Alana, would you mind posting a photo of your Louis Phillipe blooms? BTW, where did you get your LP?

I have a bush (which I've called LP) that's been in my garden for 15 years. For the sake of comparison, I'll post a photo of mine on Monday.

I don't have a photo ATM it just bloomed again and that's when I started wondering. The next time it blooms I'll post photo's. Louis is young I just got it as a band this spring, but that big white eye is like nothing I've read about. I looked it up before asking the question on here. Did all of your blooms on a young Louis have a big white eye and no scent? I would appreciate the photo's idixierose. Jeri I've seen photo's of your Louis and he got big beautiful full double looking blooms and mine certainly doesn't. I didn't detect and white on the petals at all. If this were just the streaking I wouldn't be worried but this is a full white center. Thanks and looking forward to hearing back from ya'll.

I forgot to say I got my Louis from RVR. I haven't said anything to them and don't really plan to. I've been talking to Pam at Angel garden's seeing if she has the right one, if I don't. If mines not right I'll get one from her or maybe RU. My mom and I are planning a trip their this spring anyway, which I'm really looking forward to.

Alana -- my Louis Phillipe is ten years old. I'd be shocked if yours DID look just like it, even if it was its own clone.

I'd ask you, with all respect, not to pit one nursery against another. God in Heaven knows, we don't need that.

Feel free to send me pix of your rose, and I'll see what I can see.

No one can have too many Chinas, so you can't go wrong, buying one from every remaining nursery.

Jeri

Mine came from RVR this year as well. I got to see one flower open, and all I can say is that it was small and red -- the flowers on this rose seem to be very popular with one of the squirrels which frequents my back yard. I saw the first one open because I hadn't planted 'Louis Philippe' in the ground yet, but any buds that formed after it was planted were nipped just before opening.

How many flowers have you seen on your plant? I noticed that on some of my other Chinas, the first wave of flowers that opened on them did look only vaguely like the way they should, but after disbudding and growing them a bit, I'm seeing normal flowers in the last few weeks.

There was talk on this forum about East-coast vs West-coast discrepancies between 'Louis Philippe' and 'Cramoisi Superieur'. It seems that most West-coast nurseries sell 'Louis Philippe' as the China with more strongly-scented flowers, on a plant that grows a little more tall than broad. 'Cramoisi Superieur' is said to have less-fragrant flowers, and the plant grows a little more broad than tall. Nurseries on the East-coast reverse the situation, and it's hard to say which side has it right.

While we're talking about it, RVR has two 'Louis Philippe' roses offered -- one which I'm assuming is the traditional West-coast fragrant red China, and another labelled 'Louis Philippe from Florida' which doesn't have any further descriptive information on its page, and thus doesn't come up when searching by class for Chinas. You can find it by either searching alphabetically by rose name, or simply searching 'Louis Philippe' and finding two results. Does anyone know what this "Florida" version is? Does anyone have this rose? If I had more room, I'd buy it just to see how it differs from the other 'Louis Philippe' they sell. I'm guessing it's a locally-collected random unlabeled red China which was passed around under this name but not actually the same as what RVR sells under it. Hmmm.....

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Louis Philippe' search at RVR

Jeri, I'm not pitting one nursary agaist the other as I said I haven't told RVR and don't Plan too, and I didn't tell pam who I got my other Louis from, just described it to her and told her I got it from another nursery and asked her what hers looked like, and she said based on what I told her it didn't sound right. It has bloomed a couple of times this past was it's second flush, I don't remember what the first looked like, didn't pay much attention. The next time it blooms I will take pics and post. I just didn't think about it until after it bloomed and Christopher it was probably about seven blooms or so this last flush. Jeri you are right, you can never have to many china's, that why I was looking for a alternate source, where just in case this wasn't the right rose I could order another. Christopher I have seen they get confused, although I don't know why. Just so you know I'm not trying to discredit no nursery, I've been very happy with RVR, I just was telling the person that asked what nursery it was., which was idixierose. That said I'll be very happy for any input based on the information I've given you please and not opinions based on mis-communication. If anyone could please tell me if Louis has a huge round white eye when young, and no scent. I would greatly appreciate if anyone else can tell me you experienced this, Thanks! I am sorry for any misread info. Jeri, what did you mean by you would be shocked if it looked like yours? That it might as it matures or that you doubt it would? Thanks again!

Back in 2009, I worked at a garden which had both Louis Philippe and Cramoisie Superieur. Both had been purchased from Antique Rose Emporium.

The LP bloom had about 3 times as many petals as the CS. The petals in the center of the bloom were pale pink blending into by a ring of deeper red petals around the outside of the bloom.

The CS blooms were similar, but with fewer petals and more completely red, with a few small pale petals around the center of the bloom. The blooms were not as large or fragrant as LP.

I may have photos, but it will take a while to find them When I do, I'll post them here.

Thanks, idixierose, that's the Louis I want I believe. However I will still post pics as soon as I can, I need a new camera, but I'm dealing with my old one for now. I am visiting RU in mid-april, because I think it will be nice to see and pick up some roses in person for once. I'll post some pics when I do that, by then I should have my new camera. My mom and I have been planning this trip for a couple of months now. I live, I think, over 1 hour away, but I've never got to visit a nursery before and I've read on hear about other people visiting and next year, I'll have my chance :) so excited.. I will appreciate the photos though, alot they will help, Thanks idixiegirl!

If anyone has ever seen Louis with a big white I, please let me know. Mine has new canes coming up, so I should have some blooms sometime to post pics of! Thanks!

Here's a picture of Louis Phillpe. Next is Cramoisie Superieur. As you can see it does not look like it at all. and I thought it was single but I put semidouble up top, knowing it was supposed to have more petals. Guess my memory is not purfect, but I was tring to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Here is my Cramoisie Superieur just for comparison.

Nope. That doesn't look to be in the "normal" range for L.P. I'd say it's just a mix-up.

I can't tell you what it is, either -- tho it has a familiar look.

Were I you, I would send that image to the nursery from which you purchased it, and ask them what they think it might be. They will likely happily send you the correct rose. It's always good to notify any nursery of an error, and give them a chance to make it right.

Jeri

Thanks Jeri, I'm not going to mess with informing them, It's not anything against them, it's just I've already had one mislabled, three they were out of even though I had ordered from them the year before. Then I had one die out the blue a month or more ago, despite every effort I put forth to save it. I called for a replacement for the one that died and the owner said :haven't we replaced alot of roses for you?: and I told her no, I've only had three not make it one from ya'll and two from two other nusery's. I then proceded to tell her she must have been thinking of the three I ordered, which I had to find substitutes for and the one mislabled I had received.She told me that was probably what she was thinking of, and transfered me to James. James got on the phone very briefly and said a new one would be sent out monday, and hung up on me while I was still talking to him and thanking him. It kinda put me off, they send out excellent plants don't get me wrong but including shipping I bought over $300 dollars worth of roses from them to be treated like the ones they were out of and a mislabled, Mme. Abel Chateney which I posted about in another thread, was my fault. They could have been busy, but he always said so if I get to talking sometimes like I normally do, but I barely got three words out of my mouth and I got hung up on, James had always been very nice and all and when they both acted like that, I didn't know what to make of it.Like I said it kinda putt me off, like I had done something wrong. I'm just gonna get a replacement elsewhere, unless it's something no one else has, I've already noticed a couple I would like to get from them later, as no one else carries them. I'm gonna get another Louise elsewhere, however, not to pit one nusery against the other or nothing, just so I spend it with other nusery's to and also so they don't think I'm trying to get over on them, as that is how they made me feel. It really kinda hurt my feelings they would have thought that. Withnusary's closing that is the last thing I would imagine doing. Please don't think I'm badmouthing them either , please. I'm honesly not, just explaining why I'm just gonna buy another elsewhere, instead of bothering them. They send out beautiful plants and highly recommend them, and planning on ordering again in the future.Thanks for your help and for listening! Great to confirm what I thought. I respect everybody on this forum and love reading your posts a great deal, although at the moment I rarely contribute. I will once all my stuff is complete and I feel I have enough experience to comment. Thanks again!

Thanks Jeri, I'm not going to mess with informing them, It's not anything against them, it's just I've already had one mislabled, three they were out of even though I had ordered from them the year before. Then I had one die out the blue a month or more ago, despite every effort I put forth to save it. I called for a replacement for the one that died and the owner said :haven't we replaced alot of roses for you?: and I told her no, I've only had three not make it one from ya'll and two from two other nusery's. I then proceded to tell her she must have been thinking of the three I ordered, which I had to find substitutes for and the one mislabled I had received.She told me that was probably what she was thinking of, and transfered me to James. James got on the phone very briefly and said a new one would be sent out monday, and hung up on me while I was still talking to him and thanking him. It kinda put me off, they send out excellent plants don't get me wrong but including shipping I bought over $300 dollars worth of roses from them to be treated like the ones they were out of and a mislabled, Mme. Abel Chateney which I posted about in another thread, was my fault. They could have been busy, but he always said so if I get to talking sometimes like I normally do, but I barely got three words out of my mouth and I got hung up on, James had always been very nice and all and when they both acted like that, I didn't know what to make of it.Like I said it kinda putt me off, like I had done something wrong. I'm just gonna get a replacement elsewhere, unless it's something no one else has, I've already noticed a couple I would like to get from them later, as no one else carries them. I'm gonna get another Louise elsewhere, however, not to pit one nusery against the other or nothing, just so I spend it with other nusery's to and also so they don't think I'm trying to get over on them, as that is how they made me feel. It really kinda hurt my feelings they would have thought that. Withnusary's closing that is the last thing I would imagine doing. Please don't think I'm badmouthing them either , please. I'm honesly not, just explaining why I'm just gonna buy another elsewhere, instead of bothering them. They send out beautiful plants and highly recommend them, and planning on ordering again in the future.Thanks for your help and for listening! Great to confirm what I thought. I respect everybody on this forum and love reading your posts a great deal, although at the moment I rarely contribute. I will once all my stuff is complete and I feel I have enough experience to comment. Thanks again!

I'm so sorry! I don't know why it double-posted!

Oh, those double posts happen. You can edit one of them to say "double-post."

I had the same problem -- no worse -- years ago with Heirloom Old Garden Roses. I suspect they will be better under new management.

I always say -- every nursery makes mistakes. (We ALL make mistakes.) The big test is how the errors are dealt with.

In this case, though, I would want to know what the heck you have there. It's a really nifty rose.

Jeri

HA! I think I got it!

I suspect that what you have there is 'Papa Hemeray.' This a a China that I really like.

It's a China, Bred by Hemeray-Aubert (France, 1912) -- from Old Blush and Hiawatha. REALLY a nifty little rose.

Jeri

Here is a link that might be useful: Papa Hemeray, at HMF

Thanks Jeri, looks like it! As long as Papa has new growth that is red and this rose is growing more upright than out I have noticed. Like you said never to many chinas, I've come to love them in the little time I've had them!

The foliage seems to be a good match. I believe you will enjoy him.

Jeri

double post, reply? sorry don't know how? and thanks! I'll enjoy him! Does Cramoisi look right?

This post was edited by Alana7bSC on Thu, Sep 19, 13 at 11:41

This is interesting to me, not because of Louis Phillipe, but in regard to Papa Hemeray. I received from Rogue Valley, as a free "mystery rose", something that looks VERY much like Papa Hemeray, which is not a rose I was previously familiar with and would NOT have chosen to order. This was just last June, so mine is obviously very young, but I have to say that so far I've really been surprised by it- it's charming! You just never know : )

Zachary

I'd known about him for years, and I don't know WHY I didn't buy him. He's not really well-known . . . But many of my best roses are either single or semi-double -- not bothered by cool, foggy days.

He really IS charming.

Jeri

Great! Glad he's a rose I'll like!I love old blush, so I'm positive I'll love him! Thanks ya'll !

Jeri- That's exactly what I've concluded about this "mystery". When I'm in my "fantasy" garden, single-flowered, scentless, and RED are not my main criteria...in fact, those are all things I avoid. But...one must be practical and realistic, and in my "reality" garden, this one looks like a champ. I'll take it!

On the other hand, in my snob garden "modern red hybrid tea" is my idea of a total nightmare, but I have "Oklahoma" and I think it's one of the most stunning roses I have ever grown. If the cool, foggy weather means that the flowers don't always fully open, it also means that the dark color doesn't fade- gorgeous black/purple cabbages! . And that scent!!! (yes, I know I've gone off-topic...sorry...)

Zachery it's fine to go off topic! Glad to have found out what it is. Now all I have to do is get my louis and I'll probably just wait until next spring! Thanks everyone for your help! Ohh, and Jeri, someone did tell me what happened up top, could have just been a mis-understanding. Like they hit the button on accident, Maybe your right and I should call and let them know. But I would still rather get another from somewhere else.Thanks!

This post was edited by Alana7bSC on Thu, Sep 19, 13 at 17:03

I got cuttings of Louis Pillipe from a museum in Nacogoches, Tx last October. They had a beautiful hedge row of them and the curator was very generous in giving me some cuttings. I have two rooted plants now and, even though they are still quite small, I allowed one of the plants to bloom this week. This is a photo of the LP grown from this cutting. It is totally and completely different from my 3 cramoisi superieurs (from different sources) in that the CS plants are very cupped and have many more petals than this LP.
Molly

Molly if you'll look at my cramoisi superieur picture up top it doesn't seemed cupped at all, I may have to get another of both, I don't know yet.

I am always intrigued by the conflicting information on LP and CS and I am sure there have been numerous errors in identifying these two roses throughout the years, but it is interesting that I have 3 CS and 2 LP all from different sources and the 3 CS are identical to one another and the two LP are identical to one another as well. All five of my roses have been grown from cuttings, so I have no way of finding the original source of each rose. This is my CS this morning.
Molly

Molly neither of mine look like yours :(

I'm not surprised, Alana. This is probably going to remain an unsolved mystery when it comes to these roses,
Molly

Jeri, I actually am not convinced my rose bush is Louis Phillipe, but the hedge row that I rec'd my cuttings from was so pretty, I wanted to grow whatever rose that was.
Molly
BTW, that photo of your LP is beautiful!

Molly -- You're a girl after my own heart. I haven't exhibited for quite a long time now, so if I have something I can't absolutely identify, I don't much care. The rose is more important to me than the name.

And thank you. It's a lovely rose. It has flourished in a spot where reflected heat killed three previous roses. Tough old bird.

Jeri

Jeri, The antique rose emporium has a Cram. that looks like your Louis and goes by another name Agrippina, which I looked up and is a definate match. let me know what you think!

What a great thread. You never know what info will come your way. Like zjw727 from Oregon, I also received a mystery rose from Rogue in June of 2012. Walla...it now has a name. Thank you folks, I would never have figured it out.
Alana is it possible that the tags got confused and this is your mystery rose like ours?
Anyhoo..thanks again. Another mystery solved.

Alana, Agrippina is another name for 'Cramoisi Superieur.' (I mostly see that name applied to the Climbing form, but perhaps that's just my perception.

There IS a great deal of confusion between 'Cramoisi Superieur' and 'Louis Phillipe,' but I tend not to worry about it. There are other, mostly found, red Chinas that appear to be in the same "family" of roses. I don't worry about that, either.

Most of these guys have been shared around in seedling form, and the breeding is in any case un-recorded. I suppose there is a chance one or both or others were brought to Europe from China, and introduced as if they'd been bred there. I decided a long time ago that it was a mug's game to worry overly about which was which in my own garden. I'm generally too laissez faire for that. It's like worrying about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

Frankly, the one I like best of all of them is "Elisabeth's China," -- one of the "Legacy" roses in the Sacramento City Cemetery. Elisabeth Stober's rose blooms all the time, and propagates like mad. Like most of the other red Chinas, she can be a very dark blood red, or (in hot weather) gentle her color down to shade of pink

JeriJen

"Elisabeth's China":

I can't find that rose anywhere. It's beautiful!

No. "Elisabeth's China" was planted on the grave of Elisabeth Stober, native of Germany, who died in Sacramento, CA at age 87, in 1881. There is evidence that the plant is quite old, and that it has been cut to the ground multiple times, and grown back.

It looks like this was planted for Elisabeth not long after she died (tho we can never know for sure). I like to think it was a rose from Elisabeth's own garden. It's very fragrant!

It is not in commerce, but is often available at the cemetery's annual spring Open Gardens. That's where I bought the two I have.

It's just one of many really gorgeous, unidentifiable, red China Roses.

Jerijen

She's beautiful! I'll never be able to get her here though, that's way to far to travel! Wish I could! Thanks for the history, it was interesting :) and for all your help :)

What a beautiful, graceful rose, and the way it drapes itself over the stone is stunning (and I don't use that word a lot). Diane

When I saw it for the first time, I was stunned. On one side of the "road" there is this. On the other side, a wonderfully mature 'Archduke Charles.'

What wonderful gifts those folks left us! And what great things it says for roses like these who survived many long decades of neglect.

Jeri

This is a great thread. I love those red china roses.
LP, CS, WPIRDM ... really pretty much all of them.
Great shot of the china at the cemetery!

Randy

Hey Jeri,

Just letting you know I talked to Janet at RVR and she said she would send out a replacement next week for
Louis and then a Cardinal, that didn't make it that I was hoping would pull through. We had a very nice conversation, although when I told her I was asking for help on here , asking to make sure it was mis-identified. She asked if I was bad mouthing them. I assured her that I would never do that to them or any other nusery, I was just getting a opinion on the photo. I meant to tell her to feel free to look it up on here, but forgot to, I told her I actually loved the roses they sent out and highly recommened them. I spoke to her about the misunderstanding, and you was right, that's all it was. So out of like around 60 roses this year I had a total of 4 die, two from them, why don't know, it happens. She also gave me some advice since I just got out the hospital today, I had my right thyroid removed yesterday, all is well so far :) I tried privately emailing you but it wouldn't let me. Glad everything worked out and thanks for all the great advice! I made a mistake and took what they said wrong, which
I shall try never to do again in the future!

I'm so glad! Janet's a really nice person -- and I was sure it would turn out that way.

I'm just glad she is dedicated enough to keep the nursery going, in tough times.

Jeri

yeah, me too.Today was the longest we've talked, so I feel I got to know her better and she did seem really nice. Even though she said she was busy and was by herself she took out the time to talk to me.
i'm glad I talked to her, I feel alot better knowing it was just phone glithes and a misunderstanding on my part. when I told her about the accidental hangup, she said something about her staff, this sugary has me a little tired,

i'm, fixing to go back to bed so exscuse my bad memory. I assured her that James has been nothing but the nicest person to me and I didn't think their could be anything but a accidental hangup.

I told her I was planning on getting a couple of more from them next year, they have always, even with the two mislabels, the the best rooted bands. They have become a favorite along with burlington,longago, and high country.Ohh, and ARE and RU! I only had one experience with vintage, but I am sorry they are gone.

Anyway, thanks for all your help!

Alana, for what it's worth, I've grown both for over 20 years. Both of my parent plants were ARE plants. Right or wrong, Cramoisi is a fuller, more cupped bloom. Louis has very dark red double flowers that show a small white eye. He has a sharp good scent, Cramoisi is much fainter. Louis is an exceptionally free bloomer & vigorous plant--always blooming, always growing. Cramoisi is very good, too, but Louis throws even more flowers for me.

Just my observations on the plants that ARE labels as Louis & Cramoisi--I love them both. Chamblee's plants that I've observed are similar.

Sorry you had to have surgery--best wishes :-)

OK, so my 'Louis Philippe' from RVR has started blooming again, and the squirrels are too busy burying food to notice (and eat) the flower buds before they open. While certainly not single, they're not (yet?) quite like the pictures I've seen of 'Louis Philippe'.

I am thinking that this is due to it being young, but I definitely notice a white eye at the center. The shape of the flowers is cupped, and on the outside does look just like 'Louis Philippe' on HelpMeFind, but it's as though someone ripped out the very center. I'm seeing two or three rows of petals on the outside, and I smell something that reminds me of Cherry Nibs (the short pieces of red "licorice" put out by Twizzlers).

I DO think I PROBABLY got the right rose, being as none of the other red Chinas sold by RVR look to be a better match, but I'm wondering if anyone growing 'Louis Philippe' could "dissect" a flower and tell me if the large outer two or three rows of petals have white bases. Perhaps you can't see them on fully-double flowers, but are they there nonetheless? I'll have to take pics in the next couple of days.

I notice white centers on Jardineratx's pic, and that the center seems "missing", and this is sort of how my rose looks -- except on mine, the petals it has do maintain the cupped shape found on 'Louis Philippe'.

I think that Jeri's pics of 'Louis Philippe' offer a good base for how mine look -- just imagine removing the inward-folding petals, keep the outer three rows of petals, and keep the cupped shape. And when you peek into the "cup", you can see that the petals have white bases, forming a white "eye" that is mostly obscured by the cup-shape of the outer petals. That's how mine look. Is that just 'Louis Philippe' as a baby?

:-)

~Christopher

Yup, just checked. White bases on all 21 petals, small cupped bloom, sharp China scent. Cramoisi isn't blooming just now but its blooms are larger, seems to have more petals IIRC, it isn't as strongly scented & is a bit paler--whatever I actually have, the blooms are distinctly different & both mother plants are old (20+ years) & from ARE

Christopher, Does yours look like mine? (see link for my original post about it) Petals from the Past gave me a new one that definitely is LP since we are unsure about this one. Bluegirl's post makes me think my first one might grow up to be LP afterall. It's just starting to put out new growth, but no new buds yet. I'm anxious to see what it becomes.

{{gwi:309848}}

Here is a link that might be useful: GardenWeb

Thank you for confirming what I suspected. I looked through HelpMeFind again tonight and found a picture that pretty much matches what I'm seeing out there on 'Louis Philippe' now. Note that the cupped shape is maintained, but there's a "hole in the center" that shows the stamens. If you look really hard at the pic, you can get a suggestion of a white eye around the stamens. That's what I've got, so I suppose it's just an effect of mine being a baby (and perhaps because 'Louis Philippe' has a touch of mildew at the moment -- I'll have to do another deep watering soon, I suppose).

:-)

~Christopher

Here is a link that might be useful: 'Louis Philippe' pic at HelpMeFind that matches mine