Soil pH = 7.7! Should I plant or cancel my order?

10 years ago

I've ordered 20 rugosa bareroot roses (fru dagmar) to plant a hedge on our property.

Just got our soil test back indicating that our pH is 7.7, and as I understand it, roses need something closer to 6.0.

I know it will take a while to lower that pH and I'm hesitant to plant 20 roses (a large investment!) here. The supplier seemed to think that it might be okay to go ahead and plant but I thought I'd ask here first. Of course I'll be adding sulfur at the appropriate amount to reduce the pH but it will be months before it actually reaches that pH.

Any tips - would you cancel the order and wait until next year to plant? Or give it a shot this year and hope that they will do okay for a few months at a high pH?

Featured Answer

Slimy_Okra

10 years ago

Iron sulfate takes 2-3 weeks to acidify the soil but you need six times as much (in weight) of it as sulfur to effect the same change in pH.

What you could do is figure out how much iron sulfate you need to reduce the pH to 7.0, a reasonable number, and how much sulfur to reduce from 7.0 to 6.0. Add both and plant after 2-3 weeks. Water well after application to dissolve the iron sulfate.

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Comments (23)

hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
10 years ago
Roses can do very well in a wide pH range. They ain't cranberries. Plant away, plant away.
jim1961 / Central Pennsylvania / Zone 6
10 years ago
I have actually ran into a couple of people whom actually prefer a higher PH level of 7.7 for growing there roses.
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Just went out to check all my leaves. The disease-resistant roses with glossy foliage all have 7-leafets: Kordes Flower Carpet, Pat Austin and Tchaikovsky. Kordes Flower Carpet doesn't have mildew in shade, but Knock-out (5-leaflet) has mildew. Other DISEASE-RESISTANT with 7-leaflets: William Shakespeare 2000, Duchess de Rohan, Excellenz von Schubert, Annie L. McDowell, Blue Mist, Poseidon, Cloudert Soupert, and Crown Princess Mag. ... all have leaves in set of 7. These can take wet soil well, like multiflora rose thriving in wet lands. But the blackspot-prone roses: Comte de Chambord and hybrid teas have leaves in set of 5, and much larger & round leaves. These prefer well-drained soil, and tend to blackspot with prolonged wetness & acidic rain. Multiflora-leaves are clearly a set of 7, see below pic: http://na.fs.fed.us/spfo/invasiveplants/factsheets/pdf/multiflora-rose.pdf "Each multiflora leaf as 5 to 11 one inch-long oval leaflets with toothed margins. The undersides of the leaflets have tiny hairs and are paler than the upper surface. The base of each leaf stalk has a characteristic stipule (green, leafy structure) with hairs or a comb-like fringe along its margins. Flowers. As indicated by its scientific name Rosa multiflora, this plant has abundant, showy clusters of flowers which typically are white, though sometimes slightly pink." Below is Austin rose William Morris, which did terrible in slightly acidic wet & peaty potting soil, then finally died when I put in my wet clay made acidic with cracked corn. Note the leaves are in a set of 5, which means it prefer well-drained & loamy soil, and CANNOT take acid & wetness like those of set-7 leaves. Folks complain about WM being stingy and rust-fungal-prone. The drought-tolerant & disease-resistant Rugosa has rounder leaves in set of 9, plus very bristly canes full of thistles, see below:
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Yeah ... lots of critical things to consider such as initial and changing pH effects*, buffering, multivalent cations, anionic and cationic micronutrients, and zeolite like ion exchange surfaces on soil particles, which make it a play day for chemistry discussions. Then the attack and breakdown of plant and animal litter to slow release nutrients brings up neat microbiology and biochemistry aspects. Material science then decides to manipulate the situation with osmotic release and diffusion of encapsulated nutrients. And hydroponic principles try to partially play nature taking over the hydrology and lighting it up. Physics kicks ideas in there on this last aspect. For instance did you know that fluorescent light indeed glow when struck by energy (as you know), but much of the light intensity flashes through a series of distinct colors at 60 times a second? * Plants cheat neatly by manipulating ion exchange release of cationic nutrients. They knock off ammonium, potassium, magnesium, calcium and other positively charged ions by producing acid(s) to knock it off. H+ alone can cause the exchange but if the acid is on a small organic base (anion) like oxalate this organic can diffuse around and pull at the cations on soil that the plant wants and help knock it off, helping in the "weathering" breakdown of soil too. Chelators made by plants and microbes make it really interesting too. They diffuse around and hold certain critical nutrients so tightly that the plant has the choice of finding more, having a deficiency (specific nutrient starving), making a stronger chelator to take it back, and/or breaking the chelator down to free the nutrient. Now the fun parts ... the plant one might be considering is not be alone. A group of similar or different roots might be working together AND competing in that patch of soil, with different players at different depths Trees cheat and certain non woody plants cheat and go low. Moles, gophers and field mice run through this soil zone toox playing their games. No soil contact then no nutrient uptake, no root then no nutrient collection there for the plant, loss of stored nutrients and need to spend energy replacing the root. And there are smaller life forms co-inhabating the soil with the roots that are also directly or indirectly effected by soil pH. Let's put them into three classes as those that (1) don't generally effect a plant much, (2) can hurt the plant, or (3) can help the plant. Let's see ... hurting a plant is bad, unless it hurts a seriously competitive plant more. Helping a plant is good, unless it's again that serious competitor. Plants are not stand alone organisms in naturem. They live in community with microorganisms. So what if the soil pH helps support the growth of a microbe that can grow all over your plants roots? Sounds bad I know, but there are those three classes mentioned above. If your microbe is a pathogen that is bad. If it doesn't attack the plant but runs out and breaks down nearby leaf litter, great free food. It it doesn't hurt your plant but by being on root surfaces can compete with and stop pathogenic microbes from getting a foothold, great a free natural inoculation for immunity. There was a company called Eden Bioscience a couple decades ago here in the PNW that made an interesting observation. In large scale evergreen seedling production for forestry sometimes there were large scale fungal blights. Sadly alot of the seedlings all died at once in mass. However, sometimes there were a few seedlings near each other that did not succumb! In fact they looked totally healthy! When isolating bacteria, yeast and filamentous fungi from the surfaces of these plants they found that certain kinds could be grown in the lab that protected seedlings from attack, when sprayed onto them. These microbes grew best in their optimal pH range. They indeed colonized the plants, in this case leaf surfaces. And their presence did protect the leaves from pathogen attack. Obviously similar things must be happening in nature in the leaf canopy and also soil root zone of plants. So when a plant likes acidic pH 5 - 6 soil, is this just because nutrients are more available it? When I went to school, in what now seems like the dark ages, most plant physiology books focused almost solely on this. Or is it because beneficial microbes helping feed or protect the plant need that pH? My firm assumption is that both chemical and microbial pH dependent effects interact to make an optimum environment for that plant. And that some plants in the natural environment survive best, rather than grow best, at their optimal pH range. Why do many fungi sour (strongly acidify) what they are busy rotting? Niether competive microbes nor does the dieing plant tissue like it. The fungus gets more. This is exactly why you want to check the pH in the soil that you might be soon preparing for your new vegetable or herb garden this spring. Too basic, your plants starve. Too acidic, the pathogenic fungi don't starve. Then like the heirloom story of The Three Bears ... there's one pH that's just right.
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ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
10 years ago
I agree with hoovb. Rugosas are not shrinking maidens that keel over at the drop of a hat; tough is their middle name. Your hedge should look lovely.
appletree729
Original Author
10 years ago
Oh wow - I can't tell you how relieved I am to hear you all say to go ahead with the planting!!! Thank you:) I've spent so much time planning this hedge (even though I didn't wait for the soil test results before ordering;))

Now the blueberries that are arriving later this week are another story, lol. But there's another thread for that...

I'll let you all know how the roses do!! Thanks again...
bluegirl_gw
10 years ago
I've been growing roses ONLY in very alkaline soil. Long-term solution is to regularly incorporate organic matter & mulch in the soil.

Most valuable short-term help for me is to amend the hole with at least 1/2 pine fines or the finest shredded pine bark mulch you can find. Around here, Lowe's carries a "HapiGro Landscape Mix" that looks about 90% pine fines with a bit of perlite. It sure improves the tilth & helps level out the pH.
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
10 years ago
Rugosas prefer an acidic pH of around 6. Other roses have other preferences.

Since we are talking specifically about rugosas, which sulk here with a pH of 7.2, I think I'd plant them with a suitable amount of sulfur. Then it will take regular maintenance to keep the pH at a suitable level.
wirosarian_z4b_WI
10 years ago
Rugosa roses are one of the least tolerant roses of alkaline soil so at 7.7 you will have an iron chlorosis problem unless you can get your pH well below 7.0. I used to live in an area with high pH (7.6-8.0) due to dolomite limestone being the parent rock layer under my garden. It was impossible to get the pH below 7.2 in that garden because of the limestone so the only way that I was able to grow rugosas without iron chlorsis was to use liquid chelated iron on them. Do NOT use it as a foliar feed on rugosas, use it as a soil drench only. Also liq. chelated iron stains everything, skin, clothes, plastic, concrete, etc. so handle carefully.
Tessiess, SoCal Inland, 9b, 1272' elev
10 years ago
I grow multiple rugosas, either grafted on mulitflora or own root and none of them are chlorotic. Both the soil and water here are alkaline. I've never added any sulfur to the garden, nor any iron. Too lazy! And yet my roses aren't chlorotic.

How alkaline is my water, well here are the latest figures from the local water company:

City water, per the water company's annual report in 2010 had an average ph of 8.2 (range 6.8 to 9.2) and the 2011 report indicated an average ph of 7.9 (range 7.0 to 8.8).

Per 2012 Golden State annual report, ph 8.0 (range 7.0-8.5)

Link to Claremont page information:
http://www.gswater.com/claremont/

My soil I tested with one of the little plastic kits, using distilled water to mix with the capsules. Tried all over the yard. Most spots were well into the alkaline range with a few areas slightly acidic.

Here's a recent photo of my rugosa Polareis which is from Pickering in Canada and grafted on mulitflora. The only thing other than water I give it is some fish emulsion once in a while. It's been planted here since the spring of 2012. I did mulch it at planting time with a little shredded redwood bark, but no mulch since.

So, at least for my garden I ignore the issue of ph for roses entirely.

Melissa
hoovb zone 9 sunset 23
10 years ago
Sorry, I missed the "rugosa" in the original post. I get an "F" in reading comprehension today. My apologies.

Are they grafted? That might affect the situation.

This post was edited by hoovb on Tue, Apr 1, 14 at 1:56
appletree729
Original Author
10 years ago
I actually don't know if they are on their own roots or if they're grafted - ordered them from here - www.springvalleyroses.com.

How does it affect the situation? I'll call them later and find out - I don't see anything on the description about grafting.
wirosarian_z4b_WI
10 years ago
Spring Valley roses are "own root unless noted" , see below, 6th paragraph.

Here is a link that might be useful: Spring Valley Roses
appletree729
Original Author
10 years ago
Oh - thank you wirosarian! I wonder what sort of difference this might make in my situation with the high pH...
wirosarian_z4b_WI
10 years ago
Rugosas on their own roots or grafted on R. multiflora, will prefer acid soil, low 6's or high 5's. On Dr. Huey root stock they will prefer mid 6's pH.

This post was edited by wirosarian on Tue, Apr 1, 14 at 11:46
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
10 years ago
Dr. Huey is fine with a pH in the 7's. I honestly think a lot of the books recommend a pH in the low 6's because that is the sweet spot where Dr. Huey and multiflora overlap.

Thinking this over a bit, these roses are going to be a lot like the blueberries. They are going to need continual soil adjustment to thrive, though they are not nearly as picky. Depending on how comfortable you are with that (and how easy it is going to be to cancel the order) you might want to rethink which roses to put there. Knowing nothing about your criteria, it is hard to make specific recommendations, but as long as it isn't a rugosa or a multiflora hybrid, almost anything will handle the pH better.
appletree729
Original Author
10 years ago
hmmm - it will be easy to cancel the order - I spoke to them the other day about it. I just have to call this weekÃ¢ÂÂ¦

Now I'm contemplating going back to another idea I had for this spot - to grow a lavender hedge. I thought that would be more difficult than the rugosas though.

Either way I'll need to amend the solid I supposeÃ¢ÂÂ¦.
mad_gallica (z5 Eastern NY)
10 years ago
Lavender is easy. Every now and then a bad winter kills some off, and it does tend to have a somewhat limited lifespan before it gets too woody. However, it isn't hard to grow it from seed. It isn't nearly as picky about soil as reported. IME, what it really wants is alkaline soil, and if given that, can handle pretty much anything.
appletree729
Original Author
10 years ago
well.. looks like I've got alkaline soilÃ¢ÂÂ¦

decisions, decisionsÃ¢ÂÂ¦.
User
10 years ago
Just to add what mad-galic said about Lavender. For me, drainage seems to be key. I have plants that do much better in very shallow soil between elevated rocks than those in lower ground.
Tessiess, SoCal Inland, 9b, 1272' elev
10 years ago
Appletree, take a look at the garden listings on HelpMeFindRoses for people who grow Frau Dagmar Hastrup. See if any are near you. If so, you might want to contact them and ask how this rose does for them. Sometimes plants do better or worse than expected, but I find checking what does well for others in my area is very helpful. Especially if they practice gardening the way I do (low maintenance/low water/little if any fertilizer)--basically I go with plants that are happy in my garden as it is, not how much I could change it with lots of effort and money.

Melissa

Here is a link that might be useful: Frau Dagmar Hastrup on HMF, US gardens
professorroush
10 years ago
Oh plant away! I've grown Rugosa roses on alkaline Kansas soil for 20 years and only rarely see problems. If you do, it'll likely be some yellowing of leaves due to iron deficiency tied to the alkaline pH....a little chelated iron will fix them right.

Here is a link that might be useful: Garden Musings.
appletree729
Original Author
10 years ago
Thanks to everyone for all of the wise advice! I'm happy to see that last post by professorroush especially (thank you!) because I have decided to go ahead with the planting of the rugosas. At the very worst, I'll end up with a good post for the "worst gardening mistakes ever" forum ;)

I do have a little bit of time to try and amend the area a little bit in the hope that I can add enough material to get the pH down a little bit at least. Do you all think I should mix in some peat? Or something else? Is there an acidic bagged soil widely available that is marketed for things like azaleas or anything like that? I love digging in the dirt so I'm not opposed to making it a bit of a raised/mounded bed either...
ingrid_vc so. CA zone 9
10 years ago
I have seen bagged soil for azaleas so you could try adding that to your soil instead of regular planting mix. I don't see how it could hurt anything and it just might help.

I grow a rose called Wild Edric which is either a rugosa or a rugosa hybrid in my alkaline soil and the leaves are as green as can be.

Soil pH = 7.7! Should I plant or cancel my order?

Slimy_Okra

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Soil pH = 7.7! Should I plant or cancel my order?

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