Melva, I use fresh lemons when making jam with no commercial pectin because I can add the seeds and pith in a cheesecloth bag during the simmering stage. Those things add pectin and help my jam set up without the commercially manufactured pectins.

As for yield of juice per lemon, it varies here too. Some lemons are very juicy, some not at all. Some are big and some are small. The "experts" say that a lemon has about 4 tablespoons of juice but even they agree that the amount varies greatly. That is probably why recipes call for 1/4 cup or a specific amount rather than "the juice of one lemon".

Plus, I just don't like the taste of bottled lemon juice.

Annie

I specified fresh juice for the reasons Annie gave. It's purely personal, but I loathe bottled lemon juice. Too many chemicals and too strong a taste. I fear it would overwhelm the preserve and I go to too much trouble making the stuff to risk ruining it with an artificial ingredient.

Ferber's recipes usually call for "the juice of one small lemon" which I assume is approximately 1/4 cup - 4 tablespoons. But I don't obsess about it if the lemon is bigger or smaller. Generally I just use what I get from reaming one lemon and I've never had a failure yet. (At least not because of the lemon, LOL.)

Carol

When I can't get fresh lemons, I use bottled lemon juice. I never use pectin, and I find the lemon juice (bottled or fresh) is quite enough to make jams and jellies set beautifully.

I don't measure. I just squeeze the bottle (or the lemon, as the case may be). I make only small batches of jam, so 'a splash or a squirt or two' is quite enough.

MinuteMaid has had a fresh frozen lemon JUICE in the freezer section for many years that I used exclusively before moving to CA where fresh lemons are readily available. I can't stand the bottled stuff.

Can someone explain what a citrus reamer does, please. Not something I've ever come across over here. At least not by that name.

Fantes has a page (link provided below) that shows illustrations of some common types. It's merely a tool for extracting juice from halved citrus, most often lemons.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Citrus Reamers

Ever seen the new generation of juicers. They are egge shaped and you place the half fruits upside down and the lid pushes them inside out while squeezing. I like using lime juice for many recipes, and the Nelliw & Joe's brand has always been consistant. For a bit bolder flavor, the Kermit brand is a good choice too. Ever had key lime fudge? Wow!

Thanks for the info. I always put bottled lemon juice in recipes, even straight onto hot linguini with olive oil, thyme, and pepper. Tastes lemony to me, so I used that in the two recipes from Mes Confitures I prepared last night. One was seedy raspberry jam made with red & black raspberries, and one was chocolate raspberry jam made per Melly's modifications. Both are still searchable on the forum.

Melissa

Can someone please explain to me why I can't use fresh lemon juice instead of bottled? The way I understand it, the acidity is purely to lower the pH.

interesting that this thread should pop up again just as I was researching the question --
I still haven't found a satisfactory (to me) answer, but here are the facts so far:
l. I MUCH PREFER THE TASTE OF FRESH LEMON (OR LIME) JUICE.
2. Lemon juice is more acidic than vinegar.
3. NATL. CTR (etc) calls for bottled lemon juice and cautions not to substitute vinegar or fresh lemon juice for bottled.
4. Ball Blue Book calls for bottled lemon juice or citric acid in its BWB processed tomato recipes, but simply calls for lemon juice in other recipes.
5. A series of tests showed that bottled lemon juice produced lower PH in salsa recipes(http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/papers/2004/04ift-tomatosalsaPoster_combined.html)

I haven't found any tests using fresh (or frozen)lemon juice nor have I found any information on WHY NCHPF(or Ball) specifies bottled.

That's as far as I have progressed ... any help out there?

well, my line of reasoning takes me to two places:

1. perhaps different varieties of lemons have different pH levels, and the recipe makers are going for consistency and covering their butts regarding food safety (perhaps overkill)

2. fresh juice will have lots of happy enzymes in them and the canning process is meant to halt enzymatic action. the bottled stuff is probably pasteurized to death.

but i'd like the reason from someone who actually knows what they're doing. ive only just now gotten to the point with my gardening prowess where i have enough bounty to bother preserving...

I searched, but this seemed to be the most relevant thread.

interesting that this thread should pop up again just as I was researching the question --
I still haven't found a satisfactory (to me) answer, but here are the facts so far:
l. I MUCH PREFER THE TASTE OF FRESH LEMON (OR LIME) JUICE.
2. Lemon juice is more acidic than vinegar.
3. NATL. CTR (etc) calls for bottled lemon juice and cautions not to substitute vinegar or fresh lemon juice for bottled.
4. Ball Blue Book calls for bottled lemon juice or citric acid in its BWB processed tomato recipes, but simply calls for lemon juice in other recipes.
5. A series of tests showed that bottled lemon juice produced lower PH in salsa recipes(http://www.uga.edu/nchfp/papers/2004/04ift-tomatosalsaPoster_combined.html)

I haven't found any tests using fresh (or frozen)lemon juice nor have I found any information on WHY NCHPF(or Ball) specifies bottled.

That's as far as I have progressed ... any help out there?

The answer to your question is it depends on what you are making. If you are making jam, it doesn't matter whether you use bottled or fresh because the lemon is not intended to lower the pH, but rather to help with the set. Most jam is high acid and does not require lemon to lower the pH, with a very few exceptions, such as figs.

However, if you are canning something like salsa which is a mix of low acid vegetables and tomatoes, the lemon is required to lower the pH. You must use bottled lemon because the acidity in bottled lemon is standardized, just like vinegar. You also use bottle lemon when canning tomatoes, because they are considered borderlne pH. Again you use a standardized substance like vinegar, or bottled lemon to lower the pH to a safe level.

Petro

Does the processing method come into play? (note annie increased her vinegar from 1/3 cup-pressure to 1 cup-BWB for her salsa recipe).
I looked in Ball, but all of their tomato-canning recipes call for BWB.
Proper pressure canning reachs 240°F which (according to Ball) is hot enough to destroy the bacteria, their spores and toxins.
Ball also says that proper BWB of acid foods (212°) is adequate to destroy molds, yeasts, enzymes and some bacteria .. (Of botulism, they say their "toxic producing spores are not destroyed at 212°... (and) thrive on low acid in the absence of air in moist environments." )
I think I've just answered the question at the head of his posting ...
either switch to pressure canning or use recipes that have been tested and don't mess around with the acid content.
Thanks goodness, most sites say I can come up with my own seasonings.

The processing method does matter, but it also doesn't. Annie's salsa recipe is only one of two tomato recipes that I know of that have been explicitly tested for pressure canning and her 1/3 cup of vinegar is for taste not safety. The 1 cup of vinegar is for safety as that is for BWB processing. There is also a stewed tomato recipe that contains no added acid that is for pressure canning only.

The other tomato recipes that you will find do not say that you can skip the added acid if you pressure can (in fact they say you cannot), and if you spend some time asking the powers that be why that is, you will eventually find out that those recipes have not been tested for pressure canning. They include directions for pressure processing but those directions invariably have been determined by conversion charts from BWB testing results and so although you are pressure canning you are not reaching the 240 degree temperatures possible with a pressure canner, but only 212. You are no safer pressure canning these recipes than you are processing via BWB.

So the true answer is use recipes that have been tested and don't mess around with the acid content, even if you switch to pressure canning.

There are rules to substituting and it's not quite as inflexible as you might believe, but you always have to remember what you are trying to and why. If you dislike bottled lemon you might try citric acid in your tomato products.

Petro

Shelbyguy, as Petro says, your #1 is the reason. Not just lemon varieties but individual lemons vary in acidity. Bottled lemon juice is made from concentrate and diluted to a standard acidity.

Lemon juice is required in pressure-canned tomatoes because otherwise they would have to be heated even longer. As Petro points out, the benefit of a pressure canner is only that the tomatoes get hotter faster since the water-steam mixture is hotter in a pressure canner (240°F at 10 psig vs. 212°F at 0 psig). Notice that the same amount of lemon juice is required for both.

Melissa

"They include directions for pressure processing but those directions invariably have been determined by conversion charts from BWB testing results and so although you are pressure canning you are not reaching the 240 degree temperatures possible with a pressure canner, but only 212"

I'm confused ... do you mean that 212° is all you can be SURE of because a pressure processing time has not been determined by testing for that particular combination of ingredients?

Oh boy, the more I learn the more I realize I still have to learn. Thank goodness you guys and gals are out there. Many thanks for all your guidance.

It's probably clear by now, but anyone who wants to use bottled lemon (or lime) juice in jam recipes can certainly do so. I just have a personal preference for fresh, but there's no safety issue either way.

You can also take a recipe which calls for a certain amount of vinegar (i.e. a relish, salsa or pickle) and use BOTTLED lemon or lime juice in lieu of the vinegar because the bottled product is even more acidic than vinegar. So in effect you've increased the margin of safety, not reduced it.

However, never subsitute vinegar for bottled lemon/lime juice if that's what the recipe calls for, as the increased acidity of the bottled citrus is an important element of its safety.

Carol

When both a BWB canning time is given and one for pressure canning for a particular food, they both wind up being equal in preserving safety. For example, tomatoes packed raw in their own juice, the 85 min. in a boiling water bath is the same as using a pressure canner at 11 lb.dial gauge (10 lb. weighted gauge) pressure for 25 minutes. The bottled lemon juice, bottled lime juice or citric acid is still needed in both.
If the added acid was not used in pressure canning, the time needed for processing would be longer. There is no time given for a longer time without the added acid because most folks would not want to pressure can longer, that is what I have been told.

Readinglady - if you're still out there, thanks for the information on reamers. Now I know it's what I would call a lemon squeezer. Talking of kitchen tools, I am a great fan of the lemon zester, which does an excellent job when you just need the zest for flavour. And has anybody found a juicer which really works and does not require electricity? We have broken several of the pull down arm variety and I really do not want to go electric.

Flora,

Has the Lee Valley rasp made it into UK kitchens yet? This is a "microplane" tool designed for woodworkers that has become very popular here as a kitchen zester/grater. I LOVE mine --- it zips that zest off lemons, grates a garlic clove in no time, grates hard cheeses into micro-thin curls so you get LOTS of volume from a tiny piece....

Zabby

Here is a link that might be useful: Lee Valley Rasp

Daisy,
I have an Orange-X juicer that I splurged on when we lived in Hawaii and had access to free citrus. It has a lever action arm so it is very easy to use and shouldn't break. You don't have to exert much pressure. (It would be great for someone with limited strength, once someone strong had put it into place. You wouldn't want to have to move this thing around.) They also have a smaller household model that is slightly less expensive. It is also shorter, which means it might fit in the kitchen better but also can only have a small glass under it for collection of the juice. Their Ojex juicer does not have the same lever action arm. It is one of the pesky gear driven ones. I thought it worked pretty well, but you can read the reviews.
OrangeX commercial juicer at Amazon.com

Williams-Sonoma introduced a reproducion citrus juicer last year. It is identical to the one that my grandmother had and my mother still uses. I wouldn't want to use it to squeeze quantities of oranges but it works well for one or two. You have to be careful not to squeeze to hard to avoid getting the bitter taste.
Williams-Sonoma juicer

If your not to keen on using bottled lemon juice (some kinds taste dreadful), you can also use an equal amount of bottled lime juice, cider vinegar, or citric acid in a granular form. Because I like a more complex acidity taste, I use an acid blend of malic, tartaric, and citric. The three in combination equal the same acidity as citric alone. These acid blends tend to make thinks like grape wines have a more rounded flavor.

I think you mispoke, Ken. If a tested salsa recipe called for a specified amount of bottled lemon juice, you couldn't safely substitute an equal amount of cider vinegar because it is less acid. You could, however, as you mentioned, substitute an equal amount of bottled lime juice.

The citric acid I don't know about, or at least I don't know of a formula for substituting it for bottled juice.

Carol

I've read in these post, that citric acid can be substituted, but don't recall any specific instruction on how to measure it in the recipes that traditionally call for bottled lemon juice.

As I am also one that avoids the bottled juice, I would like to read more about using citric acid in such cases.

Or perhaps referred to previous posts on such measurement substitutions.

Bejay

Thats correct. I realized afterwards that vinegar, even though its 7% acid, its quantity in a salsa is different than a bottled juice, so more vinegar would be required. There is no difference in the acidity of a bottled lemon or lime juice however, and either can be used, but if a granulated acid like a citric or acid blend is used, a half teaspoon per quart is recommended to be safe for a BWB.

Vinegar is usually 5 % nowdays. It was 7% years ago, that is why many of the old recipes cannot be safely used nowdays. They were based on the old 7% acidity vinegar. You even have to watch some of the cheaper vinegars now, they are only 4% acidity and cannot be used.
Carol is correct about not using vinegar in place of bottled lemon or lime juice.
I also do not have any information that states the citric blend is the same acidity as the straight citric acid. I would have to do some research on that to say for sure.

And then there are those of us like me who get free lemons and limes on a recurring basis. So there is no way I would use bottled lemon juice for ANYTHING. The way we usually prepare it is that hubby squeezes a few dozen lemons or limes into a bowl. Thus the juice from many gets mixed together, giving us an "average" acidity which I do not believe would be very far off from what is in a bottle.

We freeze the juice in ice cube trays. We then store the cubes in ziplock baggies, and use as needed. We always err on the side of putting extra lemon juice in any canning recipe, just to be sure we are getting enough acid. We are also confident of swapping some lime juice directly for vinegar in salsa recipes, figuring there is no way the lime juice is less than 5% acidity, which is what all the vinegar bottles now say they are.

I don't see any problems with our method, and I agree that bottled lemon juice can taste nasty. Perhaps immediately upon opening it is okay, but it takes a while to go through a whole bottle. The frozen cubes of juice stay pretty fresh tasting and are always available in any amount. I also like to put them in my water.

Marcia

I personally wouldn't use fresh juice in a salsa recipe that calls for bottled. The product being canned has a high percentage of low-acid vegetables and I would be concerned it wouldn't take much of a margin of error for fresh citrus to be insufficiently acid. Even in the same type acidity varies depending upon growing conditions and time of harvest.

It might be interesting to take a pH meter and see exactly what the pH of the bottled stuff is.

Carol

I'm all for perfecting the use of a pH meter in canning recipes, to effectively reduce/eliminate the hazards of possible botulinism.

Is anyone out there listening? Is there such a "machine" available for consistent and/or efficient usage?

Bottled lemon juice - blech!

Bejay

what about frozen lemon (or lime) juice .... It certainly tastes better than bottled but I'm not sure if it's processed like bottled or if it's the real thing and therefore has inconsistent acidity. Anybody know?

I'd like to have a pH meter ... Bejay, I assume you don't know of one. In which case, I, too, hope someone is listening.

Here's a previous thread on pH meters. You might find some good information here.

Calculating pH is interesting. What I was taught is to strain out the solids, weigh them, purée them, test for pH, then test the pH in the liquid as well. Calculate what % of the whole is solids and what % is liquids and come up with an average pH based upon those proportions. You'd think we could just blend the whole thing, but that's not what's done.

I have a pH meter, but I don't use it very often, just once in a while for a relish or salsa. Still it is handy to have, as long as I allow for the fact that density is also an element of processing safety.

I have emailed companies with questions about pH, acidity, etc. Sometimes I have good luck getting a response, sometimes not. I emailed Realemon and got nada. But you might have luck emailing a supplier of frozen lemon or lime juice. I don't know how concerned they are about consistent acidity/pH. It's always interesting to see who responds and who doesn't. It definitely has an effect on my buying habits.

Carol

Here is a link that might be useful: Recommend a pH meter?

Kayskats, does the frozen lemon juice say "from concentrate"? The reason bottled lemon juice is good is that they start with concentrate and dilute it to a standard acidity. I bet the frozen bottlers do the same thing. If it says "not from concentrate" I would be pretty sure the acidity is not standardized and it's not safe. But like Carol says, probably safer to call.

Melissa

Linda Lou,

For what its worth, I asked the local wine hobby supplier to find out if their acid blend has a comparable acidity to citric alone, and she told me that the two other acids are granulated just like the citric. The drying and granulation process is the same. The tarteric acid she sells is not a powder like cream of tarter. She also used a pH test meter and made a solution of water (distilled) and mixed an exact amount of citric acid, and compared that with the same amount of acid blend and water. She saw no difference in acidity, and when each was diluted, they both appeared to be the same equal levels even after several dilutions and mixings of more water. Her granulated acid source is a major manufacturer of the granulated acids, and even though one is a tarteric and the other is malic, they all have the same acidity when mixed with the same water. The local supplier actually buys the granulated products seperatly and blends one third by weight with the other two. The actual amount of each acid might vary slightly, but this has little to no effect on the final acidity, only a slight flavor difference. I have used a few cider vinegars at 7%. Also, I still have 20% distilled vinegar here as well, and use that in canning mixtures where adding more water is not acceptable.