Brian:

Three years ago I planted 100 of these hybrids that I got from the Missouri State nursery. On one of the three sites where I planted them, they have done well, and after this third growing season, they are 60 or 70 inches tall. On the other three sites they have not done so well. On one site, deer got to them and nibbled them badly. They have started to recover, but slowly.

They are fully cold hardy here.

I read one report about an experimental planting in NJ, and the results showed that although these hybrids are fast starters, that after something like 15 years, they were beaten by both regular pitch pines and loblollies, so if you are looking for long-term fast growth, these may not be the answer.

The last two years I have been planting loblollies. Last year I got seedlings from the Virginia State nursery, and this year I got seedlings from the Tennessee State nursery. In both cases I got "improved" seedlings, labeled, in each case, "third cycle."

The seedlings I got from VA last year suffered from the unusually harsh winter, and most of them lost most of their foliage. But they recovered very well in spite of the dry summer, and have very much outperformed the hybrids. After two growing seasons they average about 50 inches tall. The hybrids after two years were about 38 inches tall.

I tried the Tennessee seedlings this year, thinking that because they are from a more inland source, they might be more hardy. Research on the various strains of loblolly pines suggests that this may not a bad idea. We had a terrible freeze after I planted them this spring, and most lost all their green needles, but they recovered and have grown very well. They were 1-year seedlings about 6 inches tall, but even with the early damage, many are now 22 to 30 inches tall. I will see how they do over the winter. If they are not badly damaged, I expect them to outperform the VA seedlings.

Loblollies are fully hardy here after they get established, but young seedlings may be vulnerable for a year or two.

I water my seedlings in this very dry climate here, so that has improved my results. We often go 20 or 30 days with No rain here, so unless I want to waste my planting efforts, I have to water.

If you want a fast growing pine grove, white pines are a very good choice, of course. But if you want to try something different, and like loblollies--I do--I would recommend that you try the 3rd cycle (or better) improved seedlings from Tennessee.

Oh, my hybrids, and to a lesser extent, my loblollies, have been retarded by some kind of moth larvae that attack the buds--a "pine tip" moth or "pine shoot tip" moth. I am not sure just which variety is attacking my seedlings. But after attacks, both are able re-establish a leader and continue growing. I also have problems with sawflies, which can defoliate and kill 2 and 3-year seedlings

--spruce

Fastest pine I've planted. After 9 seasons the trunk is 6" dia at the ground. Already has a few interesting cones down low. A handsome pine IMO, but which ones aren't?

Spruce (nice to see you back) -- same thing here w/my hybrid. Some yrs ago a tip-borer or stem weevil kept killing the top sprout repeatedly, so it's height has suffered a bit -- only 20 ft tall or so. Seems like the buggers are gone now & a side branch has assumed the central leader. Like you too, an occasional outbreak of nasty-looking sawfly larvae (none this yr except the usual ones on dogwoods).

Spruce, I'm sure you've seen that very big loblolly pine at the VA State Arb? Kind of hiding among other big trees just east of the main buildings. Saw some longleaf and Table Mnt pines in another area, too.

Beng:

I remember your post about that bud damage. I later tried to find it to respond, but I couldn't.

There are a lot of loblollies at the VA Arboretum. There are several east of the buildings that are fairly large. But there is one large and much older one in a completely different section. If you take the road that goes back towards the woodland section--under the double row of mostly cedar trees--and then turn left where the main road turns right to the woodland, and go for a ways past where they have the chestnut experimental plantations, you will find a much older loblolly on the left. Next to it is a much smaller one which is dying. The larger one looks healthy, but it must be well over 100 years old, and may be 30 inches in diameter.

It seems that loblollies will do quite well a fair ways north of their native range. I think they are generally restricted to further south because they can't reproduce where it is too cold, and seedlings are vulnerable to freezing.

One interesting fact I learned about loblollies is that they do not have any period of "true" dormancy in winter. If, during winter, soil temps rise to 50 degrees, they will have root growth. This lack of a dormant period may be why the seedlings are so vulnerable in winter, but when the trees are larger, and the roots deeper, they can survive very well in this part of VA, which is a part of Z6 near Z7. This last cold winter did not bother in any way the established loblollies around here. There are several moderately large ones half a mile away. I am in the extreme northern part of VA, far inland, west of the Blue Ridge. I would guess that loblollies could do fairly well somewhat further north. Maybe some heavy mulch could help with winter survival for the first couple of years.

Loblollies are wonderful trees, and are much underrated for their beauty. In their prime areas they can grow to about 175 feet tall. There are some groves of them near Dulles Airport, along route 28, between route 7 and route 50. I first saw these groves 45 years ago, and thought little of them. But now they are "grown up," and are gorgeous. These are a hundred miles or so north of their natural range, but it doesn't seem to matter. It is strange that they have, so far, not been cut.

--spruce

Thanks for all the information. That was just what I was looking for. People on the web seem to really rave about the pitch x loblolly hybrid pines fast speed and their increased cold hardiness; so I figured they would work a lot better in my area than the loblolly. I've heard and read a lot of conflicting things about loblolly cold hardiness outside their native range. After failing to establish seedlings I dug up in Delaware several times, I just assumed it was the case that they weren't very cold hardy.

The NJ Forestry Service also has Loblolly Pine. I'll probably order some next spring and try them out. Once I get some established enough they will probably make it through the winters. I noticed the same thing with my Cunninghamias. The bigger ones all did much better during the winter with the larger root systems. I have one Cunninghamia that is a little over 5 feet and there was almost zero damage from this past winter. Many of the Cunninghamia that were 1-2 feet ended up dying back quite a bit during the winter, but they all started to re-sprout in the spring. The large Cunninghamias actually did better than a lot of my 5-6 ft. Cryptomerias which are supposed to be good in Zone 6, while the Cunninghamia are supposedly good to Zone 7. Go figure!

Brian:

Here is some specific advice about how to get loblollies established in your (and my) area, where the winters can be tough. The idea is to get the seedlings as strong a start as possible--the more they grow, and the deeper the roots get the first year, the better the chances for survival, and, or course, a faster start. Of course, what you do, or can do, depends on how many you will be planting, and how much time you have, or are willing to devote to them. What I am recommending I am doing, but have not always done. But I have seen much better results when I have done what I am recommending.

First, loblolly seedlings are a bit more fragile than, say, white pine. They must be protected from freezing before planting, and must be planted fairly quickly, unless you know how to store them. I could explain how to do that, if you need that info at some point.

Next, when you plant them, plant them deep. Unlike just about everything else, loblolly pines should be planted a bit deeper than they were grown in the nursery. You can Google this topic ("deep planting loblolly") and get the full story. Some recommend planting them "at least two inches deeper than grown at the nursery," but others say plant them all the way up to the terminal bud. The point is to get the roots as deep as possible to get adequate moisture during the first year. I don't plant mine so deep because I water regularly.

Next, if you plan to water--strongly recommended--plant them in a depression--a little bowl-like depression at least two or three inches lower then all the surrounding soil. This way, when you water, you can water quickly and not have the water run away. Building a little berm is not nearly so effective.

Then "water-in" each tree at the time of planting to get the soil to settle around the roots. Do this even if the soil is already wet. Then mulch.

Then through the growing season--all through it into October--make sure they have adequate moisture. An inch a week is a good guide. I give mine a gallon every six days. If it rains an inch, I skip that watering.

Some people have told me not to water--that if I do, it will prevent the trees from developing drought resistance. Well, I say two things to that. First, a dead seedling can't resist drought, and second, the faster they grow, the deeper the roots, and therefore the more drought resistance. If there is any value in having the trees go through dry periods without water, there is plenty of time for that the second year, after they are established with deep roots.

The best 40% or so of my first-year seedlings, planted when they average 6 inches, are 22 to 32 inches tall after the first year, and ready to resist a cold winter. The next year I don't water them--unless there is a very bad drought--and they grow another 2.5 feet--or more.

Critter damage? I have a big problem with this, and I put little fences around as many as I can, especially those near rabbit and groundhog holes. If a loblolly seedling is bitten off at the base in spring, it may well re-sprout, and recover well enough to be a nice seedling by fall, so don't give up on a bitten off seedling. Some, however, don't re-sprout. If the top is cut off, and left laying there, it's a rabbit.

I also spray with repellent. I use "Repels-all," but it is not 100% effective. Most of the deer browsing of pines occurs during winter.

Later I fence as many as I can to protect from buck rubbing. But mainly I leave them growing among weeds where bucks generally ignore them.

Well, good luck. If you have any questions, post here, or send me an e-mail.

--spruce

Thanks for all the information Spruceman. Have you had a lot of problems with branch breakage during heavy ice and snow storms? People have told me they don't do well with heavy snow & ice.

I've read you want loblolly from more northerly sources if you want them to do well with ice and snow; so the most northerly source possible is New Jersey. However, their loblolly aren't improved; so I'm not going to see as fast growth to get the roots deep before winter. I'll take your advice and get some of the Tennessee 3rd cycle loblolly in the spring.

BTW Spruceman, have you any experience with Abies firma - Japanese Fir? How are they in the winter? I always read about them being grown in the South, but not much about them growing in more northerly areas. I have 15 of them that I bought this year. They did great over the summer in full sun and drought most of summer. I've grown Korean fir and Canaan fir and they do okay, but they don't seem as tough as nails like the A. firma. They seem like they would be more deer resistant with those sharp, double pointed needles, but the deer even chew on my cunninghamia in the winter. If they will chew on that with those dagger like needles then they will chew on anything. I'm a bit worried about this winter and early spring damage with the A. firma. I read different sites and get all different minimum zone listings. I've also read they tend to bud early and are more prone to damage from late spring freeze. Any other fir trees you like for our area?

Limited experience (9 seasons) w/my hybrid pine seems to show good resistance to ice & snow. Loblolly shows reasonable resistance, not so much w/longleaf & pond pines.

My friend in zone 5b Illinois has an approximate 10 meter pitchxlobolly.

Pinus rigitaeda: Menard County, IL.

Pinus rigitaeda: Menard County, IL.

Dax

That's a gorgeous pine.

Beautiful tree! How many years did it take for the pitch X loblolly pine to get 10 meters?

pl. 1983

I'm guessing its size. I'll be seeing it again this Saturday and will get a better estimate.

Dax

Here's my largest largest example: 11" dbh and slightly over 40' @ 17 years. I planted 2 rows of 15 into very hard red clay hard pan. Seedlings came from East Tennessee Nursery in Delano, Tennessee. At that time the seed of this hybrid were being produced in a South Korean seed orchard as it was extensively planted there.

Johnny

Brian and folks:

As for my idea about the seedlings from Tennessee: my thought is that Tennessee is far inland, west of the mountains, and often gets substantial cold spells. Loblolly is native to the southernmost part of the state only, so the strain that grows there is right on the northern inland borderline for the species. I am west of the Blue Ridge here, so....

The Virginia strain, which has done well for me so far, is a strain derived from the areas near the coast. But, even though my Virginia seedlings grew well the first year, they did suffer extremely during the cold winter here, and most needles were brown. But then they recovered very well and most made good growth--better, in spite of the needle browning, than my pitlollies. I had two that lost all traces of green. I thought both were dead, but no--they survived and grew, although somewhat poorly. I will see how my Virginia strain improved seedlings do this winter and next year.

I got third cycle, but VA has three strains that are faster growing, including one that is 60% more productive than regular seedlings. I think my "third cycle" is 35% better. The top grades sell out before I get my order in.

Anyway, I should be clear--I would not recommend straight loblolly pine for anywhere in Z5. My idea is just that the straight loblolly may do very well in areas of Z6 not too far out of the natural range of loblolly pine.

Also, pitlolly hybrids may do better in a broader variety of soils. I would never plant loblolly pines in relatively poor soils, including those that are heavy clay--although a good clay content in a soil is good. But a real clay soil, as such, won’t work. Nor will a light textured gravelly soil that is very well-drained. Best for loblolly are deep soils with good moisture, and a thick A soil horizon. I would also not plant loblolly on a steep slope, unless the soil was very good.

As for snow and ice breakage: My in-laws had their loblollies removed--I actually did the dirty deed--because they were upset every time a limb broke. I thought the breakage minimal, and not a problem, but different people have different feelings about such things. Right across the road a group of loblollies was growing that had some occasional breakage, but the trees are beautiful nevertheless.

White pines, especially trees of certain genetic strains, have breakage also, and it is sometimes worse. Our neighbors here had a nice white pine growing in their front lawn, and all the limbs were stripped off in a series of storms. I have never seen that happen to a loblolly around here. But generally the flexibility of white pine limbs allows them to shed snow reasonably well.

How does loblolly’s susceptibility to breakage compare to pitlolly’s? I don’t know. I would not be surprised if the pitlolly is a bit better in this regard, but from what I have seen, the breakage of loblolly is not an issue for me anyway.

Johnny: I read one article where the forest researcher said that just as the strain of loblolly is very important for performance in different areas, so,he thinks, the same should be true of pitlolly. He said he thought not enough attention has been paid to using the best strains for pitlolly crosses. If the proper research is done, he feels that the performance of pitlolly hybrids could be much better than what has been seen so far. Perhaps you have got a very good hybrid with the best parent trees.

I had one in Minnesota in my garden in St. Paul. It grew fast, had some needle burn some years. I don't know if it's still there, but it went through about 3 winters when I was there.

Brian:

Sorry I neglected to answer your question about fir trees. No, I have not tried Abies firma. They have some fairly large ones at the National Arboretum, but they didn't seem that attractive to me.

The best fir for where I am is holophylla. There are two very, very nice and very large and tall ones at the VA Arboretum, and I have planted four at my place. They are starting out very well. I have 10 other firs growing. Of those, maybe the next best, so far, is silicica. Then nordmann, and Bulgarian fir, A. bournmulleriana. I had high hopes for numidica after seeing a nice one at the Nat Arboertum, but mine are not doing very well. Maybe they are just very slow starters. I have Korean, and it is so,so. Nothing noteworthy to report on the others. All of those I have mentioned are seedlings--no rootstock.

--spruce

Spruceman,
Thanks for all the great information. I appreciate all the advice. You should probably change your name from Spruceman to Loblollyman. :-)

Curious, but does anyone know a good place to order hybrid conifers online, especially southern pine crosses?

I've seen scientific journals and books mention all sorts of crosses between different pine. shortleaf X loblolly, pitch X pond pine, etc. I think a lot of these hybrids could be useful in tough growing conditions or when you are out of the natural range. I have some rather swampy parts in my yard that I thought a pitch X pond would do well in. I'm out of the pond pine's natural range and I thought the cross would do well. Right now I only have bald cypress and eastern larch in those spots. It would be nice to have an evergreen in those areas. The problem is I read about all of these hybrids, but I can't seem to find them anywhere. The only hybrid I commonly see are the pitch X loblolly hybrids. Where are these other hybrids hiding?

Brian:

It would be nice, for tree lovers like us, to be able to get a variety of hybrid pines, but the problem is that there is no market for them that would re-pay the investment of setting up production. The one that may, at some point, be available, is loblolly X shortleaf. The idea behind this one is to develop a tree resistant to fusiform rust, which in some areas is a big problem with southern pines, including loblolly. I am not sure if there are others that will have a commercial market worth exploiting.

Another factor is that there are regular pines that are very nice. One thing holding back pitlolly is eastern white pine, which is a flat out gorgeous tree, and which is very productive. It's wood, however is inferior to the southern pines, but it does find a ready market. If I didn't already have knock-dead gorgeous white pine groves, seeming to tower to heaven, at my timberland in far western MD, I might not be "messing" with loblolly, and pitlolly, so much. Northern growers also have red pine--not my favorite pine tree, but productive.

The only genus that I know of where there is a great tree fancier's interest in hybrids, is the oaks. You can find all kinds of hybrids there, and I have been sampling some.

But here's an idea: if there is something you really, really want--maybe the pitch X pond, you may be able to do a search and find out who, and at what university, has worked with it, and then give that person a call. He night be able to tell you if your idea is a good one, and-- you never know--someone might be willing to send you something.

--spruce

Beng, Gardener, anyone else, Have you been able to determine if the pitlolly is self pruning?

I'm sorry Randall... I'm not catching on.

Dax

Does it keep it's lower branches alive like pitch or do they die like loblolly.

I don't know the answer. I'm sorry.

Pines in the open without space constrictions will be full. When they're jammed into a landscape or for windbreaks, they definitely shed their lower branches & they eventually are pretty scraggly all-together.

Best I can say, Randall.

Dax

My experience w/mine as that it does hold onto lower branches longer than my loblolly, but eventually the very lowest get shaded & I've cut those off. But it still has branches below eye-level:

Thanks