At 26 hours things have changed:

Ken writes: > I mix my cultures in a covered bowl, as opposed to a bottle with screw on lid.

That's fine for those with experience. I want to see what's going on. Who knows, in a few months I might be doing this in a more conventional manner. :P

I really appreciate your help in all this.

jt

OK, I finally feel comfortable with cultivating the starters. At day 4 they reach peak acidity at 75°F. At day 5 they have started to get less acidic.

Somewhere between day 3 and day 4 would seem to be the best time to dry for preservation and possibly to use for making bread etc. Perhaps earlier would be better?

I now want to make hard sourdough pretzel pieces like the Snyder's brand you can find in stores. They will have to contain hot pepper powder or flakes and will probably be rolled in extra coarse sea salt before baking. The pieces should be finger size in width and maybe an inch long with a nice golden brown crust.

Would Ken or anyone else please lead me through a procedure starting with the sourdough starter and other ingredients. I'm pretty good at following instructions, but just don't have a feel for baking bread yet.

Thanks in advance

John, I bake a lot of bread. In fact, I bake all my bread, I never buy that fluffy store stuff.

However, here in Michigan my house never gets above 60 in the wintertime, and I turn the heat down to 50 during the day while I'm at work so my house is not warm enough to start and maintain a good starter. Sourdough has to wait until spring.

Nonetheless, here are some good instructions to "start" some starter. I like the rye flour, it works very well for me but I tend to have rye on hand for the dark rye bread that I love so much. Good luck, it's easy to start a good starter if the conditions are right.

I also know that readinglady has been using a starter that she began several months ago and Ann T on the cooking forum has been making everything from pancakes to french bread using strictly sourdough starter that she started in the fall.

Since I can't figure out how to post two separate links, here's the detailed instructions for a starter, and they are extremely similar to the ones I used a couple of years ago (until I got so darned tired of sourdough that I tossed the starter and quit!) I could type out my own instruction, I suppose, but I fail to see any reason to "reinvent the wheel".

Annie

Annie,
The site here, has only the single link provision, but you can copy and paste links into the text like I do. To copy text, highlight it first, then use CTRL and C, and then position the cursor to the new location, paste is CTRL and V.

As to pretzels, they will be way too salty of the dough is rolled in salt, or even the big crystal pretzel salt. I will roll mine in sesame seeds to totally coat them, but just a sprinkle of salt is needed. The pretzels get a dip in warm water mixed with baking soda. This helps to brown them and make the seeds or salt stick better. They get baked at about 500 degrees is you want a soft chewy pretzel, that is in the oven for only about 10 minutes. For a crispy pretzel, bake at about 325 or even 300, and the slower they bake, the more crisp they become. Also, soft pretzels are usually a softer sticky dough, while a crisp pretzel is usually a stiffer dryer dough. Both get rolled into a 2 foot long rope (or smaller) at about 1/2 inch in diameter and twisted, then dipped in the water soda, then the seeds or salt and then baked.
For bread, your choices are many. Either long french style loaves, or in a bread pan, or on a stone in the oven If its on a stone, use corn meal as a non stick agent. Breads usually get baked at about 325 to 375 degrees, depending on the size and color. If you want a very crisp crust, put some water into a spray bottle and spritz water into the oven every 5 minutes. Also a small pan or boiling water at the bottom of the oven will help give a crispy crust. If you want a bread that will keep well without getting hard all through, add some potato flour, and also a little ascorbic acid which helps the yeast as well as prevents mold.

Annie,

I need to brush up on my html code too. I used to know how to shut it off so could post 'how to' info, but ever since Spike sold out don't know how to do as things changed on GardenWeb. This is what inserting a hot link would look like:

Cooking forums intimidate me as Y I am not a cook Y (my Nixon impersonation) I can smoke and BBQ like a champ, make one skillet meals and burritos, but that's about it except for once yearly several gal pots of chili and also beef stew to freeze. "The Joy of Cooking" and "The Cook's Bible" are my go to books. I very seldom eat bread these last few years. Only eat one meal per day just before going to bed and 90% of the time is a ho-made burrito and lately with some of my fermented veggies. Very healthy actually.

I'll give the cooking forum a visit later today. It's where I should be posting baking questions anyways.

Thanks!

John, the Cooking Forum has a lot of people who just like to eat too, as well as the ones who love to cook. Come on over and tell 'em Annie sent you!

Annie

Annie -

I probably should be posting on the Cooking Forum as well. However, re - your recent post above - about bread rising in the cold.

It has been my understanding that sourdough bread is best rising in cool temps - "long slow rise" for better result.

My last attempt produced a rise that wasn't too bad, but it was in a cool pantry. When I brought it out into my warm kitchen (after the sun came out and solar energy did it - honest), it began to "quiver" and fell slightly. Of course, you can just imagine my chagrin.

Anyway, since then I have been re-thinking the "cool temp, long-slow-rise" concept, and would appreciate some clarification of this most important issue.

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

Bejay, that's true. The sourdough bread makers will tell you that a long slow cool rise will give a better and more developed flavor. I think Readinglady was keeping dough in the garage overnight and another was using the refrigerator.

However, at 6 below zero last week the bottles of water in my garage freeze, so that's colder than optimum. LOL I could rise overnight (or longer) in my refrigerator if I chose to, it's warmer than the garage

However, my problem isn't with the dough made with an already developed starter, it's with the starter itself. I was making a starter from scratch and optimum temperature is 85F or something similar. My 60F house wasn't conducive to starting the starter itself. So, I put it in the oven with the light on. No go, still too cold. So, I put it on a heating pad. Nope, not happening. I tried again, starting with the heating pad and got some bubbles but didn't really develop a good fermentation. My house is just too cold and my garage is a freezer. (grin)

So, my sourdough is going to have to wait until spring when I can get a good starter going from scratch.

Annie

Annie,

I just finished drying and flaking some very active starters and would bet my meager pension that will work in 60° temps. I don't have a lot, but can send a tsp or so of each. And I can & will dry more now that I have the drying down pat.

If you want... Click here to email me

jt

The placement of the starter on to of your fridge may help some. Even at 60 degrees, the starter should begin to work in about 24 hours. For it to develop properly at 60 degrees, you would need about 5 days. When You do make the starter by mixing the 50:50 flour and water, make the batch bigger, like about 2 cups water to 2 cups flour. Do n't add anything else to the mixture, but just set it in a bwl with a sheet of plastic wrap on top. Even for that, if the stove top is warm during the day, you may also get it to work. With a 60 degree room temp or below, the length of time needed to get it going/growing would take at least 2 days, but sometimes these will bubble only for a short time, and then continue to appear dorment, but are doing their deed under the surface. A smell after 5 days should tell you something. Even for that, to be extra sure, stir it some after the 5 days, add a little bit (1/2 cup) flour and let it work another two days. By then, you should have enough to save as well as bake a loaf or two. The drying and flaking seems to help preserve the culture far longer than just a blob of goop sitting in the fridge. If your successful in making a starter, spoon out a couple of tablespoons onto a sheet of plastic wrap and allow it to dry, then crumble, and place in plastic in the fridge.

Ken, my gas stove has an electronic ignitor, no pilot light, so there is no heat there. The top of my refrigerator sure doesn't get any warmer than that heating pad on low does, so I think it would be out, even if it weren't a built in with cupboards above it so I can't sit things on top.

My starter was 1 1/2 cups of water and 1 1/2 cups of rye flour (ostensibly the best or most reliable for starter), I let it sit for four days, then it spent day 5 in the oven with the light on and day 6 on the heating pad. Day 7 it just sat around while I decided what to do. Day 8 it got thrown away and I started round two. I don't want any starter that must use yeast or I'll just use the yeast (which I buy in two pound lots at Sam's Club anyway for my other breadbaking).

You should understand that I have successfully started sourdough starter before, at least a dozen times. One time was with some dried and frozen starter from a prior poster in Missouri. I've never had problems before so I can only assume it is the temperature of my kitchen.

Thank you for the kind offer John, but I'll just wait until spring and start some more when the weather gets a bit warmer. My kitchen has some big sunny south windows that have always been just perfect for starting sourdough. I guess I shouldn't have gotten disgusted and tossed last fall's batch out.

Annie

I don't believe there is a requirement that the sourdough starter remain in the dark. I started mine with wild yeast from organic rye flour in a cold Minnesota December by keeping it in the oven with the oven light on. Of course, it took almost 3 weeks to get a fully active, bubbly sponge and I think I used an entire bag of flour. But it was fun and I've never made bisquits as tender as those I make now with sourdough starter.

Wow, I'd like to hear more about those biscuits!

Incubator? Annie, do you have one?? The other option, if it fits, is inside a dehydrator set to a low temperature. Another, is a 25 watt light bulb inside a big box, that is covered. The inside will get warm enough to help it bubble. Keep in mind that if you do a rye starter, it may impart an odd flavor for regular white wheat flour breads. I usually like to keep mine always with white flour and if I want a rye sourdough, I just make a batch out of rye flour and some of my regular sourdough culture. None of mine are made with any store bought yeasts. I do like to use regular yeast in some breads though, especially sweet types. I found that Costco has two one pound bags which are easier to store, as you just use one and leave the other in the freezer. Finally just ran out of the bigger 2-3 pound bag I had, which lasted well over a year, and was starting to decline.

Ken, I just don't want it that badly. LOL I don't have an incubator. I do have a dehydrator, but it's stored in the basement.

The rye flavor is pretty distinct at first but by the time you use half of the starter, feed the other half, use half, feed the other half, repeat half a dozen times, the rye flavor is pretty much gone and is replaced by the "sour" flavor, much like the original sourdough yeasts are replaced with the local wild yeasts after several cycles.

Annie

Ken writes: > Another, is a 25 watt light bulb inside a big box, that is covered.

Excellent idea! My first tomato seed starting incubator was a tall heavy duty cardboard box with a string of Christmas tree lights in a tin pie pan on the bottom. Two wooden dowels poked through sides of box halfway up supported a shelf. 86° was the goal. I would remove or add bulbs to get the exact desired temperature. A later revision was a light fixture inside #10 can with cheapo dimmer switch wired in as a rheostat.

And hey, you could wear a bag full of starter around your neck or some place. :P

Where there is a will....

Sourdough starters were always found on the old chuck wagons out west.

"old chuck wagons out west" -

Yes Ken, and believe me, those old desert roads that the wagons rolled on, get plenty warm - especially in July and August !!

If you ever visit the Anza Borrego Desert, follow the old Butterfield stage coach trial - you can still hear the thundering hooves as Wells Fargo delivers the mail - and probably carried a lot of dried starters in the mail pouches as well.

In fact, that is probably how it finally wound up in San Francisco in the first place.

Just my 2 c's.

Bejay

The original SF sourdough starter quite possibly was started in Missouri, traveled the Oregon Trail and then to SF.

And my offer to share small amts of my cultures of "Carl's" and "Wild Missouri" is open to anyone until I run out. Both are very acidic and have a great sour smell. Still haven't actually baked anything with them.

The Wild continues to amaze me at how quickly it works. A few years back I would have had a web cam showing them side by side. Perhaps would take a snapshot at 30 min intervals. My old cam won't work with XP so maybe this summer. So much want to do and so little time. And way too much time spent at the computer. Addictive.

You know, I looked at a dried starter I had in the fridge which was mailed to me, and it was, in fact, Carls. I added a slight amount to my current batch of culture thats just starting to bubble since last night. I made it extra thick so I can dry some for a later use. My refrigerated starter was tan color with a very pronouced alcohol smell coming from the 'hooch' on top. It all got mixed into almost 3 cups of flour and about 2 cups of warm water, along with a small sprinkle of Carl's starter. I like to blend these, and get a bit saved from each batch, so that I have different stages and many strains of sourdough melded into one batch. I'll be making some french loaves soon, as a have a pan, that has a round bottom with fine perforations and two 'troughs' for baking two loaves. The pan is non stick and the loaves come out nicely browned even on the bottoms. For big bubbles in the bread, I add a small sprinkle of dried yeast with just a small amount of kneading afterwards (just to mix it in), and just prior to forming and final rising for baking.

"For big bubbles, etc."

Ah ha! So now it comes out. I wondered how they did that.

It pays to stay tuned to this forum, otherwise, ya could miss something.

Thanks Ken - (again).

Bejay

Gee, you want me to give all my secrets away all at once? . At least I didn't put a sticker on the bottle of Tarrigon and mark it basil, like Rays mother did to Debra. The recent rerun of Everybody Loves Raymond episode.

Ken, that's how I buy my yeast too, we don't have Costco, we have Sam's Club, same thing, pretty much. I don't bother to freeze one bag, though, I bake bread three or four times a week and use it before it gets old.

I really like King Arthur all purpose flour for bread and use a lot of that too. A poster at Cooking asked if she could keep part of a 20 pound bag of flour in the freezer so it didn't get bugs. I'd use it way before it got bugs!

Annie

About the only flour I store in the freezer is pasta flour. All the rest get used up fast. Whole wheat flour, however can go rancid if left out for too long, as can wheat germ. There are also some very effective sticky traps to catch those meal moths, and so if you catch the moths, they will not lay eggs and have no larve. If there are bugs in flour and you do use it, a person can get very sick from it. My grandfather had to throw away a lot of flour when I discovered bugs, which we found on one of visits there. In those days there were no effective traps for ridding of the moths. KA flour is a bit more expensive, but is high quality. Here, the Stop & Shop supermarkets sell KA flour, but do not sell any brand of flour thats marked for bread making. Odd, but I guess they feel making bread isn't very popular.. Same issue about not carrying frozen pineapple juice concentrate. I told their 'corp people' that they are losing money by not stocking these necessary items.

Ken,

The items stocked by Stop & Shop varies greatly from store to store. Some have an incredible selection, including things you would not expect to find, others have a very poor selection. I've seen both extremes. If you have more than one store within a reasonable distance from you, check them out.

The same is true of Shaw's.

Jim

Here, I usually get the unusual stuff from a local small supermarket. Shaws do have a few items that S&S doesn't, and vice versa. But when you expect common items in these supoer S&S stores, which are the biggest, you usually have problems finding them. There are several here, and one even has a sushi bar, while another has more than two isles of spanish and asian selections.

On another note, I had started a batch of culture using some saved sourdough mixture (container from the fridge), as well as adding some of my dried ones. The mixture didn't really start to bubble until this morning. It was started last Friday night and was placed on top of my fridge where the temps are usually about 71 or so. Yesterday, I spooned out a little to dry, but I think that because its actually rising in the bowl now, its now at a point where the yeasts are more active, so I will spoon out a little more to dry for later. The drying method, along with keeping a mix in a container in the fridge do help to keep it alive, and thriving, makes more sense than just one or the other.

Ken, maybe your Stop and Shop feel like Carol and I do, that bread making flour isn't necessary for making bread. I think it's mostly a marketing ploy, just like bread machine yeast. I use all purpose flour and bulk yeast for everything and never have a problem. That's one more reason I like the King Arthur all purpose, there's plenty of gluten for suitable bread baking.

I do buy smaller bags of rye, wheat and other whole grain flours so I can use them up before they get rancid.

Annie

I get some wheat gluten as a seperate product, and even add it to pasta doughs. Regular APF has a little less gluten, compared to bread flour. If you were making bagels that you want very chewy, you need the extra gluten, along with lots of kneading to get them to a state where they will be chewy. APF is OK to use, like for regular light breads, english muffins, and even some sweet doughs for coffee rolls, etc.

Tonight, my sourdough starter has 'exploded'. It blew through the top of the half full bowl and out of the plastic wrap. Its VERY active now and I had to stir it down and add some more flour to calm it down. Two hours later it was at the top of the bowl again. Now, its time to take out the cup or so and place that back in the fridge. I also took another small gob and spread it in a sheet of plastic wrap to dry. This time, my starter is very active!! So active, I don't think I will need to add any regular yeast to help it along. More on that tomorrow, when I will be making the french bread loaves. I must say, that having some dried, and stored is much easier to deal with than a jar of the starter. If I were using it every few days the jar would be the way to go, but for me, when baking bread less than maybe once a month, the dried option wil give me more of a reliable culture for the future of my sourdough.

I have been buying a high gluten flour - available in big bags - thinking it was the right thing.

Yesterday, I took the starter out of the fridge - when I opened the jar, it foamed out all over. It was surprising that it didn't explode in the fridge. Like Ken, I added some more flour water after taking out 2 cups for my recipe. Will check it more closely, it might be a big mess cleaning the fridge if it decides to "go."

I made pizza - 3rd attempt, and it went a bit easier. I think I'm getting the hang of spreading out the dough to a fixed size. The pizza sauce - canned this summer, could have been a little less runny, but OK. It was a juicy end product. Son's only adverse comment that it was a bit "too garlicy" - never thought I'd hear him say that. Must have gotten some really fresh garlic cloves (grown last summer).

Half of the dough went into cinnamon rolls. I forgot the raisins - and when I tried to cut the rolls into 1/2 inch slices or so - the cinnamon/sugar/butter had a tendency to ooze out. So the end product was more of a cinnamon roll/bagel type thing - a bit chewy, which I presume was the heavier gluten flour. But I had one for breakfast with some cream cheese, together with two fresh poached eggs and some of last year's spicy plum sauce (my cup runneth over).

Even the hens decided to start laying eggs again. They went through a molting period, and not knowing what to expect, I thought surely that was the end of the egg laying stages.

But then, their feathers came back - (kept thinking - what to do if they never lay again). Their combs became bright red but still no eggs. Something surely wrong. Then I found 8 or 9 eggs under the rabbit cage that they have been roosting in - way back in the corner. The little rascals - going broody on me.

So - for the moment, all's well - and thinking of making some spinach-stuffed shells with sauce for dinner.

Has anyone ever made spinach ravioli from scratch? How does the dough differ from what we have been doing so far?

Bejay

Ken, I suppose everyone has their own favorites. I just happen to agree with several of the bread making experts that think high gluten bread flour isn't necessary. If anything, the extra gluten would be helpful in a whole grain loaf with half whole grains and half white, something I do regularly because my heathen daughter doesn't like "peasant" breads. Ahem.

I use AP for all breadmaking, even those bagels I posted the picture of. Heck, people have been making bread for centuries without the help of "bread flour".

I will caution, however, that some AP flours are lower in protein and do not make good bread. I used some "cheap" store brand all purpose and was not impressed.

At the link attached, you will see that Gold Medal "bread flour" has a protein content of 13%-14%. Some national brands, like King Arthur, also have 13%, equivalent to the protein in "bread flour". So, by using appropriate brands of all purpose flour I can achieve the same results without paying the "premium" for bread flour.

Annie

Annie, you have pretty much answered your question. AP is different, when you compare brands. When they make these flour products, the more refining they do, the less some essential things get left in. I agree that rye and whole wheat do need a lot more gluten, unless you like a heavy gummy loaf. When I buy APF, its usually the cheap store brands, sometimes half the cost of the major brand names. Without a high gluten, my breads do not stay tall and may collapse during baking. The one I made today was with a little extra wheat gluten, along with a tablespoon of potato flour, and a teaspoon of diastatic malt (a form of sugar), as well as a little ascorbic acid. These ingredients are helpful in maintaining the freshness, moistness, and keeping qualities. Without them, my breads can go stale in a single day.

For a ravioli, I do recommend making the dough with a little extra gluten. If your using a crank type machine that is an attachment on most pasta rolling machines, then the dough must be tough enough to hold up to streching, and pressing while its being filled. Years ago, my first attempt at using the machine, made every single sheet of dough tear while being pressed into the familiar square shape. The next time I made them, the dough was made with an egg added, along with a small dash of olive oil, and extra gluten. The result was a much sturdier dough once it was rolled out to setting #5 on the machine. The dough was rolled out to nearly 6 foot long by 6 inches wide, folded in half, and the folded end was placed between the ravioli rollers, and the filling was added. As each two ravioli are formed, the dough gets sealed and cut, and pulls in more filling all at the same time. The filling was made with some ricotta cheese, with a little grated parm, and if you like, some cooked and finely chopped spinach that has been pressed out on some paper towels to remove as much moisure as possible. Season the filling to your taste. I like adding some garlic, usually dried, granulated (yes fresh is OK, but its going to add more moisture that you don't want). The other option is to roll out the dough, cut into 2-3 inch round circles, add a small mound of filling, and wipe the outer edges with a little water, and place another round disk of dough on top, and press together to squeeze out the air. Set these on a big sheet pan dusted with flour. When cooking, only simmer the boiling water. If its boiled too hard, they will blow apart.
Pizza crust can get quite soggy if the sauce is very wet. To help it stay a bit firm, spread a little olive oil on the crust prior to putting on the sauce and toppings. Provolone cheese also goes well with the regular mozzarella too. My favorites are sausage, pepperoni (my own), peppers, onions, and mushrooms.

So what you are saying Ken, is that you buy cheap flour, then buy some vital wheat gluten, or that you pay extra for bread flour that has the additional gluten.

Since the King Arthur is both cheaper than the combined cheap flour/vital wheat gluten and cheaper than the bread flour, I realize a cost savings by buying the King Arthur and using it in place of bread flour/VWG. Plus, I can use it for everything and not have to keep separate brands or varieties of flour stored, along with a container of vital wheat gluten. I seem to have a decided lack of storage space for my current goods, let alone adding an all purpose flour, a bread flour and a container of gluten!

If you don't bake all your own bread, as I do, you might not realize the savings but I use so much of it in my various breads, bagels, braids, rolls and crusts that it is cheaper for me. In addition, I find that the King Arthur makes better cookies and quick breads than the cheaper flour, although pastry and biscuits are better with a softer wheat which is lower in protein. Still passable, though, and not enough difference to make me buy still another "speciality" flour.

And that brings us back to the original statement that you "need" bread flour or that it is necessary for chewy bagels, etc. That is not true. Some all purpose brands work just as well but you need to be informed and know what those brands are and why they work.

Annie

KA flour here, is almost twice the price of the other name brands, even though I am a lot closer to VT than you are. Hogsten Mills has the highest prices of all. I rarely see much beyond the regular all purpose KA flour here anyway. I buy 5 pound bags of AP flour for under a buck at times. Gluten is a protein and when kneaded well into a dough, it makes the dough very stretchy. Bagels like those you see in the freezer section, and sold fresh on the bread shelves are not the same. They have a texture and taste more like a bagel shaped piece of soft bread. True bagels are very tough and chewy, with a crispy crusty outside, and after a single day become as hard as a big pretzel. That chewy texture doesn't come from just kneading AP flour in bread dough. I did a test today and along side my sourdough french bread, I made a plain loaf of regular yeast bread using AP flour (Gold Medal). The result was the sourdough french, that used bread flour, was far more 'authentic' in texture and size, compared to the one made with AP flour. They both rose and were baked at the same time and temp, and the AP flour bread collapsed a little during the middle of the baking cycle. I guess all of this is going to differ when you consider the likes of a specific texture, mouthfeel, chew, etc. Annie, you know I can never always agree with you on everything, and neither can you..

You're right, Ken, we can't always agree, but few people always agree anyway.

Here King Arthur All Purpose is $1.97 for 5 lbs. Gold Medal All Purpose (which I do not find as good for baking bread) is $1.92 for 5 lbs. A small box of vital wheat gluten is $3.89 and Gold Medal Flour for Bread is $3.79.

So, I can buy the King Arthur all purpose with exactly the same protein level as bread flour for $1.97 as opposed to $3.79, nearly two dollars cheaper. Even the Gold Medal all purpose is only 7 cents cheaper and I still have to buy the VWG. The "cheap" brand is something called "Our Family" (it used to be Spartan) and even on sale is $1.29 and I STILL would have to buy the VWG.

It's much cheaper here to buy the King Arthur AP which has the same protein content and the same performance as Bread Flour, nearly $2 cheaper and the final product is the same.

Annie

I buy the wheat gluten from the Ingredients Store at $2.11 per pound. Thats enough to make about 20+ loaves of bread. That 'Vital Wheat Gluten' Is way too expensive, so I use a supplier that sells it in larger size packages, compared to that little 4 ounce box. The Gold Medal AP flour was just $1.09 here recently. Yeast is another rip off, tjose tiny packets are about two bucks, when you can buy two 1 pound bags for about $3.00. Gold Medal bread flour here is about $2.00 to $2.50. But sometimes I get lucky and find bread flour at surplus stores like Big Lots, somewhat cheaper. KA AP flour is high quality anyway, so geting their AP type is probably OK to use for most regular breads if you want a light soft loaf. Soon, I plan to grind up some 12 grain mixture and use that in a high fiber bread. It needs to be as light as possible, with a high rise, and all the help it can get to keep it that way while it bakes.

Ken - about making ravioli - a lady I know (excellent Italian cook) usually rolls her dough out on a very large table top. It must be quite like pizza in that it stretches. Then it is sectioned off into squares and each square gets a spinach filling. I presume spinach, rocotta and Romano cheese perhaps.

Then another large layer of rolled out dough goes over the top, and a roller type thing is used to press the 2 sides of the dough together around the filling.

As I've never done it myself, I am at a loss as to the recipe for the dough, though I will assume it uses the more glutenous flour and perhaps olive oil, and worked up to a very elastic consistency.

It sounds like a lot of hard work but I remember eating them, and they were very delightful.

Any helpful hints - I have a good spinach crop this year, and now might be the best time to improve my pasta making skills.

Bejay

Bejay,

Pasta is much simpler to make than bread or pizza. It uses no leavening at all, just flour with something to moisten it, usually eggs and water.

Jim

That sounds like something I can use. Appreciate the website - made a save of it for later.

Some time ago, I bought one of Ron Popeil's pasta "mixers" and was a bit disappointed on my first try. Later there was an update on the recipe - but I haven't had a chance to work with it. The little machine sits on the shelf (as it has for 2 years or so). My family chides me because I buy things like this - and then never use them. (just another gadgeteer, I guess).

But now that I've more time - I think I will give it another try. It doesn't seem strong enough - to do much for a big load, but will start small. Have always heard that home made spaghetti is better - we shall see.

Much obliged.

Bejay

I once bought a plastic pasta extruder at a clearance sale. It was worthless. I now have one of the traditional type machines which runs the pasta between rollers and has other rollers for cutting to different widths. It's OK. But you don't need any special equipment. Roll the pasta thin with a rolling pin. Dust both sides well with flour so the pasta won't stick to itself and roll it into a log. Then cut slices off the log to make whatever width of pasta you want.

Jim

With the Atlas or Imperia machines, making ravioli is easy. For those, and most all other pasta, I pefer to use pasta flour made of the Semolina. This type of flour is almost like looking at fine corn meal, as its not really a powder like regular flour. The dough comes out a bit brigher yellow compared to regular flour. I do mix some regular flour with the semolina. Add only a teaspoon or two of olive oil to the dough. It seems to help reduce some sticking. Rolling out a big sheat is a bit of work, as you do need to have seperate work areas one for each side of the ravioli, or roll it up while making the second sheet. With a 6 inch wide sheet from a rolling machine that can be any length, its much easier to handle. All the air trapped between the layers and around the filling must be squeezed out. The only time I use a bit of wheat gluten mixed in is when I make the ravioli as they tend to tear easily if the dough inst strong enough and/or the filling is too wet. I add a bit of bread crumbs if the filling is too loose and wet. Also an egg or two to act as a binder in the filling. I do have a pasta making machine too, and is very similar to the Popiels, with forward and reverse motor switch. There, the dough just gets mixed and extruded out as a sheet (if you have the dies), or just a round rope/rod shape. I don't use that electric machine for rolling or forming the dough, unless I am making ziti or some tubular pastas with the appropriate dies that attach to the output. There is heat generated when the pasta is extruded out of the machine. Running the dough through the 6 inch wide rollers of a crank type machine helps to get an even thickness as well as works the gluten much more than just a rolling out as a sheet on a flat surface. Pasta doughs don't usually shrink much when rolled by the machines. The plastic extruders are not very good. I have one that has cast aluminium dies and a plastic insert to form the pockets for the ravs. The edges of each filled cavity is brushed with a little water, Then a sheet of dough is placed on top and rolled out to cut and seal each. I used it a couple of times, but it makes small ravs, compared to the former/cutter that attaches to the crank rolling machine. Some time ago, I even ground out more of the cast alkuminium cavities in the roller side, to make them a bit deeper, and so they hold a little more. I used a Dremel tool to do this, and it has not affected the operation or formation of the ravs. One invaluable tool is a small hand help rolling tool that has two kinds of rollers at the ends. One end is about 5 inches wide, while the other end has a shorer length roller with a middle thats bigger in diamtere compared to the ends. I used this curved end to put the 'ruffle' in the edges of lasagne. As mentioned, no leveing or yeast is used in pasta doughs. It could be made by just flour and water, but holds up better once cooked if it also has some eggs in it. I used the crank rolling machine to also make long sheets of pasta that were originally the 5 inch egg roll wrappers that you buy in packages t the supermarket. Once I cut out the round disks to make peking ravioli, I needed to make use of the waste lost around the edges. These pieces were run through the rollers several times at various thicknesses until they were the same thickness as the small sheets that come packaged. I can form a prety good looking Peking ravioli stuffed with ground and seasoned pork.

Last night, I started another batch of sourdough for making some french loaves. I was amazed at the almost instant activity in the starter. Early this morning it oozed out of the plastic wrap that covered the bowl, twice! This time, I mixed up some whole wheat bread flour and added that to the starter instead of just white flour. They do recommend adding whole wheat every few 'generations' when keeping sourdough. This morning, the kitchen was smelling like the sourdough bread. I plan to take out the cup (and store in in the fridge) for next time, and use the rest to make some bread in a couple of days. This time, the finished sourdough will be placed in the fridge for a couple of days prior to its final rising and baking the bread. Also, I now have some dried starter (as small flakes) stored in plastic in the fridge, so if anyone wants some, let me know..

> They do recommend adding whole wheat every few 'generations' when keeping sourdough.

Ken,

Thanks for the reminder! I had forgotten that. Went out this morning and bought some whole wheat flour. Didn't have any choice but to get Pillsbury Best. Not a big whole wheat fan. Does the flour keep well?

JohnT

Whole wheat flour will not have the long shelf life of white flour. It can go rancid, but if its bagged and kept in the fridge (over 3 months), it should keep well. I bought some 5 pound yellow bags of what I originally thought was plain bread flour at Big Lots. I failed to notice it was "whole wheat" bread flour, and so, thats what I used in my starter. The starter is now in the fridge after almost two days of really active bubbling I removed of a cup to save for next time, and added another cup of flour and more water to increase its size for the two french loaves I plan to make soon. As also mentioned, I now have some dry starter flakes stored in the fridge, which can be used at any time. I mixed all my old dried starters together, so I would have a decent blend of flavors from all the many generations I had. Anyone who would like some, let me know. Some starters dated back over 20 years ago, while my grandfathers original starter was also mixed in a while back. I use this special baking pan with tiny perforated holes in the bottom with curved bottom and sides of the pan. Its ends are open and if you look at it from an end, it looks like a big 'W' with round bottoms for the round shape of the bread. Because of the holes, it bakes and browns up nicely even on the bottom. If you ever use wheat germ, be sure to refrigerate it as it can also go rancid quickly. Its something to do with the natural oils in the bran and germ of the wheat.

Just saw a great deal for a 2 pound capacity Cuisinart bread maker. Its convection type baking and has many settings for different kinds of breads with different ingredients. They also had a decent price for a combo slicer, food processor and blender by the same maker.

I have a question about whole wheat flour. I grind my own whole wheat flour at home, but I know that it can go rancid. If you use 100% whole wheat flour to make a sourdough start and try to use it for many years can it ever go rancid?

No, usually the starter has fermented items in it, as you can usually smell booze after a few weeks of storage in the fridge. To help prevent any major loses like mold or possible contamination beyond the normal, you can spread thin layer of the starter on a sheet of plastic wrap, and allow it to dry a couple of days. Once dried, it can be peeled off and crumbled and then wrapped in plastic, then in a zipper bag, then stored in the fridge for up to about a year, or in the freezer, forever. The dried seems to be more active when mixed with some starter thats stored in the fridge as a thick paste. Whole wheat flour is usually what is recommended for making and feeding a starter. I like to alternatly add white, then whole wheat each time I expand my starter for the bread I make. Also, I make a big batch of starter, and use most in a bread dough, while still giving back about a cup to the ongoing starter culture thats stored. Here, I have both a paste and dried cultures, and when I dry a batch, these are also not mixed together so if I experience any problems, its only going to affect that single dried batch. I even use rye flour, but there, the starter must be made seperate so no rye gets into the regular ones. Thats where the dried ones work best as they are just like adding yeast to flour, if you consider the ease at which it can be mixed.

Creating Sourdough starter is so new to me, but something I really want to do! I've got a lot of reading to do. I found videos on how to make a starter on-line, but I have some questions that the videos don't answer. Hopefully I'll find them here! I can't wait to get started!

If you want a good starter culture, King Arthur Flour has it. They tell you to make an expanded starter by adding flour and water to theirs. But don't mention that you can spoon out a 1/2 to 1 cup of it and store in the fridge. If I don't use mine aftyer many months, it can get quite boozy smelling. Sometimes that can kill off the wild yeast. As mentioned previously, I also spread some out of a sheet of plastic wrap and allow it to dry. Crumble it and put in a small bag in the fridge or freezer. I do this every time I make a batch. Mix the dried ones together, and start a fresh one from that. Its an endless way to keep it going. Always set up one with rye flour mixed with wheat flour, and seperate from all wheat flour cultures.

It was fun reading through these oldies - but goodies. I can now make a fairly decent loaf of sourdough bread - but it wasn't easy - lots of trial and error. Thanks to Ken and all the folks here, my bread finally gets my family's "thumbs-up" - although it took some doing.

I would add one bit of information though. I have a bread book that I recommend to beginners. It is "The Cornell Bread Book" by Clive M. McCay and Jeanette B. McCay. I happened to see it advertised - while surfing the net, and found several copies on - I think - Amazon or? - but very inexpensive.

It has lots of recipe for all kinds of different breads, rolls, using whole wheat, rye and other flours. It was very helpful for me. It does advise making sourdough cultures each time you bake, which I do not do, preferring to have my culture made up and stored in the fridge.

As Ken mentioned, it is made ahead of time. I remove 1-1/2 cups for each baking, feed it until it starts to activate. then proceed with the recipe. The remaining starter - kept in a quart jar, then needs to be replenished with water and flour to build back the starter for the next batch. While in the fridge it may develop a dark watery upper layer (hooch - or is it hootch?). This is just stirred a bit before the next use before adding more flour at next baking session.

It was a lot of fun - and I try to keep a loaf on hand now. It is great - especially with spaghetti. I like to slice rather thick, sprinkle Roman cheese on top and pop in the toaster oven till browned. Great with soups too.

Just my 2 c's.

I think - for beginners, they would like "The Cornell Bread Book" - my MIL gave me my copy - it was revised in 1973. You might find one in the library also.

Bejay

If anyone in this thread is still out there. I have a question. My Grammie made sourdough rye frim starter in a wooden bucket. The wood of the bucket kept the sour alive.The bucket was lost / broken ? and never replaced Grammie died many years ago. Does anyone have any information about this old method?