Also, they are own-root bought at chamblees. Except for the DA's, they were bought at chamblees also, but I don't know if they are own root.

Lissa, I'm not very experienced compared to most of the folks here but I garden on alkaline clay. I use Mills Magic Mix. There is a dry form. They also have a liquid form. I use liquid seaweed spray too. According to the company, Mills Mix is "a combination of alfalfa meal, fish meal, steamed bone meal, cottonseed meal, blood meal, activated sludge, and an organic compost activator. NPK analysis is 6-5-1".
I also put down some Bloomkote slow release at the beginning of the season.
I add lots of composted manure and a "sandy loam" soil mixture at planting time. Then top dress with composted manure.
I read that compost and manure are really soil amendments, meant to improve the health of the soil and then fertilizers are just fertilizers.
I guess it's likely frowned upon but I use Miracle Gro Bloom Booster monthly (with the exception of July and August) with the hose end sprayer. I see an immediate difference in the depth of color and "firmness" of my roses.
Mine seem to grow and bloom well.
Susan

Lissa -- The things I love most for fertilizer are nice fresh horse manure, and alfalfa. Both will stimulate roses like crazy. If you don't want to make alfalfa tea (I don't blame you) there's nothing wrong with mulching with alfalfa meal, and watering over it.

In our VERY alkaline conditions, I've had good results with soil sulfur -- so you might try that. But I bet you've already learned that Teas and Chinas will tolerate more alkalinity than many other roses.

Might check over in the Tx forum re. help with caliche.

Teas & Chinas thrive in TX, but the alkaline soils do need improvement.

I'm new to gardening in caliche, too. Main emphasis seems to be, acidify the soil by constantly adding pine bark, oak leaves, sulfur, etc. The soil can have all of the iron, phos., & nitrogen a plant needs, but until the soil is the proper pH, it's unavailable to plants. Horse manure & alfalfa (in moderation) have worked well, too.

I've been digging (chopping out, actually) large planting holes & planting with at least 1/3 pine fines mixed in the replacement soil. A raised bed of improved soil would be even better.

I was recently looking up how to fertilize our blackberries & peaches & was surprised to learn that balanced fertilizers aren't particularly recommended here, as calcareous alkaline soils tend to tie up & accumulate too much phosphorous. The recommendation was for pure ammonium sulfate, to provide nitrogen & acidify the soil enough to make phos., iron, & other nutrients, that are generally in place, available to the plants. You can sure kill a plant fast with too much, though, & long-term, I prefer building real soil, with organics.

Another surprise was that plants can also be deficient in calcium. With all this caliche & limestone, you'd never think so, but the calcium carbonate of caliche isn't a usable form to plants.

So...soil test, replace caliche or build raised beds of improved soil & add organic acidic amendments like pine mulch & oak leaves on a regular basis. I just cautiously threw some sulfur around some plants today. Used to use it a lot on alkaline black gumbo, but this area gets much less rainfall, so I'm trying not to burn up my plants.

Thank you all for your responses! Wonderful info, so just to make sure I understand....I'm slow, you see... Alfalfa is ok in alkaline soil, no one mentioned Epsom salt so I'm assuming it's not used so much, most emphasis on compost. I have a compost pile but I put big branches in it and it's become a "trash pile" also I'm afraid to clean it out because I think something is living in it.
Luxrose: thanks for your informative post. It does make sense that the more pruning that is done, the more fertilizer needed. Maybe that's why I've gotten by without fertilizing...I don't keep up with the pruning either :)
Poorbutroserich: I am going to take a look at the mills magic.
Jerijen: the sulphur is good advice, I will use that as well
Thanks bluegirl: I will check the Texas forum. I checked the soil forum, didn't post just searched, but it was a bit technical.
We do have a couple of horses, if I collect their poo, how long should I let it sit before I can use it. Thanks again!

Jerijen,
I just retread your post and noticed you said fresh horse manure, not aged??

Luxrosa, thank you for such detailed information - something I'll print out and keep ….
Jerijen … so it's OK to use 'fresh' horse manure? Can you give me an idea if 'fresh' means a few months old or less than that? I have a riding school near me and they have stables - one of my friends said that they're happy to give away manure to anyone who's prepared to come and collect it but I don't have anywhere to store it so haven't bothered. If fresh means 'really fresh' I could go and bag some and put it around my roses as a mulch - or would it be too smelly?

Cheers
Tricia

Number one step in determining fertilization is a soil and water test. Number two is considering the requirements of the plants grown. Number three is considering growing and cultivation techniques and whether material (i.e. nutrients) is removed from the garden's / field's ecosystem. Missing the above, fertilization is a blind hit-and-miss practice.

Just a comment regarding the numbers in fertilizers. 5-5-5 is exactly the same as 20-20-20 with regards to the primary macronutrient balance the only real difference being how much one needs to apply to supply a particular quantity of a required macronutrient to the soil. Whether and how much of this macronutrient will be made available to the plant and how fast, will depend on the source of the nutrient, the delivery method, the fertilizer's mechanical properties, the weather, irrigation, and of course the soil properties. Also, there are secondary macronutrients like Magnesium, Calcium and Sulphur and a host of micronutrients that might need to be provided or might need NOT to be provided. In this respect two composite 20-20-20s may be very different between them.
Nik

That's good advice, nikthegreek. How often would you recommend soil and water testing, once a year? Every two? I did forget to mention that I'm on a well and we have "hard" water. We also have a water softener, but the roses get watered with unsoftened water.
Tricia, I have always heard that fresh horse manure will burn a plant, but jerijen did say "fresh".
Also, jerijen, do you use compost and alfalfa just in the spring or throughout the growing season?
Do roses prefer a balanced fertilizer or an unbalanced? Or will they est anything, lol.
Thanks, Lissa

There's no need to perform a test more than once in a few years since we are not talking about commercial growing here. Hard water makes things trickier, that's why having an idea about the soil / water relationship is recommended. Never use water from Na based water softeners for irrigation. The only water 'softening' method recommended for irrigation is reverse osmosis. A balanced fertilizer is only generally good for pots or the rare situations were the soil leaches nutrients very fast (i.e. extremely sandy soil). Commercial growers growing in soil do not use balanced fertilzers. Once you have done your tests you will have a fair idea about the kind of fertilization to use (or an expert can help you with that). Having said all this, it is my belief that in a general gardening situation where not much material is removed from the ecosystem and where pH is in an acceptable range for the particular plants, and there exist no extreme conditions regarding the soil properties or content, Nitrogen is generally what tends to go amiss and thus must be supplied.
Nik

lisa - Hello, there is already great advice. I live in Texas, zone 9 (Pearland) and have similar variety like you. I would love to grow B.R Cant but don't have the space. Here is what I did. My beds are raised to start with. Initially I would mulch every year but for the past couple of years I have been adding goat/sheep/chicken manure. This yr did compost. No chemicals regime here too..Definitely water as much as you can esp in the hotter months. Remove the spent blooms, it would be a daunting task to remove spent blooms from Dutchess De Brabant or Ducher (I leave them alone) but certainly remove the DA spent blooms. They look so nasty when dried out and do not fall off the plant.
The David Austins are very beautiful but come with consequences.. Thripps, very less lifetime for the blooms. I doubt I will buy any more DA's!

Good luck.. Do post some pictures when you get a chance.

Nik's posts are good. Do get a soil test and you can bring the result here. Call your county agent or cooperative extension service.

I agree with Nik as well. Since I have a small farm and have done multiple soil tests to maintain pastures I've got good working knowledge of the make up of my soil. Every soil test I've ever had done here comes back "very high" in phosphorus and "high" in potassium.

It is actually unusual for soil that has not been used for agriculture to be deficient in phosphorous. Nitrogen moves through the soil and can deplete rapidly, but phosphorus stays put. Too much phosphorus can be damaging to plants. "According to the University of South Florida IFAS Extension, phosphorus will accumulate to toxic levels when applied as often as nitrogen and potassium." This means that continued use of a "balanced" fertilizer (like a 5-5-5) can lead to over accumulation of P!

I have horses and the main thing I do for my roses is apply compost of horse manure/stall leavings a few times a year. I have used horse manure of any age--well composted, somewhat composted, straight off the pitch fork from cleaning stalls--with only good results. I do keep it from actually touching the canes at the base of the plant.

Since I'm trying to be aware of my already good phosphorus levels, and the compost is adding more NPK plus a host of other goodies for the soil the only thing I add is nitrogen by way of alfalfa pellets because we know that's what depletes the most rapidly.

I also garden in what's normally heavy compacted clay, but with the generous compost amendments it's pretty wonderful stuff. I'm a feed the soil not the plant type gardener. Personally, I think overall soil health which makes the nutrients *available* is as important as what nutrients are there in what quantities.

Here is a link that might be useful: ARS article on P

This post was edited by subk3 on Wed, Jun 11, 14 at 14:39

I use Mills Magic Mix and their liquid alternatively. It is just the greatest . It is used all over the country and many rose associations buy it in bulk. Go to the Beaty Fertilzer web site, or Mills Magic Mix.

Thank you for your post, nik and michaelg. I plan on soil/water testing and will go from there. Wonderful link subk3, I bookmarked it. And I plan on having my 16 yo ds collect some horse poo from the pastures, we don't have stalls. I'm sure he will be thrilled. ;). Good to know that you've used it fresh without harm.
Thanks everyone for your input!
Ibheri: hello fellow Texan! I thought the soils around Houston were acidic, from all the pine needles. I just love going to Houston and seeing all the beautiful landscaping. I find Mrs. BR Cant just as daunting to deadhead as dutchess Brabant. I used to have ducher, but had him (him?) in a spot that was too small and accidentally killed him by over pruning. He just never recovered. I probably won't plant anymore David Austin's either! But I am currently loving Anne bolyne, she is doing very well for me right now! I don't have a clue how to post picture....maybe I'll get one of my teenagers to help me!