You can't substitute vinegar for lemon juice. Lemon juice is much more acid. You can only sub the other way around - i.e. lemon juice for vinegar.

Carol

Carol is 100% correct.

Dave

OK. Thanks again.

Cindy

Can you sub twice as much vinegar for lemon juice? That's what NCHFP says for adding directly to jars for canning tomatoes (2 Tbsp vinegar or 1 Tbsp lemon juice)? Though I don't know how vinegar would taste in pizza sauce - maybe red wine vinegar?

As Carol said, you cannot substitute vinegar for lemon juice. As is often posted here by many of us, you can always safely substitute bottled lemon juice for vinegar but you cannot substitute vinegar for bottled lemon juice.

You are taking an NCHFP statement out of context and trying to apply it to a totally different recipe. That is a real stretch and shouldn't be done.

The NCHFP directions for canning tomatoes state in boldface type: Add bottled lemon juice or citric acid to jars. They do not mention vinegar.

One has to go to the general acidification instructions to find any mention of vinegar and even then it is only in passing. The general tomato acidification instructions:

Acidification: To ensure safe acidity in whole, crushed, or juiced tomatoes, add two tablespoons of bottled lemon juice or 1/2 teaspoon of citric acid per quart of tomatoes. For pints, use one tablespoon bottled lemon juice or 1/4 teaspoon citric acid. Acid can be added directly to the jars before filling with product. Add sugar to offset acid taste, if desired. Four tablespoons of a 5 percent acidity vinegar per quart may be used instead of lemon juice or citric acid. However, vinegar may cause undesirable flavor changes.

Read the vinegar note in the context in which it is written. It is an after thought, a "yes you can if you insist for some reason but you'll regret it if you do". It is clearly not the preferred nor recommended method and is limited only to whole, crushed, or juiced tomatoes.

Dave

That's why I am suggesting it as a *possible* substitution (rephrasing the original question) and I said it may not be the best idea. Offered an alternative to the flavor issue (red wine vinegar, of course 5% or greater). It's up to more experienced people than I to say whether my suggestion has merit.

Please explain why if vinegar can be used for acidification of whole tomatoes, in double the amount, why it would not be appropriate for sauce.

Please explain why if vinegar can be used for acidification of whole tomatoes, in double the amount, why it would not be appropriate for sauce.

First because the BBB recipe in question doesn't offer it as an acceptable substitute. If it were possible then it would be listed as an alternative.

Second because the recipe in question is mixture of low acid vegetables, not just plain tomatoes. So if adequate acidification with vinegar was even possible it would be of an unknown amount but more that the 4 T permitted, but not recommended, with the plain tomatoes.

As I said the one and only place where vinegar is even mentioned as a possible option is in the general explanation of the acidification instructions. It isn't offered as an acceptable substitute in the instructions for canning plain tomatoes or to any other recipe/set of instructions.

It's up to more experienced people than I to say whether my suggestion has merit.

No it doesn't. As Carol and I said above and as Linda Lou and many others have posted on other threads, vinegar may not be substituted for bottled lemon juice.

Dave

That is right ! It is never safe to sub vinegar for bottled lemon juice.
We don't even recommend vinegar for plain tomatoes any longer.

OK, it was just a suggestion, since I saw it in NCHFP course for canning tomatoes. I was waiting for the experts to chime in (didn't know why it wasn't suggested, thought you were just saying can't sub 1 for 1 since it's lower acid). Interesting that you don't recommend vinegar for plain tomatoes any more b/c it *is* still on the NCHFP website and their coursework.

Glad *that's* cleared up!

Interesting that you don't recommend vinegar for plain tomatoes any more b/c it *is* still on the NCHFP website and their coursework.

NCHFP doesn't recommend it either and hasn't for years. In fact as the quote I posted above points out they discourage it. Big difference between "recommended" and "allowed". It may be allowed for plain tomatoes because some old time canners - the ones that still BWB their green beans and add aspirin to their corn - like it for some reason. *shrugs* No reasoning with some of them.

Dave

I read the NCHFP acidification instructions, and maybe I'm a moron, but I wasn't able to figure out that I really wasn't supposed to use vinegar instead of citric acid or lemon juice. NCHFP does not use the words "recommended" or "allowed" in that paragraph at all. And they don't even use the word discourage.

Dave - I respect your knowledge and opinions a lot. But, in this case, I think you are just reading something between the lines here that doesn't exist.

This year I've put up crushed tomatoes and marinara sauce - I've done 1/3 of the jars with citric acid, 1/3 of the jars with lemon juice, and 1/3 of the jars with red wine vinegar.

Some of us aren't
"old time canners - the ones that still BWB their green beans and add aspirin to their corn - like it for some reason. *shrugs* No reasoning with some of them. "

We're just following instructions that we read on NCHFP.

I'm not reading that it's discouraged either (except for taste which is personal decision). Nor is it ""only in passing". The course includes a section in Canning Acid Foods, with a subsection on Acidifying Tomatoes, and it certainly doesn't seem to imply that using vinegar is inferior ("If tomatoes have a flavor that is too acidic, add sugar. Vinegar can also be used to acidify tomatoes at a rate of 2 tablespoons per pint or 4 tablespoons per quart. However, it will affect the flavor.").

Thanks for referring me to the course, BTW. Maybe you should check it out to see what I mean. I happened to use lemon juice since that *is* what they said to use in the Activity, but I might have used red wine vinegar if I had had it (and hadn't had lemon juice), since it had been listed as being acceptable in the previous section. In fact I might prefer the flavor. Note that the Chunky Tomato Basil recipe uses red wine and red wine vinegar.

I *am* intrigued by Linda Lou's comment though. This must be very new, since the NCHFP course was last reviewed (updated?) in Feb 2010.

Okay, fine - whatever. To me, and I would argue to most people, the statement "causes undesirable flavor change" is a clear recommendation against using vinegar. What do they have to do? Come right and say "if you add vinegar it will taste like cr*p?

Maybe this quote from NCHFP is more convincing:

If you wish, you may safely substitute an equal amount of lemon juice for vinegar in recipes using vinegar. Do not substitute vinegar for lemon juice. This substitution will result in a less acid and potentially unsafe salsa.
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/how/can_salsa/salsa_ingredients.html

Or this one:

An equal amount of bottled lemon juice may be substituted
for vinegar in recipes, but do not substitute vinegar for lemon juice.
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/publications/uga/sensational_salsa.pdf

Or this one:

Do not substitute vinegar for the lemon juice.
http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/how/can_salsa/tomatillo_green_salsa.html

Or any one of the 8-10 other quotes one can find at NCHFP.

The original question was answered. You cannot substitute vinegar for bottled lemon juice. But then what do any of us know. We just make all this up as we go along, right?

So if ajsmama or you or anyone else wants to substitute vinegar for lemon juice then by golly you just go right on and do so. You are the one that's got to eat them.

Dave

We're not talking salsa here. I'm not familiar with the pizza sauce recipe (maybe that had lots of veggies like salsa) but I am still wondering why you and Linda Lou are saying vinegar isn't recommended for tomatoes and as of Feb 2010 NCHFP is still saying you can use it. Certainly "may cause undesirable flavor changes" is a bit more discouraging than "will affect flavor" but isn't it up to the cook to decide whether it "tastes like cr*p"? Personally, even if it's safer to use lemon juice than vinegar, I don't think I'd want to eat lemon-juice pickled cucumbers.

If NCHFP doesn't think using 4Tbsp of vinegar for a quart of tomatoes is safe, then why is it in their course?

We can debate this all we want, I hope Linda Lou can shed some light, if not, I will try to contact NCHFP next week.

I freeze all of my tomatoes now - lots easier!

Bejay

We can debate this all we want, I hope Linda Lou can shed some light, if not, I will try to contact NCHFP next week.

No one wants to debate it except you, just as all your posts indicate that you want to debate everything apparently. Oh, and maybe pixie lou even though she knows better. Everyone else is fine with it. And no we aren't talking salsa. But then we weren't talking about plain tomatoes either until you stuck it on. We were talking about the BBB Pizza Sauce recipe.

Linda Lou already posted on the issue and you argued with her response.

When you have 1/2 the knowledge and the experience and education on the subject many here have then you can dispute and nitpick everything we say if you insist. Until then why not try to benefit from the knowledge we have and offer you free of charge. Take it at face value instead of repeatedly pointing out to us that none of us know what we are talking about?

Oh, and by all means just try to take it up with NCHFP. Thanks to their lack of funding now we are all left high and dry with only each other to rely on. So you can learn from us or you go it alone.

Dave

The OP inquired about the Ball Complete Book of Home Preserving Pizza Sauce. In that recipe 1/2 cup of bottled lemon juice is called for. Since the recipe doesn't mention vinegar as an acceptable substitute, it shouldn't be used even if quadrupled (which clearly would be unworkable for other reasons, taste and consistency among them).

Since vinegar is mentioned as an acceptable (though not optimal) substitute in various plain canned tomato products, it can be used for those recipes.

The problem is that some may conclude that the ratio of vinegar to lemon juice in those tested recipes (4:1) holds true for all other products containing bottled lemon juice, and that's not the case. That's why the NCHFP says not to switch vinegar for lemon juice [barring those recipes where vinegar has been specified].

In an ideal world the USDA/NCHFP would have communicated more clearly the rationale, but they're over-stressed and under-funded and sometimes they aren't as clear as they'd wish to be.

The Chunky Basil Pasta Sauce was developed and tested by Ellie Topp using red wine vinegar and red wine (which is also an acid). A scientist with a PhD in experimental foods, she has the skills and resources to develop new approaches to canning.

Canning rests on science and verification, not assumptions. It is an evidence-based discipline. It can be very risky to conclude without proof that one can transpose a method or ingredients from one recipe to another. Perhaps red wine vinegar in some unspecified amount could be used in other recipes in lieu of lemon juice, but only lab testing would confirm that fact.

There's no sense in arguing a hypothetical. I think this discussion has begun to get ugly, which is not a good thing for Harvest. I hope we can all just let it go.

Carol

Dave, I offered a suggestion based on what I read on the NCHFP site for tomatoes, and this was a tomato-based sauce. I accepted your explanation that it was not acceptable for this sauce, Linda Lou mentioned that vinegar was not acceptable for plain tomatoes any more and that got me wondering why it was in the course that was just reviewed in February. I did fill out NCHFP's form to ask them that. It could take 2 weeks for an answer.

Carol, thank you for your explanation of why we can't substitute acids even in similar products. I'm sorry to have steered this conversation away from the original question but I still would like to hear from Linda Lou when/why/who has decided vinegar is not to be used in canning tomatoes. I will let you know what NFCP says - maybe they will take it off their site. But I'll start another thread then.

Frozen tomates taste almost as good as fresh!

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

Good point Bejay! ;)

Carol - your exceptional amount of patience and tolerance for dealing with the pointless and mundane never ceases to amaze me. Thank you.

Dave

Is it possible to substitute citric acid for the lemon juice?

Is so, what would the rate be?

I just am not fond of the lemon juice taste.

Thanks.

Cindy

The NCHFP site says you can use citric acid - 1/4 tsp for pints, 1/2 tsp for quarts.