Let me try again....sorry.

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May be a lack of magnesium.

Here is a link that might be useful:

Any experienced U.S. grower would recognize this as mosaic virus. I suspect whoever answered from Austin USA is deliberately misleading you.

Here is what magnesium deficiency looks like on roses. It starts on the bottom leaves and gradually moves up the stem. I had some this year for the first time, probably because I limed 20 years ago with Dolomite and the Mg from that has been used up. I applied epsom salts and it stopped spreading.

Here is a link that might be useful: Mg deficiency

That illustration of magnesium deficiency is interesting, but it is NOT what Mary Rose's bush has.
What she sends images of is pretty typical of virus.

And that interests me!

We have one Golden Celebration that came from Hortico long before the rose was int. in the U.S. It's on multiflora (which is not great here) and so goes chlorotic from time to time, but it is otherwise a huge, healthy plant.

We have 4-5 additional GC's, which came from Arena, and are budded on Huey. These plants must surely be virused, but they have never shown a sign of it in all the many years they've been here. HOWEVER, they are not as big as the original rose, and don't bloom quite so much.

I wonder if what we see here is a different virus from the one in the Arena plants -- or whether it's just different conditions.

In any case, if they told you that was a deficiency, they either weren't qualified to answer questions, or they were, er, hedging the truth.

Jeri

The answer from DA is outrageous, and the matter ought to be pursued upward.

These are the exact same photos that I sent to David Austin and the reply I got was from Amanda Sanders. Here is her reply:

In review of the photos it does not look like rose mosaic virus. It looks like you need to feed them.
Thank you for your interest in David Austin Roses!
Best Regards,
Amanda Sanders
CSR, US Office
David Austin Roses Ltd
15059 State Hwy 64 W
Tyler TX 75704

I replied to her how I fed with Alfalfa tea and aged manure GC and my other 75 roses and this was the only one doing this. She then replied with:

It really looks like a deficiency in Magnesium.
Thank you for your interest in David Austin Roses!
Best Regards,
Amanda Sanders
CSR, US Office
David Austin Roses Ltd
15059 State Hwy 64 W
Tyler TX 75704

I am wondering if I should call them and ask to speak to her supervisor.

I also should let you know that I got Tea Clipper and it died...dead to the ground...never put out any growth and I asked for a replacement next spring. I sent them a picture of it with their tag on it as proof. Amanda sent me an email saying they would give me a replacement... if I gave them my full name and billing address...which I did.

OK -- Personal opinion --
I think that answer is RUDE.
If the rose were mine, I'd get the @#$%#@! plant tested. I might get more than one plant from them tested.

If a valid test confirms the presence of virus, I would present it to them.
If they then refuse to acknowledge the problem, I would make that public.

I have heard, in the past, that there is less concern about virus in the UK -- that they don't think of it as a problem. IF that is true, it may be that Austin US also doesn't worry about virus?

I know for a fact that a "mother plant" of 'The Dark Lady,' which Heirloom purchased directly from Austin in England, was virused.
Since that rose was virused, surely others may be.

Jeri

Oh, what Jeri said. That is ridiculous. I don't think I have ever seen a more typical picture and that was a blatantly rude and condescending response you got from Austin.

My first thought on viewing the pictures (which I did before reading much of the post's text or comments) was, "Oh, that's got rose mosaic virus."

A nutrient deficiency?

Not my first guess by a long shot!

A nutrient deficiency?

*** NOT IN THIS LIFE.

Jeri

"In review of the photos it does not look like rose mosaic virus. It looks like you need to feed them."

I would hope that the person from David Austin who replied with that was simply ignorant about RMV, otherwise we'd have to conclude that you are being told an untruth, intentionally, to shut you up. Neither is acceptable, but the latter is far more egregious. If I were you, I'd get the plant tested and share the test results with DA Roses. I think we all know what the test results will show: that is a virus, plain and simple.

Paul Barden

I just got off the phone from DA and they are willing to replace the rose in the spring. (which is good, because it is way too hot here). I spoke to Amanda and got her to pull up Gardenweb and this thread to see my pictures. She said that since the veiny-ness didn't show up she didn't think it was rmv, but for me to re-send my info and they would replace the rose.

I am glad I took the time to call her and she was very nice to me on the phone. I am going to continue to watch this rose and if it continues with those horrid color leaves...then it is going to the trash bin.

I want to thank you all for your time and opinions in helping me to get this matter resolved. I did think about getting the rose tested, but I would have to send it to University of California and it would cost more than the price of the rose to get it tested.

Again, thank you all for your help and support.

Mary

> if it continues with those horrid color leaves...
> then it is going to the trash bin.

*** Mary, it is almost certain that the discolorations will disappear as the year goes on.
You generally see them early in the year, and disappearance of the evidence does not mean that the disease is gone.
It will NEVER be gone.
The plant is infected in budding.
Either the budwood or the rootstock is virused (or both). It is not "curable."

And it is spread-forward, because the cuttings from each crop's rootstock are rooted to make the next year's rootstock plants.
Thus, the disease is perpetuated and spread.
===================

I once remarked to Clair Martin that I wished my two 'Altissimo' were not virused.

He said: "Why are you sure they are virused?"
I said: "Because they came from *.* Company."
He said: "Oh, yeah."
If a grower is using virused rootstock, all of the roses grown on that rootstock will be virused.

(And yes, the Altissimos gave me many opportunities to photograph leaves with those characteristic markings.)

Jeri

Agdia in Indiana is world famous for checking plants for plant pathogens. The list of pathogens, the tests and the how to are on their website.

This, from DA USA, is why I was distressed to hear that all patented DA roses in two years would be coming from DA. About a decade ago, I tried to address the RMV problem with them after I saw so many virus symptoms on the Austins I got from Park Wayside. I got the brush off.
I'd like to think that they are more careful now in choosing who propagates their plants and the quality of the rootstock they put them on.
The problem is IF they use infected rootstock then the rose will not be as strong, will not last as long, and cannot be cured of the malady that their producer caused.

Here is a link that might be useful: Agdia

I know somebody who three years ago received a rose from DA Texas that had RMV, but I have ordered from them in the past and have never had a problem. I would think that a nursery representing DA in the USA would be very careful about keeping this problem under control, but using Dr. Huey for their roses here is rather ridiculous considering how much infected stock there is out there.

Not seeing signs of virus is NOT an indication that it is not there.
You cannot be sure of that without a test.

DH and I were just discussing our 'Baronne Prevost.'
She's been here close to 20 years, and I've never seen virus symptoms on her.
BUT I know that we got the old girl from Roses of Yesterday and Today.
Thus, I know she is virused.

We had our ROY&T Reine des Violettes here for exactly 20 years, when it finally showed visual signs.

So, never assume it's not there, just on the basis of not SEEing it.

Jeri

I have a Sunsprite that I bought at a local nursery this spring that looks like that. If is is RMV, can it spread to other nearby plants? If not, and I want to keep it, do I do anything to it?
Thanks.

Yes, it probably is RMV.
No, it's very unlikely that it will spread to other plants, unless you have them stuffed into the same pot or something.

It will probably do just fine, tho its vigor, and/or ability to tolerate difficult conditions may be somewhat impaired.
I know of a huge bed of perhaps 30 of them that have been trucking along in the municipal rose garden here since 1994.

Remember that, if signs of RMV become visible in a plant, it will be more commonly in spring than other seasons, and most likely when the plant is under stress.

Jeri

DH and I were just discussing our 'Baronne Prevost.'
She's been here close to 20 years, and I've never seen virus symptoms on her.
BUT I know that we got the old girl from Roses of Yesterday and Today.
Thus, I know she is virused.

BINGO!!

My Salet comes from there, back in the late 1980's.

Yes, it's virused. RMV only shows in the leaves during the spring flush, and it's a tough old bird.

Nonetheless, every spring the new growth flush has RMV symptoms.

Unless the (Yankee) propagator is a fanatic about cleanliness (and especially so about RMV), every time the weather is warm enough for a growth flush, but not cool enough for RMV symptoms to show you will not see the propagator's slipshod quality.

Otherwise? You'll never really understand why your rose seems to grow & bloom more weakly than it should.

Otherwise? You'll never really understand why your rose seems to grow & bloom more weakly than it should.

*** PREE-CISELY!
(And you acquired your Salet about when we acquired our Baronne and our Reine des Violettes, and a number of other roses that are No Longer With Us.)

I THINK that, in Francis Lester's day, the roses were propagated on their own roots, from cuttings he collected here and there in CA.
Some of his attributions may have been "iffy," but there probably wasn't a virus problem.
But after his death, when the nursery passed into other hands, propagation was moved out of the immediate area.
I can understand that. It was a great place to live, but not a good place to produce roses!
In the '80's, when York and I bought from them, ROY&T roses were being raised by a contract grower, budded on Dr. Huey.
And so, they were virused.
Big deal!
ALL of the roses available at that time, pretty much, were virused.
That's why subsequent vendors have reached back to later collections of historic roses, which tested clean.
=============

Well and good. Roses were infected with virus when no one KNEW better.
BUT to take newly-created cultivars, and infect THEM, by knowingly budding them to virused rootstock?
Gaaaaaahhhhh . . .
That's just WRONG!

Jeri

I do not propagate roses, so I am not worried about whether or not I will spread the virus to someone I may share my roses with.

Jeri - The reason why I said I would wait to see if it keeps ups before I decide to trash the rose, is strictly based on putting up with ugly leaves and weak bloom. I have 3 other GCs so it is not like it is the only one I have and I'm attached. It is just that it is in my new flower bed and I don't want to pull it up without a replacement. And it is so hot here...it will have to wait til fall. I did get a Shropishire Lad from Roses Unlimited a couple of weeks ago...during their end of season sale, but I don't even want to plant that one yet. It is in a pot getting morning sun and shade from the hot afternoon sun.

Unless the (Yankee) propagator is a fanatic about cleanliness (and especially so about RMV), every time the weather is warm enough for a growth flush, but not cool enough for RMV symptoms to show you will not see the propagator's slipshod quality.

Otherwise? You'll never really understand why your rose seems to grow & bloom more weakly than it should.

(Apologies for the double post!)

Of all the dozens of RMV roses I have bought before I knew what I was buying, the Elena's are the only roses that are still in my garden, that I know have the disease but are doing well enough to hold onto. I have several and in early spring they all show the signs but by hot, hot weather there are no signs on the foliage, and the plants are huge. I am pretty sure at some point they will start waning, and once they do, I will regretfully part with them as they are my favorite rose for repeat bloom and lack of fungus, etc.

" The reason why I said I would wait to see if it keeps ups before I decide to trash the rose, is strictly based on putting up with ugly leaves and weak bloom. I have 3 other GCs so it is not like it is the only one I have and I'm attached. It is just that it is in my new flower bed and I don't want to pull it up without a replacement."

If all of your 'Golden Celebration's came from the same source, and one of them displays virus symptoms, then it is very likely that all of them are infected, you just might not know it yet. If I were you, I wouldn't get too "attached" to the other three either.

A friend bought eight plants of a spreading white rose to cover her front entrance where the highway deparment had cut down to widen the highway. Being a good rose person, she and her husband emended the clay and put the plants on drip.
The highway or utility folks had reason to run something underground and took up one of the roses, did their thing, and replanted it, not putting it in the TLC conditions she had made. And about a month later, all the leaves on that one plant were showing the zig zag mosaic pattern. Stress is the difference in your and my part of the country. When a rose is stressed, often the pattern will show.

FWIW, none of them spread as widely as they should have, but the puniest remained ole' yellow leaf.

(A recent paper out of UCDavis did report root to root transmission by root grafting naturally onto adjacent roses of RMV. In a closely planted bed of Dr. Huey rootstock it happened in six months. More studies are being done and haven't been published yet.)

Trospero, I got the golden celebrations from different places and they are 2 and 3 years old. One is from J&P..grafted, the others were from Chamblees. So I think those are pretty safe.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't J&P still budding onto 'Dr. Huey'?

very interesting discussion, thanks.

Jeri, you make a great point that just because you don't have visible RMV signs does not mean it's a clean rose if Dr. Huey rootstock is involved. It's disconcerting to think the signs of it can show up twenty years later. What a plague RMV is in the world of roses!

This week I ran into the owner of one of the nurseries mentioned above at S.J.H.R.G. He assured me although he does keep a garden collection of rosebushes that were budded onto r.m.v. infected rootstock, he no longer uses that rootstock on his sales inventory rootstock.
He said that some people expressed outrage that he still keeps a collection of such plants on virused rootstock (not the one he sells) and I replied "it isn't like the r.m.v. virus is going to run across several yards of soil and infect another rosebush"
Or can it?

Lux.

When last I discussed the question with Keith Zary, he said that they (J&P) were moving to own-root, for economic reasons.

But that was before the company was sold. NOW? I have no clue what they're doing. I'm not buying roses there anyhow.

FWIW, if I REALLY want a rose, I am willing to grow it virused, if I cannot have it any other way.
HOWEVER, remember that, because of gophers, we must grow our roses in squats in the ground.
I'd bet that, grown that way, the chance of root-graft is greatly reduced.

As far as our 20-y-o Baronne Prevost goes, I am thinking hard about removing it, and replacing it with "Linsley Plot Quartered Pink," (a Cemetery clone) which I gather is B.P. This one, I suspect, has a reasonably good chance of not being virused.

Jeri

Jeri

It is sad that a prestigious name like Austin US does not have an adequate QA system and is now spreading RMV through his own named roses and distribution system and employees not trained enough to recognize a threat to their long term security.

No excuses in my books - time the old man made a visit to set things right as they gone wonky in the US ... hate to find out dollars and cents and the usual short term gain with long term pain routine is starting again.

> time the old man made a visit to set things right

*** I gather that he has been unwilling to visit the U.S.

Jeri

There are many different strains of RMV. Your rose has a particular strain that doesn't show veining. The employee at DA may have truly been uninformed as to the different ways that RMV can be characterized on leaves.

The way she answered your questions is the way they are trained to respond. Don't blame her, blame the company. Short and sweet, that's how they are taught to reply.

Your rose has RMV. However, you are in zone 7, and it's a vigorous rose (once it gets going...) It's up to you to keep it and see how it does...

So are all DA roses grafted onto Dr Huey? And is all Dr Huey virused? I am wondering about the likelihood of my new plants being virused...although their vigor speaks otherwise, so far...amazing plants, best I have ever grown....

Remember, I have 4-5 Golden Celebrations on virused Huey.
They're fine, tho surely smaller than the ONE that is probably not virused.
This is in very, very mild coastal Southern California.

Greenhaven -- It would be good to confirm that what I heard is true (or not)
-- that Austin America roses are grown on Huey by a contract grower (I gathered, in Arizona.)
If that's not true, it would be good to know that it is not.
So -- we have seen several reports of virused plants from that source.
If that is not true, it would be good to know the true facts, yes?

This is particularly important if, as reported, it is true that they will be the ONLY source
for many Austin cultivars.

Jeri

In zone 7 you may (sort of borderline) have to be concerned with possible spread, see the following thread: http://www.cfp.ca/cgi/reprint/53/10/1712

Here is a link that might be useful: do spread studies in hot climates apply to cooler climates?

It isn't Dr. Huey per se, it's the practice of grafting on rootstock grown from cuttings rather than seed. This can be done with a low incidence of virus, but only if you are very careful. Virus-indexed Dr. Huey is available from UC-Davis.

Growers around Tyler, Texas, used to graft on multiflora cuttings, and I'm sure they did their share of spreading mosaic virus.