Pate is not safe to can. No pureed meats of any kind. It is too thick and dense and heat cannot penetrate it. Plus, if you are using liver, it is also not pressure canned. I asked Elizabeth Andress about liver. She wrote the USDA guidelines.
Also, I do not know how the texture of corned beef would be, but it would be done in chunks or cubes, like any other meat. You would put water in the jars like other meats.

Agree that any pate should be frozen, not canned. And I know that many folks can corned beef and you can use either the raw or the hot pack method. As Linda Lou said you just use the standard canning meats instructions:

NCHFP - Canning Meats Strips, Cubes or Chunks

Meats - Ground or Chopped

Dave

Canning USA has some great-sounding recipes but there are a number which are untrustworthy. There's just no way to verify if they're safe or not.

Obviously, as Linda_Lou said, paté presents particular challenges in terms of density. Years and years ago instructions were provided for canned meat loaf. I don't know when they were pulled, but it's been a long time.

I emailed the gentleman who operates Canning USA some time back with a few questions about his recipes and testing but never got a reply, which I suppose is an answer of sorts. I did notice later that one recipe I'd asked about was pulled.

Carol

Thanks everyone. Such reliable and fast information here!

Is home canning pate or a "plug" of uncut corned beef an "acceptable practice in Europe or Canada, or other places aside from the U.S? I note that the apparently nice people on the videos of Canning USA sound a wee tad Canadian. Its doubtful they are trying to poison family and friends and I wonder if like many other products and techniques, what is considered "safe" varies from nationality to nationality. This, of itself, is an interesting social divergence and the conversations about it are always interesting.

For what it worth, and with all due respect, the USDA hasn't always impressed me, and I wonder about other country's "authorities."

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The density issue is a difficult one.at least to my struggling reason. An example: when cold packing raw tuna, one cut the fillets (often called "loins") to very closely to fit the jarThis makes a very dense (and fast) pack and indeed this the specific reason for it. I pictured doing a "plug" of Corned Beef similarly; cut it out of the pickled brisket with a sharpened can-end or pipe the size of the jar to be used.

Wouldnt jar size have a lot to do with whether the heat could effectively penetrate the food with the pressure canner? In this regard, most I know pack raw tuna in wide mouth half pints and the Canning USA site was using exactly these sort of jars for their pate.

Thanks again, Roof

Thanks Carol, all very interesting.

I have been searching the web, and the ONLY government agency (or university extension) food preservation/canning sites I can get are from the U.S. I spent a good deal of time searching for the equivalent NCHFP (National Center for Home Food Preservation) in Canada, and while I found some information on the safe canning of seafood, otherwise I came up empty.

Doesnt England or Canada or Australia or New Zealand have similar agencies that provide in-depth government guidelines for home canning and food preservation? And those are just English speaking countries. What about the Scandinavian countries or Belgium or Germany -- France, Italy, Greece -- these places of famous cuisine.

And while I found no other nationalities represented on the web, here there are many, many university extensions, classes, government pages --- myriads of them concerning home food preservation and safety. So

This whole subject and endeavor seems peculiarly American! I suppose I should have guessed that; one cant even purchase canning jars in Australia or New Zealand anymore, and these are agrarian societies! They are reduced to garage sales to get the old Agee canning (bottling) jars, which mostly only came in quarts and if someone gives you a jar of jam it is a recycled lug top jar with a piece of plastic and a rubber band around it.

Here, in my neck of the woods, EVERY hardware store and lots of grocery stores sell canning supplies and every jar size possible. Fascinating.

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My particular desires arent a problem; I always follow standard procedures, and in this case, it appears that the only procedures standardized are ours.

Thanks, Roof

Doesnt England or Canada or Australia or New Zealand have similar agencies that provide in-depth government guidelines for home canning and food preservation? And those are just English speaking countries. What about the Scandinavian countries or Belgium or Germany -- France, Italy, Greece -- these places of famous cuisine.

Not that I have ever been able to find and I have spent a great deal of time trying to find it. This doesn't mean they don't exist of course, just that any info they may publish is not commonly available on the web. And, as Carol said, there is much less demand in many other countries, especially for pressure canning.

And while I found no other nationalities represented on the web, here there are many, many university extensions, classes, government pages --- myriads of them concerning home food preservation and safety. So

And most all are extensions of NCHFP either directly or indirectly and subscribe to the USDA guidelines with a few exception recipes. If one takes a canning class from their local extension all info provided is from NCHFP as they are the recognized authority.

I share all of Carols reservations about Canning USA (he should call is Canning France) and then some. As a source of canning supplies (his prime focus) fine, but not for canning instructions. ;) But as already said, ultimately the choice is always yours.

Dave

Thanks the good conversation, Dave. Canning is about the safest thing I have any interest in, I think Ill keep that way!

Wonder why other countries dont pressure can? Pressure cookers are immensely popular other places.But these vessels for food preservation, no.

I havent done the math or research, but energy expenditure wise, preserving food by pressure canning (in particular) must be pretty efficient. Id guess per unit stored, far more efficient than freezing. You are only boiling a small amount of water and once up to pressure, it only takes a small flame to sustain it. Id guess that BWB and jam or chutney making would use heaps more energy.

Along with time saving, its efficiency is why pressure cooking is so popular elsewhere also. But why they havent extended the principle to food preservation is a bit of a mystery.

Cheers

I have seen sources for what in Australia, New Zealand and the UK are called Kilner jars (The Lakeland chain is one source in the UK.) and of course in Europe and the southern hemisphere you can also buy Leifheit and Weck (German) canning jars. Weck's printed documentation provides information for pressure canning, though that may be a concession to U.S. and Canadian clients.

Redback Trading in Victoria, Australia does sell Ball jars. Ebay Australia, as with other ebay sites, does a brisk business in old preserving jars, including Fowlers Vacola, and Fowlers Vacola jars with lids, clamps and gaskets (similar to Weck) can also be purchased new.

So canning (preserving) jars and supplies are out there, are in use, and can be found but sometimes the search terms or search perameters vary.

I'm sure any Australian members on the forum can tell you more than I can.

These countries also publish food preservation books. There are lots published in the UK and a good number of Australian ones I'm aware of. (Australian Women's Weekly publications come to mind.) But outside the U.S. the tendency is to focus on higher-acid or acidified foods, not pressure canning. For pressure canning the NCHFP/USDA and the Ball Blue Book are the gold standard world-wide.

Generally Australia, New Zealand and Canada follow USDA recommendations. I wish I'd saved the link for a university home economics Australia program which utilized the USDA manual. I've seen the same on New Zealand sites.

Those standards are well-known, and while, again, there are some cultural differences (i.e. outside the Western Hemisphere sweet preserves - jams and jellies - are not generally water bathed) in terms of the bigger picture the same concerns for safety exist and the same standards are followed.

Anyone in any country studying food science is going to be aware of the same principles. The pH of beets is the same whether you call it "beets" or "beetroot." Pickling eggplant presents the same issues whether you call it "aubergine" or not. It's not as if the basics of bacteriology or food preservation change when you're in the southern hemisphere.

If you're canning, especially low-acid, it doesn't matter where you are. You still have to be concerned (if you're wise and aware) about pH, density, heat penetration, contamination, optimal storage conditions, etc. etc.

That being said, in all of these countries there are vast numbers of home food preservers (The NCHFP has an interesting survey on-site.) who are anywhere from 30-100+ years out-of-date in their canning practices.

All anyone has to do is hang around cooking and canning forums to hear from people who open-kettle can, who don't acidify tomatoes, who boiling water bath green beans with vinegar or do any number of things that range from the marginally concerning to the downright scary.

So even if I saw on an Australian cooking forum a discussion about open-kettle-canning tomatoes, I wouldn't take that as anything a reputable Australian food science authority would recommend.

I'm not sure what you're asking. If you're asking about the odds of success for finding what you want re processing corned beef or paté in some other country, my guess would be "nil".

The only exception would be discussions or technical handbooks establishing country standards for commercially processed foods. So it wouldn't be impossible to find a document which gave times and temperatures for processing some sort of meat in a Swedish food processing plant. However, that isn't going to translate to conditions in the home using non-commercial equipment. While it might be interesting to know, practically speaking it's useless.

I did, once, look up the commercial standard for the amount of citric acid used in ginger preserves because no current reliable home preserving book provides that information. However, on level of risk that rates miles below canning paté.

Carol

I don't know of any agency in the UK which pertains to Canning, but people do can but we call it bottling, I have 2 books from 1968 which include a section on BWB recipes, which include low acid foods, when I found this site, I was totally baffled by it, My conclusion is that Botulism is more prevalent in the USA than the UK, as in the soil, I read that in the last 25 years there had been 33 cases of botulism in the UK, 27 in one outbreak from a food supplier and the another 3 people who eat Polish Sausage.
I do think per head the UK would have as many people food preserving, in fact Clatterford is actually Called Jam and Jerusalem, in the UK as the WI are jokingly depicted as making Jam all the time :) I used to buy all preserves in the Village Church which members had made and donated to raise funds.
I have put up a very dry link but the tables are clear and it shows cases of botulism in the US and UK as well as the rest of the world. up to 1990

Carol,

My initial question was answered: there are no safe recipes (by our standards) for canning liver pate. Then I wondered if other countries had different standards about what constitutes "safe." An observation. Sound science may well be sound science, but how one interprets "safe" varies widely. What some would consider safe others may not, whether that is use of certain agro chemicals, medical procedures or medications, or, food preserving practice.

Having now found out that there are few guidelines for the canning of low acid food because by enlarge only Americans and Canadians widely use pressure canners, I can now understand why no one else has standards. By now, my interest is strictly academic: why dont other cultures pressure can more frequently?

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In New Zealand there are very few sources for new canning jars and the brand that used to be made there, Agee, are only available at flea markets etc. This is why one gets gifts of jam or chutney or pickled items in re-used grocery jars. Ball jars are exceedingly expensive there and not generally available outside of the largest cities.

There is a lot of jam and chutney making, but not much preserving of low-acid foods. In general, canning was at one time very popular there and proper equipment and closures were used. One can still buy the "perfit" lids and rings that fit the old Agee jars.

On the Internet I did see one site where Salmon was boiling water bathed canned. And another, where, cleverly, a person canned huge amounts of fruit in a converted oil drum....using the old but correct jars.

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Heather, what kinds of jars do folk use in Britain?

The tables are interesting, Heather, though as those are raw numbers, it's difficult to determine if there are fewer, similar or more cases per capita in the U.S. We do know in terms of home canning here the frequency and the foods in which botulism has been reported will vary from region to region.

Regarding the jars and USDA standards issue, two things occur to me.

1) Re-using jars is more do-able with BWB as more types of jars can withstand processing. Also, as many sweet preserves and high-vinegar chutneys, etc. are not BWB in countries like New Zealand, basically any sort of jar can be re-used. Even glasses, including wine glasses for a pretty presentation. That would also mean with a smaller country, smaller population and different processing patterns that there's much less demand for canning jars and probably not the market incentive to offer them except in a limited way.

In the U.S. and Canada, with their vast agricultural landscapes and larger populations, there's always been more demand, at least in rural areas. Even in the "down times" when interest in home food preservation was reduced, there was always a population which continued the tradition and provided a steady, if smaller, market.

Now that the recession has inspired increased interest in home food preserving (Jarden has enjoyed 20+% increases in business the last couple of years.) canning supplies are more widely available.

For English jars, check the link. I had already mentioned Lakeland as one source. As far as New Zealand is concerned, here is one supplier:

Preserving at Milly's.

Yes, it's expensive, but many Americans new to canning might well say the same thing. Not to mention that most things are expensive in new Zealand relative to wages.

I thought the All-American pressure canner is interesting.

2) USDA standards: Other countries don't want to re-invent the wheel or devote their resources to replicating information already "out there."

Carol

I think a lot of the reason is money. Do you know it takes a minimum of $10,000 per recipe to test ? It can take upwards of $50,000 to test some recipes and methods !
Now you may see why it is not done. Also, I am not sure who or where the canning jars outside of the USA are made.
It takes a great deal of time, money, and effort to get all the information, testing, equipment, supplies, etc. to provide things necessary for people to be able to process foods at home. Then, unless there were only weighted gauge canners used there would need to be places to test dial gauges yearly. Then, a place to get new gaskets, over pressure plugs.
I feel we are a blessed nation to have so much available to us.
Here books that old would be considered solely for historical reference. Nothing prior to 1994 would be recommended for use and even many of them would not be even considered safe and reliable.
I sure agree about the guy on the so called "Canning USA" site. It is very misleading. He is not from the USA at all. I know he feels what he is saying is correct, but some of it just isn't. He did have the meatloaf in a jar a while back. I have not checked his site in a while to see what is still on there.

The whole point of raising your own meat is to have better meat.

Freshly made pate is going to be miles better than canned pate.

I suggest that you freeze the liver raw, and when you want pate, take out some of the frozen liver and cook it into pate.

I would freeze the brisket or round and take it out, brine it into corned beef and cook and eat it as soon as it was properly brined.

Fresh home made corned beef is going to be vastly superior to canned corned beef.

"I would freeze the brisket or round and take it out, brine it into corned beef and cook and eat it as soon as it was properly brined."
Roof,
Good advise but one of the reasons to can is to have some quickly available meat for casseroles, sandwiches, or just a quick meal.
I would can corned beef in chunks in pint jars simply because I may want just a small quantity of meat of my choice. Brining a whole, or half brisket, is not something one does when living alone. They are simply too time consuming and too large for ready consumption.
I routinely can turkey meat as I want a pint of turkey meat to be available anytime I want some turkey. I have a 12 ounce jar in fridge now. If I want cold cuts, a sandwich, or a taco, I pull the lid. I do not buy a 16 pound turkey and cook it if I want a sandwich. I buy them seasonally when on sale and then use it all year.
Interestingly, I have gotten use to canned turkey and very much enjoy it. Oregonwoodsmoke is familiar with his tastes and I with mine. It was interesting the first time I served rare ahi (fresh tuna) to guests. One couple said they were so disappointed because it did not taste like tuna is supposed to taste - you know, the tuna in the can.
So I guess a lot of this is habit and what you have grown accustomed to. I used to eat kippered herring as a kid in Canada and loved them. I have not seen them in decades now that I live in the States and don't know whether or not I would still relish them as I once did.
Just my thoughts.
Jim in So Calif

Roof - do you live in NZ or were just there in the past. No location on your login or posts so I'm just curious about the name of the equivalent organization to the USDA in NZ?

Dave

Thanks all the replies. You have made an interesting and informative conversation!

Dave, yes. I have spent a lot of time in NZ. At one time, canning, using proper jars (which are marginally heavier than ours and very durable) was very popular. New Zealand was and still is to some degree a very rural country. Like here, canning has been supplanted by freezing. Essentially that mostly explains the lack of supplies now. And I have met a few folk who used to use pressure canners. I think they called them retorts or autoclaves.

Carol is right; with BWB canning for such things like jams or chutneys, the grocery food jars work fine. Lack of pressure canning aside, the problem is the shelf life of these products AND the entire loss of canned fruits. Everyone (of a certain age) in NZ remembers their Ma or Grandma or Grandpa canning peaches or plums or other orchard crops. I dont know how they used do Lambs Tongues, for instance, but there must be those who miss those too! Essentially, NZ is an example of somewhere that used to do something that has now been mostly lost.

Thanks the freezing tip, Woodsmoke. Some miscreants (like me) actually prefer some things canned. In my case, the canned pate was just a whim; something to do with the livers. I could envision having some small jars of some delicacy, but going through the whole process of making pate frequently from frozen liver isnt so appealing! Additionally, Im not so keen about freezing in general. We can have long power outages as well.

Appreciate the tips JimnGinger. I will brine some brisket and freeze it, but again, like the pate, I was envisioning a handy lunch to make from a small jar. I have canned beef chunks, which I like very much, and it occurs to me that I could make these taste like Corned Beef if I wanted. Commercially canned Kippered Herring is very common and popular in Northern California grocery stores. I havent tried to home can any, but home canned smoked fish is very doable. Sardines, Herring, Smelt and Mackerel, Salmon and Tuna... Generally, I have found that home canned fish or meat is far better than what one able to purchase. Canning fish as opposed to freezing it, is, to me, a much much better approach.

Thanks again!

Woodsmoke, you said:

"The whole point of raising your own meat is to have better meat."

Without trying to define what is "better," there is a much greater reason that I prefer to raise my own beef, or hunt or fish, or grow my own veges beyond taste or even healthfulness.

I prefer to know where my food comes from and be responsible for it. I don't want to support concentration camp livestock or fishfarming or the growing of huge monocrops. I don't want to be afraid to kill my own food and if I was, I wouldn't eat that food. Death is death, but torture is an entirely different ballgame that I want no part of.

To me, it is only a bonus (but a rather large one) that such foods also taste better and are more healthful. This is why it is interesting that in a place like NZ, for instance, where folk used to much more capable, they too have succombed to the great divide beween themselves and their food.

Cheers, Roof

Speaking as a grass-fed beef fanatic and paté aficionado, who spent quite a bit of time living in Francophone countries where both canned and fresh French paté was available.

Canned paté is awful, vs the freshly made stuff. I think it has to do with the high fat content, which doesn't go through the process very well, let alone the spices.

I'll second the idea of freezing the meat/organs, then thawing and making what ever it is, corned beef or paté, fresh. I've never found that homemade paté freezes that well, but corned beef sure does.

Thanks the advice, David.

Well eat a portion fresh and freeze most of the Corned Beef, and I suppose most of the liver too. Plus there are kidneys to think about.

A further question. Would it be better to freeze the brisket before curing, or the other way around? Id prefer to have the pickled article in the freezer vacum wrappped and ready to go.

Roof

Well, we generally get the meat already frozen, unless we make a special request for, say, a specific piece of meat that we want to further process at home. We'll do that with jerky and rump meat.

it's worth remembering that its a couple hours work unloading the boxes and organizing the freezer and getting everything put away in good time.

If you were to boil up your salt/spice mix the day before, have that cooled and ready to go, and request the brisket not be frozen, I don't see how that would be a problem.

bump for this time of year

Most of the discussion took place back in 2010. Here we are 7 years later and I want to can chicken liver pate. The only resource so far is an internet recipe that water baths the ½ pint jars.

Surely, by now someone has tested this to see if it can be safely done?

Further testing was done but the results were the same when it comes to canning pate - not approved due to density and heat penetration problems. As a result of the subsequent testing even some vegetable pate were found to be unsafe and removed from the approved guidelines.

And if for some reason I was going to do it anyway I most certainly would not BWB can it.

You can freeze your pate with no risks.

Dave

French have a potted meat called cretone that I've been canning for years. I can it in 8 and 4 oz jars. It's traditional to use pork but I use venison. I've not tried liver Pate yet but my potted cretone is a hit.