I agree with all of your sentiments, Gean, and have said something similar on my final post to the "Sammy" thread. I wish to continue to read and learn form Ingrid, Cecil, Kim and Lyn. I value all of their experience and would hate to lose any of them. But if there is someone whose opinions you do not share, don't let that drive you away from here. Simply skip reading their posts. You can still continue to enjoy these forums with the others who enjoy you as well.

I hope you get your wishes, Gean. Thanks for trying.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Golly -- I'm glad I didn't get caught up in THAT conversation!

Jeri

And since probably none of what I hope happens really will, Jeri, I am sorry too I read the posting in the first place.

It's just that Kim had a perfectly valid point about wild animals, but it is just in the tone of "voice" or perception of how things sound that all of the mess erupted.

And it's always like that. The pruning wars over the last number of years were finally resolved when people realized that different parts of the country, different kinds of roses needed different treatment. Well, duh. But how many hurt feelings resulted because of arrogance or perceived arrogance from different opinions. Perfectly valid opinions, I might add.

And I think that if we are going to have any kind of a relationship here over roses on an internet basis, we need to have a kind of thick skin to begin with.

Or just leave and go to Facebook or some other place, which is what so many others have done.

Well, I was on Facebook for a while and I couldn't find anybody from here, didn't know how to find them, but then my social skills probably weren't meant for social networking. :(( I really do like the in-depth format of this forum. I'd hate to lose it.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Actually, I like MANY things about Facebook -- not least the way it has merged my different areas of friendship, so that dog people are looking at roses, and rose folks are looking at dogs.
But it is a whole different thing from this "community."

And it's smart to remember, in ANY forum, that the "tone" of a post is subject to your own personal interpretation -- so that you may be "hearing" a tone of disparagement or even "arrogance" that was never there at all.

This forum has lost some excellent participants because of that sort of mistaken interpretation, followed by an angry response.

It's always smart, before posting an angry response, to communicate privately. About 90% of the time, no disparagement was intended.

Jeri

Who could see herself taking another hiatus . . .

I try to read whatever I find that Kim writes. He's passionate and opinionated. In reading him, I remember that. I like him and so all of my interpretations are filtered through understanding that little about him, and so it's easy, easy, easy for me to give him grace even when I don't particularly agree or understand. I have a lot of respect for him.

I agree with Jeri - it is our perceptions of what someone else means that is the real problem in most cases that I've seen here. There are some exceptions = that flap over Pretty Jessica was incomprehensible in its stupidity.

I just wish that we would all give each other the benefit of the doubt as to other's motives and filter our words through some measure of kindness and understanding. And not get our feelings hurt so easily. And not demonize each other.

And if we figure out that we could go to Congress and fix all that mess.. ugh.

Sherry, I'm with you. I like the ability ARF give me to write at will, post pictures, communicate here. And make a complete fool of myself, for that matter, which has happened on occasion. :-/

Jeri, how can you take a hiatus when as it is I never see you anymore? Can you take a hiatus from a hiatus? Oh, goodie, that means you'll be back. Hope so. Hope you and DH and Becket are doing well.

Sherry

Here is a link that might be useful: If only sweat were irrigation...

Oh well, Sherry -- I often don't post because, well, I've also gotten slapped down more than a few times.

Nowadays, if the Original Question does not relate to my immediate area, I just say nothing. Life's too short.

Jeri

Oh boy, I dare not say too much until I digest this and calm down a little...but I will say this - we've lost too many posters in the past few years due to this sort of thing.

In the past year I've posted about my husband's terminal cancer, my cat, retiring, etc and everyone has been supportive and it meant so much to me. Really don't know what is happening here... it happens on other boards too, not too long ago Lavender Lass really caught it over on the home forum, it got so ugly they finally deleted the whole thing.

Enough.

Well said, Gean.

I agree, Ogrose. Enough.

I handle negative remarks to a post by just ignoring them - I have found that others do too, and if there are 4 pleasant, positive posts right after the negative one, then we don't tend to get into a fuss about them. What is it they say in the South? Just smile sweetly, say nice things, and ignore anything else, and do what you want anyway - it works!

Jackie

Jackie, well said, LOL!!

I think you are all treating both Kim and Lyn shamefully.

Susan

Susan - I do not think that is the intent at all. It is just that sometimes all of us may say something that is, or at least is taken, negatively, even if it was not at all intended that way.

If the response is the equivalent of the old Southern standby "Well, bless your heart!", and then the subject is changed, you end up with what my Grandmother told me cured hurt feelings long ago: "least said, soonest mended".

Jackie

There you go...

Well this is great, talking it all out and making a plan on how to advoid disputes and remain friends.

Jackie, you are exactly right: This thread should never have been started. The broughaha might well have all died down if Kim and Lyn had not been called upon to apologize for....????

Hopefully the administration will wake up and delete the whole thread.

Susan

Oh, Oh, the lights are blinking, I've turned EVERYTHING off that I can think of except for the computer, the house is totally dark, so hope we can keep this A/C on.

This kind of puts things in perspective, doesn't it? Makes us think about what is important, especially to the elderly and really needy people.

I post on many websites, not about roses, this happens on all sites, you should read the fights in the compost forum! It is silly. I sometimes forget myself and get into squabble with other posters. But it really isn't worth it. And it's certainly not worth abandoning something you enjoy. Don't let one or two people ruin it for you.

I am married to a man who says what he thinks, explains it fully, and moves on. His intellectual resonse, his stating facts, and backing them up may sound abrupt and disrespectful, but he is imply replying to a situation.

As I see it, one person showed her love, and another stated what he/she has learned through the years, and backed up the statements with sound facts. I don't think disrespect was intended, but simply stating facts.

I am quite fond of all the people involved and hope we can all move on together. This year has been so bleak for my garden that I have had very little to say. It saddens me for us to take sides and create a situation where we will lose the friendship and information from such intelligent and sensitive people. We just need to look at the "Conversations" section of the Roses Forum to see the names of those who have stopped posting. (I wish we could begin using that forum again.)

Sammy

I didn't read the other post (and I don't think I want to) but I will say that there is too much fighting and worries in the world right now...to bring it into the forums. Many of us come here, to talk about roses...and forget everything else. Let's talk about roses and see some pictures!

On a brighter note, our spring was so wet and cool (and summer so late) that my Celsiana is STILL blooming! Of course, I'm not going to see many tomatoes...but that's a topic for another forum :)

Sammy - I think you have put your finger on it - much of the initial misunderstanding was a Mars/Venus communication problem.

Most of the posters on this forum are kind hearted females, many of whose feelings can get hurt easily. What I would call "typical" or at least "not intentionally hurtful - just trying to give you facts" male communication can come across as abrasive, or even obnoxious (equating the nurturing of one orphaned baby squirrel with feeding coyotes, & thus causing them to attack children, was a bit over the top in my opinion).

I worked in "big business" for thirty years, so I had to learn early (I was frequently the only female in the room/meeting/conference call) that men DO communicate way differently than women do, and it is best to try and remember that, and not take things as personal attacks that were not intended that way. This can be difficult, of course, and harder as this forum is NOT an international business negotiation, so none of us have our defenses up and can be more emotionally vulnerable.

Jackie

Jackie

Well, what I am getting out of all this fuss, is people try to bend nature to their expectations... the same thing happens anyplace where sub-divisions and homes are placed into a 'wild' area, folks move there because it is 'wild' and when they want to be 'next to nature' that 'nature' turns out to be 'wild', and people don't know how to handle it.... they move where the bears and coyotes live and then when they realize those are wild animals, they want the animals to be moved away or they want the animals eliminated.... the animals are doing what nature intended, catching dinner, which may well be a pet doggy or even a wandering child-unsupervised.... we have the same problem here in Fla... there are alligators in every mud-puddle and signs by every pond to 'beware of alligators, do not feed', yet people feed them and let their dogs and even small children play next to the water and are horrified when the 'gator gets it's dinner.... and then they demand that alligator be destroyed because it's dangerous..... just my 2 cents worth .... sally

Sally, thank you for your comments; I actually agree with what you say. There is a bear that is as "big as a car" that roams this area as well as coyotes, wild cats and too many rodents to count. I don't even feed birds because of the wild life.

This thread is not about how to deal with wild animals, though; it's about watching how we respond to each other.

It's about being polite. If you post a topic, don't assume if someone disagrees with you or has more information that you're being flamed or put down.

If you disagree, be polite in your disagreement.

Be civilized and polite. If you're standing on the sidelines watching a disagreement, don't jump in and start calling people names or demonizing people. We're all human beings. We all deserve respect.

I don't always follow my own rules for behavior, but they're good rules, anyway, I think.

I like a good disagreement, where people post different points of view and we talk about things. I've learned a lot from those kinds of threads. It is just the ones that change from being about a topic to being a personal attack that cause problems.

Thanks to everyone for their comments. Susan, disrespect for either Kim or Lyn is the farthest thing from my intent. I'm glad you told me what you think, though.

Gean

Hi Gean...have you seen this bear?

Gean that makes sense BUT. It would be applicable if it was merely a discussion about wildlife. Everyone would have an opinion and no one would feel hurt. This is different because Ingrid shared something personal and was attacked. Yes. Attacked. She was chastized not once but twice. Once your feelings are hurt, it's no fun anymore and those of us who didn't want to fight, who don't find it exhilarating, simply stop posting to the forum's great loss.

Susan you're clearly a personal friend of Kim's. And how we treat people who are in the rose business, sell roses or are in rose organizations is quite different than how we treat Joe Poster from Peoria.

In case no one has noticed, Kim's entire first paragraph in that post was sarcastically aimed at ME and MY post about the squirrels stealing my rose hips. I wasn't the least bit offended by it. Rather, my take was that Kim has had some personal experiences with this issue that did not turn out good and he is passionate on the subject.

Ingrid has already stated that she is not in a good place right now and is emotionally sensitive. And I understand that. I think maybe Kim is sensitive on this subject as well only on the other side. I've read and reread that post and I do not think there was any intention to "attack" anyone. However, subsequent post have clearly been intentional "attacks". I am not a personal friend of Kim's. I only know him and interact with him on the rose forums so I have no bias on this issue. If you are so concerned about people "attacking" each other on the forums than we all need to end these threads ASAP.

mmmm, personally, i like a bit of contention, even a bit of flaming....and have certainly done my fair share of getting up people's noses BUT, I will certainly flounce off if this forum becomes some bland love-in. For heaven;s sake, if we are going to enage with the wider world, we also need to cultivate a slightly thicker skin. Even so, the veryy worst things I have ever read on these forums are absolutely anodyne and mild dissensions compared to some of the political forums where I go to REALLY let rip. So, lets hear it for passionate argument, colourful language and obsessive discussions - this is what makes us good gardeners, I think, instead of accepting the status quo without question.

Jackie_o, thanks for posting your thoughts. I've missed your posting and pics of your garden. I remember pictures of your garden overlooking that lake of yours.

I know that past problems with exactly this kind of thing are why you and some other people I really like stopped posting. I hate that you all have left. I hate that your feelings were hurt. I hate that we can't read each other's minds and always understand what to say so as not to offend.

The point of this thread is to talk about how we treat each other. It is inevitable that we disagree. That's part of the fun of this whole place.

But when we have an opposing viewpoint I think we need to be kind in how we phrase it. We also need to try to understand the other guy and why he responded how he did.

My take is that Kim is a guy, has had a terrifying experience with coyotes, and is opinionated. That is how he's made. whatever he believes, he's passionate about.

And I agree with Jackie above - I think Lyn and Kim's response was somewhat over the top in how they responded to what Ingrid actually said and posted. But I have read a lot of what Kim's written, not only here but on hmf and other places. I know he's passionate, opinionated and somewhat brusque. That's what he is. So what? I ignore it and try to figure out what he's really saying.

Nothing I have ever read of lyn's has ever been anything but kind and courteous. For her to respond the way she did must indicate some kind of horrible experience. I didn't really understand why she posted exactly what she did, but based on what else I've seen of her, I thought there must be something I didn't know.

I've never met Kim but I put him in the same category as other men I have met, kinda like Sammy shared about her husband.

I liked ingrid's posting, but didn't say anything because I don't exactly like interacting with wildlife. But I don't think she and her gallant husband did anything out of the ordinary or wrong. A lot of us would try to rescue a baby squirrel, probably. So what? Is it wise? I don't know. One baby squirrel doesn't amount to much. A snack for my bear.

I decided that it's Kim and Lyn's experiences of the dangers of what can happen that caused the over the top nature of their responses. Kind of like someone yelling "stop" if they think you're too close to the edge of a precipice.

I've done exactly the same thing. A friend told me she wanted to keep chickens in her yard. all I could think of is the times when I was raising chickens that I came home to dead chickens because of wandering coyotes and dogs. I was really over the top in my response and had to apologize later for being so negative.

It is true that some people are intentionally rude. I don't think that this is the case here.

I do not think that either Kim or Lyn intentionally were trying to insult or flame Ingrid. I think that both of them have had some pretty extreme experiences with wild life and are passionate about their opinions.

For Ingrid's part, I wish she hadn't taken offense, because I don't think any was intended. But as Ingrid has said, and Seil said above, Ingrid's response was more emotional than she wanted it to be, and she's upset right now, anyway.

I do know that when I offend someone, even if I did not intend to, I apologize. It costs nothing other my pride, and I have screwed up enough in my life to realize that I am not perfect, that I do hurt others, even when I don't intend to. Life's too short to waste it on trivialities like my pride.

I hope that helps, Jackie_O. As I said earlier, I hate that you and others don't post, and I am glad you posted now. Relationships anywhere are some of the toughest things to deal with in life. I've lost friendships over reasons that I can't even begin to understand why. I hate that too. Gean

--------
hi, Zyp,
lol - the description of the bear came from my neighbor. She said the bear climbed her fence to get to her bird feeders in her back yard. She was terrified and said it was "as big as a car." So I guess that's hearsay, huh?

there is a salmon run down behind our home and tons of those blackberries, which is why the bear frequents this area. That and bird feeders and probably garbage. And rodents galore. Good eatin' around here. I keep telling my cat he's a snack for some wandering wildlife and to be happy inside, but he's a stubborn cuss and insists on sneaking out when given half a chance.

Hi Gean. Thanks for answering. I do agree with you. The kicker about posting is - people who come here to just say "hey what's your favorite rose? or what bugs do you hate the most?" aren't really sharing anything personal. People who post photos of their gardens and pets are really putting themselves out there. Those are the people who sometimes get hurt. They are also the people I most enjoy reading. They're the people I've traveled to meet or welcomed to my home. You're one of those people and that's why I friended you on facebook so I could follow your gardening adventures after you moved to the PNW (someplace I'd love to garden!)And I agree - hard to tell tone on the internet.
Just my two cents.

Jackie,
Thank you for friending me on facebook and for posting.

I have to tell you that that I am terrible at facebook. I have friends I don't know who they are. I have groups of friends from church, family members, other churches, rose friends, acquaintances from I don't know where that show up on facebook. It's too confusing for me to try to digest.

About the only thing I do on facebook is poke my husband. We have a joke about both of us in separate rooms posting on each other's facebook accounts.

About the only internet presence that is in my life is here on the ARF. I've tried Peter Beales, I've tried facebook, I've gone over to a couple of other rose forums, and none of it has clicked with me. I wish I knew why I stay, because honestly it is a huge pain in the butt and eats up too much time.

I know that with fb you can limit your connection to people you like and exclude the rest of what you don't like. I understand the appeal of that.

Here, you're subject to whatever comes by. Maybe in a way that's its appeal to me - there are so many people that I've gotten to know here that I never would have if I'd just been on facebook with people I know and like. Other viewpoints I hadn't considered.

Maybe that's both its appeal and its danger.

And it's important to me to be able to help any newbie that might be interested in roses that stumbles into this place, because that was me 5 or 6 years ago. I've appreciated the variety of people here, the humor, the insights and the different experiences of people that have come through here.

I know that people are flawed and sometimes unable to help themselves from being a royal pain to others. I think how I've learned to survive here and enjoy it despite its shortcomings is to accept that people are flawed, not to expect perfection from anyone, least of all myself. I just want to talk about roses and learn about other's gardens.

Jackie, I hope you post here more often and share your beautiful gardens again. I know it's a pita, but somehow it seems worthwhile. But maybe not, you'll have to decide.

Gean

Jackie, I just wanted to say that I miss you too and I remember your beautiful garden. I'm also pretty bad at Facebook. It doesn't seem possible to have a good conversation there, just bits of comments.

harborrose: "I just wish that we would all give each other the benefit of the doubt as to other's motives and filter our words through some measure of kindness and understanding."

THIS.

There's no reason to be nasty just because you disagree with someone. You can state how you disagree with someone in a way that is polite and allows the other to save some face, or allows some measure of doubt, instead of jumping down someone's throught immediately.

The same sort of things happened in a couple threads of mine, too, even where my original question was just a simple request for information that I didn't know about a rose (with no intention of causing an arguement!)

It makes people afraid to converse or to ask questions. And it's really very few people who seem to respond in this knee jerk negative way, so it's too bad, but then there are very few people on these forums anyway.

Those of you who have been patient with me, others, and with other newbies, I greatly appreciate you. I've learned a lot from these forums. I still pop in periodically to ask questions or to post a few photos.