Thank you for that most excellent report on a rose I have never grown or observed. I was quite intrigued. Most unfortunate that it is becoming difficult to find.

Rosefolly

A lovely shrub and beautiful flowers!

Anne

What an excellent report- very glad to read it, as disease resistance in a humid climate is something that appeals to me VERY much. Heirloom Roses has it listed on their website as "out of stock"...I'll seek it out in their display garden, next time I'm there. Thank you!

What a useful post, thank you.

It's one thing for DA to discontinue offering their out of patent varieties, but something else for them to try to force other vendors not to propagate them (which to my definite knowledge they have done). It's a crime against. . . rosedom or something.

Incidentally, in medieval times, a reeve was an overseer of some sort. Sherriff = shire reeve. Chaucer's Reeve was steward of a country estate and formerly a carpenter. He tells a deliciously raunchy tale that Chaucer borrowed from Boccaccio.

Here is a link that might be useful: The Reeve's Tale

Haha--MOST of Chaucer's (& Boccaccio's) tales are quite raunchy. I only recall a couple of characters in CT who weren't rascals--the knight, the poor town parson. But the Pardoner's tale is a classic, though he's quite a rogue, too.

What a lovely rose the Reeve is--I'm gonna file your wonderful report & keep an eye out for him.

Hi Michael,

Yes, I have heard before that the Austin Corporation is putting pressure on growers not to continue to propagate its older, un-patented varieties. I know Pickering Nursery has been under some such pressure for several years. Recently, I heard from the owner of one of the few remaining US nurseries who grow older Austin varieties that it is true for them as well. This when I was dealing with them about the rose Allux Symphony.

I often wonder what if anything David Austin Senior thinks about this business strategy. I know that in his 2005 updated book about his roses he had this to say about the ones that he called superceded:

",,,For all these reasons and also for the fact that many of them are "old friends" we are loath to let them go. All of the roses described below are grown somewhere in the world and nearly all are available at our nursery."

I also note that the 2005 editon of his book "The English Roses" is dedicated to his grandchildren.

I had a look at the D.A. UK website this morning when I wrote the original post and The Reeve and many others that are not available to the US and Canada through D.A. North America are available in the UK and the EU.

There is also "The National Collection of English Roses" garden at David Austin's nursery in Shropshire. I expect that all of his released roses are grown somewhere on the nursery, for breeding stock, if for nothing else.

In our modern corporate driven, consumer based society, I guess it is to be expected that a corporation like David Austin Roses, which has global interests and is profit driven will make marketing decisions based primarily on profit, not on sentiment, or legacy. There is little profit on the older varieties, particularly those that were never patented.

Mr. Austin developed his roses due to his passion for roses, foresight and original ideas about roses and hybridizing. I suspect that David Austin Senior's primary passion is still a love of roses at heart. That love of roses and the passion of a visionary hybridizer is evident in some of his writing, particularly his early books.

However, he is both a benefactor and perhaps a victim of his success. His company's global success means his passion is now forcefully subject to a corporate agenda and the need for profit. His family, children and grandchildren are all wealthy. But that also means that his original passion and vision as well as his personal likes and dislikes about his introductions are subject to a corporate agenda to a large degree.

However, still I suspect that the legacy he is most proud of, is his legacy as a renowned rose breeder. Many of his roses are already classics, many others, such as The Reeve, will be grown by connosieur rosarians for many years to come. David Austin Senior is now 87 or 88 years old. I am confident that his garden's, his fame as a visionary rosarian and many of the roses he has given to the world will last long after the corporation his roses gave rise to is no more.

Cheers, Rick

I doubt any other rose company has pursued this strategy, and I wish DA junior or senior had stopped it. Surely they are concerned with DA's contribution to rose history as well as with profits.

I guess the reasoning is, if people aren't allowed to buy an older DA rose, they will probably buy a DA rose that is patented. Other breeders have a less distinctive brand identity. Probably some MBA at DA-USA came up with the idea.

Well, I called Heirloom Roses today to purchase what sounded like may be their last plant of The Reeve. My plan was to use it to replace Brother Cadfael, a rose that has struggled unhappily in my garden for a number of years. However, I read in Clair Martin's book that The Reeve is subject to powdery mildew, a problem in my garden. I canceled my order, so there is one plant available to an interested gardener who calls quickly.

(If someone does order it, it might be a good idea to say so here so that they do not get half a dozen calls for only one rose.)

Rosefolly

This post was edited by rosefolly on Thu, Aug 1, 13 at 17:45

I'm amazed to hear this. I've had The Reeve for ten years. It has never been anything but a weak grower. I've left it in place because it didn't take up any room. Odd how these things go.

Probably a difference between grafted and own-root plants.

That is a lovely rose, Rick, and your pictures and words did it full justice. I too am afraid the old Austins will vanish, which would be a shame, and I'm afraid that my favorite, Potter and Moore, may also disappear one day. So far it's still available at Heirloom and Rogue Valley, and I may need to get a second one while it's still available. I love those sumptuous and elegant blooms, stuffed with so many petals, which at least in my garden never ball. It's in my top five favorite roses and I wouldn't want to ever be without it.

Ingrid

This post captivated me last year when I happened to come across it, especially considering your comparison of 'The Reeve' to 'Coupe de Hebe'! I fell in love with Coupe when I first stared getting into roses and was surprised to find any mention of it along with a modern look-alike. It's once blooming thigh and my yard is very small. I'll have my Reeve next spring, just wanted to say thanks for sharing your story and this stunning rose! I agree completely with DA's present company, but whatever, it is what it is. I was very glad to see your update!!

RRL, welcome back to the West Coast! I did not know you had connections to our part of the world. For a long while I have admired your brave efforts of growing roses in zone 4. I hope we'll see you around at various West Coast rose events.

Rosefolly

I LOVE Lilian Austin. She is one of my best bloomers and her colors are just Wow!! I am not sure why she isnt more popular. I'm not surprised to hear that any of her offspring is also wonderful. I will have to try The Reeve!

I am interested in purchasing The Reeve rose but cannot find it currently in the US. Does anyone have a source here?

If you're in Wisconsin, you may want to contact Sam Kedem in Minn. HMF lists him as carrying 'The Reeve', so it may be worth calling or e-mailing, even though it isn't currently listed on his web site.

Here's the HMF info about who may have this rose available: http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.2493.1&tab=16

Long Ago Roses does have The Reeve listed (as AUSreeve), but may not have it available this year. Linda is great about responding to e-mails, so that's a good option.

Not all sellers have every rose in their collection available for sale every year, so it's always a good idea to contact sellers to find out what they do have, what they will have, and when they might have it.

Good luck,

Virginia

Yea, I was also looking into The Reeve but I just can't find it either when I was on the other thread ' why roses are hard to get' something like that.

It looks beautiful. But u need to know if it even grow in my zones. Just wish DA has old roses available, makes life so much easier.

Jin

Hortico has The Reeve listed and available for $18.99 Canadian. The budwood for their stock is from a mother plant in my former Eastern Ontario Garden. The plant on which the blooms were photographed several seasons ago. The original mother plant was purchased from Pickering Nursery well over a decade ago. Hortico ships anywhere in the US the plants are grafted on multiflora root stock grown from seed. No virus in Hortico's plants of The Reeve.

Rick, thank you for reviving this thread and more thanks for sending budwood to Hortico. I have a plant of Cressida, but not totally sure it is the correct rose, purchased quite a few years ago. I have "your" Cressida on order for spring, got The Reeve and St. Cecelia last spring. I adore blooms from both. St. Cecelia seems to be the more robust of the two at the moment - has gorgeous pale pink blooms. Looking forward to seeing both thrive in the spring. I have purchased from Hortico for years, and am so glad to see them taking up the challenge of preserving these older Austins. I have 3 small Lillian Austins growing in pots now - I also adore the beautiful color of this rose and find it a shame Austin discarded it. And more shameful still that the company tries to eradicate the older roses from commerce. Hopefully there will always be some nurseries that keep these roses available. Wish Cymbeline could be found.......

Judith

Hi Judith,

I am very pleased, no, stoked that Hortico is seemingly one of the primary sources for many of the older Austin's. In some ways they seem to have picked up the baton from Pickering Nursery. A decade or more ago, Hortico seemed to have some quality and customer service issues, but now they seem to be performing at a very high standard.

I myself have ordered three rose varieties from them for spring delivery, including a favorite that I left behind when I moved back west in the fall of 2016.

With respect to Cymbeline, she is a rose that I have often looked at and thought of growing, but as you know, she is rare and not in commerce. I know that Cymbeline is one of Jerri's Husbands favorite roses and that she and Clay have a mother plant. Perhaps there is a nursery that would agree to propagate it if they could acquire the appropriate plant material and if Jerri, or someone else with a healthy mother plant would agree to provide the wood or cuttings.

This is exactly what happened with the arrangements made between myself and Hortico for bud wood from Cressida, The Reeve, St. Cecelia, etc. An enthusiast, from California, who was a member of this forum contacted Hortico, a Canadian nursery, and said if I can arrange bud wood, would you propagate the plants. When Hortico agreed, they contacted me, a Canadian enthusiast, by email and hooked me up with the owner at Hortico and I sent the wood that summer. It took a few years, but now these rare, but exquisite rose varieties are back in commerce and available for sale in all of North America.

Antique and Modern Reproduction rose varieties saw a surge of interest in the late 1980's and the 1990's. As go many things in modern culture, OGR's at that time were trendy and Austin roses were new and fed into the OGR interest and trend. But now times have changed and gardening and rose growing in particular seem to be once again becoming an enthusiast's pursuit. So we are once again in an era when the rose enthusiasts have a responsibility and an oportunity to preserve worthy rose varieties from disappearing during this cultural lull in interest.

You are correct that up until when I sent them bud wood from my Cressida plant, Hortico was selling the wrong rose under this name. When they were advised of this fact and offered bud word from a mother plant of the real Cressida, they acknowledged their mistake and jumped at the chance to get the genuine variety back into commerce. I do not think you will be disappointed with the true Cressida when you get her and she begins to mature. Cressida does better grafted in my experience, so the grafted plants from Hortico should do very well. When she blooms, expect to fall in love and when you take a deep breath of her scent, prepare to swoon. I grew her two decades ago espaliered on a wall in a warm climate. She was intermingled with a plant of Sombrueil, the combination of which was to die for. Enjoy!

My two bits worth, cheers,

Rick

Rick do you think the Reeve does better grafted?

Rick, I corresponded with, I think, the person in California you talked about. Neither of us felt that we had the correct Cressida. I am so excited to get mine - and cant wait to see them start growing and wait for that first bloom! I have a rose called Peach Silk that a few people were interested in a few years ago. I sent cuttings to a couple of people but they didn't survive. Wonder if Hortico would be interested in growing it? I still [and will always] think longingly of Vintage Gardens and the enormous variety of roses they grew for sale. It would be wonderful if Hortico could be a repository for these roses from people who would send them cuttings of these rarieties to propagate for sale. How wonderful to have Cressida on the market again!!!

Judith

Hello Thistle Grower,

I got my plant of The Reeve from Pickering Nursery long, long ago, so mine was a grafted plant. It was very vigorous with long, thin arching canes and grew to about 7 feet, though that was in a zone 4 garden where it was cut back by at least half each winter. So I cannot say how The Reeve will perform own root, but suspect it would do just fine. For zone 5, grafted should be just the ticket anyway.

R

Hi Judith,

Yes, I seem to recall old posts where you and John had some discussions about the fact that you didn't think you were sent the right variety when you ordered Cressida. In fact I vaguely recall that he knew from the forum that I had a mature mother plant and that was why he contacted me. So we have John to thank as much as myself and Hortico for putting her back in commerce.

The problems with getting phyto-sanitary certificates, etc. to send bud wood from the US to Hortico in Canada, would almost certainly preclude the possibility of sending rare plants from south of the border to them. That is sad because they certainly seem to have an interest in keeping rare roses in commerce right now. So, you might approach some of the specialty rose nurseries in the US with respect to your Peach Silk.

I have grown a few of John Clements roses in the past, there is a retail nursery on Vancouver Island that used to stock some. Mr. Clements was another fine hybridizer and it is a bit surprising to me that the current owner's of Heirloom Roses do not still sell his introductions.

One last thing, does anyone have, or know of a source for the old Austin Rose Allux Symphony. I have been trying to find a plant or plants of that rose for many rears. RVR listed it, had a photo of it, but the rose they sent me was a pink German HP called Symphony. Any leads on a source would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers, Rick

The original "Cressida" that John and discussed had huge long canes, was very very thorny and never bloomed no matter what I did. Finally John helped me conclude that it was not Cresside and Hortico replaced it. I have a much more manageable plant in a pot that has given me some Cressida looking blooms so plan to plant it soon. It is not nearly the monster the first rose was. I want to compare it to the real Cressida I have coming. Is John still actively growing roses? Havent seen him post in awhile. He was so gracious in answering my questions. And you, Rick, have been a great source of information! Wish I could help you with A. Symphony! I too think its a shame Heirloom doesn't stock Mr. Clements' roses. They are good roses; thankfully some are sold elsewhere.

Judith

Hi Judith,

Thank you for your kind words. All of us on the forums contribute to the passion that is roses. When I moved back west, sadly I left behind my large collection of roses, Austin's and others. I am down to 17 plants that I managed to bring west bare root and have ordered 3 more for delivery in April. But I no longer have the room for a large garden like the one I had in Ontario.

I am not certain, though quite hopeful, that John is still growing roses, and perhaps still checking in to look at the forum. We exchanged some emails for a while a few years back, but I have lost touch. I know he is now retired, he was a plant breeder for a large corporation, as well as a knowledgeable rosarian and likely, as am I, one of the most avid early Austin fans on this forum.

The last time I corresponded with him, was almost exactly two years ago. He included a chart with 106 David Austin rose varieties that he was currently growing in that email and had plans to acquire quite a few more. He listed quite a few that are out of commerce, including the rare and lovely Allux Symphony, Claire Rose (1986), Prospero, Cymbeline and others. So somewhere in the Central Valley of California, is likely a fabulous collection of David Austin English Roses. I truly hope that both John and his roses are thriving. Best wishes John if you read this.

Cheers, Rick

Hi Rick and Judith,

I don't frequent the forums as much as I used to: have too much going on outside with fruit trees, roses, perennials, etc. But I do check in from time to time.

I am still happily growing roses in the Central Valley, including many of the older David Austin roses, including healthy specimens of 'Cymbeline' (from Rogue Valley Roses) and 'Allux Symphony' from Heirloom Roses. I was told by Heirloom Roses that I got the last specimen of this variety that were ever going to sell, which may have been the last one for sale in North America. Its truly a pity, as it is a very attractive rose that grows vigorously on its own roots in California. I have acquired a few more Austin roses, up to 112 now, but most are newer Austin roses.

The specimen of Cressida sent to me from Hortico, turned out to the be real deal. Judith, I hope yours is also the true variety. I had 3 Cressida plants 2 houses ago, when I lived in the Santa Clara Valley, which grew into strong plants that were around 5.5 ft. high and 3 to 4 ft. across. I had them in the ground for at least 5 years, and they never threw long 'octopus arms' as some of the other Austin roses did. But the fragrance is distinctive, so I knew from the time the first bloom on the Hortico plant opened, that I had the real deal. When we moved back to CA, we found a home on an acre lot that had too little gardening space-the majority of the space was occupied by the footprint of the house, a private road with a huge cul-de-sac, sidewalks, and pool. Fortunately there was a vacant lot next door that we were able to purchase and new we accommodate more roses and other plants. I rooted 4 Cressidas last winter and need 2 more for a group planting, so we have 'stuck' a number of cuttings.

I have encountered another individual on this very forum who is also has a passion for the older and rarer Austin roses, Susan Lyell. She is starting a company in Nashville, TN called 'Restoration Roses' (https://www.restorationroses.com/) . She came to CA in summer 2017 and was collecting rose cuttings from a number of sources, including the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden and was able to get cuttings of many rare roses including rare Austin roses and rare OGR's. We have corresponded and I sent her my list to see if there were any that I had that she would like for her collection. I have already sent her 6 cuttings each of 25 or so of these older English roses. I will be sending her cuttings of even more (including Cymbeline) this spring. She is establishing mother plants, so it might take her a year or two before she may have inventory to sell. Cressida and Allux Symphony were in the first group I sent. Hopefully, her new enterprise will be able to keep these older treasures from extinction.

All the best,

John

John,

Good to hear from you. Also great to know that a new rare and OGR specialty nursery is opening and that you and the SJHG are supplying the owner with bud wood for rare varieties.

The Cressida mother plant that I brought from Ontario to my new home in the west did not survive the shock of the move. I have a very small own root cutting that I struck a couple of years ago, but thus far she is not doing much more than surviving. So I am very happy that Hortico, you and now Ms. Lyell have saved her from extinction.

I have bookmarked Ms. Lyell's website and will send her an email to beg her for a couple of plants of Allux Symphony. As you know, I have been trying to score that rare treasure for at least a decade with no success. Did you get a plant of The Reeve from Hortico? You mentioned you wanted one.

Thanks for giving us an update on your doings. Did you get my email this morning?

Cheers, Rick

Rick,

Thank you for introducing The Reeve, it is lovely as well as Cressida. I was able to purchase The Reeve for this spring and am looking forward to seeing and smelling those pretty blooms in my own garden. The above comments have been very interesting and informative, I'm glad I caught the conversation.

Best Regards,

Nola

Thank you Virginia for the lead! Awaiting arrival of The Reeve and looking forward to it's beauty!

Rideauroselad, now that this thread got revived, I can thank you for introducing me to The Reeve. I got a very small bare root plant from Hortico in November 2016. It grew well, and produced a few flowers, though I took off most buds to let the plant grow. I am hoping for more growth and flowers this year, there was hardly any die-back. I love it.

You are most welcome gdineontarioz5. I am most happy that some of my favorite old English Roses will continue to be grown after my Ontario garden is no more. I do very much love The Reeve and the flower image above makes me both happy and sad. If you live in Eastern Ontario, I think he will do very well for you, enjoy.

@rideauroselad OkanaganBC6a you will be pleased to know that California John has shared The Reeve (among others) with me here in PDX, and while it is still a young plant from a two year old cutting, the blooms are gorgeous and the fragrance superb. No disease here in PDX (which is astounding). I’ll be happy to share cuttings of mine when it becomes large enough. I might be the only one around with it at the moment!

PDXRobertz8 I'd like to be on that list if you don't mind! Mine didn't make it that first year and I haven't been able to find it again.

@Nola z5aWI absolutely! Let’s see if it gets big enough this year to do it.

Thank you! That would be wonderful and very kind of you!