When in doubt I go to the oan website and do a product search there.

Idaho has some promising stuff from their foresty research through the U.

Lawyer Nursery, hq in MT.

Would the WI or MN state assoc. have any kind of searchable directory database of members?

Thnks Strob. What's OAN?

I can re-check U of I and Lawyer, although I'm pretty sure neither carries this tree. I'll double check again though!

+oM

Oregon association of nurserymen

Lawyer Nursery carries it sometimes, because that is where I got mine from, though deer took care of that.

They don't list it at present, nor any other time I've checked, for that matter.

Barring the unexpected occurrence that I do find some hybrid larch seedlings in time for next spring, I'll probably go back to what was my original Plan B; Plant just the pine and spruce and if and when I can get the larch, plant them on the remaining acreage later.

I've done a LOT of looking already. I do not believe that any other grower offers this tree in quantity. Obviously, I've got some time yet to keep searching. But I doubt I'll find them.

+oM

Northern minnesota nurseries, floodwood, mn

You should be aware of the conundrum of nursery availability...it's aug of 2012 and people are are already selling from spring 2013 availability. And trying what will sell quickly when you have such narrow preferences...yikes.

Whenever I get stuck, I call shemin and let them find it for me. More expensive, but I don't have to chase leads across the country and get to pick it up sorta local.

Then when I get bored I look for the winter convention schedules and go through the exhibitor listings. Farwest, minnesota, louisville (ky, tn) chicago (wi, il). I'd probaby also check the northern tier states from maine to idaho, cuz ya never know.

If you have to wait til fall 13, I don't think that would present a problem from itasca...though to be honest, I don't know and my exerience with fall planting conifers in west central mn tells me to do it in the spring. Bareroot has a ways failed in fall planting, container or b&b has been successful only with extra precautions...plenty of water through establishment and extra mulch. I know itasca is plugs...but that far north is world where conventional wisdom is best listened to from locals, not nimrods online.

My hybrid Larch has quite a few cones (& presumably seeds). But the pollinator is a nearby Japanese larch, so they're prb'ly not what you want.

Yes, I was going to mention these would be plugs from itasca. Given I have options, I'll probably not elect to go with fall planting. Beyond that, I'm not sure what you're trying to tell me there, strob. It would seem only due diligence to do as I've done and get word in extra early-anticipating from previous communiques with this grower that there may well be a problem. Are you saying the situation will change between now and next spring? I've been assured it will not.

+oM

Tom:

One option--maybe--would be to try some Japanese and/or European larch. Musser has the Japanese in quantity, and I would guess the European is not hard to find.

My experience is that the hybrid may be the best, but not necessarily so. In NY at the SUNY Syracuse experimental forest I saw the Japanese growing. All I can say is WOW! And in Western MD I have seen some mature Europeam, and my comment is the same--WOW!!

But, at least with European, seed source may be crucial. My Europeans at my timberland have done so-so. While the mature ones just a few miles away are eye-popping. Dr. John Genys, formerly of the U of MD did a provenance trial on European larch and found drasmatic differences based on seed source.

And, as for seed source, it may come into play even with the hybrids.

My Japanese at my timberland have done wonderful.

Here in VA where it is hot and dry, both the hybrid and the European have done well. Of my two tallest, one is hybrid, the other a European. I planted some Japanese this year and expect them to do well also. At the VA Arboretum close to me here, they have all three, and there is not much to choose betyween them, although the one best tree happens to be a hybrid.

Anyway, you can start with some Japanese and European to get started, and next year plant more and maybe mix them.

Will you plant all the trees yourself? And keep them weeded? Big job. Good luck!

--spruce

Collecting seeds and grow your own is something to consider, allot more gratifying then getting plants, ..this is what I've done and got a nice little forest.

Hi Spruce. I should provide some background; This planting will be the single biggest one on my land. As such, it matters greatly to me that I have what I really want, and that is def. the hybrid version. I have planted several hundred of these there already and their performance is simply outstanding. All of these came from itasca so I know their stock is of a suitable type for the conditions there, at least to the extent that they in turn are able to standardize their seed source, which may or may not be the case.

I have read MUCH research work with larch in the western Great Lakes region. Among the themes I see repeated is that straight Jap. larch frequently suffers from late frost damage. I do see good things written about with certain provenances of European larch. Those from somewhere in Poland, as well as Sudetenland in Germany earn good marks, as well as some others. So yes, seed source for those is also critical.

Barring a surprise find, I'm already nearly certain that I will plant no larch next spring. I would very much like to obtain these from itasca and if that means waiting a year, so be it. After this initial six acres is planted, there will still be room for a substantial number of larch to go in later, and that's pretty much what I see happening. Perhaps as much as four acres worth. By leaving open strips and sections in the coming year's planting, i will be able to achieve the effect I'm after, one of alternating bands of each of the big three species

Another equally exciting component of all of this is the hope and expectation that pre-existing species there-white pine, N. white cedar, paper birch, and some others will be able to move into this area from the woods, once it has been "captured" for forestry purposes. All three of those I mention are vigorous and abundant in the woods there. There's also lots of balsam poplar which, while I'm not nuts about it, does smell good and also will aid in this capture effect, colonizing land rapidly now that the farmer's plow will not interfere!

+oM

If you want verified F1 Hybrid Larch, it means getting European Larch pollen and putting it on Japanese Larch conelets and vice-versa; that'll be very expensive.

Seed from open-pollinated mixed stands of E and J will give up to ~50% hybrid seedlings, mixed with pure seedlings of both parents. That would be OK for forestry use where slower-growing plants will get thinned out in the future.

Seed from existing hybrid trees, i.e., second generation (F2) plants, won't show hybrid vigour, and will show a whole mix of characters varying between the two parents. It may well be that some peoples' poor experiences with growing Hybrid Larch result from buying F2 plants that hadn't been declared as such.

Resin

Tom:

As for the hybrid vigor issue with larch--I may be a bit of a skeptic. When I toured the experimental forest at SUNY Syracuse I saw some young Japanese larch. Their growth rate was simply astonishing--I did not actually take out a tape measure and get an accurate measurement, but I would guess they were doing over 4 feet per year as young saplings. I saw some older ones mixed in with Norway spruce, and they were 30 or 40% taller. "Franken Monster" trees!

As for frost damage, which kinds of larch specifically? Where I have my larch planted in the mountains of western MD, we get late frosts. In fact one year we had a frost on the third of July--yes, actually on the third of July, no lie! The first emerging leaves, the so called "spur" leaves, are very freeze resistant--I have seen them withstand as low as 18 degrees. The growth shoots which emerge later, are freeze sensitive, but not very frost sensitive. I saw some mild damage one year. I am not sure just how low the temperature that night got, but the effect on growth that year was not noticeable.

But, I can understand that where you are in Wisconsin is very different from where my timberland is, and also different from the experimental forest at SUNY Syracuse.

But, you could just try 25 or so of some different larch and SEE how they do. You might be surprised! I like to try things, even when people tell me not to. In fact, I was told by my project forester not to plant larch on my timberland in the MD mountains because they would be ruined by sawfly larvae. Well, one year I had an attack--some trees were crawling with them. But the damage was slight, and I never saw another significant attack. My Japanese larch are now about 60 feet tall after 23 years!

Well, I am not an argumentative person, but I do want to make sure I have really described my experience. I just want to help!

--spruce

Tom and others:

I see that I don't have to go through photobucket to post pictures anymore. With my slow connection, that took a lot of time, but now it's so easy. So, more pics from me will be coming.

Here is one of a group of Japanese larch at my timberland. I took this picture three years ago, so they are a bit taller now. They are gorgeous in the fall, and this picture doesn't really capture the best color.

--spruce

Good stuff Spruce. Of course I dabble in a little of this and that. I've even got a few Green Giants there amidst the very center of my states N. white cedar belt. So yes, I'm always trying a few different plants. But that really has nothing to do with this project-to plant 6 acres with the help of a DNR grant which will extend from now through Feb. of 2014. This entire query is based on that.

As far as hybrid vigor and so on, there's regular tamaracks up there that occasionally put on some amazing growth. Larch just tend to be fast growers. I'm not doing a study or anything, I simply started out with the hybrid larch offered by itascagreenhouse.com, had great success and really enjoy the trees, and wish to plant more of them.

The stuff I read about late frost and Jap larch was, I think, from USFS papers detailing research in the nearby Nicolet National Forest here in WI. Near to where my land is, I mean. I've read a lot of stuff. I can't really remember what all was where and so on. I just recall seeing repeated mentions of straight Jap larch getting pretty frequent damage from late frost. That's enough to tell me that's not where I should place this, my main effort.

+oM

Tom:

Yes, you should definately go with the ones that are proven. A one year wait is not really a problem. I assume you have an advance order in. And, another downside of the Japanese is they are subject to breakage if an early snow hits them. That is not so much of a problem with European, and, I would guess, the hybrid.

--spruce

Sorry if I came across a little short-tempered there Spruce. Definitely sleep-deprived, having stayed up ALL night watching meteors and whatnot in the northern Wisconsin darkness. I'll be better by tomorrow!

I am waiting for a reply from itasca as to their best guess on whether or not they would be able to offer the number of larch seedlings I want in spring 2014. So far, nobody really seems to like a fall planting of seedlings. Technically, these are plugs, but I wonder if there's really much difference. Unless I hear a strong endorsement of fall planting, I will wait for spring.

Now for the final bit-I really like the European larch I've seen and planted. Should it just become impossible to source these hybrids, a development that is not out of the question, then I will happily go with the Euros. At that point, this would be my best option.

One thing I believe I've got in my favor with whatever larch I end up planting is that the soil in that field is quite deep. It's good enough to have been farmed after all. That area's a real hodge-podge of decent loamy stuff, sand and gravel, and everything in between. Glaciers really did a number up there. But I think I've got the good stuff.

Appreciate all the interest..........+oM

Tom:

It never occurred to me that you were short tempered. But I know I sometimes give unsolicited advice, and want to make sure I don't offend.

Anyway, I didn't know you were going with fall planting. I believe in your area you couldn't do that with evergreen conifers, but larch may be different. Just go with what your forester thinks is best.

If for some reason you can't get the hybrid, you could also consider a mixture of Japanese and European, and just plant a part of the area you have planned. My guess--and it is a guess, and it depends on seed source--that the Japanese will outgrow the European where you are.

How are your Norway spruce doing? And the larch that survived the storm last fall?

The spruce in my long double screen had good growth this year, and in two or three years I will be able to remove the last of the protection cages and mow around them. When I do that, I will post more pictures. The replacements I got, that were from a Romanian seed source, so far (after three years) have not performed especially well--OK, but not what I had hoped might be possible. The ones I got from Musser, from a source in NY, seem to be the best of those I planted.

--spruce

Hm...since I haven't ordered any trees at all yet for this project, maybe I should get part of the order from Musser. As it is, I have NS from Lake Superior Tree Farm and itascagreenhouse.com. They are all doing just fine. They do not keep up with the larch, but what does really? There are a few NS from the original planting, the one from Lake Superior, that have put on amazing growth. Just these few are nearly as tall as the tallest H. larch. Pretty amazing. As to that big wind, I initially saw a few larch that were blown sideways and staked them. But since then, I've noticed some that I didn't see then. These are now growing straight sideways and then curve up and go straight again! Pretty goofy looking and not something I'd try for intentionally, but it's far too late to correct. So I'm going to have some odd morphodites in there. I can live with that.

In the conifers forum, I've also updated this thing. As I expected, the forester urged me to simply go with tamarack. Now I like tamarack, always have. And I'm happy to have that tree growing in my woods. But for this project, I want a larch with the longer lifespan. Tamarack is known to have just about the shortest life of any common larch species. So for that reason alone, I'm not going to go that route.

Total number of seedlings needed for this 6-acre planting will be 5400. Initially, it was going to be an even three-way spit between the red pine, NS, and H. larch. Now, since any H. larch to be planted will have to be on different acres, and in a different year, I'm thinking of substituting that 1800 with 1800 white pine. That tree would keep up with the other 2. Any thoughts?

+oM

Tom:

I am not familiar with red pine in your area. Here in northern VA red pine is not an option. In Garrett county MD they are planted for pulpwood, but have problems with beetles and annosus root rot disease after 30 years or so, and no one is keeping any to grow for timber. In my pine plantings, a few of my red pine are beginning to die. I have been very careful to treat all the stumps of any I cut to keep annosus out, so I am not sure what the cause of the mortality is. I haven't confirmed anything. I keep the trees thinned out so they are vigorous, and should resist beetle attacks. I see evidence of beetles, but I am not sure if they are primary or secondary contributors to death.

So, in the area of my timberland I would not recommend planting red pine. But your area may be different. You already have native white pine, and I love those. If I were starting over at my timberland with plantings, I would do larch Norway spruce, and white pine as the main species. Does your forester have any recommendations about the red pine? Has he talked about any risks?

In my pine plantings, the Norway spruce, the white pine, and the red pine do well together. The Norway spruce started a bit slower than the red and white pines, but they got going fast enough so that they grow up with them well. With the red pine, I was afraid they would be outstripped by the white pine and Norway spruce, but that has not been a problem. The Norway spruce and the white pine are growing faster, and will eventually be much taller, but after about 40 years, they are still compatable.

Of course, you can plant them in seperate blocks, or mix them. I would do some of both kinds of plantings.

One consideration with the red pine--the trees don't assert dominance in a stand very readily, which means they need artificial thinning to maintain a healthy stand. Norway spruce will sort themselves out very, very readily, with the stronger trees overtopping, and eventually supressing the less vigorous trees, so they don't NEED thinning. I thin mine to enhance growth a bit, and make the stand prettier, but after 200 years, unthinned NS stands will be just as fine as stands that were thinned. The same is true of white pine, but in my experience, the best trees don't assert dominance quite as readily.

As for larch, I just don't know. My guess is that they will be like white pine or NS in this regard, but I don't know that for a fact.

So, my bias here is to plant much more white pine than red pine, but I am sure that red pine, which I assume is native there, is for you a much better bet than for me here. Some say red pine is native to the area of my timberland, but I really don't agree. There IS an outlier of native red pine in one spot in WV, but for me that doesn't qualify it as native to Garrett County MD or other places where a naturally growing one has never been seen.

As for your not focusing on planting tamarack, I agree. The native species are not always best. We have native red spruce in Garrett county, but they are far inferior to Norway spruce--no contest. But if you have a very wet area, go with tamarack. They are short lived compared to other larches, but occasionally some have lived well over 200 years.

As for NS seed source--boy, this is tough. I wish I could see your seedlings from Itasca. If some of them are growing very, very fast--that's something! You may not be able to do better. But, are some growing very, very much faster than others? Are there a fair number of "runts." If so, that could indicate that some of the seed is coming from trees not cross polinated. Two possible solutions: you can either plant them at tighter spacings to give you more trees, and thus more really fast growing ones. Or you can try to mix in seedlings from another seed source. The Musser may be a good choice, but, what performs well for me here might not do so well there. Also, You should check and see if Musser has made any changes in the seed they use in the last 6 years or so. If so, I know nothing about what they might be offering now.

One thing surprized me a bit with my NS here. The finest strain I have seen in the higher elevations in the Appalachians was a stand planted near Glady, WV. I dug up some seedlings and planted them at my timberland. I since dug three of those up again and planted them here in the hot and dry northern Shenandoah Valley. I am stunned by their performance here--all three rank as the best of those I have planted here, with the understanding that most of the 400 or so I have planted here are too small to really evaluate yet. But that that strain does so well in the cool wet mountain environment, AND down here, has surprised me. Unfortunately the stand near Glady was cut three years ago--a real shame!

I am not sure what you should make of all I am telling you here, but NS is a remarkable species in its variation and adapability.

Well, keep me posed on your plans and progress. Oh, I am becomming more and more an admirer of Thuja!

--spruce

Whew.....yes, much info, but excellent! Red pine is indeed a WI native. It would be wrong to say there are no issues; Annosus is not unheard of, though fortunately far from widespread. There can be outbreaks of other things but in the main, it remains the tree of choice for those who really want to get tree cover going in the N. sections of the state at least. It is also planted in certain areas of S. WI.

I already heard back from my forester guy who gave his blessing to the new plan, the one incorporating white pine into the mix. I was never going to do that simply because there is decent regeneration in my woods and I felt it would eventually move up into the plantation area. But given the amount of ground I'm trying to cover, it's a natural choice.

I would say that in both Lake Superior's and Itasca's NS, there is indeed significant variation in growth thus far. I remember you advocating for getting as much variety of origin for this species as possible a few years ago, and that thought stuck with me. So I will indeed be sourcing from various places. There's a family operated tree farm very near to my land called Gress Nursery. Forester has said good things about their stock too in the past. So I think I'll get at least some of each species from that guy too. As far as my first batch of NS, the ones from Lake Superior Nursery, they may well be the nicest ones. But I found out from that experience that there's a disadvantage to ordering seedlings from a nursery located up in that extreme snowbelt-you might have to wait beyond your optimal planting dates to get your stuff. It takes a long time for them to be able to get into their fields to harvest. That's what happened the first year; I wanted the trees in April, my land was snow-free and ready to go-and they couldn't do anything up there yet!

This entire planting is based on the foresters spacing recommendation, which is tighter than I had been hand-planting them. This is to allow for some not making it while still resulting in a fully-stocked stand. Should all the trees make it-just for the sake of discussion, some thinning would surely be needed at some point. As it is, I do believe that will be a part of things at some point. Nothing wrong with that though.

I've decided that all my doings with Thuja from here on out will consist of encouraging the existing ones in my woods to spread into new territory, both by moving a few each year into new ground-they come up thicker than necessary-and by making conditions suitable for them to spread by seed. They really come up readily there. And for whatever reason-and I hope I don't somehow screw this up-deer don't touch them! I've moved a few including some that were as tall as I am. You can't kill them. Very tough plants. Now they would never keep up with any of the other species in growth rate. They do coexist in my woods primarily with white pine and white birch. But where I place them, it will be in small groves. I dug a little pond and one side of that needs to have "cedar" around it!

+oM

Tom:

More info/opinions/suggestions:

One consideration in spacing is the variability in each species/seed source. If there is a lot of variation, especially in vigor, the more trees (closer spacing) the more vigorous/desirable ones. Norway spruce is the most variable, so regardless of survival rate, the more trees planted the better. Studies have shown that 6 X 6 gives better results.

But the amount of variability in a batch of NS seedlings varies considerably. Some sources show terrific variability, others less. I am not sure why--two possible reasons: First, the genetic "pool" of the source stand. Second, how the seed was collected--were all the cones on the ground gathered up? Or was some attempt made to gather cones from under selected trees. I am not sure how much the latter matters. With black cherry, not at all, with other species, there is an advantage to selecting the better trees.

The plantings at my timberland--really, just the original ones that were planted before I bought the land--have astonishing variation from tree to tree. In fact, there were even a large number, maybe .05%, of "snake branch" types. I could write a page or two about the variability of the spruce in my older stands.

White pine has less variability, but it is significant. Red pine much less.

Now here is another thought--the thinning. It is not too early to think about that. Can you plant in rows that work on a grid? Meaning, will you be able not only to thin out every other row, or every third row, not just from one direction, but from the 90 degree angle direction? With red pine this is a very good option.

So, can the man placing the trees do so at precise spacings? One idea is to use the planter to mark off a grid before planting starts. Go in one direction with the 6 or 8 foot spacing and use it to just scrape lines as a guide. Then when you start planting from the 90 degree angle, have the tree placer put each tree exactly on that line. If that is possible, you can thin going in either direction, as in both N/S and E/W.

Red pine will have to be thinned, and there is potential money to be had, so more care should be taken to plant red pine to facilitate that.

With white pine, row thinnings are not really a bad idea, especially with 6 X 6 planting. You can do the same as with the red pine suggestion above. But individual tree selection thinning may produce a better eventual stand, but, as I explain below, that can be difficult.

With Norway spruce, if your goal is to have the most beautiful stand, row thinning is, in my opinion, OUT. If you thin by rows, you will be taking out a high percentage of the best trees. Norway spruce should be thinned on an individual tree basis. Of course, this is labor intensive, and it is hard, or impossible, to sell trees for a commercial thinning, without doing it in rows. With the individual tree thinning, the trees mostly get hung up on other trees. I am an expert at getting them down, and limbing them so they lay flat. Huge labor required, but I love the work.

Also, have you thought about planting in gently curving rows, for a better aesthetic effect?

Now here is a "far out" idea! Do you have any especially outstanding Norway spruce stand in your area?? You could collect seed and contract out the growing of the seedlings. Of course, some time is involved. You can collect the seed this fall, then it takes two or three years to grow the seedlings, depending on whether you want two or three year ones. I prefer the three year. But, if you do that, you will know what you get. Of couse, you should check on the soils under any stand you select, and not expect the same results, unless your soil has a similar potential.

If this idea is not too crazy, or doesn't require more time than you can accept, I can give you tips on seed collection. I collected the seed for one of Dr. John Genys' provenance trials.

What have I been doing? I planted 200 bareroot seedlings, and 70 other assorted trees this spring. I planted 150 hybrid pines, loblolly X pitch. Then 50 white pines. I had hoped I could just let volunteers populate the area, but the wrong things dominated, including ash, which shortly will be killed by the emerald ash borer. And then lots of callery pears, and lots of Siberian elm, etc. etc. And black walnut, which I love is "iffy" because the TCD may end up killing them all. So....

I wish I could have planted more, but I had a lot of weeds and brush to contend with--the field has been growing up with blackberry, autumn olive, grape vines, etc. etc. for 6 years. So the planting went slowly with all the clearing out I had to do. And it has been dry here, and I have had to water, and I am not sure I could have weeded and watered any more than I did plant!

Next year I will do some specially improved fast growing loblolly pines, developed by the Virginia forest service.

--spruce

One thing I can state unequivocably (If I could spell that word!), is that you, Spruce, have more energy than I do! I used to be pretty good, but there's been a noticeable tapering off! At any rate, while I'd love to be in it to the point of selecting and developing my own seed source, I will most likely be relying on the offerings of the various vendors.

I think forester guy's plan was for 8' by 6'. I'll have to review our earlier communications to be sure. Something about machinery fitting down the rows, I presume. For the most part, I await an education on working with the planting machine, very likely from the same individual.

I am in full agreement about the relative genetic variation of these three species, with red pine notably lacking in same. All the numerous red pine plantations do indeed get thinned around here. I can honestly state that the effect is beautiful. Once to the stage of needing thinning, you are left with an impressive stand. Big gleaming pink trunks-I like the effect! And I too have pondered the unfortunate side-effect of row thinning-the potential removal of some of the best trees. At least I won't have to worry about that for a while.

I would say that my management goal for all the plantings I've done and will do is "biological", that is, for the remaining trees after any and all thinning cuttings have been made to be allowed to grow to their greatest potential. Basically, an attempt to create the most old-growth-like appearance possible. Plus, sometime within this, other species will have begun to invade. They always do in that part of N. Wisconsin. I see lots of oaks, red maple, birch, and others, even new generation pines, coming up under old plantations. These will be handled entirely on a case by case basis. If not interfering with a better conifer, some of these will be allowed to carry on. Others which I or my by then educated offspring deem less worth will get cut. Even now, there are box elders invading some sections of my oldest plantings. Of course, none of these will make it to maturity!

We'll be renting that machine. Now that I've got living quarters there on the land-a 1952 Spartan "Travel Home", we'll be able to get a lot done in a couple/few days. Nevertheless, efficiency will be at a premium. We'll do it the best we can. I just don't know enough about such planting to say much more just yet.

+oM