these pictures knocked my socks off----they are really scary.

the fire picture is unbelievable-

thinking of you,
Florence

lagomorphmom, my goodness! What a horrific photo - both of them. Those firefighters sure are brave. So, so glad you're safe.

Sherry

Lagomorphmom! Terrifying images!

We were 2 mi from the evacuation zone for the Guiberson fire, but we never thought it would come this far, and it did not.
YOur situation was more dire.
Don't we all thank God for the wonderful people who fight these fires?
Watching an air support chopper or airplane go overhead, you want to stand up and cheer. Bless them. Every one.

Jeri

Those are really horrific pictures and how very fortunate that your home and your town were saved. Being evacuated is the pits, a really surreal experience. I can't think of anyone I admire more than firefighters, who have an incredibly difficult and arduous job to do. I'm sure they really appreciated your thank you feast.

I'm so glad you're safe.

Ingrid

Wow, amazing pictures. I'm glad you're safe, and it's heartening, as always, to hear tales of cooperation and mutual support.

Yes, the firefighters are incredible, which is also why I wanted to share a somewhat off topic post, I can't say enough about them. I surely know not what I know not, but as dangerous as building fires are, after my extremely peripheral view of this, wildfires are another order altogether. At one point the flames were 75-100' because of the combustibility of the fuel mostly and winds were gusty and variable. For those of you that are not in fire country, fires also 'make their own weather' because the heat updrafts.

My bad, I forgot to credit the photos to the folks that dowloaded them to our wrightwoodcalif.com community forum, another tremendous resouce, waaaaay ahead of the local news.

I also forgot to credit all the pilots of the helicopters, tankers, and even the new DC10 that's being used to drop retardant and also all the guys that worked the dozers. The folks on our forum who have worked fires always say that air support is just one tool out of the tool box, but I am thankful that they threw a lot of resources at it at the beginnning.

Ingrid, if you're 'listening' and for any other folks this might help, we did gel the house before we left. According to our Chief in SB Co. who also has a military background with the gel, he hasn't lost a structure yet that he's gelled. Too many pics to post here, but if you follow this link, you can see the progress of the fire up Swarthout Canyon. At the end, you can see a local 'institution', Clyde's Ranch, an apple farm that's been there forever and so have the buildings. Firefighters dozed around it and gelled - you'd never know there was a fire around it if you didn't see the previous pics (start at reply #128), you can see Clyde's in the midst of the fire and after:

http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php?topic=14613.125

A few more pics from 'firefightersteve' from our forum:

Dozer:
{{gwi:319270}}

Ericson Sky Crane:
{{gwi:319271}}

From SurferDude, a wide view, Clyde's is about where the road leaves the view:
{{gwi:319272}}

What an education!

Yes, the firefighters are incredible, which is also why I wanted to share a somewhat off topic post, I can't say enough about them. I surely know not what I know not, but as dangerous as building fires are, after my extremely peripheral view of this, wildfires are another order altogether. At one point the flames were 75-100' because of the combustibility of the fuel mostly and winds were gusty and variable. For those of you that are not in fire country, fires also 'make their own weather' because the heat updrafts.

My bad, I forgot to credit the photos to the folks that dowloaded them to our wrightwoodcalif.com community forum, another tremendous resouce, waaaaay ahead of the local news.

I also forgot to credit all the pilots of the helicopters, tankers, and even the new DC10 that's being used to drop retardant and also all the guys that worked the dozers. The folks on our forum who have worked fires always say that air support is just one tool out of the tool box, but I am thankful that they threw a lot of resources at it at the beginnning.

Ingrid, if you're 'listening' and for any other folks this might help, we did gel the house before we left. According to our Chief in SB Co. who also has a military background with the gel, he hasn't lost a structure yet that he's gelled. Too many pics to post here, but if you follow this link, you can see the progress of the fire up Swarthout Canyon. At the end, you can see a local 'institution', Clyde's Ranch, an apple farm that's been there forever and so have the buildings. Firefighters dozed around it and gelled - you'd never know there was a fire around it if you didn't see the previous pics (start at reply #128), you can see Clyde's in the midst of the fire and after:

http://www.wrightwoodcalif.com/forum/index.php?topic=14613.125

A few more pics from 'firefightersteve' from our forum:

Dozer:
{{gwi:319270}}

Ericson Sky Crane:
{{gwi:319271}}

From SurferDude, a wide view, Clyde's is about where the road leaves the view:
{{gwi:319272}}

What an education!

Sorry about the dupe posting, GardenWeb said the first was rejected, go figure...

My aunt lives near Sunland, fortunately that fire was on the other side of the highway and took off away from her place. It burned for weeks. She wasn't evacuated, but did leave periodically to find fresh air to breath. What devastation! It's small comfort to know everything will grow back in time when you're looking at that. Thanks for sharing.

I'm so glad that you are OK. The photos are amazing. You are so right about the fire fighters.

Wow - those are amazing pictures, and what a frightening ordeal! So sad, too. All the lives interrupted - human, plant and animal. So glad you're fine and that your house survived. I've never heard of this 'gel', but it sounds like an incredible invention. Thanks for sharing.

That fire was way too close for anyone. What a picture!!
What is gel and how do you put it on? Do you keep it in advance? I am so glad you are safe.

SAmmy

That fire was way too close for anyone. What a picture!!
What is gel and how do you put it on? Do you keep it in advance? I am so glad you are safe.

SAmmy

Sammy, are you trying to make me feel better by dupe posting also? ;-) I'm starting to think there's another GW bug...

So yeah, you know, I know we're supposed to keep off-roses topics away, but I think info on gel fire retardant is good information to pass along as we have many members not just in fire prone Calif. but also the plains and desert states like Idaho, Arizona, etc. We can just say it's so our roses don't burn up, right?

'Gel' is a polymer that is extremely hydrophilic and thus absorbs many, many times it's weight of water. In fire prevention, the idea came to a fireman in Florida who noticed that baby diapers don't burn in house fires (wouldn't you know ;-) In gardening, I think the polymer may be similar to the crystals we buy to retain moisture in potting soil. Have you ever taken a teaspoon of the stuff and put it in a quart of water? If not, do try it to see how it works and it makes a cool science demo for the kids. All the same idea but somewhat different formulation/excecution.

Segue a few years later and it has been available for home/consumer use for the last few years. For professional use, the San Bernardino Co. FD has a 'gel task force' of trucks that are used to spray homes on the front line of the fire, thus enabling firemen to not be in harms way. Also, according to forum members, there was a Liberty Mutual truck in town to do the same to it's insurees, the only problem was they were not pre-approved to go into the mandatory evacuation area, so that's something that needs to be worked out with departments in the future. I know SBFD had good success with it a few years ago with the Big Bear fire, but it was a new idea at the time. Some of the air tankers can use it as well, problme is, it is expensive.

Gel vs. foam. Gel is much more effective retarding fire because it is water-based where as the red foam retardant that you see planes drop is a chemical 'fluffed' with air. Don't ask me how it works.

Back to the home consumer. There are two brands that I'm familiar with, Barricade & ThermoGel, I'm sure that there are more. Preferences by fire personnel in town vary. Thankfully we were given a Barricade home kit by a fire inspector friend who moved out of town. We have another friend who uses it who's a retired captain and now works fires as an information officer. Otoh, the guys at our local station who live in town tend to have ThermoGel and that is what the hardware store carries.

What's the difference? I honestly haven't done enough research to satisfy my science self yet. HOWEVER, Barricade touts being canola oil based, whereas other companies evidently use 'mineral oil' bases. Again, what's the difference? I haven't had the time to confirm Barricade's claims, but here's the problem they claim with other brands:

"Q: WHAT IS NPE-FREE BARRICADE II?
A: NPE-Free Barricade ® II is the result of 10 years of research and testing to eliminate nonylphenol ethoxylates (NPEs) and petroleum distillate from the original Barricade formula. NPE-Free Barricade ® II has been approved for use by the US Forest Service in a wide range of firefighting functions including application by large air tankers, smaller Single Engine Air Tankers (SEATs), helicopters using buckets as well as firefighters on the ground using fire engines. Barricade ® II is the first and only liquid fire gel concentrate that has been approved for use by the Forest Service that does not contain toxic chemical additives known as NPEs and petroleum distillate oils. Environmental organizations have called upon the U.S. Forest Service to ban the use of other firefighting chemicals that contain NPEs.

Barricade ® II was specifically developed for use by commercial and government entities where a large quantity of gel is used or there is frequent contact by firefighters.

Q: What are NPEs and are they dangerous to animals or humans?
A: NPEs (a.ka. Nonylphenol Ethoxylates) are surfactant components found in some other brands of fire gel products. Recent scientific studies have shown that NPEs have negative effects on the reproductive systems of animals and humans in extremely low doses which can cause birth defects in future generations. Currently, the US Forest Service testing program that approves chemicals for use in wildland firefighting does not examine the potential effects on future generations...it only looks at the short-term. Environmental groups have requested that the Forest Service cease using and rescind approvals on fire chemicals that contain NPEs. Barricade is proud to offer the ONLY liquid fire gel that is completely free of toxic NPEs and petroleum distillates. Barricade is the only fire chemical of any kind to be awarded the prestigious "Champion" award from our nation's EPA."

Ok, so I'm a microbiologist and chemist, I'm not. Is this a warning where if you give 3 trillion times the dose to a rat it keels over dead, I dunno. According to Wikipedia,

"Toxicity concerns
Since these compounds are widely produced over the world and are designed to flush down the sink, concerns about their safety has increased in the past years. Several research programs have shown that these surfactants have a mild to medium estrogenic function. [1] Consequently, this class of detergents has been effectively banned for commercial "down-the-drain" applications in Europe, and these compounds are not found in laundry detergents in the USA."

I don't have access to the referenced article. I did try to find the MSDS for a couple of other products and so far, haven't found comments about this chemical.

So anyway, point being, we are all somewhat new to this type of product, I am doing as much research as I can. Performance being equal, I guess we'll continue with what we have pending more study/information on my part.

Price point. Well, a 4 gallon home kit of Barricade with sprayer attachments for your hose run around $326. I assume other brands are around the same.

Shelf-life. That's a conundrum. Guaranteed shelf-life of Barricade is 3 years. I know ours was older. All mfgrs recommend shaking the gallons every so often so that it doesn't settle which will cause nozzle clogging because the gel won't siphon out. It may be over time that the warrantied shelf-life increases as companies keep their stock longer or come up with more stable formulations, but bear in mind that's also a liability issue for the companies.

Use and clean up. Use, well, wear a rain coat and make sure you've read the instructions before the call to evacuate. ;-) The stuff is mess if it's windy, which it usually is for fires like these. Also, coverage depends on your water pressure. Our clean up was pretty easy because as I said, we should have shaken it (but didn't know) so we didn't get it on thick enough. 'Stickiness' depends on surface and they recommend that you spray water on it to rehdrate and then come back with a stream of water. Ours came off of old paint fine, also windows. Faux shutters required more water. We also sprayed the attic vents.

Plants. Barricade is safe for plants, you can read up on other brands if you decide to buy. Our only no-joy was that we couldn't get the crowns of our pines, the bigger ones are about 80' or so with the 3/4" home hose setup.

All in all, moving forward, we plan to replenish what we used. If you live in a high fire danger area, it's cheap insurance.

When I try to post here, I receive an internal server error. I wrote GW about it. I also received the error when I tried to email you privately. I don't know if this will go through, but I will only try it once this time.

Thanks for the information. It is always interesting to read about something you had never even thought about.

Sammy

Hi Sammy, if you want more info you can email me at
lagomorphmom AT pacbell DOT net

The pictures you posted are incredible. How very awe-inspiring nature's power can be, as much so as its beauty!

I'm grateful that you, your home, and your town were spared. My own husband Tom is a ham so I know how useful the ham community can be in a natural disaster, just as you said. It's a pity that the rain we got this past week in northern and central California did not go as far south as your part of the state. For us the fire season is probably now over.

I hope there are no more fires for your area. Actually, it looks as though there isn't much fuel left.

Rosefolly

"Actually, it looks as though there isn't much fuel left."

Yes, and no. There's still our house and the town of Wrightwood!!!

We straddle the border of the SB National Forest and the Angeles NF. Since this fire was to the east, it was administered by SB. The Station Fire which was a few weeks ago was on the west side of the Angeles. If you haven't heard about it on the news, was a terrible shame and yet another case of arson. Burned 160,577 acres (that's 251 square MILES, btw) and killed two firefighters. The beauty of that forest won't return until our children's children. While not the beauty of eastern forests, still a treasure and folks from Germany, France, the UK, etc. would come to ride motorcycles on the 'Crest', Angeles Crest Hwy was a fabulous scenic byway.

Thanks for all the kind comments, I forgot to mention that in my excitement to, er, spew information. Now that you can hardly shut me up, I'll try to post some pics of the house from summer. Next best pics will be two springs from now, I put in about a dozen new OGRs from Vintage in the spring and since I can't resist a sale or 'roses I may not be able to get again' (how much you wanna bet Gregg & Gita belong to CostCo because they use that very same psychology! ;-) I've got about 3 dozen more to spread around. Most will be adding to what I have around the chain link fence of the property but I may need help from you zone 8 folks to figure out how big some of them will get with some good winter snow.

just had a chance to see your post and am so glad you're ok lagomorphmom and that your house is ok and you'll get to plant your roses!

Diane