Miss Lowe's Variety/Bengal Fire size?

11 years ago

Hello,

I am suffering a bit of Christmas "hangover" but managing to make garden plans. One of my concerns is not overcrowding my plants. I want them to reach their full size without too much crowding. For one thing, I like to see the full shape of the bush. Secondly and more importantly, I don't want to have to do a lot of pruning to keep things "in bounds!"

That is a long way of asking folks who have it, what the mature size of Miss Lowe's Variety is in their garden. Vintage has it as roughly the height of a pretty lady's chest. When I looked at old forum posts, there was a picture of a HUGE Sanguinea in Rome posted by Maurizio, I believe. But, the consensus was out on whether this was the same as MLV/BF.

Again, a long winded way of asking for information on eventual size of Miss Lowe's Variety as sold by VG. I have it 5 feet from an Anemone Bush (Carpentaria) and 5 feet from a grafted Rugosa Alba.

Thank you!

Anne

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Comments (20)

jerijen
11 years ago
Ours isn't what I'd call fully mature, and it's a bit over 4 ft. high and wide. I'm sure it will go larger, because it won't be pruned here.

I'm guessing it won't match the size of, say, Mutabilis -- much less the awesome size of Smith's Parish.

Jeri
annesfbay
Original Author
11 years ago
That sounds fine. I definitely hope the size does NOT become "awesome!" I would hate to have to move it.

Thanks, Anne
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jerijen
11 years ago
In the case of Smith's Parish, the thing is VAST. I hope no one ever plants it in a regular garden bed!

Jeri
mendocino_rose
11 years ago
I've seen Miss Lowe's growing at the Vintage home garden. It appears as what the catalog describes.
floridarosez9 Morgan
11 years ago
Well, Jeri, it was one of the first antiques I planted from a tiny little rooted cutting from Andrew in Florida who posts occasionally here. I was brand new to antiques and hadn't a clue. It's in my front bed, but a plum tree that got way bigger than it was supposed to partially shades it, so it's not as large as it could have been. It's glorious right now, just covered in blooms and towering over my head--as wide as it is tall. I love roses that are full of luscious foliiage along with the blooms, and SP is fully and luxuriantly clothed.
annesfbay
Original Author
11 years ago
Mendocino Rose, I am very glad to hear that and it saves me a phone call to VG.

Regarding Smiths Parish, I had never heard of it. It is quite beautiful.

Anne
jerijen
11 years ago
It seems from discussion with Dr. Wang Guoliang, there is now some indication that "Smith's Parish" really may be Robert Fortune's "Five-Colored Rose." (Bob Edberg has always said he believed it was, because if he'd been in Fortune's place, that's what he'd have called it.)

It's a heck of a rose. Here, I've never seen a speck of disease on it, and I've never seen our plant without bloom.

Here, Bengal Fire has been every bit as disease-free as Smith's Parish -- which says a lot, doesn't it?

These are just GREAT roses.

Jeri
annesfbay
Original Author
11 years ago
Yes, it does say a lot. Beautiful flowers on beautiful shrubs without a speck of disease. What joy!
Kippy
11 years ago
Inquiring minds want to know...just how vast is a Vast Fortune's "five-Colored Rose"?

Nice photos of it on hmf Jeri!
jerijen
11 years ago
Here, it sprawls up a hillside -- and has, regretfully, dug itself under some iceplant, from whence it pops up periodically.

Maybe 15 ft? By, maybe 10 ft wide?
This image is a younger one, at Chambersville -- early in spring, before bloom, but I recognized that rose immediately. It was well over my head, and I am a hair under 5-ft-tall.

Jeri
Kippy
11 years ago
Well that is a tad more vast than the hmf sizing....

Was thinking to myself, at 5' that is not that big
jerijen
11 years ago
BUT it is a magnificent background plant, in our conditions -- well worth the space it takes. And it is tough enough to stand up to some pruning.

Jeri
anntn6b
11 years ago
I doubt my Miss Lowe's will ever reach the sizes of the same rose in significantly warmer zones, but what I am finding interesting is that it keeps its leaves down to many, many nights when temps of 28F are reached for at least five hours. The leaves are still new looking and seem to have some sort of rosey antifreeze. (Heck, it bloomed well into December until we started to have days without bright sunshine.)
annesfbay
Original Author
11 years ago
I love that--rosey antifreeze :-). I have noticed the same thing. This month we have only gotten as low as 34F only one night but some roses defoliate or start to look a little frost bitten. Miss Lowe in the ground for no more than 3 months still has very beautiful foliage. And very fresh looking.
jerijen
11 years ago
A few years back, we had an actual freeze.

We lost some brugmansias andseveral well-established plumerias, and other stuff. In the middle of that frost-scorched earth, 'White Pearl In Red Dragon's Mouth' went through a magnificent flush of bloom.

DH is now a True Believer in China Roses.

jeri
Kippy
11 years ago
I think I will need to add 'White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth' to my "list"
melissa_thefarm
11 years ago
I don't know if the U.S.'s 'Bengal Fire' is our 'Sanguinea'. But they sound like the same rose. Ours are the first roses in the garden to bloom and the last to stop, and when I last looked at the garden four days ago (we went on vacation and just got back), they were still blooming after four weeks of chillier-than-average December weather, with gray skies, snow lingering on the ground, and eight hour days. 'Sanguinea' grows well even in tough conditions and is always healthy and covered to the ground in handsome foliage. By now ours are 5'-6' tall and a little wider than that, though sometimes I cut them back a bit when they get to interfering with their neighbors. A marvelous, marvelous rose.
jerijen
11 years ago
The U.S. "Bengal Fire" (which was imported from England) appears to be identical to Vintage Garden's 'Sanguinea.' I planted them side-by-side to see. I think this is also identical to what was sold here as "Single Red China."

It's a single.
WPIRDM is double.
This is Hazel LeRougetel's WPIRDM, and mine came from the Sacramento City Cemetery. I think (I was not present) that Dr. Guoliang Wang expressed some doubt as to that identity, FWIW.)
The color is about the same -- but when WPIRDM opens all the way, you can see a "pearl" of white (eye) at the heart of the bloom, surrounding the bright stamens.

Jeri
cemeteryrose
11 years ago
'Bengal Fire' is identical to Vintage Garden's "Miss Lowe's Variety." I have not compared it to their Sanguinea. It also seemed to be identical to Roger Phillip's 'Bengal Crimson,' which he got from Chelsea Botanical Garden. Since 'Bengal Fire' was imported from "an English botanical garden' by Heronswood Nursery, so the story goes, I believe that the circle is complete on that rose. Bengal Fire = Bengal Crimson. Roger said that seedlings of this rose are indistinguishable from the parent. I adore this rose, which is in full bloom right now in the cemetery and to me is a better Christmas flowering plant than a poinsettia!

Dr. Wang said that the word "Dragon" in Chinese roses always indicates a climber, and so he didn't agree that our WPIRDM plants, even ones that build cane-on-cane to a large size, are the same. (Various plants of this rose have been found all over California's Mother Lode - in Fred Boutin's words, "growing feral.) Dr. Wang said that in China they are true climbers. Peggy Martin also thought that the WPIRDM in Louisiana is a bit different. I am looking forward to seeing for myself when I go to New Orleans next spring and talking further about red Chinas with her and other rosarians there.

Wow - I seem to be dropping a lot of names here this morning! Please forgive me, but it fascinates me to talk to rose experts and try to learn from them.
Anita
annesfbay
Original Author
11 years ago
Interesting post. Thank you, Anita. Say, if you have a chance can you let me know how old the cemetery's Bengal Fire is and roughly how big it is?

Another thing, does the cemetery call it Bengal Fire or Miss Lowe's Variety? I have looked on the web, just out of curiosity, but haven't found any information on who Miss Lowe was. Any ideas?

Very interesting about the meaning of dragon in a rose's name in China. And, your trip to New Orleans sounds exciting.

Anne

Miss Lowe's Variety/Bengal Fire size?

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