidgen and now I am stuck with possibly having to throw out a TON of really good products that took a lot of time. I am going to email WS since I cannot get through on the phone and also sending the recipe to my local MSU agriculture extension office and see what they say about them.

I am currently making BALL red hot sauce and will be only sticking with them for the remainder of the season. I am so disappointed.

I feel badly you put all that time and ingredients into something so awful. I work for my local county extension office. I saw that book and just about fainted at some of the recipes.
They have a bad name with me now !
As for the hot pepper jelly, that looks fine.

Sometimes a recipe that appears questionable is actually safe as tested. For example, the marinated peppers in lemon juice and oil which are occasionally discussed here.

So maybe some of those recipes are perfectly fine, but I find it incredibly exasperating that I couldn't get any assurance whatsoever one way or the other from anyone involved with the book.

Those pickled beets are definitely something I wouldn't can and that's one I am sure about, no question.

I am so sorry. To see all that time, effort and product wasted is a huge downer.

Carol

I most certainly agree that it is frustrating. Especially to those new to canning who don't understand the important differences in canning instructions vs. cooking cookbooks. Most any cookbook can be trusted. But while there are many so-called "canning cookbooks" out there, safe canning books are limited in number.

We often make the mistake of assuming that any one who takes up canning recognizes that cooking is an art while canning is science and that they know who and what the reliable sources are - Ball if nothing else since they have been around forever.

the chipotle kethcup recipe is for canning... this is from the book:

Sorry but I was just going by the links you provided. As I mentioned before, this isn't a book many of us would consider buying, or if we did - keeping. So I have no access to it.

Do you live on the West Coast/California, Kerry? I always thought Williams-Sonoma was only well regarded in that part of the country. One never hears much about it in the south. From prior discussions here it seems California is famous for its niche canning books that don't meet the national guidelines, and they don't seem to care if they do or not.

Carol made a great suggestion too. Boil them for 10 mins. and then freeze them.

Dave

While you guys are mentioning canning cookbooks, I'd like to ask about 1 more.

Growing and Canning Your Own Food
by Jackie Clay

I haven't made anything yet, but I was wondering if any of you are familiar with it, and what your opinions are.

Thanks.

Here is a link that might be useful: Growing and Canning Your Own Food

Jackie Clay is scary !! She cans butter, milk, all kinds of crazy things. I would not trust her at all.

Jackie says you do not have to peel potatoes before canning. That is not true. Potatoes need to be peeled since that is where botulism spores are. You cannot insure all the spores are removed, even by scrubbing them.
Thenk, she says it is fine to add rice to soups before you can them. No rice, pasta, barley, etc. is safe to add.
She also says to can beef fat in jars.
Please, do not listen to her advice... I know she means well, but those are not safe methods.

I agree that I wouldn't trust Jackie's recipes. As much as I love reading Backwoods Home magazine, the recipes are not up to date. Some may be OK, but how would one know for sure? I believe the website still has a recipe for Pumpkin Butter and that's been a no-no for quite some time.

Obviously, she can do as she wishes, but it doesn't mean I'm going to use the recipes. Or, if I do, I'll use alternate preservation methods or adjust to meet current safety standards (freezing, omitting risky ingredients, etc.).

Deanna

I wouldn't buy her book but I have read many of her online articles and those in the magazine. They seem to be VERY backwoods/homesteading oriented; meaning for those who are so isolated they have little choice but to "try" unusual preservation methods. That or do without.

She seems to at least make the effort at times to point out to the reader that "this doesn't meet the guidelines" (which is more than many authors do), but barring living in such remote isolation, I wouldn't use the methods/recipes she recommends.

JMO

Dave

Dave- I live in MI...

I have been away for a few days and thought I would share the correspondence I received from WS with you:

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Kerry
Hello Amy, Sarah and Grace,

I have the Williams Sonoma Art of Preserving book and have really enjoyed it thus far. I have been doing a lot of canning from it and recently have had a couple people mention some of the recipes may not be safe. That is obviously an extreme concern of mine as I have two young children and plan on giving my jars as gifts as well.

Can you tell me if your recipes have all been tested and approved? If so, by whom? If not, please include someone who can on this email and feel free to forward this on. I would hope the people that have said they question the recipes are wrong but I now need to be sure.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation and expediency in this matter.

Kerry
______________________________________________
Hello Kerry,

All recipes were definitely tested and approved by the three authors, all of whom are expert canners -- Becky Courchesne and Rick Field are actually professional preservers (Frog Hollow & Rick's Picks are their businesses), and Lisa Atwood is a seasoned recipe developer / cookbook author. Additionally, all photographed recipes were retested on set. If you have questions about specific recipes, I am more than happy to send queries directly to the authors.
Feel free to contact the Associate Publisher directly for more specific questions: Amy Marr

Kind regards,
Grace

definitely tested and approved by the three authors

Tested for taste. Were they tested for pH and density? That is what makes them safe for canning.

professional preservers (Frog Hollow & Rick's Picks are their businesses)

I guess that makes any one who cans foods for sale a "professional canner"?

Dave

Sorry, I don't accept that either. tested and approved can mean a lot of things, including tested and approved for their tastes or buyer appeal, but that isn't the same as saying those recipes meet safety guidelines re bacterial growth. I still have not received any specific assurance from the authors that those recipe meet current home preserving guidelines and are sufficiently acid to be appropriately BWB canned.

I realize that Rick Fields sells pickles commercially, but nevertheless his pickled beet recipe in that book is appalling.

And in an email to me Becky Courchesne acknowledged she was responsible solely for the sweet preserves (not an area of concern) and was unable to provide any information about how the savory and pickled recipes were developed or tested.

So I find that response either incomplete or duplicitous.

Carol

I've been reading this post with interest. But my eyes practically bugged out of my head when I saw the reference to Rick's Picks. This company produces a line of low sodium pickles. Because my husband is on a sodium restricted diet, I ordered an assortment last year. Upon delivery, two jars of pickles were leaking. I did manage to get replacements, so I have no complaints regarding customer service.

But the taste... that was a whole other issue. I ordered five different varieties (mainly dills), hoping that we'd find a favorite I could order over and over again. Both my husband and I found the pickles inedible. Yuck! I had to spit out some. What a disappointment!

From my experience, if a recipe is in any way related to the folks at Rick's Picks, I'd run like the dickens.

(For what it's worth, I have ordered low sodium pickles from other sources that were fine tasting. Yes, you notice the missing salt, but at least they don't make you gag.)

Here is a link that might be useful: Rick'sPicks Low Sodium Pickles

I am not pleased with you response you got, either.
My job is to teach food preservation and food safety according to current USDA guidelines. I saw some very unsafe recipes for canning in that book.

can I ask how you guys determine what recipes are tested properly?

Thanks

That isn't a simple answer but primarily it is scientific lab testing. That is the only way to know what the pH and density are, how stable that pH is and how long it will hold on the shelf, what internal temperature is achieved during processing, how and what bacteria are cultured out of the food at various intervals AFTER processing, etc.

First it would be has the recipe been lab tested, preferably by the USDA/NCHFP labs and approved for canning. As long as one sticks with the approved books or with the recipes online at NCHFP there are no problems.

Second choice would be lab tested by one of the state university extensions and approved. As long as one sticks with recipes from the university extension websites and publications then there is no problem.

Third would be books by an author who has their own established and published credentials in food science/food preservation. Ellie Topp is a good example of this.

Next would be an author who isn't trained specifically but spends the money and makes the effort to have his/her recipes USDA lab tested and references that testing in the book.

Then would be the individual, trained or who develops a canning recipe and pays to have it food lab tested and approved (as Annie did for her salsa).

I think that covers the basics but others will have more to add.

Dave

The USDA standards are established principally for the home food preserver.

Many recipes are not USDA-approved but are still tested and safe. Lots of labs have that capacity. For example, Oregon State has a small entrepreneurship program which supports new purveyors of small-yield bottled food products and offers lab facilities for the testing to assure products are safe for sale.

However, they would still have to be safe when processed and meet FDA plus any state regulations.

Basically it comes down to the credentials of the person(s) who wrote the book and what they have done to assure food safety according to the criteria Dave indicated.

One of the problems I have with many recipes/books is that the author(s) may have credentials but not necessarily credentials appropriate to home food processing.

So Rick Fields, for example, does sell commercial pickles and relishes. However, he has available to him processing equipment not available to the average home preserver. Without his assurance of specific testing and safety in the home environment who knows how suitable the recipe is?

I might add that in the home environment developers of canning recipes need to be sure they fall within a certain margin of error because there's more individual variation when you have many cooks using different product. In a commercial environment there's much more consistency.

So Beverly Alfeld, for example, in her pickling book never goes above 4.3 pH, even though the limit for higher-acid BWB is 4.6 pH. She believes that leeway is important.

Basically, I operate with a do not assume stance. My default position with any doubtful recipe is it isn't safe without very specific assurances, not merely the generic statement emailed by Williams-Sonoma.

Carol

So can I assume that you all agree that anything published from the Ball book should be safe?

thank you all for your help. should I bother contacting WS again in regards to how the recipes were specifically tested and what the PH levels were?

in regards to the WS bruschetta recipe vs the Ball Bruschetta recipe, can you tell me why one would be safe over another?

Ball: http://www.freshpreserving.com/recipe.aspx?r=78

bruschetta:
5 lb tomatoes
1 1/4 cups dry white wine
2 T white wine vinegar
2 T balsamic vinegar
4 cloves garlic
1/3 cup fresh chopped basil
2 T fresh lemon juice
process 20 minutes in boiling water bath.

So can I assume that you all agree that anything published from the Ball book should be safe?

Yes, everything in the Ball books and on their website is either directly from USDA/FDA/NCHFP or based on their testing recommendations. Ball has always been an approved source.

Main difference is that the Ball recipe has been lab tested and proven to be safe for long term shelf storage. The WS recipe has not (as far as anyone knows).

The Ball recipe calls for approx. 1/2 the amt. of tomatoes so if we double the Ball ingredients to approx match the amts of tomatoes in the WS book you get

4 lbs tomatoes vs. 5 lbs
1 cup dry white wine vs. 1 1/4 c
1 cup white wine vinegar vs. 2 T
2 T balsamic vinegar
1 T dried basil instead of 1/3 cup fresh (fresh herbs change pH to alkaline)

So more vinegar in the Ball for less low acid ingredients. Whether or not the 2 T lemon juice would make for the lower acidity in the WS recipe I can't say. Maybe. Is the WS recipe safe? Maybe. No way to know without testing.

Bottom line, canning recipes from the WS book will be do-at-your-own-risk unless the authors will own up to commercial lab testing for pH and density.

Dave

Here is a link that might be useful: Ball recipe

I think an important distinction is we're not saying the W-S recipes are unsafe but that whether they are safe or not (based on what has been said so far) is unknown.

Basically it's a matter of evidence one way or the other.

Oftentimes, you can take a recipe from a questionable source and compare it with a similar recipe from a reliable one, as Dave did with Ball. In many cases, minor tweaks or changes will make the recipe assuredly safe to process without changing its essential character.

In other instances, you can delete questionable additions and can a base-recipe then add other ingredients when the jar is opened. This offers the additional advantage of reduced consumption of energy and shelf space.

Carol

So I heard from the author and have to say I have been very happy with their correspondence. the email is below:

Hi Kerry,

My editors at Weldon-Owen Publishing forwarded to me your concern over the safety of some of the recipes in The Art of Preserving Book. I am the writer responsible for those recipes.

For my recipes, I followed the guidelines set by the USDA Guide to Preserving. The link is: http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publications/publications_usda.html

Although I did not test with a ph test kit, I overcompensated the amount of acids required for preserving ingredients (like tomatoes and chiles) that are low in acid. The USDA recommends adding 2 tablespoons lemon juice per every quart of tomatoes. Lemon and lime juice have a ph that is lower and therefore much more acidic than vinegars (about 2-2.5 ph as compared to about 4.25 for cider vinegar). For the tomato recipes, I also recommended canning in smaller 1/2 pint jars which makes for safer canning.

If canning tomatoes still makes you feel uncomfortable, I would recommend purchasing a pressure canner. We did not include pressure canners in our book, since they are an uncommon tool for most home cooks, choosing instead to acidulate any low-acid ingredients.

For the Peach Barbecue Sauce, I feel confident that the lemon juice, cider vinegar, and bourbon (if used) is enough to adequately acidulate the peach sauce.

I hope that I was able to adequately respond to your questions and concerns. Feel free to contact me if you have any more questions. I would recommend taking a look at the USDA Guide to Home Canning. It was a great resource for me. I also look to the Ball Blue Book of Preserving for good base recipes.

Regards,

Lisa Atwood