Rosa hugonis

It's healthy, hardy and YELLOW.

mad_gallica, the earlier hybrid of Hugonis, Dr. E. M. Mills, I've found and am working on getting through quarantine and re introduced here in the US. It's at least a year away, but it IS found and it IS in this country after a many decade absence.

As for newer hybrids, I have one and I am working with it and attempting to create others. Take a look below. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Thornless Hugonis hybrid on HMF

Ccstpete, since I know nothing about genetics, I don't think I should suggest specific roses, but I will adamantly suggest a class - Tea roses. Teas crossed with other teas and with Poly-Teas and healthy minis, producing smaller teas and poly/teas. I have Duquesa which is a recent cross of Mons Tillier and Duchesse de Brabant. It is a lovely rose in my garden. In fact, I think it's better than either parent in my garden so far.

In fact, I think it would be neat to try to duplicate old tea roses where their parentage is known that have disappeared, basically rebreeding the same rose. I know the odds are long on that, but it worked once. Why not try again? Apparently, the breeders of the 1800's had extensive breeding programs. I wonder if ANYONE (in addition to Kim) has a breeding program now. I guess they're breeding HTs, but for disease resistance how can you beat tea roses for much of this country and the world. Aren't they fairly easy to procreate? And for those on the west coast breeding the appropriate teas for PM resistance would be excellent since it seems to be such a negative there for roses that are otherwise perfect for the climate.

This is a wonderful topic, ccstpete. I hope some bright amateurs take the idea and run with it. It would be cool to have new Tea roses - or the lost old Tea roses again. I mean don't we have enough Hybrid Teas??

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Thornless and smaller/more compact OGRs sounds like a winner to me. Space is a big problem for a lot of people and breeding for a small bush but with the same form and characteristics of the many types of OGRs would be a big plus. One of the things I like so much about OGRs is that each class has it's own very different shape and growth habit. But for the most part they tend to get much to large for my suburban backyard.

I will echo Mad Gallica. Hugonis, Primula, Canary bird, etc are almost perfect roses for my taste. They are halthy, happy, bloom in April when no other roses even spinosissimas do, last long time in a vase, fragrant and are just very satisfying shrubs to grow. By far my favorite roses.
Kim, I glad to hear that you are interested in them for hybridization.
Olga

mmmm, another vote for the burnet roses - perfect in every way. I would really like to see more soulieana hybrids (the lovely Kew rambler), also using R.helenae (Lykkefund). I also love the sweetbriars such as Lord and Lady penzance and Amy Robsart. I would dearly like to see a remontant moyesii type too. I love most wild roses and would really like to see more innovative breeding using roses such as the arctic rose (acicularis), foliosa and especially the lovely nutkana. Finally, I have always been disappointed at the tiny choice of Boursault ramblers - these always have plentiful foliage and good vigour - would like to see more work done in this class, not least because of the nice smooth canes. Oh yes, I have the Portland rose (Duchess of) and would be interested in trying this class with basic floribundas.....and of course, there are my beloved hulthemias.

R. bracteata

Not Mermaid, not the R. bracteata hybrids that Ralph Moore produced.

R. bracteata is such a strong grower that it survives on my clay knoll of a species rose garden with NO care. It laughs at Black Spot and other fungi and the mites that spread RRD don't recognize the leaves as roses. The leaves are a beautiful deep green and the pure white petals are visible from 0.2 miles away as white. It survived the late Easter Freeze (when it and other roses were budded out with potential blossoms) with hardly a hiccough and no dieback at all. It roots easily.

Negatives: sharp thorns. Invasive in Texas but not in my conditions. The species is too large for many gardens.

But there is so much good that some of the good traits that weren't chosed for by Ralph Moore need to be sought out.

"But there is so much good that some of the good traits that weren't chosed for by Ralph Moore need to be sought out."

You should have seen the thousands of truly awful seedlings he sifted through to obtain what he selected. Most were mildewy, incredibly thorny, once flowering (if at all), climbers. That nut is going to take a lot of time, space and work to crack. He did produce several amazing roses from it. I think Pink Powderpuff will always be my favorite. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Pink Powderpuff

In my novice opinion I agree with using Father Hugo. I love his tiny foliage and fall coloring. He's been very healthy for me as well. I would love to find Canary Bird or Kim's new introduction...beautiful!

For the some of the same reasons that I adore Father Hugo, I also love The Burgundian Rose. It is very healthy, has tiny foliage, and a lovely spring display! I also like that it says small. I would like to find roses similar to it in size, foliage, and health.
~Tammy

Well, I would love to see CHINA DOLL in production... I know it is not quite in the scope of the topic, but it seems there must be a way to more easily root and then graft it on Fort.... it is by far the best rose in my garden, never stops blooming and seldom gets BS, and stays that cute little pink border-plant.... I'd grab at least 5-6 of them if they were available...on Fort. of course....sally

What I would like to see is more recent (or not) innovative hybrids available here in Europe.

Melissa, have you taken a look at Bierkreek in The Netherlands? I located Dr. E.M. Mills, the old Van Fleet Hugonis hybrid from the 1920s, in Sweden. Hans obtained it and has put it back into commerce. He is growing a number of imaginative roses from several of us here in the US as well as from all over Europe. He is the only commercial source for my 1-72-1Hugonis hybrid, the thornless miniature X Hugonis cross which gave a light repeat this year. Perhaps you have more available to you than you thought? Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Bierkreek

my horticultural college had a particularly fine hugonis cultivar bred by Hilliers - 'Albert Edwards'. I lurked around for several years in the hope of rescuing a sucker, eventually tried softwood cuttings - out of at least 20, I got one to strike....and then gave it away to my step-ma-in-law in Scotland. Have been craving it since.
Wish, wish, wish we could easily get our hands on the Skinner et al hybrids such as Suzanne....and then, there are the Finnish varieties. Am growing Cantabridgiensis this year, alongside R,primula and Falkland.

Rosa harisonii

One of my nominees for THE rose of the US, I'd love to see hybridizers dwarf it and tame its spread while carrying forward its disease resistance and hardiness.

Here is a link that might be useful: George Folliott Harison's Yellow (US circa 1824)

I love growing Portland roses which seem to have been overlooked in modern times. They repeat bloom well, are very fragrant, most are healthy, and bushy/compact growing. My favortes are Marchessa Boccella/Jacques Cartier and Rose de Recht.

Lori, take a look at The Mayflower and Sharifa Asma. Both show strong affinity to Portland types and should look wonderful with yours. Hopefully, they'll be hardy and resistant enough for your climate. Kim

Madame Plantier which is reportedly an R. alba x R. moschata cross. If selfed maybe a seedling would bloom in the Spring from its alba parent and late summer from its moschata parent.

I'd also like to see Mme Plantier crossed with a large flowered, highly scented, repeat bloomer (like 'The Doctor') and then self the results until a rose was produced with the Mme's exquisite scent, shade tolerance, grace of form and health and the other parent's repeat bloom and flower size.

Another possibility would be to substitute a good hybrid musk for the Mme in the last scenario with the same objective.

Cath

anntn6b

Robert Rippetoe wrote an article about breeding with r. bracteata.

I've grown two of Mr. Moore's brateatas in my northern California garden and they did not thrive, but are doing very, very well in a garden across town.

Smiles,
Lyn

Here is a link that might be useful: Bracteata, A Feral Beauty, Tamed at Last!

I have often daydreamed about someone hybridizing new colors and more repeat into the Banksias. I can just imagine that lovely abundance in pink or purple or apricot or even red! Can you imagine them crawling 50 feet up into a tree with those colors?

Annabeth

Kim, I'm aware of Bierkreek and some of their interesting activities, but haven't taken a look at them recently...will do so now. Thanks.
Melissa

You're welcome. Hans also has some of my Fedtschenkoana hybrids, Basye's Legacy hybrids as well as some Robert Rippetoe roses bred from all sorts of interesting things. There is a very nice list of the "found" roses from California. I particularly made sure he received every permutation I could find of Grandmother's Hat so someone over there could FINALLY grow that bloody rose beside all the look-a-likes and see if they can figure out her identity. These roses do so well over here, they should love where you are. I think you are going to have fun! Kim

Kim, I was interested to learn about the re-introduction of Dr. E.M. Mills. I guess that Bierkreek got theirs from the same source as mine, the Himmelstalund School Rosarium (Himmelstalundskolan). I am rather disenchanted with it but perhaps it will improve. I got it as a very small sucker in 2008 and it's not in an ideal place. There are quite a few Dr. E.M. Mills in Uppsala gardens distributed by a local enthusiast and rose rustler and mine came by way of her.

The rosarium is interesting, founded in 1965 and frozen in that time. The list of roses is on HMF. Very few newer roses have been added since then and the rosarium is badly kept in spite of belonging to a college of gardening, farming and animal husbandry. They are very strong on species roses so I wouldn't be surprised to hear that there are chance seedlings all over the place, perhaps even some interesting hybrids.

urk, mariannese, this is exactly the same at our supposedly world famous botanical garden in cambridge. the 'rose garden' is an absolute disgrace, far removed from the days of dr. hurst and graham thomas -typing one handed with infant on lap, hence no capitals. they get the volunteers to show round groups and never let us near the actual plants. a woeful mess,

That's how I found Dr. Mills, Mariannese. Eons ago, it was through reading the Combined Rose List then contacting gardens and nurseries listed there. I'd seen the black and white photo in the 1926 (?) ARS annual and I HAD to see the rose. Fortunately, Hans knew the people there and was able to obtain the rose. Talk about pulling a rabbit out of a hat!

I understand the frustration of a place being frozen in time, but it surely beats historic collections being replaced with "discount store fodder" types. We're seeing more of that all around. Instead of maintaining the older types which have been the draw for decades, hedges of Knock Outs and their ilk are used to reduce labor. Boring. Kim

I quite like the fact that this rosarium is frozen in the 60'ies, my frustration is over the bad maintenance. You would think they could send out the students to do some pruning and weeding.

In spite of its faults I prefer this garden to the rose garden at Filoli where the roses are the latest sorts from Delbard and Guillot instead of polyanthas from the 30'ies. The newer roses may be better but are not in keeping with this very beautiful period garden. All other features are lovingly preserved so why not the rose garden?

Mme Plantier, mentioned above, and Mme. Legras de St. Germaine are both thought by some to be hybrids of alba and noisette. Both seem to have inheirited alba hardiness. If either were crossed again with a noisette, I wonder if one might produce hardy, repeat blooming roses with alba and noisette characteristics.

The rose Marie Dermar succumbed to cold, even though protected, in my yard, but for the summer I had her showed no BS, not one spot.

Princesse de Nassau has a beautiful configuration of foliage, and, if not overpruned, a nice shape.

Marianesse, I believe that is the source. I am SO happy it remained there until it could be brought home. I've never seen it in person and can't wait to see what it's like here. I want to use it with my 1-72-1Hugonis hybrid to see if repeat could be brought out while keeping the Hugonis character.

Nastarana, most of the amateur breeders I know already have their focuses and goals. This one sounds like something you should try, no kidding. You could easily cross either one with a Noisette, or even with each other to see if you could bring out the traits you seek with the hardiness you need. Please, think about it! Kim

Roseseek I am still learning how to keep roses alive and growing in CNY! My Portlands, my favorite of all classes after albas, are hardy, but don't grow. I brought most of mine indoors for the winter, where some are putting out new growth. I plan to keep them in their black plastic pots during next summer, in a sun collecting location, to see if I can get any further growth.

Can you recommend a source to explain Rose Hydridizing for Novices?

Nastarana, the Rose Hybridizers Association has several. The link is below. There are probably a number on You Tube and other sites. I haven't scouted them so I can't offer specifics. I can tell you, it ain't as exacting, detailed or rocket science as many make it out to be. The most rudimentary efforts can result in tremendous successes, but WE always love to make it brain surgery.

What I'd suggest, if you haven't already done it, is to collect some self set hips from your roses, clean and sew the seed to get used to raising them from seed. It has a few extra twists from tomatoes and other more easily handled seeds, but still is not difficult. Get accustomed to what's best for raising them in your climate first, so once you have seed of your own creation, getting plants from them will be MUCH easier. Why experiment on something you've worked to obtain, when your garden probably offers many you can learn on?

You'll read quite a few methods of collecting pollen, holding and storing it, how to tell when it is ready, when the mother is ready, etc., and they all work due to various rose types and climates. You can determine a lot of what will work for you there with your roses simply by studying the roses in your garden. Read the various suggestions in the articles on the Hybridizers Association forum. Watch whatever videos on You Tube you can find. Ask people you know who do it and study the roses you have and want to play with. Some suggestions will appear to contradict each other. Play with them to see what works for you where you are. As with rose growing, there is no "one true religion". What works for you there, is likely to be quite a bit different than what works for me here. It doesn't make one wrong and the other right, just different. You'll likely find several methods which work for you, so you may select the steps which are easiest for you.

Search the threads on the RHA forums and read them. You can always reopen a thread there to ask questions. Register on the site, even join to receive the great newsletter, so you can send private messages to those posters who have offered suggestions you'd like more information on. It's easy. It's fun. And, you have a preset goal of what you would like to see created. You're half way there! Kim

Just keep telling yourself, it is NOT that hard and doesn't have to be expensive and time consuming, unless you wish to make it so. If you have any questions, please ask!

Here is a link that might be useful: Rose Hybridizers Association home page

I would love a rose, any rose, of any parentage, with the fragrance of 'Eugene de Beauharnais'. I put up with a miserable little rust-dripping plant for that heavenly fragrance.

"miserable little rust-dripping plant" ... I love that, Hoovb! That's what Prospero was for me, too. Eugene is a bit cleaner here than the other was. Kim

Thank you for your encouragement, roseseek.

I would like to see what crossing ayreshires and noisettes might produce also.

You're welcome nastarana...well, just DO it. It isn't hard and can easily be done around everything else. Who knows? You might just hit on something great! Kim

Maybe someone could use the Sempervirens ramblers (Adélaïde d'Orléans and Félicité et Perpétue) to produce a remontant type. Their flowing form reminds me a lot of the Banksias, mentioned by Annabeth above.

Kim, thanks for the heads-up on Sharifa Asma.

Larry

I'd love to see new work done with Rosa Wichuriana. Surely somebody is crossing it with the latest and greatest little nonstop bloomers. One hopes...

And I agree that Bracteata, (and its cousin from India, and the one from that region with a tolerance for wet feet) (going into a meeting...can't look them up...) offers much of value.

And please, somebody, do something with Banksiae Normalis!

You're thinking of Clinophylla. It is being worked with. Robert Rippetoe is working with Banksiae and has several generations of hybrids from his original Lila Banks, the world's first lavender Banksiae Hybrid. Several of us have potential Banksiae seedlings. Mine are definite hybrids as attested to by the foliage and terminal, chronic mildew. Lack of resistance to mildew is a characteristic of Banksiae seedlings. I'm also watching a 20 month old Lutescens self seedling which, instead of taking up to two years to germinate, came up after only four months after planting. Lots of growth so far, but no flowers yet. Kim

R. alabukensis--it's a happy little mound of green covered in the most delightful single yellow flowers in spring. Pretty, small foliage--many leaves per leaflet of an appealing shade of green. I'd like to see something just like it except that I'd want it to bloom reliably repeatedly. I like this rose so much that I removed a nice chunk of real estate being used by the suckers of another favorite, Jenny Duval in order to plant alabukensis in a primo spot where I'd see it all the time.

R. foetida Persiana. Yes, I know it is said to be of almost legendary ill-health, but I've had it now for about 9 months and it hasn't shown a speck of anything on its leaves. The gorgeous intense yellow combined with globular flower shape packs a visual punch and isn't to be found in any other rose I can think of. Leaves are an attractive dark green and more interesting looking than seen on the average nursery stock. What I'd like to see would be a repeat flowering BIG climber covered in these striking YELLOW flowers. What a sight that would be. And just as a sidenote, I brought home many roses from Eurodesert last year, this one among them, and guess which rose out of all of them wowed the neighbors and brought the most compliments? Persiana.

R. primula. Yep another yellow! I've had it only a short time from Pickering, but it has already rocketed onto the favorite list. Love the way it flowers directly along the canes. A repeat-flowering primula would be a stunning addition to any garden. Scented foliage is a plus too. Just imagine all the possibilities of differing scents emanating from the leaves.

R. californica. The fragrance of this rose can be very heady, of cloves and cinnamon. Just add a bit more repeating, and I'd like it even more. One of the selections I have, Los Berros, has plushy/velvety feeling leaves. The tactile bonus is something that could be explored more in rose breeding.

R. minutifolia. The ferny foliage provides interest and a different texture to the flower bed. I'd like to see more done to add a variety of colors, different numbers of petals (it's a single) and the addition of scent.

Melissa

La Reine please in lighter shades of pink and white and maybe more compact and quicker repeating. But don't change that fragrance. La Reine X Iceberg. The perfect rose.

kittymoonbeam, get busy and make that cross! LOL! I won't spray and can't grow La Reine due to terminal rust and black spot. If you can grow her, you should make the cross, many of them, to get some promising seedlings. Kim

I have a Purple Heart on order just for the clove fragrance. It has R. californica in its background, so I'll second Tessie's suggestion for that species. As long as the size and thornage get reduced. It has some DEADLY looking prickles!

I wonder what would happen if you crossed R. californica with one of the early, itty-bitty polyanthas like Mignonette or Paquerette. Or maybe even Clotilde Soupert? (If such crosses were even possible.)

Well, seeing as how Theano is a hybrid between Californica and Crimson Rambler, a multiflora hybrid, and since polyanthas originated from multifloras, it should be possible. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.39441.0

Here's one thing you might expect, though it's half miniature. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Golden Angel X R. Californica nana

Cute little thing. The note in Member Comments says the californica nana might actually have been R. spithamea?

The foliage is intriguing. I bought a mystery rose called Grafin Esterhazy because it was described as a thornless China. Thornless yes, but China? Grafin's foliage is like a glossy version of Golden Angelcana. There is a note that Grafin could be a china/polyantha hybrid.

Now I'm thinking R. californica x Marie Pavie. :-)

Here is a link that might be useful: Grafin foliage

Ralph Moore collected the pollen parent from around a cousin's mountain cabin, rather far up in the Sierra Nevada mountains. Rather than Spithamea, R. Bridgesii is more likely the culprit, IF it wasn't a Californica, though the foliage on GACalnana is quite reminiscent of Californica, as is its growth habit and bunched flowers on short stems.

There is much overlap among California (and other groups) species with quite a bit of hybridization naturally occurring. He called the rose "nana" due to its more dwarf stature compared to traditional Californica. The severity of conditions where he collected the rose could easily have dwarfed it in the wild. I don't know how long he cultivated it at Sequoia nor did I ever see it growing there.

He only maintained two seedlings raised from the cross. One was a fairly traditional looking pink, double mini with pretty foliage. He maintained that one for further observation, though there is no record as to what became of it. I admired this seedling for a long time and asked to be permitted to buy a plant of it. He surprised me by giving me the only plant of it he had, which is where those scattered around have come from. Kim

Great question.

I long for more Old Garden Tea roses, and their immediate hybrids.
I've often wished I could cross the disease resistant pale yellow Tea roses
'Souvenir de Pierre Notting' or 'Etoille de Lyon'
with a Pernetiana such as
'President Herbert Hoover' or
'Etoille de Feu' or
'Duquesa de Penardana.'I never can remember how to spell that name... theres a tilda there somewhere too.
all of these roses are disease resistant plants in a local no-spray garden.
I'd like to see a flame hued, fragrant ever-blooming Tea-Hybrid that is disease resistant with the rapid re-peat of the Tea class.
Locally 'Lady Hillingdon' gets powdery mildew in each of the 4 seasons, but continues to bloom through all, but it is barely fertile. It has been such a popular rose for a hundred and two years, I think another Tea-Hybrid of similar but deeper hues would be a success.

A white Tea-Hybrid rose that holds up well as a cut flower would be sublime.
I'd like to see a cross between the Tea-Hybrid cl.'Mrs. Herbert Stevens'
with the fragrant 'Westside Road Cream Tea' both of which are disease resistant, in my no-spray garden.
Or W.R.C.T. X 'Snowbird' or 'White Christmas', which has a sweet fragrance.

Alba Semi-Plena for disease resistance, and beautiful foliage, I imagine a white Tea-A.S.P cross through several generations to produce a remontant hybrid.

'Niphetos'X white 'Rose of York'=heaven.

I sure do love Tea roses, and Albas.

Luxrosa
p.s. plan9, look to Groundcover roses from 1990 and onward, many were bred from R. wichurana, and hortico.com sells several of them. I suggest you look for "disease resistant' roses under Groundcovers and then look up their parentage on helpmefind.com
I have Ralph Moores 'Simplex' a small remontant wich. hybrid that has apricot buds that open to show white wild- appearing rose blossoms.

SoCal Melissa spoke to my heart when she talked about the desirability of variety in foliage, etc. Roses have been bred for flowers, fragrance, health, good habit (compact and leafy); but not much for variety in foliage, canes, thorns, buds, and so on. This is a major reason why I find so many roses boring: they look like different flowers all stuck on the same plant. Old roses and species and their hybrids are more varied and so more interesting.
By the way, my unsprayed R. foetida and 'Persian Yellow' are healthy too. They like hot dry summers.
Melissa in Italy

Dr. E.M. Mills sounds fantastic! Interesting cross!

Palustrus scandens at least my clone that I got from Ashdown and now is at Rogue Valley is a dream of a plant.

Butter smooth thornless ruddy-purple stems, willow foliage that has pretty good disease resistance and large I want to say maybe 1.5-2 inch rather large hot-pink semi-double flowers. It also blooms on and off all summer. Very unrose-like.

I would love to the health and full petals of the gallicas really bred into a remonant line, but that requires a ton of patience.

Actually hugonis crossed with more petals might be something I'd love to see. hugonis crossed with gallicas.

Duchesse de Montebello gallica x Hugonis or Canary Bird?

Maybe Kim your cross your thornless type with known gallica/modern crosses like 'James Mason' its parent 'Scharlachglut'

Interesting idea, oath5, except, Gallicas, for the most part, will NOT flower where I live. Been there, done that. The only one which flowered with any regularity and without having to be packed in ice for me was Cardinal de Richelieu and it proved completely sterile in every attempt I ever made with it, both as seed as well as pollen parent. The one time I got to use Tuscany Superb pollen was when bare roots which had been held in cold enough storage, leaved out and flowered. I collected pollen from them and took it home to spread around. It worked, but the two resulting seedlings weren't any happier than their daddy. Only one survives and it is safely grown by Paul Barden.

If you want more petals on Hugonis, look at the link below.

There is also Alabunkensis Flore Plena, a double yellow species variant. http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.40088.1 I've not grown the double forms, but probably should. Kim

Here is a link that might be useful: Hugonis Flore Plena