I don't know anything about teas and know only two varieties on your list, but if there is a significant nutrient deficiency it should show some kind of symtoms in leafs or new growth.

If you suspect some kind of nutrient deficiency, but symptoms are a bit vague, you could try one of those 100% water soluble fertilizers with all micro nutrients and give it to a couple of your roses for eight weeks or so and see what happens. You need to water often and regularly to make shore all nutrients are available to the plant. If some nutrients tend to bind in your soil this should make a big difference for the plants.

I doubt neutral pH (you mean 7?) is your problem.

I'd guess that the most likely causes of inadequate growth/defoliation are blackspot and/or insufficient water. Blackspot I cannot address, as it's rare enough here that my experience tells me the only roses that blackspot are those that blackspot everywhere there's air.

I assume you've dug down 6 or 8 inches in the soil about a foot out from these roses and tested the dampness of the soil? What else do you know about your soils? Compacted? Organic matter content? Organic matter in the soil acts as a warehouse for nutrients and moisture. Organic mulch placed on the surface will go a long way to making roses happy.

Hi Sherry - Have you ever had your soil tested for Ph level ? My son lived east of Silver Springs and planted azaleas, they did not do well so he had his soil tested and it came back very alkaline, over 7.... he was advised to lower his Ph to abt. 5, since azaleas like more acid soil... actually his soil was also very thin with no organic matter, very sandy, it was on the ridge and it was terrible.....he was advised to incorporate lots of compost and dead leaves and organic stuff into his beds..... sally

Not pH, but dryness related.
I am unsure what chinas want, but I've gotten to think that at least some of them demand well draining, hot soils.
I believe this to the extent that I now plant new chinas in the most drainy places in my garden and haven't lost any.

This idea is supported by roses we saw in the old cemetery in Macon Georgia, one droughty summer. Blooming in the cemetery were small chinas, not terribly healthy, but alive. And they were in the old part of the cemetery in some of the walled areas that delimited family plots. I am surprised that they survived, and it made an impression on me. In point of fact, Old Blush is one of the roses that I find in cemeteries in conditions that are far from pampered or even cared for once a decade.

Berndoodle,

*** I assume you've dug down 6 or 8 inches in the soil about a foot out from these roses and tested the dampness of the soil?

I will dig down and check for dampness. All the roses get the same watering (more this year than last) and lots more rain this summer than last.

*** What else do you know about your soils? Compacted? Organic matter content? Organic matter in the soil acts as a warehouse for nutrients and moisture. Organic mulch...

The original ground is mostly very compacted gray sandy stuff with limestone rocks and strands and chunks of white clay. I dug down to about 15", removed half of it and all the rocks and 90% of the clay, replaced it with bagged topsoil & composted cow manure, pine fines & composted horse manure. In May I mulched with newspaper (long gone), CHM and pine straw.

When I removed Duchesse de Brabant, I was amazed by the thick roots that went pretty much straight down. A couple of them were 2.5 feet longer where they broke, so they're going down into native ground which is yucky. And who knows what THAT pH is! My amended soil was in the range of 6.8 to 7.0, but I haven't checked it recently.

All the roses get the same treatment, but some are reacting differently. Last year in his first summer Mons Tillier was well foliated and wonderful. This year he's huge (6+ x 6) but almost no leaves inspite of more water and MiracleGro in August, September & early October. (Thanks for the suggestion, Taoseeker.) His roots have to be deep down is the crummy stuff by now. On the other hand LeVesuve is in a bed that probably didn't get as much good stuff to balance the awful native stuff as MT did, and it's lush and blooming big (but no where near as tall as MT since he was moved this March.) Anna Olivier is located in or very near the road bed (really crappy stuff almost like hardpan) prepared the same way but she's beautiful and lush.

Saldut, my azaleas grow better in builder's sand than the native soil, but all the builder's sand is gone.

Ann, if it were just water that would be an answer anyway. The last several days I've been watering daily by hand but not heavy with the hose. It's been very dry since summer ended 10 days ago, plus some areas need more mulch. When I check them down at 6" or 8" depth, I'll know if I'm watering enough. Old Blush is surviving but that's about it. She's looks like she should be living in an abandoned cemetery.

Even though my pH near the surface isn't real high (high enough that multiflora-blooded roses don't like it), these roses are supposed to like pH around 6.5 or less, right? So I was wondering if they really hate putting their roots down in the deadzone below. My theory is that for the first year they're loving my amended soil; then after that they're suffering in the native stuff.

Sherry

Hmmm....my Mons. Tillier, Carnation, and Madame Antoine Mari have been full and lush this year (and blooming) despite total neglect. Ditto for Mrs. B. R. Cant. And I mean total neglect. They have, however, received regular (deep) drip irrigation, but nothing more.

One issue may be a nematode issue. I personnaly have not had problems with them, but soil varies dramatically down here from site to site. You have clay though, which should be a benefit. And you have stated that the rootballs seem nice. Nematodes would most likely have left nasty nodules.

The other issue may be that you replaced the native soil initially. According to UCF, native soil should comprise at least 30% of the soil mix, and ideally more. They have found that if soil is ammended too much, or totally, that the root system goes into shock and does not grow well beyond their perfect environment. It is usually best to ammend slightly, and add the goodies on top, where nature draws them downward. The UCF studies are in support of this. THis may be why your Le Vesuve is doing so well. You didn't ammend quite as much where the root system is sitting, so therefore, it has adapted to the site.

Dr. Manners has found that nematodes do not like organics or heavy mulches. Roadsides, foundations, and sidewalks all qualify as heavy mulches, and some roses will do well near these surfaces that do not well out in the field. It is not a guarantee, but may work with roses that are suseptible. Nematodes swim through sand, and they can't swim very well through a sidewalk or road. They also do not care for soils with a significant clay content.

PH is a consideration, but may not be the problem.

Sandy

Well said sandy . I agree with your notes on soil and nematodes .
UF recommends the same - plant in native soil and skip the in ground amendments .

sherry - seems like you are trying too hard to make the soil and ground be something it was never meant to be .
Turn it around --- get the roses to adapt to existing conditions instead of you working so hard on the soil . Supplement with rain water from rain barrels rather than using treated city or well water . Add mulch regularly . Give additional nutrients tailored for roses .

Without a pH soil test , there is no way to know what the soil pH number is . How and where you gather the soil for testing makes a difference in the results too . Call your local Ag Extension Agency and see if they have any rose experts there . Maybe there is a Master Gardener in your county who can guide you on soil testing or growing roses in your area .

Sherry, I would suggest that you might to re-test your soil for pH, and perhaps test the native soil as well. Over time the same factors that influence the original pH of the soil will start to influence amended soil. According to what I have read, 6.8 to 7 is actually the ideal range of pH for roses, so if it is still at that point, you must look to something else for your problem.

High rainfall areas tend to have acid soils, while soils on limestone tend to be alkaline, so you have a conflicting blend of influences at work. It just might be that they work out to neutral, and that would be good.

Sandy Florida soils do have that nematode problem and for that reason many roses need to be grafted onto fortuniana stock. It was my impression (I have no practical experience) that china roses are pretty resistant naturally, and so can be grown on their own roots if you prefer. Most of my knowledge comes from a brief stint of research I did some years ago when my brother and his family built a house in Ocala, and I bought them a rose as a housewarming gift. It was an Old Blush and it is still thriving.

Rosefolly

Thanks all for your concerned responses and good thoughts. I sound like a broken record, I guess, and at this point the soil is what it is. The roses will adapt or depart. Believe it or not, the soil where DdB was was dark and crumbly, so it can't be all bad. Mons Tillier is distressing me, that's all. I prefer Teas to Chinas except for Louis Philippe - oh, and LeVesuve and Jean Bach Sisley. Teas are more graceful to me. Old Blush is a unique historical plant that I am (was) thrilled to have in my garden, but he just doesn't do much.

Well, I'm going to walk out and check on MT's new growth. Had to drive to Tampa today for DH's doctor appt. (A good trip.) Time for refreshment in the garden.

Thanks everyone.

Sherry

Old Blush and Louis Phillipe are wonderful for adding color in the garden, and I detect a lovely subtle rose fragrance wafting on the air. Makes the yard smell nice. True, the flower form isn't "ideal", but they make up for it in landscape color. I would rather have Old Blush than a boring typical landscape plant. Actually, Louis has always been one of my favorites, but I like reds.

I might add that I never have taken the time to worry too much about the PH. I don't find it much of an issue here.

As far as nematodes go, I personally don't feel they are a huge problem from Central Florida northward. Some roses will do better grafted on fortuniana, but they tend to be some of the "weaker" sorts, and I consider those ill adapted to Florida. That doesn't mean I don't grow them....I get my hands on as many as I can, but the chinas do well here own root. Some of the teas do as well.

I feel strongly that you can't give roses a totally "fake" soil environment if you want them to do well. Some of my best growing teas have resulted from my being too tired to ammend the soil, dug a hole,and plopped them in. This was followed by manure, etc., surrounding the rose on the surface. I found camellias react the same way. It takes a year or so for them to amount to much this way, but they grow up strong without expecting too much coddling. The ones where I fussed too much by totally changing soil have never amounted to much.

Something else to think about. Some of the roses may be virused as well. And roses NEED a good soaking of water, sometimes every day, when it is hot out down here. Inadequate water during high heat periods make the plant shut down. We have been extremely dry.

This sure is a learning process.

Sandy

Sherry, I just found that mulch in the south encourages fungus. I don't do mulch anymore. If my winters are that bad, those that will just give up the ghost and in the summer, those that cannot hold enough water, are going to die anyway. After losing a couple hundred, I am just living by the rule that those that make it do and those that don't, well --- the year I lost so many noisettes, I had spent $1400 on mulch and $400 on the labor to put it out. I bought some wit. Not going to mulch heavily again. Say what you will but I have lived in this garden and know that it does better without all that snugging up.