A rose class name that I sometimes hear mispronounced is Boursault. It's boor-SU. (Think Sault Ste. Marie -- the city on both sides of the Michigan-Ontario border.)

I've got a grip on Tea and China. LOL
I think that Ducher is probably "dooshay", but I find myself saying "doocher". I was told that Marie Van Houtte is Marie Van "wheat".
Frankly, I like to pronounce the Buck roses.

Sammy

Actually, I think nwa-zette' is correct.

I could pronounce Damask either way but usually say dam'-ask.

I avoid saying Bourbon in a very loud voice because I am unsure of myself on that one. It is more comfortable for me to say ber'-bon.

And I did not know about boor-su'. Good to know.

There used to be ads on this site for a book on pronouncing French rose names. If it is still in print, it might be an excellent investment.

Rosefolly

Sammy, If 'Marie van Houtte' is pronounced the same as that terrific Canadian coffee company, then it's pronounced van HOOT.

I've been told it's van HOOT.

Here's a partial clue to pronouncing French rose names.

If the last letter of the name is a consonant, (say, a "t" or an "m", it's usually not pronounced. So, 'Maman Cochet' is "Ma-MA Koshay."
But if there's a vowel at the end, the consonant before it is pronounced, but the vowel is silent. So, "Reve" is "Rev".

Jeri
(who used to work for a French-speaking woman)

I don't know French at all, and asked our French teacher at school. However, there could be quite a stretch between what she said and what I heard. French has many sounds that don't have an equivalent to the English, and the throat sounds to me may have sounded like wheat. I accept the HOOt, it makes more sense.

She also told me that Crepuscule is twilight, and Clair Matin is dawn (clear morning). I was so fascinated that I put them across from each other on an arbor. Sadly, Clair Matin is not a tall grower.

Sammy

Marie van Houte is pronounced vanoot, the 'h' is not pronounced in French. Borsault is bor soh (long O, 'au' in French is pronounced as a long 'O.' I have no idea how to pronounce some of the German names, however, as I did not have German in school.

Thanks for the replies. Rosefolly, I remember that book too, I'll have to check it out. I'd like to at least pronounce the roses I have. I'm always self concious when I say "Madame Issac Pereire" since I never know what's correct.

Eric

I flunked French grammar but got A's in pronounciation -- who knew I'd need it for roses. My favorite rose mispronunciation is Hippolyte (in Greek mythology, the Amazonian queen who was the daughter of Ares etc.) I've eavesdropped on several folks who've referred to her as HIP-oh-light when she would pronounce it Hip-POL-uh-tuh.

But I also know that what matters in the long run is not what you call the rose, but how much you care for it.

Katie

jbfoodie: Van Houtte is not French, it's Germanic -- in this case Dutch/Belgian ('van'/'von' is never French). The rose 'Marie van Houtte' was named to honor the memory of a young woman who died shortly after her marriage to the prominent Belgian horticulturist, Louis van Houtte.

I teach Spanish, and asked the question at lunch where we had Spanish, French, and German represented. Sooooo, how do you pronounce it?

The biggest challenge to me was Gruss an Aachen. I found the source, and learned the pronunciation. I hate to take a stab at my memory without looking at Wikepedia.

How do you pronouonce Jaune Desprez?

Sammy

How simply lovely to say nwa-zet
I'm glad to meet you, and have you met
my dear friend Dam-ask and Marie van Hoot,
Doo-shay, gal-icka and boor-sue too.

But eyes glaze over when aloud they're said,
So I say them softly and just in my head.

Well, at least I'll say them correctly in my head now.

Bravo Duchesse!!!

It's Grease ahn Ahken, isn't it Sammy? (Grace of Aachen).

And Zhawn Des-PRAY

Katie

Gruss (with an umlaut) means greetings. The u is a combination of u and a long e - similar to the sound that we make when something is yucky - ewwww!

Love Gean's little poem.

Sometimes, when I try to say a French name correctly, I wonder if it wouldn't just be better to say it with an unapologetic American accent. No matter how hard I try, my pronunciation is still way off!
Anita

My mother tongue is Swedish, a small language with only 9 million speakers. So like others in my generation I had to learn English, German and French in school but younger generation Swedes learn only English and one other language, most often Spanish nowadays.

A common mistake is the pronunciation of "v" in the Germanic languages Dutch, Flemish, Afrikaans and German. It's pronounced "F" in Veilchenblau, van Huyssum, Mevrouw Nathalie Nypels, von Scharnhorst to mention some of my own roses. But in loanwords it is pronounced "V" as in English, e.g. Kronprinzessin Viktoria von Preussen.

BTW and OT, the different spellings of the title of princess seems to be tricky for Americans: German Prinzessin, Dutch prinses, Danish prinsesse, French princesse, Swedish prinsessa.

Gruss means greeting and does not take an umlaut in the singular but the plural Grüsse does. Even Peter Beales makes this mistake.

One Hippolyte was an Amazonian queen in Greek mythology, another Hippolyte was Phaedra's stepson in Racine's play Phèdre from 1677. The name is Greek in both cases, of course, but because the rose is French, I think it is more logical to pronounce Hippolyte in French, with a mute initial H. It is my guess that Phèdre was more immediately present to Parmentier than the Amazonian queen. Racine is very important to the French, much like Shakespeare to the English.

Marianne in Sweden

Well, there ya go! I said I could not pronounce German words. Thanks for the correction. I always thought it was spelled van Houte, but now see the double t. So is it van hoot or some other variation?

Gean! That's WONDERFUL!

Jeri

The book is
How to Pronounce French Rose Names by Diana Bellucci. It has a section on German names but doesnt include Van Houtte. My linguistically enabled SO says it is probably Von How tee but he says ou is not a usual Dutch dipthong. In German all letters are pronounced but how they are pronounced is another thing.
Bellucci says Hippolyte is ee po leet...mercy
And one of the things I love about the English is their tendency to make up their own pronunciation of something and use it .

patricia-who witlessly took Spanish but has never met anyone who speaks the sort of Spanish she was taught.

This is a great thread. I have a lovely tea called General Schablikine. Help me say it. Thanks.

My linguistically enabled SO says it is probably Von How tee but he says ou is not a usual Dutch dipthong.

*** I seem to recall it was a Belgian name. A famiy of Belgian nurserymen . . .

Jeri

Your SO is probably right about the diphtong, compare Dutch zout (salt) which rhymes with scout.

There is no Belgian language. Roughly 60% of the population of Belgium speak Dutch, a dialect popularly called Vlaams (Flemish) but it is quite similar to Netherlands Dutch. 40% speak French.

I think it's reasonable to pronounce Marie van Houtte as if it were French. Ducher probably did.

Sure it is...I think...Ik houd van deze roos...(Someone who knows Dutch please correct my sentence!!)

I believe the General is Shah-blee-kee'-nuh, with the last vowel unstressed, what's called a 'schwah' in English.

This is a fun topic. My German pronunciation's in pretty good order, and I can roll 'Variegata di Bologna' off my tongue in great style; but I could use help with the French and the Dutch pronunciation.

Melissa

I looked up the reference in Help Me Find, and found out that the rose Marie, is named after Mlle. Marie Van Houtte of Ghent Belgium. Ducher named it.

I cannot find out anything about Marie. Wikepedia showed basically nothing except for the rose. I wonder if she was more than a pretty young girl. I was sort of hoping for a touchy feely story.

Sammy

Thanks Melissa; I had it right! And I don't know German at all.
Mary

This thread is hysterical from the perspective of a Detroit native who has spent her adult life in Canada where the French-English language wars rage on, centuries after 1066. I studied Latin and French in highschool and at university, was taught French at the latter by a German native and a Japanese native! Also studied Anglo- Saxon (they came from Holland/Friesland I believe),surely a dead language and yet much alive in our daily speak. It is said you could strip out all the Latin (ie French) based words in English and still be able to talk coherently. In North America, I think Marie Vanoot is close enough.

I just remember hearing David Stone pronounce Crepescule (kray-pes-cule) and I don't care if that is correct, but that's the way I say it now.

My husband, who grew up speaking Polish, cringes every time I mention the Koskiscko Bridge. Too bad there aren't any Polish named roses, he could tell me how to pronounce them.

I have this one down pat as it's part of the vernacular in these parts: nock - out

I still need to know how to pronounce Marie Van Houtte.

In searching I found out that in Europe or England, they say that this rose and William R. Smith are the same.

I have both and am trying to compare. One is in the front and one is in the back.

Interesting.

Sammy

Not so fast, Your Grace --

Is that NOCK-out or nock-OUT?

Precision counts around here, and when it comes to those particular roses, I (for one) have a definite preference on syllabic emphasis.

Windeaux, I appreciate your need for syllabic distinction, but am sorry to tell you that there is no syllabic emphasis on either syllable.

The lack of emphasis, monotone in both parts, reflects the monotone nature - I mean monotony - of the bush itself.

Yours in the service of grammatic excellence,

Gean

ps, please know that there is no pretension to royalty in your humble poster, except as the proud owner of the royal tea rose, Duchesse De Brabant.

Sorry to revive an old thread....

A simple way of finding the correct pronunciation is checking it with a French online dictionary such as the Larousse.

Bourbon

Noisette (one of the meanings of noisette is hazelnut, it has nothing to do with the class though!)

Jaune des prèz Jaune means yellow....

...I sometimes think it sounds a bit silly if you try to mimic a French accent when you're not very good at it, so I stick with anglicized versions mostly, but depends on the name of the rose... especially with a name like 'Blush Noisette' as Blush is English I will say Noyz-ette, not Nwa-zette, however if the rose was named 'Blanc Noisette', I would use the French..

Bourbon - Boor bonn

Jaune des prez = rather oddly I would say 'desspray' not 'daypray'... whereas, we call the rose 'Desprez a Fleur Jaune' here, and I would stick with the French totally... this contradiction doesn't make any sense to me at all....but I'm past caring about being too fancy about it...

'Gros Choux d'Hollande' = Grow Shoo d'olland...

As a person whose foreign language choice to study was Latin, I tend to pronounce things from that perspective. And when someone corrects me with a Spanish or French or Italian pronunciation, I like to remind them that those three (and a few other) languages evolved from mispronouncing Latin, so........

;-)

~Christopher

P.S. Originally, the word "vulgar" referred to "common" to differentiate from "sophisticated" or "proper", and the old spoken variants of "vulgar Latin" became the bases of the languages which evolved from Latin. This is why when seeing Latin names for plants, one may see "vulgaris", such as with Thymus vulgaris. It didn't mean "vulgar" in the present connotation -- just that it was the common form found in gardens, and kitchens.

So when my Latin-leaning pronunciations deviate from Italian, French, or Spanish versions, I also rather tongue-in-cheek may say I don't defer to the vulgar ways of saying words.

;-)

True, the pronunciation has been inferred based upon poetry. And also true is that pronunciation evolves. I remember when I was living in Buffalo, NY for a few years I asked someone why the city was named that, considering that "buffalo" (better known as "bison") weren't known to have lived there, as far as I remember reading. I was told that it arose as a mispronunciation of Beau Fleuve, a French term describing the Niagara river. Bringing it back to roses, if any of you read the Australian book on Tea Roses, there was an interesting bit about how Australians morphed 'Comtesse de Labarthe' into 'Countess Bertha'.

As far as Latin pronunciation goes, I defer to something a few of my teachers/professors often said -- Latin doesn't "waste" letters by keeping them silent, in most if not all cases. I must say that there are many words I've often typed and read but rarely spoken, being as those words are often used among those who share some of my specific interests and whom I know almost entirely via the internet.

:-)

~Christopher

Fascinating thread. I've always said "Marie Van Hoot", but I'll know to eliminate the aitch from now on.

I believe the lovely red tea is General Shab-LEE-kin. I don't know about a fourth syllable - the final "e" is a Francization (if there is such a word), I think, and wouldn't have been pronounced in the original Russian.

The one that bugs me is "The Alnwick Rose." I liked the sound of alln-wick, especially since I bought three of them. Then I found out it's pronounced "Annick." I just call them "Annies" now.

Is "Buccleigh" pronounced "Buckley"?

Is "Panachee" pronounced "panaSHAY"?

Curious minds want to know.

Sorry, Bob- "noisette" means hazelnut, but 'Noisette' means either Louis or Phillippe Noisette, and it is not at all clear that the proper name was pronounced in the way the hazelnut is pronounced in modern French. Just as with English, French pronunciation rules have changed quite a bit over the years, and is still changing. And then there's the added complication of regional accents- ACK!

Until my time machine recharges, I can't pop back to ask Louis or Phillippe Noisette how they pronounced their last name, but I can tell you that Phillippe Noisette's descendants pronounce the name Noise-ETTE, and that's how I pronounce the rose class also.

It's an open question as to how 'Bourbon' was pronounced back in the day. Regardless, I'd feel silly saying Boor-BON whether speaking of roses or whiskey.

Virginia

According to Odile Masquelier, writing in the Charleston Noisette Roses book, the surname Noisette does not come from noisette (hazelnut) but from the older extinct word noiseux which means noisy (and quarrelsome according to french wiktionary).

Regardless, there's every chance that the two brothers pronounced their common surname differently to fit with their environment, living an ocean apart... That's very common nowdays with families split like this so why not. Now the all important question (lol lol) did the Rose class take its name in honour of Louis or Philippe?

In my view, bourbon the whiskey should be pronounced as you pronounce it in the States, but Bourbon the rose class might better be pronounced as the French pronounce it as it is a term originating in France.

For Sylvia, the pronunciation of Buccleugh, also spelled Buccleuch: http://sv.forvo.com/word/buccleuch/#en

..as we're on this subject, can anyone tell me please how the rose 'Jeanne Lajoie' is pronounced where you are? I see it mentioned a lot. I would say Jean La Jhwa for this one, Jean as in English [I don't think I would say Jhee-ann] but the rest in French, - rather peculiar I know - but wonder if others say Jean La Joy...? it's not a rose that's available over here as far as I know...

Actually noisette has several meaning, Virginia.

Funny how pronunciations stirs some funny emotions!

What shall I say, vive la difference! (with a gallic/a shrug, svp!)

Marlorena, I pronounce Jeanne, à la française, in my neck of the woods. Comme ça

aah Bob, I see, more like Zhunn....thank you...

In the long run, it doesn't matter how one pronounces the name. As long as we love the rose, who cares if it's Jeanne or Joan.....

Bob, my comment about Noisette being a proper name was partially prompted by some old references where the writer actually tried to say the class was so called because of its hazelnut-shaped buds. I'm not saying you would ever make that mistake, but since I can pull up GW threads using Google, I guess people who don't know what a Noisette is could also.

Nik, that's interesting that the family name could mean 'noisy'. The only member of the family I've met had a fairly loud voice. An extremely nice person with a nice voice, but it did carry... And a good gardener, of course...

Virginia

Thanks for the precision, I got the nuance now!

Like, any human, I make mistakes, and many of them. Thankfully I learn from them, from time to time :-)

I put a disclaimer, after my translation....

Thanks Marlorena, I've been wondering too.

My Grandparents came from Quebec and only spoke French. My Mom didn't speak any English until she got into school when my Grandfather moved to Detroit for work. So I heard French spoken all my life. I still have a terrible time pronouncing many of the names and I do often use the English pronunciations. Personally I don't think it matters as long as everyone knows what you're taking about. And as for the German...HA! Fageddaboutit!

This was started Sept 4, 2009. That is really weird. It has been more than 6 years. I wish so many of the posters would return. Little by little people drift away. New blood is great, but I hate the loss of friends whose posts I used to enjoy.

As for me and my family we will call our roses by their color and forget the names. Makes life a lot easier...... lol Thus we have Pink roses, Yellow rose, not so yellow rose, very very yellow rose.... lol In other words, enjoy life and not the PC ness that is going around.... Nuff Said?