Wow what a fun project! I really love the Apricot Twist X Atmore Lamarque cross. They are all nice though. The semi doubles are cute little sunny buttons!

Love them! Can I buy one😏

Thank you! @SylviaWW 9a Hot dry SoCal, which one? LOL! Want to try rooting it?

Oh my goodness those are so cute - I was shocked with that picture of them in your hand, I think we all need these in our gardens. My favorite is the Apricot Twist & Atmore Lamarque baby

@roseseek I’ve only just started getting interested in minis and I was wondering if you have any suggestions on books or sites where I could learn more about their history and the motivation for breeding them? I just ordered a few from RVR and would love to learn more!

@Heather RR (PNW 8b) are you in luck! I just happen to have Paul Barden's upload of Ralph Moore's writings which are now archived on the Wayback Machine book marked! There is no one better to learn from than the gentleman who created the American Miniature Rose market. You can't find most of his writings easily now and when you do, they are expensive. I helped a European rose friend obtain one of Mr. Moore's rose books recently and he had to pay $65 for a book I purchased from Mr. Moore nearly 40 years ago for less than $5! (No, I didn't sell him my book, but the seller wouldn't ship overseas so I received it and forwarded it to him in Germany.) Here is a treasure trove of wonder! Now, for the BEST selection of minis at the BEST prices from a marvelous source you will adore, please contact Burling at Burlington Roses and ask for both her mini and full size rose lists. Her prices are SIGNIFICANTLY "friendlier" than anyone else's and she caries SIGNIFICANTLY more varieties! burlingtonroses@aol.com https://web.archive.org/web/20161208182907/http://paulbardenroses.com/ralphmoore/contents/index.html

@roseseek wow, this is awesome - I just read a sample and its exactly what I was looking for. I‘ve been eyeballing minis for some time but only just started my mini journey with Ralph Moore’s Strawberry Swirl (it was on sale at RVR and I was intrigued by a miniature moss) and then picked up a few others at the same time. I love these old histories in roses and gardening in general - thank you!

And now I’m off to email Burling - I’ve heard so much about her and her nursery I guess it’s about time 😊

So excited to see this topic!! I'm trying Hurdy Gurdy x a couple OGRs- just for fun. Love love love seeing Mr. Moor's work get some attention, and thank you soooo much for leaving the reference to his writings!

Are you using/ have any interest in Viraraghavan's roses?I see that he has some he has bred with Moor's stock.

The bottom yellow you bred is so delicate and lovely!

How neat, desertsilver! When McGredy asked Mr. Moore for a plant of Pinstripe, he gave him Star'n'Stripes instead as Mr. Moore hadn't finished exploring what Pinstripe could do. He always stated he suggested to McGredy to raise some self seedlings of Stars'n'Stripes to fix the dwarf habit so he could raise more dwarf, bushy plant from it. From the nearly climbing habit of all of McGredy's stripes and many others raised from them, he didn't take the advice. So, what I would suggest to you would be to raise some self set seeds from Hurdy Gurdy to see if you can raise some which are more dwarf and bushy, then try those with your OGRs Hurdy Gurdy is a fun mini but it can get up to 8' tall. Mix that with the ungainly plant sizes and habits of many OGRs and you just may have some unfortunate results. One of the really beneficial traits of minis is how they can dwarf monsters and engineer in reliable repeat bloom. I raised the rose Nessie from [(R. Brunonii X R. Gigantea) X Mlle Cecile Brunner}. It's once-flowering and likely could eat a small cathedral if allowed. A single dose of pollen from Tom Thumb tamed that beast into a continuous flowering 3' X 3' polyantha type bush. McGredy crossed Hurdy Gurdy with Mighty Mouse which contains Anytime, which helped dwarf his results from the up to 8' plant to one which reportedly is happy remaining under two feet. So, you might benefit from either raising some more dwarf, bushy selfs from Hurdy Gurdy or adding another mini or two to the mix in hopes of engineering in the more controlled size and habit from the foundation of the breeding line.

You're welcome for the link to Paul's site on the Wayback Machine. Thank goodness it lives on there! Yes, I have Faith Whittlesey and I put many things on it. One which grew for four or five years then inexplicably died was from pollen of R X Actii, wichurana X Hugonis. It was a rather interesting thing and definitely a cross between the two plants. It never flowered. If I can catch up and get the seed tables emptied, I have seeds from Faith X Basye's Amphidiploid 86-3, the Banksiae X Laevigata, as well as the yellow Chinese species. You may not have noticed this Robert Rippetoe cross, but it's rather inspired. FAWXDAE https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.84567.1 Who know where to next take it, but look how these monsters were tamed! FAWOLGHER1 https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.61899.0 Good luck with your exploration!

Roseseek - such beautiful new varieties!! Well done...and so much fun for us to look at these new beauties!!

Roseseek, I’ve never been able to root a cutting, so I’d better not try.😟
I have six or seven minis, all from Burling.
Here’s her Lavender Crystal today (pardon the finger). The bloom is pretty big for a mini. The bush lives happily in a crowded bed. I have Marriotta too, but she hasn’t bloomed yet.

There is a garden feature over at Biltmore house in Asheville that could be magnificent with your " this is a cane dotted with buds and flowers. " I've never seen the feature photographed because (IMO) it's never had a rose worthy of it. Some have tried once bloomers on it, others have tried climbers, but to make a cane with good repeat bloom that could be trained along the spokes of an oversized horizontally oriented wagon wheel....just hasn't happened. The last time I saw the wheel it was badly rusted; just think of it painted flat black with multiple canes of that rose, each trained along a spoke.

@stillanntn6b that's the old "pegging" style used in Victorian and Georgian Britain by the "landed gentry" gardeners using HPs. Sometimes they were simply pegged to the ground so the canes developed the laterals better known on climbing roses. Sometimes literal forms were employed. The physical training and grooming of the pegged roses was only one part of the labor equation. Imagine the back breaking maintenance of keeping the grass and weeds clipped from among the horizontally trained rose canes laying splayed across the lawn. There weren't weed whackers then and no animal grazing could be employed as the roses would have been the main course.

@Heather RR (PNW 8b) we both lucked out, again! Paul is updating and adding more Moore material to his Exposue site. Some may be duplicates of material on the archived posts. https://kodakretina.exposure.co/the-writings-of-ralph-s-moore This also contains his work with repairing and restoring/selling old Kodak Retina cameras.

This is really fascinating - I don't tend to consider trying my hand at hybridizing roses, but your posts could change that, @roseseek! I love the idea of mixing these genetics, especially since my favorite OGRS tend to be super large. Is there anything special to consider when deciding which miniatures might be good pollen parents? I only have a dozen or so minis (of course there's always room for more!)

@ElfRosaPNW8b I'm glad you are finding it interesting! The first thing I would consider is what performs well for you. How healthy it is, how much you enjoy it, then I'd look it up on Help Me Find-Roses to see if it has created any offspring. You'll probably need a Premium Membership to research the parentage but that's only $24 a year and well worth it, in my opinion. Not having any listed offspring doesn't mean it can't be used, but if it's something like Rise'n Shine or Avandel, and you can see many dozens of results from it, then at least you have an idea of what might be possible from it. Mr. Moore. obtained is Hybrid Perpetual results from putting Paul Neyron pollen on Anytime, and one he called Lemon D. He also created new "Teas" using Sheri Anne, Joycie, and other minis from Papa Gontier. What minis do you have which perform well for you there? Perhaps we can help you figure out which might be interesting to start with? And, what OGRs are you considering using? Expect rampant growth and a lot of disease in many of the first generation offspring. That's common when combining such divergent lines of genes, but occasionally something really spectacular arises from the masses and that makes it all worthwhile!

@roseseek this is fantastic info, thank you! I've had a Helpmefind premium membership for a few years now, there's powerful information within those lineage tabs. Minis include:

Andrea

Beauty Secret

Cinderella

Jean Kenneally

Judy Fischer

Magic Carrousel

Strawberry Swirl

Twister

Windy City

I've also got some small-flowered shrubs and polyanthas like The Fairy, Essex, Kent, Seafoam, etc. Climbing miniature china Pompon de Paris too.

I have a pretty big mix of OGRs and quite a lot of ramblers. The unusual ones that intrigue me most are the alba Pompon Blanc Parfait - it's super upright and tall, and the hybrid multibracteata Cerise Bouquet (technically not OGR but very odd rose habit). Hybridizing for alba fragrance - that would be amazing, Madame Plantier, Madame Hardy. Working towards remontant ramblers would be fun, like my favorite showy beast American Pillar, healthier foliage too. I have quite a few bourbons, a few mosses, teas, chinas.

What you say about first year disease is really interesting - I would not have guessed this!

ElfRosaPNW8b great! I'm glad you have the membership! Were you aware that using the Advanced Search, you can look to see what the roses you're interested in have been used for in breeding? Of course you can simply physically click on every offspring listed and look whether it was used as seed or pollen parent, but a relatively recent addition to the Advanced Search allows you to search for all of the results from a specific rose used as either parent. Andrea, so far, has been used several times as pollen parent but apparently not for seed. That doesn't mean it won't, just no one has used it for seed yet. A glitch in the search which hasn't yet been solved is when searching for seed parent, sports also show up. Something to be worked on as time permits.

Beauty Secret - pollen only.

Cinderella - twice for seed and a few more as pollen.

Jean Kenneally - quite a few times for seed; and many as pollen.

Judy Fischer - once for seed; once for pollen.

Magic Carrousel - many times for seed; many more times for pollen.

Strawberry Swirl - no reported results.

Twister - no reported results.

Windy City - only one sport reported.

The Fairy is behind many of the Kordes releases and is fertile in both directions if you want to explore poly types. I'd imagine it may be pretty similar with the other landscape types you mention.

Definitely harvest pollen from the minis and try it on American Pillar and the Teas and other OGRs which show results from being used as seed parents. Before you expend the time and energy on creating your own seeds, you probably should harvest self set seed from your garden and practice raising the seedlings. Why waste the time and effort to make seeds you may not be able to successfully germinate and raise yet? Honing your skills on the free seeds waiting for you in your garden saves time and energy.

Digging pollen out of extremely double blooms requires patience and can be done. It may take many blooms of something incredibly double to produce enough pollen to do much with. I dry the harvested anthers and stamen on sheets of plain paper in the living room and dining room. We seldom use the rooms so nothing accidentally bumps them off the tables and no pets are allowed so they aren't an issue in there. The house remains in the high sixties most of the time because of the climate and we don't need air conditioning (again due to the climate) so there aren't breezes blowing through to blow them off the papers. When I'm ready to use them, I carefully dump the material into a clean glass baby food jar to take out to the seed parent flower. Gently shaking the baby food jar helps release the pollen from the anthers and it sticks to the sides of the jar. I apply it to the stigma of the seed parent bloom with my finger tip, wiping off any extra between crosses of different pollen parents.

You may want to invest in this tool to help dig out pollen and remove stamen. This is the most cost effective source for the tool I've found. As it's also used as a sewing tool, you can find it at sewing sources, often for over $20 a piece. They are all made of stainless steel and all in Pakistan. I'm certain only one or two manufacturers are responsible for the world's supply as, other than brand names laser etched or painted on the tools, they are all identical. Rio Grande jewelry supply has the best price around at $4.99 each with a few cents off for quantity purchases. https://www.riogrande.com/product/squeeze-action-4.75-straight-blade-micro-scissors/119341GP/?code=119341

If you think you want to start doing this with any regularity, buy five pair and put the other four where you'll remember where you put them so when you mis place them or break them, you're covered. I mention this here because there is older information on my blog about purchasing them. Hopefully, most of what you might need to know can be found here on my blog post about pollinating roses. http://pushingtheroseenvelope.blogspot.com/2012/08/pollinating-roses.html

I know I've left out much and likely not explained all I should have, as well as I should, so when questions arise, please ask!

@roseseek this is amazing information, thank you for being so generous with your time and expertise! After reading your comments here and also your blog, I'm definitely going to give it a try! I'm realizing that there is a narrow window for the once-blooming OGRs and finding the pollen in the tiny miniature flowers might be a bit challenging. That micro scissor seems like it will be essential. And you're right - I need to make sure I can germinate seeds and maintain seedlings before putting a bunch of effort into harvesting pollen.

I'm surprised that the miniatures are used as the seed parent in some cases, I guess I'm thinking about the OGRs as the seed parents since they tend to produce more hips, but obviously that doesn't need to be the case. And I have seen that useful new feature on helpmefind, I spent some time digging into that last year, it's incredibly interesting. But not really having considered trying hybridizing before, I'll have to look at that in a whole new light!

I have a lot to think about and read! I'm already reconfiguring my garden so I can get a bit more serious about propagating, and this will be a fun addition to that. I think my climate will supply cold stratification but is also generally mild enough to overwinter small seedlings outdoors - to determine when to plant seeds, are you generally looking for a particular soil or ambient temperature? Is there a high/low temperature range that is ideal? I have unheated greenhouses for a bit of extra protection.

@Heather RR (PNW 8b) unless you're using really Arctic hardy species, you don't need that much "winter chill". I live right at the Santa Barbara/San Luis Obispo County line in Central California. We're nine miles from the Pacific, surrounded by lettuce, berries, flowers, broccoli, artichoke and other "truck crop" fields. The citrus and vineyards are a few miles inland on the western facing hill sides which get more real "heat" then we do here on the "flats". We get very few real frosts, yet there is enough chill to grow once flowering roses of many types and I actually have a seedling peony flowering. As long as you don't drop far below freezing, you probably won't need to protect younger plants, and you probably receive more than enough cold stratification simply planting seeds outdoors. Here is an idea you might benefit from to create seedling tables. I would add to this, create an 18" tall simple frame over the table and staple plastic hardware cloth to it to keep birds and rodents out of the seed plantings. Both LOVE rose seeds as well as small seedlings.

I traditionally have planted my seeds the week of Thanksgiving, because in Southern California, that's when the temps usually fell into those suitable for germination and, even more important, IF we were going to receive rains, they would arrive between October and March. You'll find it written in many places that rose seeds germinate in temps below 70 F. My observation is many will continue germinating well into the 80s as long as the nights remain chilly. I wouldn't worry about providing refrigeration for "chill". I primarily used the refrigerator to delay germination until I planted. In Britain, for decades, they planted the seeds outdoors in lead screen covered trays to keep the mice out, and allowed the winter freezes and thaws to provide the stratification. The young seedlings are very frost hardy until they form their first true rose leaves. Does that help?

@roseseek I think you meant to tag me on this topic, thank you! This is great information - by October, we've generally moved into this type of cooler weather. I might be able to avoid refrigerating seeds entirely. We do have a few cold weather events that can be pretty damaging, but they are few and far between and I'm well prepared to deal with them. I've got some frames and covers already too (I sow a huge veggie garden).

@ElfRosaPNW8b sorry about that! You're welcome! I don't see why you would need to refrigerate them. I haven't in almost twenty years. First, it was just too much work and too expensive supplying ziploc bags for literally hundreds of crosses. Second, even with a "spare" refrigerator in the garage, try explaining why you "NEED" to fill it with moldy bags of dirt, even to another plant geek! There are simply some things most sane people do NOT want in their refrigerators. How neat about the veggie garden! My three Toy Fox Terrors would LOVE it. They eat EVERYTHING.

@roseseek as if seed-eating critters like mice aren't bad enough, there's the dogs! And the refrigerator thing - I'm definitely glad that part can be skipped!

@ElfRosaPNW8b the older "Goddess" (the back yard where everything is belongs to them. They're all retired brood bitch, show dogs and it's their "Queendom") taught her daughter and grand daughter how to climb into the plum and peach trees to help themselves. Grandma went over the rainbow bridge a few months ago at age 18 and has been replaced with a three year old "toddler" who is quickly learning from her elders. They learned what tomatoes on the plants were as they often received tomatoes as treats, so we can't grow tomatoes and hope to get any ourselves. Rose hips look like tomatoes. They also know what string beans are as they are also treats. They taught themselves what carrots are. Yup, we used to give them pieces of carrot as treats. They don't mind digging them and eating dirt on them. Strawberries? Yup! Can't grow those, either. Thankfully, we're surrounded by berry fields. Add any organic gardening product, snail bait, fertilizer as well as their "scatological interests", and I spend much of my time policing what they eat and hollering to "drop it!". Lord save me from too smart dogs!

Gorgeous new seedlings Kim! I particularly like the Hugonis seedlings and you've softened the eye while still making a distinct impact on the bloom. These are just lovely as always. Now we eagerly await to see how hardy they are in the frigid north...

Cynthia

@nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska thank you, Cynthia! Are you volunteering? hehehe Kim

Today's Lamarque babies.

Roseseek - I can see those rose buds in a bride's hair...perfection!!

@nippstress - zone 5 Nebraska I emailed you at the ymail. The old aol one came back. Thanks, Kim