Tzatziki used to be tricky for me. For years I just pronounced it by dropping the first t. I'm not sure it's right, but now I pronounce it as if the "tz" is the same as "zza" in "pizza." Something like "zza-zzee-kee." My SIL was married to a Greek guy for years and still pronounces it "tuh-zee-kee." However you say it, I do love to eat it!

One you hear mispronounced often is bruschetta with the "ch" pronounced as "k."

According to Google the k sound in bruschetta is American and the sh is British, but I only heard sh until the last 10 years or so. The Italian pronunciation they have on audio clip has the k sound, a bit of roll on the r, and the emphasis on the first syllable. I wouldn't get too twisted over which is "right". It's like whether or not to pronounce an L in almondine. Be it English or French? Continental or American?

Actually, plllog, I think I did get a bit twisted. What I meant was I think of the "sh" sound for bruschetta as an incorrect pronunciation. The "ch" is a hard "k" in Italian, but I agree about being "right." :-)

Oh! That just brought to mind the unfortunate fate of French words in America. I pronounce “au poivre” as I was taught in college French class, but it's not how chefs say it!

Booberry, I just realized, there's a whole fistful of menus in tone languages that I don't even try to pronounce. I will say “fuh” (pho) along with all the Americans, but i know it's wrong. Here's a good video for anyone wanting to try to get it right. I've tried. I can do it with the video. Only. Especially the “impressive” Saigon style with the glottal stop. I want to say it right—it’s good eating.

ETA—the link disppeared! The pho video: https://youtu.be/J5uNyrGC3EE

I had a waitress correct me when I said "bruschetta" correctly, with a hard c. Just as in "spaghetti," the "h" is there to tell you the "c" or "g" is hard. It separates the "c" and "g" from the "e" that would have a soft "c" or "g" before it.

The English love to mispronounce foreign words and try to Anglicize them instead, which I find incredibly arrogant and just wrong.

I have trouble pronouncing Moussaka, as I am never sure which syllable has the accent. I mention this because it is my favorite dish that I have trouble pronouncing. I'm frequently unsure how to pronounce Greek names, as I only had one week of Greek language class (before the teacher quit - she was nine months pregnant at the beginning of class), and so I did not get much past the alphabet, although that was a help.

In my French adult conversation class at City College in San Francisco, the first thing we learned was how to order in restaurants, and so I became very familiar with a lot of food names. I had the opposite experience in German class, and so when I bought a German cookbook, I had to look up a lot of words.

I am very good at pronouncing Italian and Spanish, but they are easy and follow distinct rules, as Cloudy mentioned. I've also learned quite a few Portuguese food names, but I cannot do much else in Portuguese except order food.

Baingan Bharta reminded me of one of my favorite teatime treats, Barmbrack. I can't pronounce it because I can never remember how to spell it. When I first had it in Wales, it sounded like Bramback to me and I've never been able to remember how to spell or say it since.

https://www.seasonsandsuppers.ca/irish-barmbrack-bread-with-honey-butter/

onomatopoeia nut butter cookies

I can't even find definitive info for moussaka. Most are second syllable and I think that's likely Greek, from the Middle East more third syllable, borrowed into American sometimes first syllable. According to a couple sources (though they may all harken back to OED), the word came to Greek from Turkish, which got it from Arabic, where it originally meant “chilled”. Lebanese moussaka (Really good) is more like a stew, not a layered casserole.

I put the accent on the last syllable for moussaka. I think the accent on the second syllable is the Anglicized version.

I've not had Lebanese moussaka, but I'm sure I would like it. I love all the eggplant dishes I've had so far, but the Italian and Greek versions are my favorites so far.

It bothers me when people say "Parmezhan" as if they are speaking French, which is okay if they are French, but there is no "zh" sound in Italian. Anyone in the food industry should know how to pronounce Parmesan. The "S" sounds like the "Z" in English - not the "zh" in French. Of course one can always say "Parmigiano" instead, but that has more syllables. I hear Parmesan mispronounced on TV a lot. Bridget on ATK pronounces it correctly but Julia Davison never does.

I won't order a gyro sandwich because I'm not sure how to pronounce it. I don't really like lamb that much anyway, unless it has been ground. I'm not sure why that is. I will eat lamb kabobs, however.

Well I can neither spell nor pronounce that lemon garlic soup....av..... so I'll stop there.
I have a friend who famously pronounces quiche with a short "i". I remember going to lunch with a group and as we went around the table with our order, saying "I'll have the mushroom quiche", and another wanted the spinach quiche etc.....and she ended with wanting the broccoli qu i sh. Everyone just exchanged eye rolls!
I often get corrected when I say "brusKetta"....as when I say "Don Jo vanni"

Lars you have made me laugh. Your comments about arrogant English made me think of pots and kettles......

The French don't pronounce parmesan as you write above at all, most Americans are unable to speak French with a correct accent.....and as an arrogant Brit, I'm going to say that you Americans mangle the English language from start to finish, especially accents that add syllables to words that just aren't there.

It doesn't really matter as long as you're understood!

Alumminium, m'dear. :)

I can pronounce French, but certainly not with a correct accent, but I speak the American language, which we tend to call "English" as a nod to its origins, not because we think it has anything to do with what the queen of England speaks. :) I daresay most Americans know what "frock" means, but I don't know anyone who would use it in normal conversation (though maybe the queen doesn't either?). I know what a vegetable marrow is, but most Americans would be stymied. Certainly there are a lot of raised eyebrows when British people talk about eating rocket, especially here in aerospace country. :) What I have noticed, however, on unscripted TV shows, is that English people are using more and more American terms, and Australians are beginning to sound like Americans with cute accents. :)

Linda, https://youtu.be/HhPibeoMSmY for various speakers saying, "Avgolemono". Once you hear it it's not that hard, and if you know how to say it, you can spell it.

Lars, the zh in parm comes from a shortening and smooshing of parmigiano. It's the spelling it "parmesan" that's wrong for the way they say it, rather than vice versa. I don't think that's so bad. Most Americans can't even hear the geminates, let alone pronounce them without sounding stiff, so it's not like the Italian is going to be right, anyway. :D

Dave, Onomatopoeia is one of my favorite words to say! There are onomatopoeia cookies?

All of this reminds me of a story a friend told. They were in Paris with another couple. The husband of the other couple said he spoke French and, therefore, would do all of the ordering for the group. My friend said even he could tell that the guy placing the order was mangling the words. Finally the waitress in a very British accent said, “oh for god’s sake, speak English!”

Linda, https://youtu.be/HhPibeoMSmY for various speakers saying, "Avgolemono". Once you hear it it's not that hard, and if you know how to say it, you can spell it.

There’s another one. I pronounce it like the third and last speakers. Two or three times - and then I say “lemon-chicken soup.” But Linda I’m more concerned about your garlic than your pronunciation. 😂😂🤣

I often get corrected when I say "brusKetta"....

Me too. Franco, owner of Dolce Vita in Boston’s North End will make quite a production of correcting you if you order it with a zh, but take his lesson to any other Italian restaurant and chances are they’ll have no idea what you’re asking for.

I looked up moussaka as that one trips me up. I’ve found several sources that seem to support that if you want to say it in Greek, not only does the weight go on the last syllable, but it gets an S at the end. See about 2:30

https://youtu.be/dhrIenlnZX0

Just kinda skipping around this thread. The pho video made me laugh because if you pronounce it authentically someone’s bound to look down their nose at you for upspeaking!

I’m of the mindset not to overthink these things. Unless you’re a native speaker you run a far greater risk of sounding pretentious by putting on an affected accent and swapping over languages for a word or two, than you do sounding ignorant by using the locally accepted pronunciation.

FOAS, DD and I jokingly argue about the correct pronunciation of pho all the time! I pronounce it as if it were a question. She pronounces it like a statement, telling me that no way in the world is going to going to do the up tone at the end.

Either way is better than foe I guess! I can only think of one time I’ve ordered it and it was long before I knew it wasn’t foe. Oops!

I can't think of any dishes, I just wanted to chime in that my ex-DH was from Quebec City. We'd often holiday in Montreal which can be bi-lingual if they want.

Anytime I'd say bonjour or merci, the clerk always answered me in English! LOL That shows the extent of my butchering of their language. When we visited Quebec City, which is all French, I'd keep my mouth shut the whole time, and not understand a word anyone was saying.

LOL, Jasdip, that was like me in Mexico. Elery did all the talking, I only figured out how to say various colors, please and thank you and "where is the bathroom". (grin) I tried but it was clear that no one understood me at all. Finally I gave up and spoke English, and everyone appeared to know what I was asking for, although I do think it is polite to at least try to learn some of the language of a country you are visiting, they should not have to change for me. I do remember one small boy on the bridge going back to the US from Neuvo Progresso, showing me the white horse by the water. Oddly enough, I completely understood that, although that's all I understood from his long conversation with Elery. He was begging on the bridge, of course, and I gave him five dollars just because he was so darned cute. Well, that and in very broken English he referred to me as "pretty lady". Yeah, he was good, LOL.

LindaC, I don't even TRY to pronounce that soup, and fortunately, I don't like it anyway, so there is no fear of me ever ordering it in a restaurant.

Another problem word is crepe. People here pronounce it like "drape", but in French class (about a million years ago) I was told that the middle vowels were an "eh", so more like Crehp. I have been corrected many times by those who pronounce it "crape". Because there are no restaurants here that serve a "crape" or a "crehp", the only argument I have is from the Grandchildren who want them filled with nutella for breakfast. I also learned that those little cakes are "petit fwah" and not "petit four" but those seem to be out of fashion right now and so are not an issue either.

And my brother still pronounces gnocchi "guh notch ee"!

Annie

Oh, I just remembered. Poutine (fries, gravy and cheese curds) is more and more popular with even fast foods getting in on it. Harvey's, etc.

People here always say Pooteen, the correct way is Putsin. ti is sounded as ts.

Even though I know how to pronounce a reasonable version of avgolemono, I'm getting so old my brain is acting like a toddlers'. My brother used to get stuck on the first syllable of my name and just repeat it over and over again like a broken record. He used to call me Lo, Lo, Lo, Lo, Lowrey but eventually figured out that wasn't going to work so he shortened it to Lolo. That was my family nickname all my life, eventually shortened to Lo.

One of my favorite mezze platters would be tabouleh, baba ganouj, hommous, and tsatziki . . . with avoglomono soup on the side . . . (She backs away slowly watching the thread explode . . . . :)

Maybe I will serve it at my next Channukah party . . .

All of your posts are so interesting! Some of this is very dependent on where you live. We have a large vietnamese population, and pho is common, cheap take out food. Any attempt at any of the correct regional pronunciations is usually welcomed. But I'm pretty hopeless with tone languages. I can do words and phrases from click languages with practice, and simple one word tones, such as rising or falling, but not the melodic ones on a single syllable. OTOH, English learners who speak tone languages pick up our intonation patterns really easily, which makes them sound much more fluent than they really are, and a lot of others have trouble hearing the intonation, let alone learning it.

With a very large, very mixed population here, just about anything has two or five accepted pronunciations. I’m kind of stunned that servers who aren't natives of the language being attempted are correcting restaurant patrons! Even the native speakers who do so, here, are trying to teach rather than correct, per se, not trying to be rude. Anything that conforms with the spelling, or the way a lot of people say it, or an honest attempt at the way it’s said in its native country, is accepted. It's the hearty buffoon lack of trying that comes off as disrespect that puts people’s backs up, even if it’s born of embarrassment over being inadequate to the task. Give it your best shot. Don't act like the language of your food is inferior. That's simple enough. :D

I keep thinking of Alex Trebek while reading this thread. He obviously put a lot of effort into pronouncing things correctly. On the one hand I applaud that, but personally I often found it sounded silly.

Is anyone else totally confused now about all pronunciations??

I'm so glad people brought up Greek food! One of my favorites. There's a little Greek cafe not to far from work, and they have sign hanging that reads "Giro, rhymes with hero." So there you go! I've also heard different pronunciations for mousaka. Accent on the second syllable is what I've always done (its one of my favorites too!)

We also have an Ethiopian restaurant right next store to work. I always slaughter the names of food, but they are very patient with me!

By the way, I was out picking up lunch at an Italian cafe and a woman in there slaughtered "tiramisu." She pronounced it "terree - meeso"

Plllog, you can do click languages! There is only one explanation. You're ex-CIA.

I love that thought, plllog is CIA or ex-CIA! She’s passing false information in all that stuff she bakes. I listen to a podcast, Lexicon Valley, that seems to often have episodes that talk about click languages.

I had a neighbor who told this story on herself. She was young, but old enough to drink. She wanted something different, so she ordered the dairy-querry (daiquiri) that was being featured on the table tent card.

Just a lapsed linguist and former EFL teacher. Click languages are from southern Africa, Khoisan and Bantu mostly. The clicks themselves aren't hard to learn, but they're consonants and blending them with vowels so it sounds like words is a lot harder. I can practice a word or phrase and credibly repeat it, but it doesn't come naturally. ;) I can, however, do the double L in Welsh. I love Welsh, and used to be able to speak a little of it. Now I can order a cup of tea, but not much more. No disinformation in my baking, though Mrs Maccabaeus wrote in the dough portions of the Torah and fried them so they shimmered...

Islay, I'm glad to hear that the French pronounce Parmesan the same way that Italians do. I thought that when Americans add the "zh" sound, they are trying to make it sound French (as "zh" is a common sound in French), but perhaps they are just mangling words, as you said. What bothers me about the British is that they seem to deliberately mispronounce foreign words, or make little to no effort to pronounce them as they are in their original language. To me, this is disrespectful to the original language. I notice this mainly when watching British news shows and documentaries. One word that bothers me is the name "Jacques" because that is my grandmother's maiden name. When my family and I pronounce it, it rhymes with "chaque" but I hear British people (and Americans) pronounce it as if it rhymes with "jock." Julia Child at least pronounces it correctly.

I never tell anyone in person that they are mispronouncing words unless they first tell me that I am mispronouncing something, and I've been told that I mispronounce Jacques. I do appreciate it when Italians correct me when I'm speaking Italian to them because it shows that they care and that they think I am capable of learning. I've not had that experience with French outside of a classroom.

I know my French pronunciation is terrible, but at least I can read and write French, although I do have trouble understanding spoken French - partly because the words seem to run together and so many letters in written French are not pronounced. Once they are written out, I can understand them. I do not have any current plans to visit France, and so I am not especially motivated to spend time trying to improve my French pronunciation. I would rather learn Portuguese, but I would need to find a class for that. I find Portuguese difficult to pronounce because it does not have consistent pronunciation rules. Therefore it is not always possible to know how to pronounce something from seeing it written.

I do want to go back to Italy and also visit Germany, Switzerland, and Austria, as well as Greece. I especially like Greek cuisine, but I would probably have trouble there since I do not speak Greek. German is my second language, and so I would have no problem in German speaking countries, although I would need to learn the latest slang. If I do go to a French speaking country, it would probably be in the Caribbean. I could probably make myself understood there.

Does “second language” mean second language you learned or second to your primary? I’ll go with the latter and say German is my second language as well. I can’t speak it too well off the cuff but it comes back very quickly when I go there. It’s very disappointing though to walk into a business and address them in German and they reply in English!

Lars, I often hear Americans pronounce a word like Jacques with a long a sound when it is a short a as in Jack.

I can do British and French, Italian is passable but anything oriental...don't ask.....or German I mangle a treat.....Spanish....I can manage hola.......

I used to say moussaKAH because I made Craig Claiborne's recipe from the New York Times Cookbook, and he starts out by telling you it's moussaKAH. My kids grew up saying it that way. But for some reason it's begun to sound kind of awkward and now I say mousSAHka. Strange.

Islay, most Americans do mispronounce Jacques, and it bothers me when they try to make me pronounce it the way they do, as they think they are more correct than I am, even though it is a family name for me.

I can’t offhand recall anyone saying Jacques any differently than Pepin does at the beginning of this video, so I’d take issue with “most Americans” mispronouncing it.

Now if you’re saying THAT’S incorrect, I’d argue that it’s the correct American pronunciation. My wife is Wendy, and I’d never think that my German relatives are mispronouncing her name when they say Vendy. Just how it’s said in German because they have a different W sound. Similarly, my name is pronounced significantly differently here or abroad. Neither is “wrong” it’s just how it’s pronounced in different languages.

Reminds me of a while back someone looking for koll-GAH-tay. We went around in circles for a bit until I realized he wanted toothpaste. Was he pronouncing it wrong? No, just the way it’s pronounced in his country.

There’s plenty of room for American self-criticism but I see no shame in having pronunciations that differ in other lands. There’s a difference between wrong and local.

Jacques Pépin does of course pronounce his name correctly, but that's not how the announcers on PBS pronounce it. They pronounce it as if it rhymes with "jock", and Jacques pronounces it as it rhymes with "jack," as Islay noted. Sometimes there is a subtle difference in the vowel pronunciation, but if you listen closely, you will be able to hear it. There is no valid reason for the pronunciation to be changed in American English, since the French pronunciation is very similar to the pronunciation of "Jack" with only the "J" sounding different. Look up "Jacques" in this site for French variations of the pronunciation. Often it is pronounced with two syllables, but not always.

The "W" sound does not really exist in German as expressed by a single letter, and "W" is pronounced like English "V" in German, and "V" in German is pronounced like "F" in English. Oddly enough, I hear Germans pronounce "visited" as if it were spelled "wisited," and this has always puzzled me, since the "W" sound is extremely rare in German and would required multiple vowels to spell it. The "J" sound in German is also rare, and is spelled "dsch" in German. But you know this, since you speak German.

German is second language after my primary language English, and I took German in high school for two years and then four years at university. After German, I learned French, but never became all that good at it. Then I learned Russian and never became very fluent in that either. This was all in college for my first degree.

Then I decided that it would be more practical to learn Spanish, since I wanted to visit Mexico, and that was very easy for me to learn, especially since I was around so many Spanish speakers. I took Spanish conversation and French conversation at City College in San Francisco in my mid 20s.

When I went back to university for my design degree at age 35, I took Italian classes, so that I could read Italian design magazines, as I had a particular interest in Italian furniture and design. I also read Italian books on architecture at that time. Italian was easy because I already knew Spanish, and it was just easy for me to pronounce. Russian was easy for me to pronounce also, but I have always struggled with French. My mouth and tongue just have trouble forming the correct positions to pronounce it correctly. The nasal vowels are very foreign to my mouth also, but I had no trouble with the palatalized vowels in Russian, for some reason.

I do pronounce many words with anglicized pronunciations, once they have been incorporated into the English language - especially Spanish names for places. Many in California have rather odd pronunciations, but they have become local standards, such as "San Ra-FELL" for San Rafael or "San PEE-dro" for San Pedro. Often when I would come back to Texas from Mexico, I would retain Spanish pronunciations for some names, and it would irritate my mother when I would pronounce San Francisco with a Spanish accent.

Ok now I do get what you’re saying about the vowel and now agree that most Americans say it in a way that you say is incorrect. But I would still submit that this is therefore the American pronunciation. 😀

ETA - And despite everything I’ve said above I will attempt to “correct” my pronunciation and expect this will bug me for the rest of my years. Thanks, I guess!

I had to laugh at myself - couldn't get Gruyere! Then my DH said - it's like Grew Hair!

I am pretty much okay with American pronunciations except when it comes to people's names. I was taught that it was disrespectful to mispronounce someone's name, but sometimes it is not always possible to pronounce another person's name correctly, but if an effort is made, then that should be sufficient. Willfully mispronouncing someone's name is another story.

For anything else less personal, pronunciations can be modified to suit the language one is speaking.

Before I learned Spanish, I had a friend in south Texas named Enrique, and he did not speak very much English (or that well). He did make a point of teaching me how to pronounce his name correctly, with an "eh" sound at the end. I was already good at trilling the R's. He was a jewelry maker and also owned an art gallery and a Spanish movie theater that showed vintage Mexican movies, mostly from the 1950s. Most of his clients at the art gallery were Anglo, and they always called him Enriki, with a long E sound at the end of his name. He never corrected them, however, since they were clients.

We are specialized for hearing certain sounds and not others. Up to ten months old, I think, babies aren't hearers of a particular language. But even before they speak at all, their hearing gets attuned to the sounds of their own language, and they no longer can distinguish, say, the subtleties of different "k" sounds some languages have. They specialize.

When I was doing genealogy, I came across a family who had a daughter Margaret. Except sometimes she appeared in church records as Rebecca. No sign that there were two. Finally I realized her name was Becky/Peggy; they sound the same to a PA Dutch hearer. (And they'd be pronounced as something in-between.) One minister would hear it and record her full name as Margaret. Another would hear it and write down Rebecca!

I had a coworker whose name was Paola, (pronounced Pow-la), and one of our coworkers would always call her Payola, which I thought was hysterical, but no one ever corrected her. It reminded me of reading about payola in Billboard Magazine in the 1960s.

Lars reminds me of when the announcers in Montreal would “correct” Jim Lefebvre's name. He says the Americanized “Leh-FEE-ver”. It's his name. One assumes that no matter the origin, the man knows how to say his own name.

Re Jaques, I'd be glad to try to repeat your family's pronunciation, but I don't get your examples. M. Pepin says his name the way I'm used to hearing it in French. While I've heard Americans and Brits say a variety of things from Jack with a hard J, like Jack Warner, to something more or less like Pepin's but with the “a” voiced longer, I don't get the vowel from Jack vs. the vowel from Jock. M. Pepin uses a reduced vowel, like an "uh”. What I here most here is an "ah” sound, like in “father”. I have heard French speakers saying what is notated as æ, which is the vowel in cat. Other French speakers say it with an ah sound. The issue then is what happens when the speaker gives extra personality to the “uh” sound. That's where accents come in. There are more than half a dozen ways of saying this kind of an “a”, and as Cloudy Christine was saying, how you interpret that depends on what sounds you can differentiate. You can teach these coloration differences to adults—that's what dialect coaches do—but close enough is all most people can manage. I wouldn't get hung up on a vowel.

I'm sure I massacre plenty of ethnic food names. I know that even though I'm Greek and know how to pronounce gyros correctly, if I'm ordering some at a Greek restaurant, I'd better ask for JI-ros with a long "i" and long "o." Otherwise, who knows what I'll get.

My family has always pronounced moussaka as moo-saw-KAH, with the emphasis on the last syllable. Spanakopita is pronounced as spah-nah-KO-pi-ta, with the accent on the third syllable and with a long "o." But, my family's origins were humble. Perhaps better educated and wealthier Greeks pronounced things differently.

Plllog, I would not get hung up on a vowel either, except when people are telling me I am pronouncing my family's name incorrectly.

To me, the "ah" sound in "father" is very similar to the "o" in "jock" - I have trouble hearing a difference, but that is my own limitation. Vowel sounds do vary drastically across the U.S., and so there are many ways to pronounce them in American English. The same is probably true with British English.

There are two ways to pronounce "rather" - with a short "a" in "dad" or the "ah" sound in "father," the Katharine Hepburn New England way. Which way do you use when pronouncing the name Dan Rather? This is the same difference in vowel sounds in Jacques. No one I know says "Dan Rah-ther" since Dan does not pronounce his name that way.

My mother used to do impersonations of Katharine Hepburn saying the phrase "Really I do" pronounced "Rally I do" when I was a child. I also heard this on cartoons in the phrase, "Parting is such sweet sorrow, really it is."

Scene at 5:31 for the Romeo and Juliet chickens.

Agatha Christie's books sometimes make fun of American characters' pronunciation. Especially "girl." She writes it "gurl" with a U. I've never heard it any other way, so what does she mean? Of course in some parts of England "r" is not pronounced. I guess the thing Agatha contrasts with our "girl" would have a longer vowel and a breathy sound before the "L"?

Lars, it's a difference in how you hold your lips, between jock and father. My point was that the shortened vowel that Pepin says could be- and is- extended either way. But yes, of course, someone trying to correct someone else's name is the height of arrogance, and most annoying. But it's different people whose name is Jacques whose differing pronunciation I was referring to. My own name is pronounced differently by educated Brits than my mother, than California surfers, than actors on TV. The latter group overemphasize the first syllable in the same way as in the Jacques issue, and use a long hard vowel. It hurts my ears. But they're not wrong, per se, even though it sounds like an elephant taking a giant step. They're just annoying. But they can't even tell the difference, so they're not trying to correct me. ;D

Just popping in to say however he pronounces his name, I adore Jacques Peppin. Just one of the best cooking teachers out there, and I love how he makes fine food sound so doable and homey.

I answer to most pronounciations of my first name......most Brits don't say it properly. No hope here. Sigh. My sister is Jenny and I've always been jealous lol.

There are a couple of French words I find impossible so I avoid them..... bouilloire ....a kettle, defeats me.🙂